89: Joyce Russell (Villanova / AACSB) on Negotiating Compensation

Dave Ikenberry 0:13 Welcome to Dean's Council, a podcast aimed at supporting university leaders holding one of the more critical jobs on a university campus. Your panelists, Ken Kring, Jim Ellis and davinberry, engage in conversation with highly accomplished deans and other academic leaders regarding the ever complex array of challenges that Deans face in one of the loneliest and most unique jobs in the academy. Executive coaching has been commonplace in the corporate world for some time now, being thought of by many as a mark of corporate accomplishment.

However, in academic circles, the notion of professional mentoring or executive coaching was often a taboo subject. Fortunately, that's been changing over the last decade. In today's episode, we hear from Joyce Russell. Joyce was the Helen and William O'Toole dean of the Villanova School of Business, from 2016 to 2023 Under her leadership, her college strengthened faculty research output, enhanced student programs, upgraded facilities and established programs aligned with the Villanova's Augustinian mission.

She expanded alumni efforts and employer connections with the college while driving fundraising and celebrating the school's centennial year. Today, Joyce has rejoined Villanova's faculty as dean emeritus and serves as a professor of management and operations. Of course, with any Dean who comes on our program, there's so much that we could discuss about her time as dean of Villanova. Yet that's not why we're here today, because Joyce is also a licensed industrial and organizational psychologist and executive coach.

For over three decades, Joyce served as an executive coach in the C suite. More interestingly, though, she has extended her practice over the last decade to also spend time coaching business school deans and provosts. In addition, choice has also set up a new program in collaboration with AACSB called the Dean's journey, a program intended to help Deans as they start new deanships As always, we hope you enjoy and learn from this episode. Ken Kring 2:20 Well, we're delighted to be here today with Joyce Russell.

Joyce is a former dean at the Villanova School of Business and Vice Dean of the University of Maryland Smith School of Business, previously both private and public business. School experiences in her repertoire as dean emeritus and professor at Villanova School of Business. She brings a tremendous amount of experience and insight to the role of deaning and in particular, as a licensed industrial and organizational psychologist and executive coach. There's some very interesting components of her background and experience that we'd like to explore here today.

Joyce is the lead developer the newly launched AACSB program, the Deans journey, which is a six month program offered a new and aspiring Deans having just completed the first cohort. And so we'd really love to go into some of that with you also today, Joy. So welcome. We've got lots of questions for you.

We're delighted to be with you. Joyce Russell 3:26 Well, thanks so much for that really nice introduction. I'm glad to be here to talk about this topic, and I really appreciate what you're all doing too, with the dean's council podcast. I mean, what a valuable tool, think that we all wish we could have had, but still now for helping business school deans navigate way.

Dave Ikenberry 3:45 Thank you for those kind words. Joyce, we thought as we were preparing for today's talk, we might talk about three different aspects of negotiations, something that you're pretty well versed at as we as Deans think about our jobs. So one part being when we're getting ready to sign on the dotted line to start a position. One kind of that contract renewal, and then kind of a third one relating to thinking about our exit strategy.

So we've got a lot on our plate for today. Let me throw it over to Jim and have him launch the first question. Jim Ellis 4:24 So my first question is a little bit of a statement first and then a question. But when I was brought in and asked to be the dean of my institution, it was an existing Vice Dean of the institution.

And so it really was a logical step, and it wasn't one where there was a lot of negotiation. So my question, there's two different types of individuals coming into a Dean's role. One that's an internal hire, one that's an external hire. Joyce, if you can talk a little bit about you know, how you might negotiate something as an internal hire, which is very different than negotiating as an extra.

Know, so kind of how you would differentiate those two different types of individuals coming into those roles at the end of a search? That'd be great. Joyce Russell 5:09 Yeah, Jim, that's a great question, and that comes up a lot. In fact, when I'm talking with people or coaching, because I do a fair amount of coaching with deans, I always bring up that question.

Now, are you an internal person, or are you an external person? So I'm glad you raised that the the types of questions, in one sense, are similar, but you're right. You come from a different vantage, and in some respects, it's almost easier as an external person, because there's no you weren't already making a certain salary. And so people, they don't know what you were currently making before, and you're you can easily look at sort of that external market and talk about the external market.

