Becoming a CS Leader for the First Time: Stop Burnout Before It Starts

Speaker A: I just want to say that it was maybe the hardest part, uh, for me to set boundaries. And now I see even small boundaries setting, like celebrating my wins, because as Norma said, last minute meetings, yeah. And I say, great. I responded, no. And I'm grateful to myself because I set my boundary and I see that it gives me emotional stability and nothing controls me anymore. I continue working on this, to be honest, but I see results and I celebrate these small wins, uh, by setting boundaries, by having these, uh, non negotiables. It's really very important if you're in

Speaker B: that mode, if you're stressed all the time, you're literally physically. It's impossible for you to also be strategic. Because being strategic, for that to happen, you have to be in your prefrontal cortex, which is a newer part of the brain, evolutionary speaking, it takes longer to get online. So you literally have to shift yourself out of fight or flight and into your prefrontal cortex in order to be strategic.

Speaker C: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Customer Success Talks Real Challenges, Experts Advice, the podcast dedicated to helping those transitioning into customer success and early career customer success managers. I'm, um, your host, Byron Toruno, customer success manager. And just like you, I'm still learning about this amazing world of customer success. And today we have another amazing episode which is going to be part of this series of episodes called Becoming a CS Leader. For. For the first time today, we will be focusing on leading with intention. And the idea here is to avoid the burnout piece, to understand that also leadership, someone who already did it, but not in CS yet. Notice that sometimes leadership can be scary. And even, even because we can see how people from outside of the box, they are just maybe stressed out. There's a lot of expectations, there's a lot of, um, pressure. Huh? Here and there. And also even in our personal lives. So how can we deal with our stuff but also deal with other stuff at work? And then so many people needing something from us. So today is going to be that conversation into what does it mean to lead with intention and also still having fun and being motivated. We have two guests, so full house today. We have Norma, Serena Hogan, and we also have Ola Ah, Kinach. So let's start with Norma. Norma, you are a leader who have been, who have built your career in the intersection between customer success, but also people development with years of experience guiding teams through growth and change at the same time, which we also do that in our personal lives and also with customers. And you have learned that leadership isn't just about Performance metrics. It's also about what I said at the beginning. Purpose, energy and alignment. Norma, welcome to Customer Success Talks.

Speaker B: Thank you so much. It's so lovely to be here.

Speaker C: Hola. Uh, Kinash, who for me is just so a person who I perceive because we haven't had the chance to meet yet, uh, but, uh, I perceive that you are so curious but also so passionate that I feel identified with that. And that's also what motivated me to start this podcast. And now with 100 plus episodes, I'm still really, really curious. And um, I feel that you are really, really a person who I want to talk to at some point in life. So I hope we can meet at some point. But for everyone who doesn't know, Olia Kinash, um, is a customer success leader with more than a decade of experience in client relationship management and business consulting. What a good combination. OLA has built your career around helping customers succeed not just with solving problems, but by creating long term partnerships grounded in trust and impact. That's really human. So welcome to Customer Success Talk.

Speaker A: Byron, thank you so much for having me here today and for the introduction and today I'm excited to talk about Intentional leadership and how Norma's program transformed the way I work today and uh, why it matters so much for anyone stepping into a leadership. And uh, you know, actually I came to this program in, in a very unexpected way. Uh, I was speaking at a customer success event and it was amazing, full of energy, insights, community. And uh, just few hours later, Kyiv was under a massive missile attack. And uh, there was a contrast and it was overwhelming and it reminded me that, uh, many things, uh, people don't see behind the scenes can deeply impact the way we engage. I shared that uh, on LinkedIn, not to talk about the word self, but to show that we carry invisible realities, responsibilities, emotions, and they impact our lives, our professional and personal lives. Norma saw the post and invited me to join her Intentional Leadership program. And honestly, uh, it became much more than a gift. It was exactly what I needed at the moment. And uh, I joined. I wanted to grow not only as a manager, but as a human. To set boundaries, to avoid burnouts, to communicate with more clarity and lead myself first before leading others. So normal. Thank you so much. I'm really grateful, uh, to you for this course and for the transformations. And I think that uh, I didn't understood, uh, exactly what uh, this course can give me. But finally I received even more.

Speaker C: Oh.

Speaker B: So here, um, and honestly, I mean, I think most of us, we talk about stress that really isn't actually threatening to our actual, you know, lives, whereas your stress actually is. And I can only, like, actually, I can't imagine, you know, how you live. And yet you've showed up every week and you've brought so much every time, and it really, like, is incredible and inspiring. And, um. And again, there's a lot of circumstances you can't change, but what can you own and what can you do to manage your own stress, even in actually threatening situations like you're in?

