Product Development with Neighborhood Trust's Theo Vaughn

Speaker A: Hello, and welcome back to Data Driven Finance, brought to you by Yodlee. I'm Mike Stiles, and my guest today is Theo Vaughn, Director of Product Services at Neighborhood Trust Financial Partners. Prior to that, he was Chief Experience Officer at Catapult Credit Services and Product Engagement Manager at Agora Data. He's resoundingly hailed as someone skilled in the art of cross collaboration, product ownership and management. So, Theo, we're glad you could be with us.

Speaker B: Well, thank you. Great to be here.

Speaker A: Well, we'll certainly get to what you did and what you're doing at Neighborhood Trust, but I kind of wanted to grab listeners early just by asking you what's your approach to and just kind of philosophy around product. Directing product management? What does that mean? And what are the reasonable expectations that a great product manager should have?

Speaker B: Uh, you know, it's interesting. I. I think directing product and directing the team that I, that I lead is, uh, you know, it's a lot like being an air traffic controller. I'm not actually the one flying the plane. You know, I don't manage, uh, the signals or anything or turn the switches and flip the knobs. If I did, you know, things would get messy really quick. It's not just about zero tickets, I guess, is kind of what I'm saying. My team is a very strong team, but, you know, I'm more of a diplomat or a coach sometimes, occasionally a therapist, I guess. But, you know, it's basically just making sure that the product itself doesn't crash and burn. We spend less money than last quarter and we make more than the next, you know, and hopefully we're billing things for the right reason for the right people.

Speaker A: So who are the key influencers and stakeholders in a company where product strategy, product development is concerned? I mean, the answer kind of feels like it's everybody. But how do you align interests across the organization? Just kind of make sure the product is guided only by those who are qualified to design product. I guess that's what I want to say. You know, there are some voices that are kind of more informed and qualified than others.

Speaker B: Yeah, and you're right. Everybody thinks they are the, uh, main stakeholder. Uh, you know, in my opinion, it's the people who actually touch the customers and the data that kind of have the most weight to them. And again, you know, my job is to make sure we're not designing products by committee. You know, that's how you end up with a mess. That's how you end up with tons of technical depth. It's. You're Always trying to, to get back to, uh, you know, so I think the trick is alignment. You know, we hear everyone, but then we filter out the nonsense, you know, through kind of the evidence, the strategy that we have as an org, the capacity on the team. Um, so, yeah, as much as everyone likes to think they are, you know, sometimes you got to let them think they are. But, you know, through, uh, through historical knowledge, you can head in the right direction.

Speaker A: Well, how do you know what's right? I mean, is it customer and user input exclusively? Is it trial and error? Is it data? Is it intuition and experience? I mean, what kind of informs that North Star to use a played out astronomical cliche?

Speaker B: Well, you know, again, you know, it's a mix. Uh, you know, customers will tell you what they think they want. I often tell this story. I built loses or designed loses for years. And the way it would work is normally someone would come to us and say, my LOS is terrible. I hate it. It's the worst thing ever. Please build me a new one that is just like this. They don't always know what they want, but we try to get them there, uh, as a team. And then again, trial and error, it shows you kind of what they'll actually use. Uh, then you use the, uh, intuition experience to let you know if it's a risk worth taking. Uh, so I don't think the North Star, as you put it, is a single shining point. It's, uh, more like, uh, Google Maps, where it kind of recalculates constantly if there's traffic here or we took a wrong turn there, uh, it has to recalculate. And sometimes you kind of just get that gut feeling. I've kind of done this before. I think we should try it this way.

Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds really hard because you're trying to make a case to the stakeholders that might be pushing against you, and you want to do that with hard data and customer input and all that stuff. But like you just said, you can't even really rely on that because the customer doesn't even know what they want.

Speaker B: Yeah, you just have to make sure not to tell them that.

Speaker A: Well, tell me about Neighborhood Trust Financial Partners.