But I think in both cases, I think one of the things when I'm talking to people, most Dean applicants, whether they're internal or external, often don't realize is that you can negotiate, or they don't realize what is the right time to bring things up. And I also think they often get confused about when are they just asking questions and when are they actually negotiating? And so I think it's important to differentiate those. And so in either case, internal or external, I think you first have to get the offer before and ask all your clarifying questions before you can actually even negotiate.

Even if you're an internal candidate. I think that's going to be important. Jim Ellis 6:38 So let me ask you one follow up on this, and then I'll turn it over my colleagues, but relative to the offer and whatever I know it's later on in our discussion, when I think it needs to be discussed. In my particular situation, I was asked to step down for the wrong reason, but I was asked to step down.

And in my case, I had been issued a letter. It wasn't a contract, it was a letter of appointment that I served the Will the President, and that was it. So when I was asked to step down, it was up to them. They could pay my contract out or not pay my contract out, which was a bone of contention.

And they ultimately did not do that, which was not good for the reputation institution, nor was it particularly fair to me if I'm asked to step down, you know, for something that really I didn't do. So is, are these contracts the way we look at Dean's, Dean's appointments, or are they just letters? And if they're just letters, they're not very enforceable. You sign on to be a dean for five years, yet at the end of three years, you're asked to step down with nothing, no compensation going forward, because it's just a letter that you're appointed with.

Joyce Russell 7:44 Yeah, that's a that's a really good question, and that was definitely going to be something I was going to mention. So what efforts already, if you can get things in writing and even sign, even reviewed by the university's legal counsel, because in some cases, the university's legal counsel could be involved in the compensation or in the contract, not just the provost, if that's the person you're reporting to. I know we also have a number of international deans who report to a boss, but maybe not called a provost.

So so what? To whatever degree you can get something that looks like a signed contract, and sometimes the legal counsel does get involved, but you're right. I think all Deans know they serve at the pleasure of the provost and president or their immediate supervisors, and so then there's that question about how enforceable is something. But I do tell people, even when I'm doing executive coaching for C suite executives, it's really important to get things in writing as best as you can, and to have like legal counsel look over it, even from their side, Jim Ellis 8:53 are your own independent legal counsel too Joyce Russell 8:56 well that could be beneficial for you as well, because again, many people going into These roles.

This is not their background. This is not their experience. They generally come up the ranks through academia, and that's not something that we've often gotten training in. And so yes, getting their own independent legal counsel would be helpful as well.

Ken Kring 9:19 You know, there's another in my experience, is another aspect which comes into play at that moment. It'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on, you know, the fact that at that moment in time where where an offer is being made and ideally accepted, there's both a lot of goodwill, a lot of goodwill that both the candidate and the hiring authority want to extend, but then also, to your point, a necessity to get things into writing. Because frankly, the parties who are involved in negotiating in that moment may not be the.

Hiring authority may not be there down the road, so that's part of the reason you want to memorialize. But are there just sort of general ideas that you bring? Because these sometimes have to be very customized around extending the goodwill, but also, you know, getting the details that are going to be memorialized. Joyce Russell 10:22 Well, Ken, I think you bring up a great point of the fact that there's so much churn now, and there has been, but really now in terms of people serving in Provost roles and in president's roles, and so to whatever degree you can get things in writing that can help you for the future, if those individuals are gone, and the likelihood is high, they will be and so, from what we've certainly seen, and so that would be very important for, I guess, for your own protection, to get those kinds of things written down.

But I also want to just talk about when's the right time to bring any questions up about the offer, because I think people are often confused about at what point, and so I always try to tell people, really you don't want to start negotiating, so to speak, until you actually have an offer from them, at least a verbal offer that they're going to make you an offer, and frankly, wait for them to actually give you a written offer. I think sometimes people think once they get an offer, that's it, and yet, that is just the beginning of the whole negotiation process.

And so if they could wait get the offer, and then bring up their whole list of things to that they're really interested. I think that would be really interesting, and we can talk about what those things are. Because, again, I think that most people just sort of, you mentioned goodwill. They just sort of assume that, okay, well, it's all going to be done fine, and they don't think a lot of things they should be asking for.

Dave Ikenberry 11:59 So let's talk about some of those details, Joyce, and also when we think about, when we put ourselves at this point in the life cycle. We're also, you know, yes, we're thinking about things like compensation and maybe other things that we personally want to in, you know, get out of this new relationship. But we're also thinking about negotiating for our college. And so to what extent are we so when you say negotiating at this juncture, what are we talking about?