Speaker A: Yeah. And you gave great tools, and I applied them on a daily basis. Oh, thank you.

Speaker C: And this is so interesting because you touch on science of stress. Olia. Touch on the invisible realities. I think they both are really, really big, uh, topics that we can definitely touch on when it comes to, uh, intentional leadership. First of all, what does that even mean? Let's start with the basics, then we can jump into how to. But what is intentional leadership?

Speaker B: Yes, good point. So, I mean, I sort of made this term up for me. And what it means is to lead yourself and other people from presence and awareness, rather than autopilot or even sort of based on just, like, reacting and to stress. So it is a lot about slowing down enough to notice what you're doing, why you're doing, what you're doing, what's driving your choices and your energy, what's underneath all the busyness. And really, a lot of it is about aligning, um, like leading from alignment rather than just the pressure and remembering that leadership isn't about managing people, it's about leading them. Like, there's a difference between managing and leading. And it's also about leading yourself first. And when you are intentional, you bring presence into every interaction and you respond rather than react sort of habitually. And you choose instead of you just chasing. And it can be very transformative because it can move you from having leadership being something very draining into something much more meaningful because it's authentic. It's rooted in what matters to you. And I always say, like, it is not about becoming a different person. It's about giving that inner best version of you more space. Um, and allow, you know, slowing down enough to let that version kind of come out and take the wheel, rather than our stressed and frazzled version of ourselves.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And it's especially important for customer success leaders who are constantly juggling expectations, emotions, feedback, deadlines, escalations, relationships. It's really very stressful. So, um, I'm happy to have such tools today. Yes.

Speaker B: And I think so, too. I don't exclusively work with uh, people in customer success. But a. I do because that's also what I know a lot about obviously. But also because I do think it is so commonplace in customer success. We are always ask to do more with less. And there are just especially in like a leadership role you, you have like that could be just you know, managing a team and hiring and things like that and developing could be a full time job. But usually that's just part of your job. Usually also have your own book of business. You're just a treasure leader. You're the senior leader on the. And it's. There's so many competing priorities all the time that I don't know how to escape this other than to own it and find ways to lead yourself first. Because most of us can't change the fact that it's very fast paced.

Speaker C: But it sounds, I mean I uh, want to challenge this idea a little bit.

Speaker B: Go for it.

Speaker C: Because it's just sometimes it's not as ABC to do right. So how to prepare for that leadership is not a flat role, not even cs. It's just a dynamic role that every day it's so different. And I think that we are maybe even preparing as cs individual collaborators for that. It doesn't have to be the natural next step. I think that CS also prepared us for so many other roles. But how to prepare for having a healthy intentional leadership when there is also external factors that create distress and then even can produce that anxiety and then just everything goes to hell.

Speaker B: Yes, um, I do really think that we have more control than we think many of us that ah, if we are in like a leadership role, you have actually like some control over your calendar for example. And this is where things like boundaries come in and, or even like understanding your values and when are you out of alignment with them. But uh, like little tricks that I teach people is like if you own most of the meetings, like you create you, you create the calendar and write for most of your meetings. Make them 55 minutes instead of an hour. No one will even care or even notice. And then you have five minutes in between calls that you can use to like check in with yourself. Take a couple of deep breaths, um, listen to a guided meditation, maybe a stretch, just ways to calm your nervous system and reset yourself and it will make a massive difference because otherwise you just, it gets like stress just increases one, one call at a time. And this way you reset and you reset and you reset and you'll feel completely different by the end of the day. It doesn't feel like you chased. You were chased by a tiger all day, but you actually felt like I was just really productive. But I had a chance to check in with myself. How am I feeling? Where's my, my body at? And before I did this, I had this, like, one moment where I did like a, uh, oh, I should check. I have a little check in. And it was like, more than halfway through my day, and I realized I've been freezing all morning and I didn't do anything about it. And I was actually physically uncomfortable. But I'm like, I'm paid to be in my head. So I was in my head. And it wasn't until I actually, like, checked in, I was like, I'm actually uncomfortable. And I could change this by, like, you know, I don't know, getting a blanket or putting a heater on or putting another layer on. And it's these little things. And what's really powerful about that is that every time you do that and every time you reset yourself or, um, hold a boundary, not only does it actually, you know, change how your day goes, but you're also strengthening a new muscle that is sort of a I take care of myself first muscle. And that I think that's really powerful in itself because it does get easier with time, but also you realize it just. It shifts how you feel. If your system knows that, you will take care.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that, uh, practicing is really very important, uh, here, uh, to use, um, different tools and approaches in real situations with clients, with colleagues, to deadlines, to escalations, uh, both in personal and professional life. Because, you know, when you learn concepts and you do not practice them, they, uh, are useful. So leave them practice. And, um, after this, uh, you will see the, the change and transformations. And as Norma mentioned. Yeah. Uh, about deep breathing, uh, I think it was one of the first tools, uh, that changed everything for me. It was, uh, three step pause. When you notice making deep breath and choosing how to answer, how to respond. And, uh, you're just asking, what, uh, am I feeling? Uh, what's happening in my body? What's this emotion is trying to tell me? Uh, you're making a pause. And then you, uh, respond with clarity, not with stress. I think it's. It's really very helpful.