Speaker B: Oh, Neighborhood Trust is, uh, you know, we're a nonprofit based out of New York City. You know, I think our mission is simple, but it's bold. We're working with people who aren't locked out of financial stability. You know, that could be based on systematic issues or, you know, if the system just wasn't designed with them in mind. So we like to you know, combine human coaching with technology to help people, uh, navigate their money in real life and ideally in real time. So things like paying bills, building savings, avoiding, uh, debt traps or predatory lenders, um, you know, that's really kind of what we focus on. Our differentiator is, um, you know, I think we bring empathy to finance. You know, a lot of times your bank is going to give you an app, and they want you to work through the app and use the app. And the app is your gateway. We like to give you a plan and a person who's in your corner, uh, you know, someone who kind of has your back, someone you can speak to. And while the app provides value absolutely. To your bank, a lot of times it's the person in the plan that provides that value to your life and your financial life and financial strategy.

Speaker A: Hold on. You let your customers interact with actual humans?

Speaker B: We do, yes, sir. You don't even have to press 0 to talk to them.

Speaker A: So weird, but great. Well, you've been there a little over two years. Just kind of walk me through when, where, how, and especially why you were brought on.

Speaker B: You know, when I came on, the organization as a whole was doing some really amazing work, but we were in a place where we really needed to scale our technology, uh, to kind of match our ambitions. And so they brought in myself and, um, a couple other people, and we really built a team to basically provide the framework and the infrastructure and the systems and the product roadmap so we can actually push forward. I think a lot of times in product and doing what we do, it feels like either the roadmap or the, the plan for the project. One or the other is, you know, written in chalk, and we're waiting on a rainy day and we can't have that, you know, and so we really need a solid infrastructure and a solid plan. And so that's, that's when I came in and to build that plan and build that team and, you know, push us forward. And, you know, a lot of times in my background being in finance, you know, is different ways to nickel and dime people, is different ways to get an extra half percent out of people or quarter percent. Um, and right now, you know, it's good people doing good things, and we're really trying to change the way that people interact with their finances. Um, again, with a human approach and human in the loop and, you know, smart AI, things like that. You know, I kind of mentioned before a Google Map scenario or ways and, um, kind of really using that nav tech. If you Will navigation technology to guide our customers through their journey. And so yeah, it's good people doing good work and it's really a blessing. It makes me very happy every morning to go to work.

Speaker A: Yeah, you sound pretty happy. I think a lot of the time companies really don't even get enough credit for just recognizing and admitting to a big need that they have. So that's kind of like step one. What was their biggest need that you saw and how did you kind of go about helping them solve it?

Speaker B: Fantastic. Uh, question. You know, um, I think there's plenty of needs that ah, a lot of organizations need. Uh, and again, you know, that foundation and the infrastructure being so important things like change management is always very messy, uh, you know, dealing with legacy systems and limited resources. And as a product guy, the thing I've always hated to hear and I think most product people, uh, and probably even CEOs could resonate is there's nothing worse than we've always done it this way. And so we really try to negate that and we really tried not to build based on assumptions. And I think the surprise is actually how much excitement our staff gets, our teams get, our coaches get, and really our clients and customers get, uh, with some of the small wins. And so now the challenge is continuing to scale without losing that human first touch.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm really struck by that human first touch and neighborhood trust's approach to all that. And I'm curious to kind of get your take on that balance between maintaining that, maintaining the humanity, maintaining the access, the human feel, the human in the loop. When it seems like all of technology and the innovations we're seeing, like AI is trying to push that off to the side.