You know, me versus the institution. And then again, what are those various parameters? Joyce Russell 12:40 Yeah, I like the way you phrase that Dave because and that's how I think about it too. There's things that you're asking for that pertain to you, and then there's things that you're asking for related to the college that would enable you to be successful.

So if I think about the things for you, clearly base salary is really important. And over what time period, I do think it's really important for people to do their own market research first, just to see what the market would look like. And you can do that research. You can certainly ask your dean colleagues, but you can also do that research to see, you know what, what would be the base salary for private institution, a public institution, a religious institution, and over what time period bonuses and and, and bonuses as it relates to what, what are the metrics that are related to those so that you understand, Okay, what does it take to be successful in this role?

How will I be measured, and then, how will I be rewarded as a result of that benefits? There's a lot of different kinds of questions about benefits, about, you know, health care, dental insurance, fitness, wellness plans. I mean, there's, there's just so much that could go into health, into the whole benefits package, housing, some depending on where you live. You know, I know deans that are out in California.

I mean, it's really important that they get or wherever they're located, that if housing is an issue, that that's really important, or if it's super expensive, the obviously, the title of the position is this an endowed chair position. I assume most people would just keep that when they're Dean only. But that's a good question. Does it come with full professor with tenure?

Because these are all the things that you're also thinking about, not just this job, but the future for yourself. And you also know that as a dean, you're leading other full professors with tenure or in endowed chairs, and so you need to make sure you have the correct title. How long is the term of the contract. They're not all the same.

It's interesting, because with all the coaching I've done, some people have a yearly contract. Some people have a three year contract. Some people, I mean, I think in most cases, five years is standard, but that also depends, you know, internationally as well, review process. You know, what is the review?

Process. Like, is it? Do you have a yearly review? What are the metrics that are used to evaluate you?

And I think I always like to phrase it in terms of, so I would like to be really successful in this job. What would that look like and how would I be measured? Because I want to be successful in this job. So as opposed to, I want to make more money, so tell me what I need to do to make more money, right?

When are you up for review? If it is a five year contract, are you up in the fourth year review for the next contract? And then who's involved in that? Faculty, staff, students like, what are the metrics that will be used, or advisory board travel funds, right?

I think we all assume, okay, well, all those travel funds are included, but there's a lot of variance in schools. There's some really small schools to some very big schools, private schools, some schools that have a lot more money, some that don't. And so will you have the funds that you need, not just for your development work, but for conferences that you might want to attend. I really feel it's important that's kind of related to professional development funds, but I think it's important not to give up your identity, because we're all generally most deans, some of them do come from the outside, external world and business, but you often don't want to lose that, and so having professional development funds to be able to still do conferences and and also maybe professional development includes things like additional executive coaching that you might get.

A decade ago, people didn't really talk about that, but now it's much more common that someone could negotiate to get funds to be able to have their own executive coach. And most provosts want, you know, they want their deans to be successful, and so whether or not they pay for that, or they give them a fund to pay for it, that's you know, either way that can go graduate assistants, because some people like to continue doing research while they're deans. And then maybe, you know, what would a sabbatical look like at the end of the term?

Like? Is it a five year term, and then you get a half a year a year sabbatical with pay, whatever. But I think that's like a lot of the things that you would look at for yourself. And you all may have some ideas as well based on your own experiences.

And Ken certainly might from the other side of from the recruiter side as well. But I also think then there's the things that would set you up for success, like you said, Dave for the school, so your admin assistant, do you have one? Are they qualified? Can they be replaced?

And if so, how difficult would that be? I think everybody knows that person is really pivotal to your success, your leadership team. Who's in your leadership team? If you come with some experience, then you kind of know what you're looking for.

Like, do you need assistant deans, associate deans, directors of programs, and how difficult would it be to get people in those positions? Do you have much of a staff? How do you have funds to be able to hire people? Are you able to hire outside people that you think would be good in those roles?

And then, I love, I think it's really valuable, if you have, you know, many of us have a fund of strategic initiatives. So do you have this fund? How big is it that you can use for the things that you think are important? That could be teaching innovations, it could be for staff, professional development, it could be for extra research funds, for merit awards.

So I think those things could really as well as your development team. What does that look like? Those could be really good to help set you up for success. Maybe some of you all have some thoughts as well.