Speaker B: I love how you described that. And that's exactly what it is. And what I do too, is I have little recorded versions of these, um, so that like, literally they're less than five minutes. So that somebody could listen to something like this in between meetings until they got kind of used to it and then you just can do it naturally. But I find in the beginning could be very helpful to do guided versions to kind of, you know, get started.

Speaker C: I love this because you touch on calendar as a tool and also Olia touch on the, on breathing and also practicing because it all, it's all related towards that muscle that you were talking about, Norma. And something that I have seen in the past myself is that sometimes I used to react when I was back in Costa Rica, leader, as a leader I was learning, right? It was a journey. So I was, I was there, I was learning and then I noticed that sometimes my reactions were automatic. And then uh, it was just not the best automatic way of doing stuff. I wanted to ask.

Speaker B: Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker C: No, please, please, please.

Speaker B: I was just going to say that that's also natural, right? Uh, we are. Most of what we do is habits are automatic and that is really your brain trying to conserve energy. Right? So it makes a lot of sense. But there is. If you shift out of this autopilot and with these practices you, you can come back, go back to a place where it is a habit. But it's almost like ah, an autopilot or a habit at a higher level if you will, where it is actually an intentional autopilot. So it will still come easy. Um, and it's not always going to be like oh, I got to like oh right, I got to pause. It will become second nature again. But it is just a new, more intentional habit if you will.

Speaker C: I want to ask Ola her like, how have you seen since you finished the program, right? How have you seen the performance of your team and yourself applying those habits that you learn through Norma's program? Because it's uh, also about the impact that that's also going to bring. Right. If you have uh, more time to uh, activate more a bit your system too by what you said, breathe in two seconds and then reacting based on uh, a more clarity response. And I know guy, I know everyone listening and say oh my God, that sounds so easy to do. It's not easy. And that's why we are talking about it. That's why there are programs. But Norma, like what is, what has been the impact that you have seen since you have been applying a little bit more? Actually not a little bit more. The intentional leadership.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, it's, it's really a huge transformation. I would say that before uh, I was reactive, uh, emotionally. Emotionally overloaded, absorbing everyone's stress, overthinking, uh, blurred boundaries and even burnout cycles and after the program I see grounded responses, defined boundaries, uh, clear minded, uh, more confidence and uh, mindful communication. Uh, I'm more focused by the way because I use these tools and I block my time. Also the second uh one recommended technique, blocking your time. Really very helpful to be more focused and uh, to deal with the tasks. And now I see that it's intentional leadership, uh instead of survival leadership. Uh I hear apply these techniques not only in my professional life but in my personal. And uh, people see the transformation and even ask me what would you recommend? What shall I do? And from what I can start just these baby steps. Start with breathing for example. Or uh one of my favorite ones is uh the power of letting go. The let them theory. Uh, you know we cannot control uh people's emotions, uh their reactions, tough emails, delayed tasks and um, previously uh, I used to take everything uh personally and uh, I'm very sensitive person and uh, I was thinking about the uh, customer email for hours or thinking how to respond or not setting clearly my boundaries. And now I see that uh we have the let them theory and I can say let them send the email, let them react how they react, let them be uh, who they are. And instead uh, I choose let me, let me breathe, let me reset and let me choose my energy and my response. And this saved me so much time and emotional energy. Uh, I realized that not every email needs a reply and not every conversation needs me and I don't need to prove myself in every situation. So it brings so much peace. I recommend you to try.

Speaker B: I love it. And you know this is the thing too is where um, obviously I'm drawing for, from other um, people who have done other work like this. But um, this realization that we don't actually have to own at all if we are in this reactive stress. We feel like oh no one else is going to do it this way or things like that. And we actually as a leader we stop empowering our team to do things right and we start to micromanage it because it actually again it is a fight or flight is really, it's uh a, it's trying to deal with, with what seems dangerous. And there's a fear component and there it's a natural reaction to try to take control to, to sort of, you know, make that fear go away or make that danger go away.

