EP 53 - Culture or Commodity? Can In-House Teams Become Irreplaceable?

Speaker A: You built a content machine and now they wanted to make magic. Most in house teams were designed for speed, scale and savings. Not storytelling, not strategy, not soul. But leadership. Expectations have shifted. They want bold ideas. They need bold ideas. Cultural relevance. Creative work that moves the business. So what happens when a team built for output is suddenly expected to deliver impact? Today's guests, Pete Johnson and Juan Carlos Gutierrez have lived through that transformation. They've led iconic creative teams at Lego, Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network, and Sachi and Sachi. And now, through their firm love and respect, they help in house leaders turn production units into brand engines. In this episode, we talk about why Culture and Not Process is your strategic lever. How to unlock your team's hidden superpowers and creative disabilities. Yes, creative disabilities. And what CMOs really need from in house teams today. And how conversation, not automation, might be your greatest creative tool. So if you lead an in house team, or if you are that team and you're ready to make your work matter at a different level, this one's for you. Let's get into it. All right, well, Pete Johnson and Juan Carlos Gutierrez, welcome to the Creative Ops podcast. So glad that you could both join us today.

Speaker B: Well, nice to see you again, Nish. Thank you for having us.

Speaker C: Yeah, great to see, Great to see you. We're excited to be here.

Speaker A: Yeah, you both are, uh, in upstate New York right now. And, uh, today we're going to be talking about creative culture. And the, uh, the current placeholder title of this episode is like, uh, it's all about in house teams. And is it, um, like is it commodity or are they sort of these powerhouses and uh, sort of these superheroes of creative culture within their organizations. But before we get into that, why don't you each take a minute or two and tell us a little bit about yourselves and your background and uh, and what you do.

Speaker B: All right, all right, I'll, uh, go first.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, my name is Juan Carlos Gutierrez, so Rio Delgado Monroy. I'm very proud of all my names, but if it makes it easier, just call me Wasabi. That's what my close friends actually call me. My, uh, background, I am Colombian. Raised in the whole enchilada, as they say. Ah, I grew up in Colombia, Moved, uh, to the United States at a younger age, like, uh, 14, 15, uh, I found myself wandering the world away. After high school, I joined the United States Navy armed forces for a nine year hitch, which opened my eyes to the world really, and the world as a community, as a culture center, um, from the armed forces Once I realized that it uh, was more of a creative mindset than uh, restrict disciplinarian. Um, I found myself at Virginia Commonwealth University pursuing uh, a degree in advertising. And uh, my luck was that uh, Diane Cooktench, uh, a former legend in the business had just uh, launched the VCU Brand center, uh they call them back in the day, the VCU Ad Center. Um, I was one of the five guinea pigs for that program. Uh, and at the end of that program I didn't feel like I really had the portfolio that I wanted just simply because there wasn't enough time for me to build it in the six month program that we worked at vcu. So I found myself at Miami Ad School. I was in literally the first couple of graduating classes of uh, Miami Ad School. Back when I had my office at Nickelodeon. I used to put very proudly my two certificates on the wall that told everybody that I was an over educated creative more than anything, um, from uh, Miami Ad School. Uh, I lucked out and landed a gig at Y and r back in 1997 I think. Um, I landed at Y and R because of the tremendous culture that this organization had back in the day. I was very attracted to it. I've always been about culture. Uh, yes, I have a creative ego but uh, I managed to keep it in check. So I did 10 years there and I thought that I was done with the business and I was getting curious about other stuff. And then I met this guy right here, Pete Johnson. And Pete offered m me uh, an opportunity to collaborate with him at Saatchi and Saatchi under Tony Granger. Um, when I said yes, it was the most amazing couple of years that I had in my career because he totally flipped. It was like in the Renaissance era at Saatchi back in the those days. And uh, from Saatchi then this guy took me over to Nickelodeon and we did about 12 years there. Uh, and from there we ended up at Lego and now love and respect. But I'll pass it over to Pete to give you a little background on him and maybe expand on some of this.