Speaker B: Yeah. You know, and it's um, I think we've come a long way. AI Every week I change my mind on how I feel about it. Um, you know, but it's a buzzword now. And so, you know, a lot of people just tend to throw out buzz, buzzword sometimes, you know, hoping for stickiness and not really knowing how to use it or really kind of more importantly why to use it. Um, but I think we have come a long way, um, with open banking and APIs and we use some data aggregators that give us fantastic data. Um, you know, the ability to utilize consultants from around the world. You know, it really kind of helps us continue down that highway that we're trying to navigate down when you know, sometimes it seems like half those exits are closed. Kind of old school compliance mindsets or again different data silos. They Slow things down. Um, but we have huge opportunities and you know, that's really again trying to free up the flow of financial data. So kind of making it a little more personalized for the, again, the human touch coaching, building that trust faster, building integrity faster, eliminating guesswork for clients and for our people. So, you know, that's things that technology can't always do. Stay AI Sounds great. It is great and ideally it will be. But there's always going to be things, uh, out there that slow things down. And there's technology, there's things that technology just can't do. And that's what our human coaching does and that's our human touch and that's our human in the loop software design and build. And you know, it really is again for the people, but it's good people doing good work.

Speaker A: And that may have partially answered my next question, which is, you know, there's a lot of people listening who are undergoing the same kind of process that you're talking about. What kind of bumps did you hit along the way? What surprised you if anything? And kind of what challenges remained to be solved?

Speaker B: Again, great question. You know, um, challenges to be solved come every, you know, every time you turn on the news. In, in our space, you know, we work with a lot of low to middle income clients and that's our main demographic and we're talking finances and financial security. In uh, a, in a world where we don't always know what's going to happen next, that really opens up room for again, predatory lending to come in. That really opens up the room for, well, now what do I do with my student debt and my student loans? Um, you know, that really opens up conversations and dialogue around immigrants and taxes, you know, paying their taxes yearly. So, you know, it really changes all the time and at very rapid speed right now. I will say one great thing about neighborhood trust is we are all extremely mission aligned. Uh, we all have the same mindset, um, that it's about our clients, it's about the people that our coaches are truly helping on an everyday basis. And you know, when you have a bad day or when you see something on the news or read something in the paper that's going to affect your clients, it's really easy to, um, get dismayed. But we've had a lot of conversations with our clients and we hear and we see daily the power that we have and the value that we provide them. So, you know, it makes those bumps in the road easier to get over.

Speaker A: Well, I'm not asking you to speak for your employer, but just kind of. What's your personal impression of connectivity and data accessibility in the financial space? Is there enough, Is it too much? Is there anything holding it back?

Speaker B: Yeah, again, you know, I feel like we've gotten very far down the line. Um, you know, even with this conversation you and I are having, we're not in the same room. Twenty years ago, we probably would have had to have been. Um, so I think the technology is moving and it's moving rapidly. Uh, adoption is always an issue, uh, as well as, you know, people who are, who are not out there for your own good. Being, uh, a non profit and in the nonprofit space, you know, we have to put an extra lens on who we're partnering with and some of our vendors. But again, because of all that, we, we are moving forward and we're moving forward at rapid speed. So, you know, I think connectivity is extremely important. Of course we wouldn't be able to do our job without it. But I think it's also about accessibility and I think accessibility for our clients is really, again, where some of our value comes from or comes to. We've been able to build out things and put together, um, applications that show where credit, where lending is hitting you. If you didn't even realize they were, they were hitting you. Uh, things like credit repair could just be coming out of your bank and you have no idea. We have the ability through, again, connectivity with different aggregators and open banking to see that, hey, huh, you're being charged for this and you didn't know it. You have two Netflix accounts and you didn't know it. So we're able to see that through technology. We wouldn't have been able to do that, you know, a decade ago.

Speaker A: You know, no industry requires trust quite like the financial industry. I mean, maybe medical. What are the pillars of trust that a financial company has to provide customers so that they can use these products fully and confidently?

Speaker B: Yeah, so that's something my team talks about all the time, you know, on my team Silo. But as an organization, as a whole, these are conversations we have on a regular basis. To me, uh, and to my team, it's all about three things. Uh, and you know, we have trust in our name. So this is, this is important to us. It's security, protect me from bad actors, from people trying to take from me or impact me in a negative way. It's transparency. Help me with my money. Not in legalese or lawyer talk, let's just talk chat with the friend. But be transparent about what's going on, um, and then the other thing is reliability. If we say we're going to do something, we're going to do it, we say we're going to help you, we're going to help you. And being reliable from a coach standpoint, you know, available at meetings, uh, to a technology standpoint, being up and running when it needs to be, um, you know, and of course no system is 100% hack proof, but we can be 100% honest and that really builds trust over time.