Speaker C: Like if you, if you cannot do it, I will do it then.

Speaker B: Exactly, I'll just do it myself. I'll be faster. And it's actually, it's so crippling to your team, because not only are you not, uh, empowering them, but you also, in a way, telling them, I don't trust you to do a good job. And team members, they know that. They know, even if you never said it this way, that's what it feels like. There's a lack of trust there. There's a lack of, uh, empowerment. And that's honestly not good leadership. And that's part of it too, is that a lot of leaders in tech have become leaders either because they were great individual contributors or they had great ideas and founded the company. But it doesn't necessarily mean they have any kind of leadership qualities really. Um, and it is, you know, not. You don't just become a good leader. So this is where I built some of the leadership skills that I've learned in my masters and learned in other courses as well into this as well, because a lot of it, um, again, yeah, it's like, it will make you in, like, your team, you know, appreciate you more, and it will also make it easier for you. There are win wins, right? You empower others, you actually get stuff off your plate, but it's also good for them.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. But, uh, you shall know that I didn't become perfect. I just became present.

Speaker B: No, and that's such a good point, right? Like, perfection is never. It's not the goal because it's also not attainable. And, and it's. This is also why I say it's not about becoming a different person. I really trust that at the core, you already know how to do this. I'm just giving you the space to let that kind of come out and give you some tools to let that come out. Um, and hey, I still sleep all the time. But, you know, Byron, you were asking earlier, like, what's the biggest change? And like, for me, for myself, when I was starting to burn out about a year ago, I remember looking up, like, what is actually, what are some signs for burnout? And I was like, oh, no, check, check, check, check, check. Um, and that's where I was like, oh, maybe it is more serious than I thought, because that's part of the problem too, is that so often we're like, oh, no. Well, everyone's stressed. That's just how it is. Like, we're all really busy. That's just how it is. But it isn't actually normal, as in good for us or healthy. And it's really up to us to make that change. Um, and so for me, like, even just the fact that I literally had blood work done recently, and it, I had some of these things that almost like a reverse. And again, I don't want to talk medical stuff because I, that's not, you know, I'm not qualified to do that. But for myself, I've reversed some things because I operate so differently now.

Speaker C: And m. What is, what are those signs?

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So because for me, as a extremely curious person and also host, uh, there's so many, I have like so many notes here I cannot take, I cannot go in so many directions. But also I think it's super important to let know everyone, what are those signs? Because that's how you can start realizing when someone comes outside of the box and tells you, hey, look, like where you are right now. Um, so what are those early signs of potential burnout in leadership?

Speaker B: Yeah, so officially there's 12, um, stages of burnout. But uh, the signs sort of are like things like, you know, you're always tired, you're always stressed, you are like kind of lack that enthusiasm you have before, even to a point where you might even be not able to really perform your job. Um, things like you feel like you're constantly behind no matter how much you do. And you're always like, oh, if I just like got a couple hours more I could catch up. But you never can, even if you do put in these hours and oh, sorry, that hurts. Yeah, well, and again, it's a reality for most of us. But um, the problem there is that you will never actually get everything done. And if a lot of us have this like, yeah, I'll take a break when I finish this. But you can't finish it. So it's like you never take a break. Um, and then as a result, like again, we go back to, you're stressed all the time, you become easily irritated or impatient. Um, and then you know, your body will tell you too. Right? So things like, um, some people get like digestive issues, headaches, fatigue,

Speaker A: uh, sleep

Speaker B: issues, a lot of sleep issues. A lot of the like 2am wake ups and being like not able to fall back asleep because you're worrying about something. Those are all signs that are, um, you know, it's kind of like quietly starting to creep in. And yeah, again, I'm not a medical expert, but these are the sort of the signs that I felt in myself. And then there's actually like, you know, um, I was on my way to be diabetic, type 2 diabetes. I, my blood pressure is raised, my cholesterol was higher and all these things. And like, again, none of that was really? And I gained weight. That was another piece. And I remember my doctor being like, well, do you have a lot of stress? And I was like, well, yeah, of course, but who doesn't? That's normal. And he literally looked at me like, no, it's not. And I was like, oh. And, and, and just having that realization that, um, it isn't normal or healthy. But we do live in a way where most of us are constantly stressed and constantly in that survival mode and you stop noticing the signals of your body until you're forced to and you actually get ill. And I, I think that's awful because AA takes a lot more to recover than it takes to prevent. But most of us don't feel like I should make a change. Until you actually crash. Um, and then you just get replaced, right? Like the company. Like, sometimes you're lucky and you get some time off or things like that, but even then it's like on your own, you might not be able to recover from that. So, um, yeah, definitely. I'd say if you feel like you are. If you're feeling tired all the time, no matter amount of rest is like resetting you anymore. Um, you know, sleep is impacted, maybe your digestion is impacted, irritation. Um, and also just if you feel like you're no longer enthusiastic about stuff you used to. Like, like, even, um, you know, like, you, you loved your job. And now just like Monday's morning, you're like, no, Monday again. Those are all signs that you probably headed that way.

