S 2 Ep 40: Culture Isn’t an Accessory - It’s the Foundation featuring Josh Hart

Speaker A: Well, hello, my wonderful office workplace warriors, and welcome back to another episode of Dear HR Diary by manage with heart. The unfiltered truth you wish you learned in management school. I'm gonna change it to just say the stuff that you wish you learned, period. Kind of thing in school that teachers don't teach. So always fun. My title. This tagline has been so much fun, and I love it every time I talk about it because it's so true. Every time I get to interview new guests so I do more research or anything fun that I get to learn the cool stuff. And today is no exception to the rule because I have a fabulous guest on the pod, and he is no relation. His name is Josh Hart. That is no relation to Don Hart, which I think is awesome.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Go. Yeah.

Speaker A: He is passionate about empowering individuals and organizations to reach their full potential. What a great first line for him. He is the founder of Joshua Hart Consulting. He has dedicated his career to helping businesses transform their company culture, ignite motivation, and drive lasting success. With years as an experienced motivational speaker, he has had the privilege of inspiring audiences across various industries. And when we're talking culture, it is across every industry. He is dynamic, thought provoking, and insightful and leaves a lasting impression on you, which is always cool. Um, he likes to motivate people to help overcome challenges, embrace growth, and achieve peak performance. Welcome to the show, Josh.

Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. I always feel like when you say motivational speaker and dynamic, I had to be way more energized. I'm usually a pretty, like, mellow person. I stay at about a 5 most of the time. So I'll try to. I'll try to spice it up for the podcast for you.

Speaker A: No worries. No worries. Yeah, I'm, like, always at like a level 10. And then when things are done, I, like, my social battery is, uh, dead, and I have to go find a place to, like, recharge. So it's kind of funny. I totally get that. But I also work in hr, so I feel like I'm on all the time. And so when I get home, I'm definitely exhausted. Especially if there's any type of stuff that's going on now.

Speaker B: That's one of the things that my team will say about me is that if I. They ever see me higher than like, a seven, then something's really happening. There is something that is going on that is a major, A, uh, major thing. I stay right around five, six, uh, we land a giant account. Like, oh, that's really good. Let's get it done. And you know, the biggest account we have leaves like, scroll. We'll get another one. Let's just, you know. So nothing's ever really big or really low. I try my best to stay right in that middle zone. So.

Speaker A: Oh my gosh. I'm envious of anybody that's like that. I'm usually really high. High. That sounds really bad. Especially. I'm not like that. Okay. It's not like, um, I'm. This is a. I don't even call this a family show because it's not really a family show, but. Oh my gosh. So Josh is a, like, crisis, uh, conflict, um, loves to talk about all things communication. Um, he does great PR work. Tell me about that.

Speaker B: Yeah, I used to say I was a conflict management specialist and that's what I would do. I would travel around from people to people. Every once in a while I would get called in to, uh, help with mass layoffs and those kinds of things. But I didn't love doing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, but what I like to do is kind of come in and help people reimagine how they think about their company, reimagine their org structure, how they do. Uh, you know, it makes, you know, where they, where they see weak people. Maybe they're not seeing weak people, but we're seeing weak pockets of community, of communication where people feel isolated.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And so they're not a part of the tribe, if you will.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so kind of coming in, helping, seeing those things. And so now I realize that people don't want to hire a conflict specialist. They didn't have to admit that they're in conflict. So they do hire people called Strategic Communications, the exact same thing, which, uh, is a fancier title put on it. So I do a lot of strategic communication for people where I come in and I'm kind of an armchair quarterback. Uh, and I help them day in, day out, um, how they structure their things. If they make a big blunder and half their team's turning on them, uh, then they give me a call, I come in, I do a whole presentation with the team. I do, um, I do stay interviews and I kind of get all this stuff kind of pieced back together, get everybody on the right track and get everything going again.