Speaker A: Beyond that trust factor, there's also the UX and usability aspect that determines whether a consumer is or isn't going to use the technology. What kind of boxes do you check off? When you think about what today's financial technology user kind of expects to see and wants to be able to do?

Speaker B: You know, I think that in this world it's all about speed and I think a lot of people want instant gratification, but the reality is I think they want empathy. So speed, instant gratification, empathy as a three legged stool. Um, I also think a financial product needs to be very clear. That's one thing that we see a lot in uh, fintech and financial industries, specifically in banking. You know, if I have to Google what terminology you're using, you've already lost me and I'm in this space. So for a client, we, we don't want that. You know, if I have to click five different clicks to get to where I think my, you know, account is, you'll ask me again, again if I don't feel like you understand my situation. If, if our coaches talk down to our clients, you know, we, we would lose them. You know, if our coaches don't show the empathy and have the empathy that they do for our clients, you know, our clients are going to assume it's just not for them. Again, instant gratification. They, you know, we've set up SMS and texting notifications for our clients because they want that. You know, it's not, it's not filling out your taxes where you got to do 15 forms of things you don't understand. So, you know, I think that's what makes it makes a product benefit a client, makes it valuable and a pleasure to use.

Speaker A: What's it like being a manager of product and having not just change happen, but I mean generational change being thrown at you, just faster and faster, like AI, we touched on a little bit. Quantum computing is probably right around the corner. It feels like there's almost no way for product development to keep up or move fast. Enough or stay on or ahead of the curve.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, I, uh, I grew up without the Internet. I didn't have the Internet in my house till I was, you know, 15, 16 years old and I was still outside doing stuff. And it was, you know. Oh, yeah, there is the Internet. It wasn't the Internet at that time. Um, so now. Yeah, you're right. AI, Quantum, uh, computing. It's surfing in a storm. Like, it's, it's non stop, it's everywhere. Uh, get lots of buzzwords. I've been going to meetings, you know, for years, where the term AI is used in every single meeting. So it's exciting, uh, it's powerful. But you have to be aware of what's going on. And, you know, part of my job is also, you know, making sure that we don't panic because something crazy is coming down the road. You know, again, you know, we, we figure out what's real and what's not. We figure out when we're ready to take the journey or not. So, you know, with AI and quant, I think the future is bright. But again, it terrifies me every other week, you know, the future, how it's going to affect product and what we do as an organization and is a, uh, is an industry. Uh, you know, I don't think the biggest skill will be technical. I think it's going to be adaptability. It's going to be, how do we fit this thing that's already here into our repertoire? You know, again, I've had many conversations where it's, you know, well, should we announce that we're using AI for this certain thing? And, you know, I don't remember time saying, hey, should we announce that we're using the Internet? That's, that's where AI is.

Speaker A: We have phones now.

Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. Correct.

Speaker A: Yeah. A year ago you were supposed to put your bank in the metaverse. Right, Right.

Speaker B: And you had to wear the goggles.

Speaker A: Well, Theo, thanks again for agreeing to be a, uh, guest on the show. If listeners want to find out more about you or Neighborhood Trust, what's the best way for them to do that?

Speaker B: NeighborhoodTrust. Uh.org. you can set up a conversation, uh, a meeting with one of our coaches right then and there. You can read biographies on the coaches to make sure that it's someone that you really resonate with. Again, for that human touch, you know, again, we build software for our coaches as well as for our clients. You know, we really want to make sure that it's a symbiotic relationship and that it's very streamlined. The assistance you need is there when you need it. It is reliable and it will help you perfect.

Speaker A: And for our listeners, go ahead and subscribe to the show. We'll always have expert insights like this for you. And if you want to see how aggregated financial data might be of great use, use in your business, visit resources.yodlee.com podcasts and we'll see you next time on, uh, Data Driven Finance.