Speaker C: And that was my biggest sign at some point with the podcast and also with cs.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: But mainly with the podcast. So that was my biggest. That was my first signal that I noticed that is. Why am I losing passion for something that I want to do? Why?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I. That's where, um, I think it can almost be harder if it's something you really wanted to do. Right. It's like, it's one thing to not be excited about a spreadsheet, because few people are, but if you're like, this is something I really love doing and I'm still feeling a little burnt out over it, that's really where, um, it can be so, like, hard to admit because, like, but I really want to do this, but it's just there. We just have a limit. We have a maximum of what we can do. And even if you're excited about something, or maybe especially if you're excited about something, you pour yourself into it and you forget to take breaks, you forget to eat properly, you forget to prioritize your movement, you forget to prioritize your sleep. And then you can burn out like building your dream business. Like it doesn't even matter like what it is. It's just um, often it just, it starts to creep in and then you sometimes you have this moment of like oh wow, I gotta stop doing this. And sometimes you don't until you literally are sick and need to like be written off work. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah. And jobs can be very stressful, even uh, when we enjoy them. And also uh, I think that most leaders, they don't burn out suddenly, they burn out silently. And some early signals, uh, I have noticed it's reacting uh, instantly to everything. Uh, always being available, taking things personally, absorbing others emotions and losing boundaries. I think it's really important to protect yourself, to protect your boundaries, your energy, your response. And uh, to understand that uh, stress can eat you. And uh, if you have tools which are very helpful like in your program Norma, uh, it can be a huge transformation and very, very helpful. Amazing.

Speaker C: I think that's the ultimate goal, right? To be able to enjoy as long as possible what we are all doing and avoiding this. There's amazing people like Norma, also uh, Janelle Friday who works on intelligent emotional intelligence. Sorry, but there are three points that I really want to touch on before we end today's episode. And two are really to the brac ola and I think that they're super important to highlight again. One is the power of letting go. So how to let go of something that you really want.

Speaker A: Mhm. You just sh. Ah, you just shall understand that there are things, people that you cannot control. Uh, people's emotions, their reactions, uh, what they do, what they say you cannot control. But you can change uh, your response to these uh, patterns, uh, to these situations. Uh, you can uh, let them go and uh, choose yourself, choose your response, uh, breathing, uh, resetting and understanding that you cannot control them, but you can control yourself. And uh, it's, you know, it's like you have uh, inside you a fire. And uh, you just can observe this fire, not making it bigger, but observing and let it go. Like a wave in your body or something like this. I think it's really very helpful. Uh, you just uh, need to practice it and to understand how it works for you. Uh because you know, Norma gave a lot of grateful tools and some of them uh, I, let's say changed for myself. Uh, and they work uh, in this manner. So I uh, think it's important to understand what works for you better and uh, to feel, to act, uh with the clarity and uh, to breathe. Breathing is also very helpful.

Speaker C: But it's so scary because you know what it is the first time you don't do you see your calendar is so the color mine is blue. It's full of blue, let's say. And then how to start, you know, So I, I, I love how you said the letting go. I think it's also a lot related to what you also touch on the confidence. All comes with practice. But is there any first step?