Speaker A: Do you see, like, companies really struggle? And I'm sure since you get brought in, you're probably at this point, but do you see that companies really struggle kind of getting their arms around what their culture truly is in their organization?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's either One of two things. It's either they've totally missed the mark, and they went out and bought ping pong balls, uh, for the ping pong table and foosball kits, and we do free beer Fridays. And, yeah, they think that's what makes a good culture, and it doesn't, um, or it's, um, they haven't thought about it at all, and they go, hey, you know what our culture is? People that want to be a dog on the bone and go out there and get the job done, where we. We're. We're all family here. And it's just one of those deals that, you know, we'll fight, we'll make up, and we're all, you know, and, like, it needs to be. The big word that I use a lot is not big word, but the word I use a lot is called intentional. And you need to make sure you're being intentional with everything that you do. And so, like, one of the big blunders that I, uh, got called in on, it was really a large company. They were, uh. They're probably almost 2, 000 employees nationwide.

Speaker A: Good size.

Speaker B: Yeah, good size. Not nothing, but they. The office I got called into was the guy that ran one of their. One of their areas. He has about 400 people in under his employee. And, uh, some of the employees wanted Martin Luther King Day off, and they didn't have that day off. And so he goes, you know what? Okay. And so he called in every, uh, employee of color, uh, into his office one by one, and they all had a lineup outside of his office, and he called them by one to tell them that they got Martin Luther King Day off. Uh, and then all the other employees that weren't of color, uh, got President's Day off. And, Tavis, the team did not react well to that at all.

Speaker A: Yeah, as an HR person, I'm looking at you like, what the.

Speaker B: Like, I don't know how. I don't know how that got past hr. I think he just, like, decided to, like, go for it and see what happened. Um, and so their HR department was like, this has gotten way out of hand. Uh, and they. Okay, we're. So, they. They. They had. They had heard about me or they had seen me speak somewhere. So they. They called me in, and we had to kind of basically sit down and had a full, full company meeting. Admit that although the intention was there to do. Right. The execution was abysmal.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and so he took full responsibility. He apologized. I understand. I was trying to do this because clientless people were wanting this and I didn't want to seem unfair. So he got in this spiral where he way overthought it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But by the time he was able to like, come to a decision and he talked to no one else about it, because they're really, it's really important to kind of like have a small group around you in HR that you can go, hey, this doesn't sound right. Am I, am I, am I interpreting this in the wrong way? And someone can go, hey, that does seem kind of weird to me. Let's. Let's run up the flagpole and just make sure. And a, uh, call to Don. We're would have stopped that immediately.

Speaker A: Like, not a good idea.

Speaker B: Yeah, just do one or the other. Uh, hey, you know what? Um, how about just give him a

Speaker A: floating holiday and let him pick up.

Speaker B: Yeah. So. But again, so that's usually what happens. Usually people I deal with, they. They have made an accident by just opposition, not thinking it through all the way. And it rubs people the wrong way because they feel like they're being isolated or not thought about, not cared about. And so it's a, uh, it's a problem that happens in a lot of companies all over the place, because the CEO is really thinking about, nine times out of 10, about the bottom line, big products coming through next quarter, what, what Q3 looks like. AM I going to make, Am I going to make my money in. Am I getting my. How's the bonus structure? You know, and that's where, that's where their head is most of the time. Um, and so when they. Someone comes along, goes, hey, I want this day off. And they go, oh, yeah, yeah, sure. And then for everyone else, we'll give them this day off. And then you line people up so that they can say how great you are as an employer, that they're getting a day off. Just the whole thing, execution all the way down. This was just a horrible, horrible plan. So those are the kind of things that I once, I enjoy. I love coming in and being able to solve those problems.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, again, it's kind. That's that culture delivery. Right. So it's. We're sticking our head in the sand and.