Speaker C: Sure. Uh, well I mean he's, he learned advertising in academia. I learned it on the streets, the mean streets of Atlanta at Cartoon Network. I started my career in the entertainment side. So I came to, I came, I came um, to advertising through in house environments. And our careers are kind of mirrored uh up to, until we met. Um, and so I started uh, uh, in advertising, uh, doing content creation for Cartoon Network, uh, and did that for 10 years. It was an amazing Creative environment. And that's how I got to Saatchi. Uh, and that's where we met. Uh, and that's where my advertising career kind of really got its full education. This guy's made me a much better creative and also much better human. Uh, and that was the beginning of our relationship in 2006. Um, weirdly, we have some things in common. I'm half Ecuadorian. Uh, it's uh, a country that you don't really hear about often, but, uh, just south of Colombia. Uh, my mom is Ecuador was Ecuadorian and my grandparents and we have a dairy farm there now that he's visited.

Speaker B: Beautiful.

Speaker C: Haven't um, been in a couple years. But um, my siblings and my cousins that are there help run it remotely. Uh, what else can I say about me? You can find all the CV stuff on LinkedIn. And then I'm a volunteer firefighter up here in uh, Hudson or in uh, Stuyvesant, New York, in upstate New York. I've been doing that for about two and a half years, uh, almost two and a half years. And it's uh, been very fulfilling. And when you talk about community, that's something that when I came back from Lego, came back from Denmark, uh, and moved back up here, um, that's something I was missing was community. And I don't know what prompted me to go walk into the fire house and ask if they needed a 55 year old guy to start becoming a firefighter. But, but I did. And uh, it's been, it's opened up my, my life tremendously.

Speaker B: Not only just he actually calls me when he gets called to a fire and his wife and I have talked about it. We're both, we both got like this because we're like, okay, text me as soon as you get back home.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Sometimes it's hours crazy.

Speaker C: Anyway, but yeah, I'm fully trained and it's exciting and it's just an amazing world that I never, never was exposed to and some amazing people up here. And uh, I highly recommend it to anyone listening or watching in the United States. Anyway, 75, 76% of uh, fire service is totally volunteer. Uh, and they desperately need volunteers. And you can do what you can. It's great.

Speaker B: If he can do it, you can do it.

Speaker C: Yeah, if I can do it, you can do it.

Speaker A: All right, cool. Um, well, there's a lot in there and you guys mentioned some of my favorite words. Community, culture, creativity. Um, and let's dive into the, um, you know, sort of the main, main topic today. Um, and it's really that word culture.

Speaker B: Um,

Speaker A: so the two of you and your company, you work primarily with in house teams, you're running uh, in house teams at Lego and a couple of other places before starting your own firm. And, and I think today in house teams are sort of in this interesting state of transition. M. There's more and more investment in in house teams. A lot of that investment initially starts with um, thinking of the in house team as sort of a, uh, easily accessible and perhaps a cost effective um, production, uh, capability. Um, but the two of you have a different perspective on, on in housing. Um, and if I'm sort of getting this um, this sort of view, uh, incorrect or not doing it justice, please correct me. Um, and one thing I've talked, I talked to both of you about is sort of your belief that it's, it's really culture, creative culture and not process or efficiency that really becomes the key, key driver to creative excellence. And, and that is something that is becoming, or should be becoming increasingly important to brands that are investing into in house teams. It's not just for the easily accessible production capacity and capability. It's really that center of creative excellence for the creative work for the brand. And uh, and maybe then we'll also talk a little bit about how that might also then be leveraged for, for diffusing creativity as a superpower across the organization as a whole. But let's start there. Like why do you focus so much on creative culture? And um, whereas others might be focusing much more on process, on efficiency, which is still important.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, I think you did a great job of kind of encapsulating what our philosophy is. And as at our advisory firm, Love and Respect, we lead with culture and lead with values. And again, it comes and jump in anytime. Like it comes from at least our success at all the places that we've worked. And uh, when we were younger maybe we didn't realize we were doing it, but we were really leading with culture, trying to create a creative culture that would nourish and inspire uh, a team to retain that team, to attract new talent to that team, to develop that team. And then almost great work is an end result of those things. Now we, we do love process. I mean creative ops is important, super important. And we've struggled in our careers when we didn't have good processes. I know what I learned at Cartoon Network. It was kind of a wild west. We were all in our mid-20s and the adults were 30. So it was a nightmare sometimes, but also amazing. But uh, I often look Back at that time, saying if we had just done this one process thing or thought of it differently, we could have reached even greater heights. And I think I really learned process at UM and Saatchi. Uh, how account accounts are run, um, how project management is run, how, how producers can run effectively. And we brought the best practices to Nickelodeon when we started. And you had more experience at Y and R with that.