Speaker B: We believe yes. And then what? And that's exactly it. And then, so this is like a three step pause that Olia mentioned. That's like you literally notice you're like, okay, why am I responding this way? Um, and then you, you breathe. So you can give yourself like this like pause to, and this chance to shift out of, you know, your fight or flight back into your prefrontal cortex. And then you respond with intention. Um, but a lot of that is to allow whatever comes up to come up. And this is the hard part. It's because we're then confronted with our own feelings and a lot of us are really afraid of our own emotions. But if you let an emotion happen, it actually only lasts like something like 90 seconds in your body. It's just, and the reframe of like emotions are like your enemy. They're just signals. They're messengers. They're trying to tell you something. Um, and they'll come back stronger and stronger until you listen. So if like your calendar, looking at your calendar like this stresses you out and it should, and it would stress me out too. It's thinking about, you know, taking a step back. And what I, where I always start is understanding your values, like what actually matters to you. And have that. And I have sort of, and I'll share that too. I have a little exercise around that and it's really using that as a compass because when you understand what matters to you, it's also a lot easier to protect what matters to you. Right. Um, and then from that it's the boundaries, right? So if you look at a calendar and it stresses you out like crazy to have eight meetings. And again, why wouldn't it to have things like, you know what I know I cannot have eight hours of meeting because A, I won't get any work done and B, that in itself is stressful to me. So then to have little non negotiables around it. So for example, you could say like, I don't do more than five meetings a day. Something like this, right? It's different for everyone. But what's your capacity actually? And if, and then just sort of, that's your bound, that's your boundary, that's your non negotiable. So if someone is like, hey, can you, uh, you could just say, actually, I already have. Um, again, doesn't require apology. But just saying today doesn't work. How about tomorrow or next week or things like that? And the first time is hard, but it will get easier. And sometimes we're like, oh my goodness, what happens if I say no? Or if I, uh. Usually nothing happens. Most people understand and we think we have to say yes just to avoid this potential outer conflict, but we create this inner conflict that actually creates the type of stress that makes us sick. When we may not have even created an outer conflict. They might have just been like, okay, sure, tomorrow works. And so one of the things that I had for myself, one of the non negotiables, is no last minute meetings. If someone's like, hey, can you have a quick chat? I would say, no, like that doesn't work for me. And I had the run ins with that because not everyone respected that. But I just, I kept saying, like, for me to do my best work, I need to protect my time and energy and I want to be able to show up as my best self. So that's why last minute meetings don't work for me. If there's something like, again, software, we're not really saving lives. Most things can wait till the next day. So just to say that, like, hey, today is actually very busy, but how about tomorrow at 10, right? And actually make it concrete, like, I want to do this, but today is just not. Doesn't work for me. And just having these little scripts, even for yourself, uh, to say it with clarity, not apology, but to understand what you need to show up as your best self. Because even your boss wants that for you, right? They want you to be able to perform at your best, um, especially in the long haul, right? It isn't a sprint. We are doing this for the long haul. And this is why I'm passionate about us too. Because we are losing great leaders to sheer overwhelm and to burnout. And so that is so painful to me. It's like, how can we build capacity in people so people can show up more and do the amazing things they do in the world, right? But we can't really do it without tools. And we're not given these kinds of tools at work, not at all. Or in society, right? Usually you're like, oh, we feel like we should be able to handle more all the time. And it's just not, it's not, it's just not true.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's really very powerful, uh, setting your boundaries. I would also recommend to start your day with uh, intense tension setting, uh, what do I want to be today? And to end your day with groundings. Um, just breathing, walking, gratitude. It can be a, uh, workout outside without your phone, without any screens. A few things you are grateful for today. It's, it's also really very helpful. Just try it.

Speaker B: Yeah. And like, like based on that, like one of the, you know, like a little thing you could say is like, um, in the non negotiable could be like I'm going to pause before I act. So I'm going to always take a breath before I respond to somebody saying something or a message or into a meeting or making a decision and just give myself this chance to access that sort of in more intentional me. And, and I love like, I love doing that too. Like bookending my day with like a little morning meditation and evening meditation. I don't do it every day. Um, and I'll send you the recordings for that too. Um, um, I don't do it every day, but I do notice the day that I do it, my entire day will be different. So most of us, we, we get out of bed and immediately we're already two steps behind, right. And this idea, oh, you gotta just get up earlier. I'm like, I can't, like, I can't. I need so much sleep. But it's like. And it doesn't have to be right away. And often I will jump up and get right into things. But then where in my day do I have little like pauses, check ins, right? That I can be like, how do I feel? What do I need right now? And just give myself that little break. And knowing that that's coming is also again, quite nourishing.

Speaker C: Interesting tools. Never thought about them. And sometimes we apply something and we don't know.