Speaker B: Or, yeah, yeah, yeah, you stick your

Speaker A: head in the sand or you do some major thing. And again, 10, 15 years ago. Culture. Culture has always been a hot topic, but I think it's becoming more and more, um, prevalent. People are talking about it a lot more. Social media obviously has an impact on it. You can turn on, tick Tock. And somebody's talking about a toxic culture that they, in their workplace place. Or you can, um, you know, look at an Instagram story. I hope I said that right. I hope my daughter doesn't say, mom. It's called a real, um, you can look at someone's Instagram story and you know, they're complaining about what a terrible work environment they're in. And so it's just a lot more a, uh, bit of a hot topic nowadays and people are really speaking up towards it.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think social media, you're right, social media changed that a lot because I think before when you were working your job, you figured everyone hates their job. That's why they pay you to do it. It's not supposed to be fun. I'm not supposed to feel appreciated. I get appreciated every other Friday when, when the check comes in.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And that's how that's supposed to work. Got it. Okay. And then social media comes up and you see people who are having fun, they're engaging, and it kind of makes you want to like, look through the window and go like, hey, why, why aren't they miserable all the time and what's happening? And I think that's when, that's when employers started to realize that not only is culture important, it is now a hiring tool that we can use. Um, and some, I think intentionally misuse it for evil. And they go, hey, if we put a breakfast, lunch and dinner and Laundromat and apartment complex inside our Google offices, they never have to leave and we'll get 18 hours of work out of them, uh, instead of the, the eight or nine, because they never have a reason to leave. We provide all the necessities that keep them alive in one space and we just let them code forever. Um, and that was definitely intentional. That wasn't a we're trying to be nice to you. It was a if we keep you happy, you stay here longer kind of a thing.

Speaker A: So that's so interesting if, I mean, even if you think about it. So that, that leads me to believe. And I, and I talk about this a lot. And those of you that um, follow me on um, on the podcast know that I talk about generations and my passion for generations in the workplace. And so now for the first time, I think in history, we actually have five actual working generations. Um, the silent generation is definitely phasing out. And those are like your Walmart creators that you're not seeing very much or your volunteers at the library, or that your docents at, ah, museums that kind of stuff, but they are in the workplace. And then you still have a rather large population of baby boomers, believe it or not, that are in the workplace. And some of that Covid, you know, I hate saying the C word, but covet delayed a lot of baby boomers retirements because, um, there was all these statistics that showed these baby boomers were going to start retiring between 2017 and 2025. And it hasn't really quite come to fruition like people thought it was because the majority of these baby boomers are hitting their 60s and they're starting to get Medicare and their um, Social Security and everything that comes into play. But what they have found is the recession, the um, terrible Covid that delayed it. So you still have a lot of those baby boomers in the workplaces. Um, um, and some of us, like, I'm a Gen Xer, I'm a little resentful because I just, you know, I want my mom to retire and you know, go do her job so I can like step into the next leadership role. So there's a little bit of resentful resentfulness if you will. And then you have the millennials and then the Gen Zers and now we're starting to get the Gen Alpha group. But they all communicate differently. So it's very much like you're going to have this conflict in the workplace. And you just said it. You know, Google put in all this cool stuff which was very attractive to people that wanted to work to or live to work, which was your baby boomers. And now you have those Gen Xers and these millennials that are like, whoa, wait a minute, I don't want to do this.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think like that was, they, they did that. And I think that that was a very attractive thing when you're right out of college because it's a basically a college mindset. M. Everyone there is kind of your age. Uh, you're, you're all the things you want to do is right there. It feels cool saying you work at Google, which is a big for a lot of companies who are like, hey, I really want to recruit talent, but I don't have the name recognition for my company to go out and get top level talent because they want to go to a place where they can tell their friends I work at and have an impressive title at the end of it. And it makes everything kind of seem easier and it's kind of seamlessly flow. So to me, the generational stuff. So I did a TedX talk, uh, uh, 10 years ago, maybe eight or nine years ago, about that very thing. And how the boomers, before the big C word, as you say, um, but boomers then couldn't retire because, um, the 2008 stock market crash. And then also on top of that, they're still taking care of their millennial kids, including millennial kids, not through a failure to launch. But, you know, the average, the average income for most major cities for a millennial is you're still looking, uh, low 60s, high 50s, uh, and at least here in Dallas, I'll say that's not a wage where you can buy a house.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Uh, they get, they get married later. So there's just that level of kind of. And again, I don't say failure to launch in a negative term, but they're not doing what boomers did, which was, uh, right out of college, getting married two years from then, having a house, having kids, like starting that, starting that life plan super quick, Right. And for the millennial generation, they're like, I don't see a need to do that. So I am technically one of the older millennials. I'm 42 years old, um, so I was born in 82. So I'm right there on that little, like, cusp for that back and forth period. But my parents, I was, um, an afterthought, if you will. So I was raised, I was raised like a Gen Xer. My mom and dad are both older parents. I, I was a latchkey kid. I, uh, I was allowed to do things all by myself and figure things out on my own. And I can kind of play in both worlds really well. But it is true, I think. You know, we talk about generational conflict, and I see it over and over again. I love when I was talking to these boomer managers and they're like, hey, you need to come fix my millennial staff.