Jim Ellis 18:48 First of all, you've gone through an entire laundry list that is absolutely so thorough and so well done in terms and I think there's a couple of things. One of them hit me in particular that really we need to drill down on just a little bit that's relative to the renewal process. Now, I came into Dean's job outside academia. I mean, I had been working at USC, but I'm not an academic, so I don't really understand the renewal process at all, and kind of got blindsided by it, even though it worked out fine, and I got reviewed a couple of times, so it was okay, but, but the point is, how do you what's that like?

Because an individual coming in from the outside world never gets, never gets reviewed by their subordinates. In the academic world, you get reviewed by your subordinates. I mean, the fact you even mentioned students, you know, you think, Wait a minute, I got reviewed by students as well to get renewed. So I think that's really an interesting one, and the timing, as you say, so that's one that I think we ought to just drill down on, just a spec to understand that, because that's, that's something people need to really.

How am I going to get past year five if they want to get past year five? Joyce Russell 20:05 Yeah, I think that's a great question. I also think people, when you take the job, you don't think to even ask that question, because just thinking about the job, not the future. And so I do think that it's really important to think about the future, not just the yearly reviews, but as you're saying, Jim, that that renewal, and you might have a brand new Provost who doesn't know much about that either.

So I think it's really important to understand, what does that look like? What are the metrics? Who's involved in that? How is it done?

And is it if it's a five year contract, is it done in the fourth year, and if it's successful, what does that mean? Does that mean you set up the next five year contract, or if it's not successful, what does that mean, but, but I do think understanding who all the players are. I mean, I specifically asked to have my advisory board, you know, to get certain to survey them. And specifically asked to have my staff survey because I knew they were also a big part, in addition to faculty, to having insight into the different roles that I played as dean.

And so I think it's you have to think about sort of that whole 360 degree feedback process as well as your own sort of self review. What does that look like? But I, but I think this is, this is really important to ask a lot of questions about it. And it does seem unusual for people to ask these questions at an early stage, like when they're just starting the job.

But again, they they should always be thinking of the long term, even if they know they're not going to stay just thinking about, okay, but what if I did like, what would that look like, Ken Kring 21:51 specific to universities and perhaps unique for deans? Is a step down concept. How you know? How do you advise in terms of, you know, pre negotiating or negotiating that, you know, eventuality that is likely that a dean will step back to the faculty with some sort of, you know, extended some tenure and some sort of extended salary idea and some sort of expectations around what they return to?

Joyce Russell 22:26 Yeah, Ken, thanks for that question. That's another one that I think people don't think about a lot either, and although, although I have a preference, I like to call it stepping away, I think it's really valuable to document. I've talked to a lot of deans about this, because I think a lot of them are getting much more astute about Okay, so what does the future look like? And so maybe documenting this exit plan, when to leave, and if they're going to stay at that institution and go back into faculty, what does that look like?

So I think it's really important to look, of course, obviously, you're still looking at the salary, and what is because for many people, there's, you know, a gap between the Dean's salary and their professor's salary. And so what does that look like in terms of the salary, in terms of, I think research funds, I think are very important. If you could try to get research funds for at least five years, I would say that's great, because for many administrators, you know it's some people are still doing research, but not everybody is.

I mean, as we all know, it is an all consuming job, and so to be able to get back into research, I think you need some funds to be able to do that, getting an administrative sabbatical, if you're able to get a year at a certain salary, that really helps you, frankly, just physically, mentally, emotionally, after The exhaustion. Some people, myself, some of you all went through being Deans during covid. So that was a huge that was like extra years. And so getting that sabbatical teaching load, what will your teaching load look like?

And think about not just, what would the teaching load look like. And I think you know, it's re you want to be reasonable in terms of, okay, so what would a full professor who's doing research, maybe it's a two two load. But does it have to be a two two or could it be four courses in a semester, or maybe you negotiate less than that, or could it be throughout the year, so that you are able to build up some time off to do research. But what does that teaching load look like, and for what time period, I think the more you can get that in writing.

So if you can say, hey, for the duration of my time here, or for at least five years, that could be very helpful, because again, that next Dean comes in and or the next Provost and says, Well, I didn't agree to any of those things. So the more you have this in writing, maybe teaching, innovation, support. For graduate assistants, if you're trying to do research or even teaching. I've known some people, and I have to give them a lot of credit, that have gotten some even part time admin support.