Speaker B: Right? Yeah, just try it out, see what happens. Right. And um, it definitely, you know, is one of those things where it's like it just, it might just accumulate and you'll be like, oh, actually I do feel different. And it's also, it's not a, you know, it's all of it is a practice. I think that's the biggest thing too is like, I wish I could give people like here, you need to flip the switch and you'll forever feel different and it's just not true. Right? It's like you have to put in the work. This is why it's called work, right? Like it's like it is um, especially beginning and when you're making these changes and setting boundaries, it can be very uncomfortable. And this is also why I think it's good to do it with support, um, and have someone you can run this by and then give me some more tools. Um, and then how to deal with the discomfort if somebody does push back, for example. But again like the beauty of it is it is like a muscle. Every time you do it, it gets easier. It becomes more your natural in, you know, new new habit. And also people around you will start to, you know, just know that, oh, I can't do last minute meeting with this person or whatever. Right? And, and that's okay, right? This, we don't actually have to be available 247 to be a good leader.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and now, uh, when I receive a tough email or negative feedback, I'm just making a post and thinking which tool shall I use right now? Breathing or making a black balloon or something else. But it's amazing because when you have um, not only one tool, but several tools or a lot of tools, you can choose, uh, which of them best work for you and apply them on a daily basis.

Speaker B: And even that is amazing because even just to be like, which tool should I use? That requires your prefrontal cortex. So that alone will shift you out of fight or flight. Be like, ooh, what tool should I use? Because then you're starting to like, you know, oh, I gotta think about this. And that alone will help you get out of the stress mode. Right?

Speaker C: It's about the habits. Like, um, both of you have been continuously saying habits.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: We have so many habits, good or bad. And one habit is just going to sleep, even though it's a necessary necessity. Uh, the habit is at what time we go to sleep and after. Before. After doing what? And um, I have been reading this book, the Atomic Habits. It has been big, big impact in the terms of. I even applied in a recent project, um, at work with customers. It's like the habit starts also by thinking of what is the reward. And then once you get the reward is about the process of getting to that reward. And you, Olya, you said that you, in the mornings you do intentional. Intentional what?

Speaker A: Intentional gratitude.

Speaker C: Intentional gratitude.

Speaker A: Gratitude. And uh, you are just asking yourself, uh, how would you like to respond today? And uh, maybe thinking about yourself in the future as a leader, you want to be how this leader will respond to the situation. And uh, how would you like to, to, to react, to respond to the situations? It's, it's really very helpful. You just need several minutes even less, uh, in order to give your, this uh, attitude and this emotion to, to your day and uh, you become more productive, you can make more things, more focused. Uh, it's really very helpful.

Speaker C: You're pre. Programming yourself.

Speaker B: Yeah, you. Exactly, you are. And. But this is I think an important point because I think a lot of us feel like I can't put more on my plate learning something new that seems like overwhelming. And this is why, like the book you were mentioning, Tim's clear. He also talks about habit stacking. Right. So it's little things like um, you know, while I'm waiting for my tea to seep, I'll take some deep breaths. I'm going to be waiting for that anyway. So it's just to combine things that you're doing already anyway. Right. While you're brushing your teeth or every time I go to bed, you know, I'll take a moment to like feel like combining.

Speaker C: Combining them.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because I agree that like the thought of like I'm going to put more on my plate is like very overwhelming. But this is actually, it's. And it's not about that because it's not about performance. It's about actually doing less to a point and building little pieces into it so that it becomes. Yeah. A new habit or a new, A new practice that you know will be. Yeah. You, you really are upgrading your system, if you will. Right. If we're, if we know we're talking tech anyway, so that's perfect. It's CU 2.0. Was it? We still say that.

Speaker C: I don't know the last question I have because time is running out unfortunately and um, there's so many, uh, so many topics I still would love to touch, but you also miss the. What is. Would love to go deeper into stress. Uh, signs of stress, the invisible realities. Like there's also more that we could definitely touch on. But I also want to touch on what happens if you create your boundaries. Right. You have your habits set, you create those, um, those boundaries, but then they don't get respected. I don't know, Ola, if you have gone through that, I don't know, Norma, like what suggestions you have. But it would be nice to end today's episode with how to deal with that situation.

Speaker B: Ole. Do you want to say something first?

Speaker A: Um, I just want to say that it was maybe the hardest part, uh, for Me to set boundaries. And uh, now I see even small uh, boundaries setting, uh, like celebrating my wins because as Norma said, last minute meetings. Yeah. And I say, oh great. I responded, no. And I'm grateful to myself because I set my boundary and I see that it gives me emotional stability and uh, nothing controls me anymore. Uh, I continue working on this, to be honest, uh, but I see results and I celebrate these small wins, uh, by setting boundaries, by having these, uh, non negotiable. It. It's really very important. And when you see the difference, uh, you know, it works and you want to do it better and practice more. And I don't try to do everything and to be everywhere. I just making step by step, setting boundaries and uh, communicating with clarity and thinking that uh, what I shall do first and making poses as well because you know, it's really important. Uh, I was in a hurry all the time. I was not making, uh, pauses and responding, uh, at the moment. And right now I see the difference. And setting boundaries is one of the steps, big steps, let's say, of the intentional leadership. Yes.