Speaker A: I love that.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's the same thing that the silent generation, we would have said about you guys back in the 60s. When you're putting flowers and gun barrels and protesting and having love inside the capital, like, it's the same. You're the same person, you're just different things and different obstacles. And what I think makes the generations different, as you well know, um, isn't necessarily the age, it's just the shared experiences.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Yep. Um, the things that came along that you never got to experience to try to explain. Even to me, I feel very fortunate that I was like, one of the last ones to get through college before social media was a real thing. Like, I had a MySpace page. But, uh, it wasn't, it wasn't a real thing that you had to, like, get back home and check in on. And where you ranked in the MySpace or Facebook profile mattered, or if no one commented on your post, then you weren't cool. Like, I didn't have to deal with any of that stuff. And so to try to talk to someone who, that is their world, it's not imaginative, that is their world. And try to talk to them as if it's not important, then you're the one that seems out of touch.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: Those things that often the hardest job I have when I'm doing that is trying to convince the managers that they're the ones that are going to have to change. Because when they were growing up, that was not the case.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Where no matter where you came from or who you were, you had to conform to the company, to their hierarchy, to the manager. And, you know, maybe you're seeing this too, but where it impacts a, um, major industry is law firms. Law firms. Law firms were set up a long time ago. Um, um, they hire 30 or 40 baby lawyers and they come and they do all the work. The junior levels do a little bit of work, the senior guys do a little bit of work, and the top guys do no work. Top guys did all the cash and it trickles. Like, it works the opposite way. And that's the way they had been for 100, I'll say, 100 years. And then all of a sudden, uh, hey, I have social media, I have a website. I can advertise, I can boost my, my prices online. I don't need to be a part of an established firm to be able to work my way up, to try to hopefully someday become partner. I just do my own thing. And I'm not buying into having to work in a seller for seven years typing away to make you guys the top millions of dollars. Nope. And they just flipped the script and they started hanging out their own shingle and going up on Google and being like, hey, I can, I can, I can do Google Ads too. When you're searching for an attorney, you're going to Google so I can be there. And even if you're getting all the top stuff and I'm still getting the, the scraps, I could survive great off scraps.

Speaker A: Right. And not having to like, uh, adhere to your structure.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Now the junior level guys are having to go down. I just came from this. Why am I having to do this again? You know, so it caused a huge problem in that structure and I'm sure that's similar to other companies as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, I've worked um, in construction, utilities, um, very kind of similar mindset when I have these people that are like, well you have to earn your, you have to earn your keep around here. You know, you have to pay your dues. And so it's very. That baby boomer. How could you, how are you going to be president when you know, you've only been here for like two years? You, you need to go in and do all the grunt work and, and this is stuff that I've seen in just about every industry. I, you know how that's not fair. She got promoted to director, she just graduated from college and it's, we're not really looking at what this person is bringing to the team. Well you, you know, I've been here longer therefore I should get the promotion. So yeah, I deal, I deal with that on a regular basis. And then even with the new managers that I train because I have a 10 module training class that I um, give to individual people that just got promoted to manager. How to be, you know, it's the mechanics of management and one of them is, you know, how do you effectively lead your team to help make you be successful? And it's, you know, I have people that are really, really good at it, that are brand new baby managers that can outpace any of my older managers that have been doing the job for an extended period of time. And it's yeah, uh, you know they just want to learn. They understand that they have to adapt their style, they have to adapt their communication and they understand that because that's the expectation that they have of their employees too. So it's ah, that in itself has been very eye openening in the 30 plus years that I've worked um, in just worked just in general, not even in hr that I've actually just ah, that, that I've worked. I started out in retail and you know, you were the little 16 year old fitting room clerk that had to check people in to go try on garments and you know, you didn't get to get to the register until you had earned your tenure. And it, it was just a very hierarchical, Hierarchical. Never say that word, very much hierarchy. Anyway, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker B: Yeah, I got there, I got it.