Dave and I were talking about this once about, oh my gosh, that could be so helpful. Because, let's be honest, you're you're kind of not used to doing a lot of those things, and so that takes an enormous amount of time. So if you're able to do that, that's fantastic office space. You can't just assume people are going to give you an office.

And so that's, I mean, I think you have to almost look at, okay, so as you're going back, what would typical faculty get? But faculty? Who are, you know, full professors, or endowed chairs, or something like that, and then what title? Because if you're stepping away and you're leading a good job, do you can you get the dean emeritus title?

I think that that's quite helpful for you, but, but again, all these types of things, I'd be curious if you all have other ideas of other things that you might talk about, but I think at least some of these things and again, trying to get them in writing the best you can Dave Ikenberry 26:09 Joyce a key part of so let's go back to the beginning. I keep a key point when you're starting the job is, at least, in my humble opinion, is getting really good strategic alignment between what your values are, your strategic direction, and that of your your provost, because at some point you're going to bring in what you think the faculty strategic directions are.

But how do you get that what? How do you think about that problem, and what are you advising your clients about this issue? Joyce Russell 26:45 Yeah, I like that question because, again, I think when you're on the job search process, you don't think about those things a lot of times, and I think they're really important, because I've just talked to so many deans that didn't have an alignment and the struggles that that caused. And so understanding from the provost as well as really from the President, what's important?

What are the goals? Where is the university trying to get to? And what's the business school role in relation to the rest of the university? Is the business school just kind of doing its own thing over here?

Or do you need to be a strong collaborative player across the university? Because that is also pretty important. If it's clear to the provost and maybe even the president that it's very important that you collaborate, then, then you're going to need to spend time early on building relationships across campus with the other deans, with the other VPS, with the provost board, the President's board, or cabinets. So I think that's a really good question of, how do they view the business school in terms of the university, and are there goals for fundraising?

Did you come in during the middle of a campaign, or is there going to be a campaign in the next year or two? And what are the goals there? I don't know that everybody knows specific metrics. But I think the the more questions you can ask to try to get at those of well, what are the metrics?

Do you have goals for us? How much time do you want me to spend with alums? How much time do you how do you see my time, right? I think that's really important, because if they say, Well, I see you spending half of your time, 50% of your time, outside, externally, with alums and with our development office, that's very different than somebody who says, Well, I see you spending, you know, 20% of your time, and there's some deans who don't do any fundraising at all.

That's taken over by the president solely. So I think that's a great question, Dave, and I think understanding the role you're supposed to play as the head of the business school, and the role the Business School is supposed to play with the larger university is really important to understand and to ask about and to keep asking about. And I think every time you have that opportunity to have a meeting with your if your immediate boss is your provost, to talk about, okay, what have you done in alignment, but what else do you need to be doing?

I think that's really important. And sometimes people don't view those meetings. They sort of view those meetings as the provost telling them, but I think you have to use those meetings, view those meetings also as your opportunity to share what you've been doing and ask questions Dave Ikenberry 29:42 exactly, yeah, Jim Ellis 29:44 you know, I think that what you're saying is it's basically a pretty fluid relationship between you and the provost. And you know, for example, if there's a campaign coming up, and maybe it's a new president coming in in year three, you know they're going to start a campaign.

In year four, your year four, you know, you really do have to spend time cultivating potential donors in years two and three. And that thing changes, because, like you say, the provost changes, the president changes, and we don't have these, these people in those positions for the length of time that we used to have them. And I mean, if we look at a university president today spending, you know, he's in that role for two or three years, three or four years, and we have a provost, and she's in that role for three or four years, that's a real issue when you have a five year, a five year term to start with, because they keep changing and they fundraising needs come about.

Covid, obviously, was one that just could hit everybody. It blindsided everybody. So you're making it's just hard to have those discussions up front as you try to negotiate your deal, saying and go through all those things, because it really is a difficult thing to think about all that, because you're also on a high about the fact you're being offered a job. Jim Ellis 31:02 You think is a pretty cool job, and it is right job, but there's going to be roadblocks.

So you know, how do you get through that, in that those initial discussions and still get the deal negotiated properly? Joyce Russell 31:19 Yeah, and that's why I think it's not a one conversation. Even when I talk with executives outside of academia about that, a lot of times people think this is one conversation. And I think we all know it's multiple conversations.