Speaker B: And so the three things that I teach people about boundaries is there's three steps. So the first one is to define some of those non negotiables. Right. So really understand your energy, your time. So again, it could be something like, um, you know, no last minute meetings or X amount of meetings per day. Or if you're not sure what your non negotiable should be, you could also ask someone like, what do you complain about the most most? Is it the like number of meetings? Is it that you're consistently asked to work late when you didn't know before or anything like this what is really the issue for you. And then see if you can kind of define some non negotiable. So that's step one. And then step two is to communicate that with clarity, not apology. M. You don't have to be like, well every time you ask me to stay late, like I'm gonna have to like move my childcare now. And people just be like, oh my goodness, what did that just walk into? But instead to say, last minute doesn't work for me. I have a very busy life. It doesn't work for me. I would love to stay late and help with this if you could let me know earlier. And it might be the fa. The case that the first couple of times people were like, excuse me, what? But it does get easier. So the third piece is to hold it consistently. And that's the challenging part because, um, and that's why I often suggest do it with like a low risk scenario first, right? It could be like something in your personal life or, um, even with your own team members, right? That you. Or with a colleague. Like, maybe don't do it with like, something like, you know, I'm gonna finally tell off my, like, probably not a good call. Like, don't do something that's dangerous in that sense. Start small and work your way up. Because every time, like what Olio was saying, every time you do do does feel like a little win. You're like, I held my boundary. And that reinforces this as well. Because you not only will feel good, but also you realize, like, on some level it is much deeper than what you say. It's about telling your own system that you are actually worthy of this kind of care, right? Like, you matter enough that you can say no and you're no longer going to choose your inner discomfort over an outer possible discomfort all the time. And you're just going to say no. And it does become easier every time you have that little win and you're like, I actually said no. And you know what? Nothing happened. No one died. Nothing fell apart. People were just like, okay, sure. And that's usually what happens. And it can be that someone pushes back, but there, there too, if somebody does push back, it's so helpful to just say, to explain it a little bit. Be like, I know what I need to do my best and this is it. And so. And the other way around too, right? If somebody set a boundary with you, like, with clarity and kindness, not like, how dare you ask me this? But just like, that doesn't work for me. Like, I've literally never had someone say that to me. And I was like, how dare you? I'd be like, good for you. And that's too. Like, we would respect it in someone else, but somehow we, we have a hard time doing it for ourselves. So. But it is, like a challenging thing to do, but starting, like, low risk. So maybe do it in your personal life somewhere. Um, or yeah, just something that doesn't feel like, oh, my goodness, this is a conversation I'm really dreading. And then work your way up as you realize, like, oh, actually I do feel better if I say no here every once in a while. Um, and just realize that that's what you need to be your own best version and show up the way you want to show up. And ultimately you will be more productive, right? Like, you will be more, uh, you, you'll get done more because you will Be more strategic and all this stuff. And then with that, uh, it's almost like again, you're building a muscle. And then you can work your way up to maybe more high stakes situation where you want to have a boundary.

Speaker C: There's no best way to end today's episode with those step by step that everyone can just start applying tomorrow. I loved how you said low risks and I love how you both brought literally tactical steps with all the way from calendar. What matters for you? Intentional, uh. Oh, I keep forgetting the name Ola. Sorry, Intentional what?

Speaker A: Intentional setting in the morning. Setting Setting in the morning.

Speaker B: Intention setting.

Speaker A: And in gratitude, uh, and uh, at the end of the day, uh, groundings and also gratitude and celebrating your wins as well. So, uh, there are many options you can choose.

Speaker C: Exactly. Because the last thing we want is to explode. And then once everything explodes, it just, it's hard to recover. And I think that if there's a place, uh, this is just me talking with, what I feel is that if this place, this workplace, these people that you're working with are not respecting that, well, you also have the power to choose where to be. But it's better to choose that when you have a place than not having that work. Right. And the last thing we want is to explode, to lose all of that. So those are my last words. Thank you, Norma. Thank you, Ola, uh, for your time, for your energy, for sharing your experience, for being vulnerable and also sharing your past stories. And I, uh, really appreciate you being here today.

Speaker B: Thank you so much. It was lovely to be here. Appreciate it, Byron.

Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Speaker C: Thank you both again. And I, uh, like always say, remember, keep learning, keep growing, and let's keep improving the world of customer success. Until next time.

Speaker B: I love it.

Speaker C: Bye.