Speaker A: Um, and, and it was hard for those of us that are like, well I have this, I could run a cash register. Why do I have to be here for a year before I can run a cat? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. And it just is even funny to today to hear some of my older managers. This is ageism. Um, I just, this is actual fact that here some of my older managers go, well, I didn't promote that fast. How can he. She. They get to do it well because they have the skill sets that we need to move them into that role. And that does create that conflict. And that creates a, you know, quite a bit of resentfulness between my older generation employees and my younger generation of employees.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, even for me, like, I find myself. So my background, um, out of, out of, uh, college undergrad, I, I fell into a radio job. Like, I, I fell into it. And when I was doing, um, uh, internships my senior year and someone I, I drove school, school buses. And someone goes, uh, hey, do you. My son works at iHeart Media. Do you want to go be an intern? I was like, yeah, sure, I need an internship. I haven't thought about it, but yeah, sure, I'll go ahead and get that. And I, I fell in love. I fell in love with just radio in general and, and the, the wacky antics and getting to sometimes be on air. And I was in Oklahoma City and I got to be Josh, uh, the janitor on KJ103.

Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.

Speaker B: So I loved it. So I ended. I went and did back to Dallas and morning radio for 14 years. But I was one of the last people that started off in promotions. And you're handing out keychains and cuis and pencils and have three other jobs to support your radio. But it, and you know, I'm m out there doing all that stuff and then, you know, slowly but surely, hey, uh, Josh, we're doing a bit tomorrow where we're having this and this and this happened. Would you mind or hey, go put on an elephant costume and go out and try like. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And you know, I was supposed to work 29 hours and I worked six days because I wanted to be there. I only got paid for 29. I was like, I just want to be here. I'll do it for free. And you know, and they were, they had a blind, um, HR wise as far as getting that stuff. Stuff.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm sitting here like, okay,

Speaker B: uh, but you know, they were like, hey, whatever. If you're not signing in, you're not, you can't drive cars, whatever it is. But we begin to get stuff done. Um, so. But eventually that led to being on it. And then I Was on a co hosted for 14, 14 years. Loved every bit of it. But it is that like when one of my new hires comes out and they're like, well, I just, I've been here for a year and I feel like I'm ready for the next step. I'm m. Like, you know what I've had to do, you know what I physically had to do in a smelly, stinky elephant costume and how I had to degrade myself and parade around town, you know, and like, they don't get it, but they, they don't get it. And so I can't imagine they're ever going to get it because they didn't have to go through that. Times have changed. Um, and that's not how you get in radio anymore either because, um, there's just, it's just this is the way things are done and they're different and I can't, I can't expect someone to have my shared experience because they're not me. And so I, I always have to like, catch myself. I'm like, I was making 18 an hour. Like, no, 18. I was making $7 an hour. My, my in. My yearly salary was 18,000 a year.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. For me, working like, uh, literally any spare moment that I could spare, I was up there. What can I do? Where are we going? But also, it was, it was a cool vibe because all the friends, you would get concert tickets for free and you'd be going out to, knew who you were at their place because you were there all the time for the station, so you got free drinks.

Speaker A: You were the cool kid.

Speaker B: I was, I was a cool kid.

Speaker A: Wanted to be your friend. That's so true.

Speaker B: Um, but like that, that, that is the kind of thing that, you know, I have people that I meet and expect their employees to have that same design.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And I was like, you don't give them free I. With this company that you work for, whether it's a marketing company or whether it's a, you know, an accounting company. I got to meet, uh, one of my heroes, which is Dave Garol. Okay, you're not giving them a chance to meet Dave. Girl. Like, I'm not front row at a YouTube concert because I work at an accounting firm. Like, there are, there are perks that other jobs have that get you to be like, I love this thing and I'll do anything to keep doing this one thing.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Because I really love being around it and being in it and being involved with it and being creative and being fun. Um, if you're an accountant or you're whatever, feel that you're, you're a data analyst, you know, and your job is to plug in data and get stuff going and check it, you know, none of that is super sexy. You can't expect the same sort of like passion and drive. They need to be respectful. Right. They need to make sure they're doing a good job and all of those things. There's a set basis that you can say, this is what I expect. But you know, the owners that I meet want ownership mentality without ownership buying it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yep.