So you might initially ask questions you're not necessarily negotiating. You're just trying to understand, and so you're asking questions when you finally get the offer, and then you start asking more questions, or you're trying to negotiate certain parameters. So you might get to a certain point there, but I think understanding that strategic alignment that Dave's talking about too, you might ask some questions there. But I also think once you take that job, you really have to try to make sure you're in front of your provost, at least, you know, twice a semester to be able to ask questions, to make sure you understand what the potential roadblocks could be, or what are the big things coming Up Down the road that you need to be mindful of So, so you're you're never really finished, you're always asking questions, and you're always really sharing what you've done as well.

And that's why I say those meetings are really important. Sometimes, you know, provost will think, Well, okay, I can meet you with you once a semester if you're going pretty busy, but you have to really push to try to get in front of them and be able to talk about, you know, what are the things you're doing that are sort of signs of success? But then, do you have questions about things, or are there obstacles coming up that you could use their help for? I think that's another important thing, because sometimes people don't do that because they want to sort of look like, well, we can handle everything.

But I've actually known deans who have been very successful bringing up potential problems, like they have some faculty that are really difficult to deal with, or some staff that are difficult to deal with, and they just let the provost know, by the way, here's some issues I'm facing. How can you help me with this? And or if you hear about these things, here they are. And I think that can be helpful too Ken Kring 33:27 countless insights to be mined on this topic of entry.

But I think we also may want to, by extension, talk about the transition and and specifically about coaching, early early coaching. Can Can you talk some sort of about the general, general thoughts on coaching at the first phase of a new Dean's experience? Joyce Russell 33:53 Yes. I mean, that's, that's my background.

So I do, I'm, I'm a big believer in the importance of coaching. I personally had my own coaches, which I thought were very helpful. I do think it's, it's it's important to get that coaching early, and I think it's also important to get feedback early from your own constituents. So getting a 360 degree feedback from you, some of your faculty, your staff, your own administration, people are afraid to do that, but frankly, it's in your best interest to find out what people are thinking in terms of your strengths and areas that you have to work on far better to do it early than to find out later that okay, things didn't work out right and so, but having someone who's who's trained, Who can then help you develop maybe what that 360 looks like that tool, or also can help you interpret it, and that's where I think it's and I don't know if that's a good segue to the Dean's journey, but just like what you all are doing with that, this Dean's Council podcast providing help for people because.

People often deans, as we know, it's a really lonely job, and you you really can't talk to your own people about some of these issues. So talking to others who know what you're going through is really important. And so having, even if you have a coach, having a person who not only has Dean experience, but also has maybe coaching experience, I mean, that's like an awesome combination. And so my colleagues and I think that's something that we we've been doing, because we think it's really important to be able to provide that support for people.

And I agree with you, Ken, early on is really valuable. Jim Ellis 35:35 So if you, if you summarize everything we've talked about, it's pretty tough to do. Joyce Russell 35:41 Yeah, that's tough. Jim Ellis 35:42 It's it's tough.

But on the other hand, I think you've outlined so many really terrific things that we need to think about early on, including, how do we exit the job properly the same way? I think that, you know, there's, there's a couple of things that, to me, have come out very, very significantly, one of which is all the details that are way more than salary, way more than salary. I think we need to make sure that these Deans coming in have those thoughts in mind. And then secondly, how do you get renewed?

How does that work? And thirdly, how do you exit gracefully to such a point where you want to be in that role. And as you said, you know, they haven't been research active for the five years, or the 10 years they've been in the role. They may not want to be research active.

They may look at that and say, I don't want to go back into that role. So a lot of it has to be a very good, futuristic kind of thought process. And I think your comment about coaching, and we all are available for coaching. There's no question about it, whether it's one on one or three on one or four on one, it doesn't really matter.

But, you know, let's summarize. Let me ask you to summarize, sort of the discussion we've just had as a way of thanking you for doing this. But give me a quick summary on how you would approach this new dean? Joyce Russell 37:02 Well, I think you gave a great summary there, but I thought I would say, Yeah, I mean, I think we've covered a lot of ground, and part of that is, I think it's really important to give people good, practical advice of what they can do.

So if they're thinking about this job, that's why I think learning like, if you're thinking about going into a Dean's job, then then taking programs that can help you understand, Okay, so what's involved in the Dean's job? And that's where, even, as an example, our Dean's journey program, we do have some aspiring deans in there, because people can see, okay, what's involved, and then say, Do I want to do that? Do I not want to do that? But I think it's better to get in my background.

We often talk about realistic job preview, far better to understand both the positives that you're going to get and the difficult situations that you're going to run into. As an example, this is a as we all know, it's a very visible job. And are you prepared to be under a microscope like all the time, everywhere you go, you know. So it's not just in, like the building, but then when you go out and you're in the grocery store, and when you're different places and people see you, and those kind of things.

So I think if you're thinking about the job, getting some sort of education about, there's programs on what, what do you do for fundraising, what does that look like? And so getting some education if you do take the job. I mean, we all talked about here some great ideas for the things to think about when negotiating, but then trying to get help early on. So whether it's listening to the Dean's Council podcast, which you have a whole group full of wonderful people who've given all kinds of great experiences and different topics, which I think is fabulous, whether it's going into one of the AACSB Academy programs or getting executive coaching, I think it's important to, you know, get some help early, so that you're you don't feel alone, and that you feel like you have the support, the encouragement, and that you have people you can talk to about, okay, so I'm in this situation, what do you think I should do?

And someone that's going to be honest, going to be candid and and going to be have your back and be supportive of you. And I think that's where all of these kinds of programs are really helpful. So I would say, I just Jim Ellis 39:22 want to say, thank you so much for doing this, how much we appreciate it. And as I think back on my own career, I would say, l I talked to you 19 years ago, but unfortunately, I didn't have that opportunity.

But hopefully through this, a lot of other people will have that opportunity to talk to us about this, which is why we're all doing this, and why we're so passionate about it so. Joyce Russell, thank you very, very much for joining us today. We truly appreciate it Joyce Russell 39:47 absolutely. It's been a pleasure talking with all of you as well.

And if anyone wants to reach out to me, feel free. Dave Ikenberry 39:53 Thank you, Joyce, you. Ken Kring 40:02 So what did you think about that conversation just now? Ken, well, that's really terrific.

Just so much insight, sort of around entering into a new dean role, but also sort of the early days of a new, new dean role. I think specifically, you know, Joyce's ability to talk about what can be experienced as difficult conversations, but necessary conversations with prospective new employer, new provost, was very helpful, and her checklist was, was remarkable. Dave Ikenberry 40:37 Jim, what did you think? Jim Ellis 40:40 Extremely practical, so practical and so worthwhile.

And like I said, I wish I'd had that conversation with her 19 years ago. Ken Kring 40:49 Yeah. Jim Ellis 40:50 I just think that everybody, those are the things we all need to think about. It's just basic, one on one stuff.

It was very practical and really important for all of us. Yeah, Dave Ikenberry 41:01 what I appreciated about it was some of the detail and, and I'm sure if we had another half hour, we would have gotten into even more detail. But, yeah, as you said, it's, it's pretty practical stuff, but on the other hand, it's not stuff that we think about, Ken Kring 41:17 right? Dave Ikenberry 41:17 And, and it just doesn't occur to us that just the sheer variety of the various parameters that that one could tweak or not tweak and and I think another thing that I really liked about our conversation was, and I wish we had spent just a little more time on it, was getting alignment, strategic alignment, between what you want to do and what your provost wanted wants to see done.

It's not so much that you work for the provost, but at the end of the day, you kind of do because all of these other constituencies roll into that person. And if there's not alignment there, you you're going to have a problem. And I really enjoyed her kind of getting around to that. And just as a, you know, as a short story that, you know, when I took my role at Colorado, I, you know, I kind of went into the final the day I was supposed to sign on the dotted line.

I didn't even have a clue about what are the strategic goals. I actually had to have a sidebar conversation with the provost, and say, What do you want to have done? And these are the dozen things I want to do. And do you agree with that?

Fortunately, there was good alignment there. But you know, it's any Moreover, if there's not alignment, I'd like to know that on day zero as opposed to day 2000 what a great conversation. Jim Ellis 42:41 Great session. Dave Ikenberry 42:42 Thanks.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Dean's Council. This show is supported in part by Korn Ferry leaders in executive search. Dean's Council was produced in Boulder, Colorado by Joel Davis of analog digital arts for a catalog of previous shows. Please visit our website@deanscouncil.

com if you have any feedback for us, please let us know by sending an email to feedback@deanscouncil.com and finally, please hit follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast player so that you can automatically receive our latest show you Transcribed by https://otter.