Speaker B: I want you to feel like you own this company, but I'm not going to pay you like you do. I'm not going to let you.

Speaker A: I'm not going to support your. Yeah. I'm not going to support your decisions or I'm not going to encourage you to participate, but I want that level of commitment. Yeah. I have these conversations with senior managers, um, a lot, uh, particularly, and it's so interesting because this is part of culture too. And one of the reasons that I started Manage with Heart was because employees, people that do a really good job at their job, they get promoted a manager and then companies don't give them the tools or resources to be a manager. And I run into it time and I, my, my colleagues and managers, everybody I talk to, and I've talked to thousands of people, but the comment is always, oh, uh, my gosh, you're absolutely right. I didn't know how to do an interview and yet everybody expected me to know how to do an interview. And I just wonder how many things I said wrong in an interview. And it's. But we don't give them the tools. So I created this, this 10 module class classes to help these managers know how to do it. But there isn't that buy in that I get from senior leaders that are like, well, they should know that. I'm like, well, how do they know that, huh? Well, I had to learn it. Well, how did you learn it? Well, I just had to figure it out on their own. I'm like, well, how frustrated were you when you had to figure that out on your own? So it's, you're right. It's just this, uh, your experience doesn't dictate what someone else's experience should look like. And it's just getting over that or as a manager, encouraging or opening your mind to other people have different experiences. They, they all brought a different set of luggage with them to get on the bus.

Speaker B: What there was exactly there was one of the companies that I was speaking with and they were, they were, again, they were having a hard time with this manager and a talented employee, um, brought a lot of revenue in. So they weren't, hey, we can't, we can't fire them. But you know, they'd been here for 10 years and they got this business, they got the manager job, came open. They, they got the manager job job. They had a horrible manager. And downgrading someone from manager to employee is a very tricky thing to do.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So, um, they're like, can you come in and look at this? See what we're not seeing? See if we're missing something because we're so close to it. And so one of the first conversations I took this guy, uh, for lunch and I was like, hey, can I tell me about your experience? And he complained the entire time about being a manager. He hated it. The experience and the responsibility. You know, when he was not a manager, he was kind of a maverick and got to do all this different, different stuff. Um, and so one of the things that I, I went back and was like, hey, not everyone who's good at their job should be a manager 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Just because you're good at your job doesn't mean you're going to be a good manager. And sometimes being bad at your job will still make you a good manager. I can't do what you can do, but I can make sure you have all the tools you need to do it.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: My job is to advocate for you, fight for you, push for you, be responsible for you. But I can do all those things. I can't go out and sell the way that you're selling. And so what we were able to do was, and it was a lot of word play, but it made everyone feel okay with it. Is we were able to kind of change up his title a little bit. So he wasn't just an account repeated. Um, but he also wasn't a manager.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I think, I think we, they didn't have this before. So we have a senior account rank. We did. He took a new role as senior account rep where he'll be the liaison and he'll help and whatever. But either way he was no longer a manager. And then putting it in that company's mindset, like you could pay him when a manager gets paid, if he's that valuable to the company.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Fine. Fine. Pays, pay. Leadership is hatership. Those are two, two separate things.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: So it's like opening and they had Never thought of that concept. The only way that you could get a raise is to take more responsibility. That was the only way they had it. And so breaking up that mindset, I think as. As a population of people would really be helpful in understanding, because some people hate managing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But I literally had someone one time who was, uh, they were calling me, I was doing a state interview, and she was like, I want to be a manager, but. And I was like, why? And she goes, I want to make more money. And I was like, making more money is the worst answer you could give to what? I want to be a manager.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: I was like, do you want to be responsible for other people's work? She's like, God, no. Like, do you want to be the one that they call when things go wrong? God, no. Do you want to. Here's all the things that happen to people who are managers. Do you want this? No. Well, so you just want more, honey? Yeah. Here's what it's going to take to get more money, more of this, have more output, have. But, you know, here's what I want to see before I can give you more funds without putting you in a manager role. And so that's. That's the path that she ended up taking. She would have been a horrible manager. Uh, she was a great employee. Would have been a horrible manager.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, just because that was her mindset.

Speaker A: And I love, like, really kind of exploring that option with people. And I think that's where that communication, that connection, that understanding what your team wants, understanding kind of what you want to do, and just, um, knowing that your experience, again, is going to be different than someone else's. Just because you want to crime the corporate ladder doesn't necessarily mean your employees want to climb the corporate ladder too. Um, you know, I'm married to a bank president. We had this conversation a lot. Um, well, we used to have this conversation a lot. He always wanted to be a bank president. That was his goal. And he. He's been a president now for six years, but was a, uh, chief living officer, was an executive vice president, you know, worked his way up the ladder and really, really paid his dues and that. He's a cusp. Baby boomer, Gen Xer. So it's like right on the lot of baby tendencies. Um, and when he, he. But he couldn't understand why I didn't want to. I'm like, I don't want to be the president of anything. Are you kidding? I'm happy doing what I'm doing. And this is the same guy that was like the president of every organization he was in, in school with, you know, sub, um, you know, Eagle Scout, kind of. It's just, that's great at him. It was very much. And I'm like, yeah, I like what I'm doing. Thanks.

Speaker B: Yeah. And, and to get rid of the stigma. There's something wrong with that.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Like, there's nothing wrong with that. I, I, that's what, like, I'll tell, Like, I, I met with the CEO who was talking and, and she was like, I don't understand how, um, I want, like all these people need to grow up and be a, be a vp. And I'm like that. So you realize that's not possible, right? You can't have this, a smaller company, like 30 or 40 employees. You can't have 30 or 40 VPs and no workers. So you're gonna have to let people go and hire. Just that mentality is like, you, you want, uh, and I, I hate using the term worker B, because it sounds like you're being derogatory, but I, I'm not. The people that just go, hey, I want to come in. I want to do what I do. I want to do it proficiently, I want to do it well, I want to get paid well for it. And I want to go home. Yes, I want, I, I want, I want 30 of those. Come with me. Here's your desk, here's your job. We're going to have a punch at 12 o'. Clock. It's catered in the cafeteria. Let's go. And that's what I would take on. I don't, and again, and you also need a person who goes like, hey, I want to grow, I want to build, I want to be in the company. But, uh, it'll take larger companies understanding that mindset before. I think the youth or younger people will be more comfortable being like, hey, I want to grow. Um, but I don't, like, I don't want to, um, be a manager. I don't want to do this, I don't want to do that.

Speaker A: So, and you're saying we're seeing more and more of that, kind of along that line. It's like you're seeing a lot more people. Gen Z, they're like, yeah, I don't, I don't know if I really want to be a manager. I mean, I saw my parents struggle with it or I saw, you know, my grandparents or whomever, um, influential role model. So I think just really understanding kind of what they want and knowing how to communicate that.

Speaker B: That.

Speaker A: Well, this has been. I've had a lot of fun, Josh.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: This is, I mean, really great and insightful having these conversations. What's, um, one little nugget that you'd like to leave with the listeners as we start wrapping things up?

Speaker B: One nugget. I'm going to go back to the beginning when I said intentional. Uh, intentional is always something that I. I drive home, um, with everyone. No matter what you're doing, what conversation you're having, whether it's separating the. The title from the salary and going, hey, they're two separate conversations, whatever it is, is making sure that you're trying your best to look at it from an open, open mind frame and seeing different things as they come along and piecing all that stuff together. I. I don't want. I don't want people to go along and say, this is how it's been done before, so it's how we have to do it now.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And even I have found, even if you're making mistakes, but your people know that you're trying your best, that goes a long way, 100%. A lot of the times when companies are in utter turmoil and I come in and go, hey, I am a company culture person who's here to try to assess what's happening and fix some things, you can almost feel like a little bit of pickup. People are still mad, they still are upset, they're still whatever. Uh, but, like, hey, they care enough to actually call someone to try. Yeah, this. This may not work. This guy may be full of it. I have no idea. But at least they're trying. And I think that's the one thing that I tried was if you're always being intentional and you're always trying your best, that goes a long way in the future.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Josh. It's been a true pleasure having you on the podcast. Uh, yeah, absolutely. Thanks to all my listeners who tuned in to another episode of Dear HR Diary by Manage With Heart. Until next time, stay fabulous.