Speaker B: Yeah, for me. For me, it goes back to the armed forces training. Nine years, four different commands. Uh, yeah, it gets pounded into you. However, I was that creative long hair down to here. You know, overall, it's like I always enjoyed talking to my clients. And you get a new client, you go to the first dinner that you have with the client, and you want to get off the subject of work. And people always ask, so what's your background, Carlos? And when they tell them that I was in the Armed Forces, wow, that changed people's perception. You've seen it happen a couple of times. No, but in all seriousness, ah, uh, the armed forces was great training. Uh, but even arriving at Young and Rubicon back in those days, Young and Rubicon wasn't the most sexy super creative agency back in those days. 97 to 0607 when I left. Uh, but what there wasn't. There was definitely a rigor, A rigor for production. We had what I would argue was the best production department in the city in any agency, hands down Kenya. Go to, uh, ran a tight ship. And all you had to do is watch all the producers that I grew up with, uh, watch them now. They're all leading great, great locations, great places. So when we landed at Saatchi, actually at Saatchi, I thought it was a little bit of a wild west compared to ynr.

Speaker C: He didn't come from where I came from.

Speaker B: Then we went to Nickelodeon and, uh, when, you know, three creatives are handed down the. The keys to the Rolls Royce and you got to really build a business from scratch niche. You, uh, you really, you really start realizing, oh, oh, wow, that producer or that project manager I had, wow, they were really, really good. How do we get that? How many years did it take us to.

Speaker C: I know. I mean, we knew quick, I think we knew very fast that our success at Nickelodeon with this amazing opportunity that we had rested almost completely on the right creative operations processes. Um, and because there were very little when we were there.

Speaker A: So, uh, how do you think about blending, like creative process with creative mindset? Are those two distinct things and, uh, how do they play with each other and what I mean, by that is, I think there's been such a focus on process over the last five, 10 years as there's been this growing pursuit of scale and speed. And the incentives were there for scale and speed as marketing has increasingly shifted to digital first. Um, and it's all about serving the platforms, and it's all about, like, immediacy as something is trending. And, and that's become much more so. And I think what's sort of gotten lost over, uh, the last 10 years is that creative mindset, storytelling, like, what is it that we want? The audience, the individual that we're reaching out to through our campaigns, through our creative. What do we want them to feel? What do we hope that they do with respect to our brand, our products or services? And I do think we're sort of at this interesting time right now where, you know, scale and speed is becoming easier and easier and easier. Audiences increasingly are saying, yeah, we're sort of bored and, like, fed up with all this content. Uh, it's like, too much. I was at a conference recently and somebody on stage said, um, I didn't fact check it, but she's a very serious person, so I'll take it at face value. She said there was a report that said, um, you know, it was something like 53% of people said they would rather watch a field of cows than another piece of marketing content.

Speaker C: Um, I would rather watch cows.

Speaker A: I think it's very meditative. I'd, uh, love to go to your dairy farm one day. Um, but. So how do you think about, like, creative mindset versus creative process? Are they. Are they at odds with each other? Are they complementary? Like, how do you think about, like, blending those two things? Uh, especially as you're working with clients and, you know, the CMOs that you might be working with are faced with, like, the funnel and having to push more through that, like today, this week, this quarter. And it's got to show up, but you still need that creative mindset. Otherwise, over time, audiences tune you out.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I, I believe. Or, uh, we believe. I'll start. I'll speak for me through the week. Well, I think, I think first of all, like, you can't ignore what a CMO and a CEO has to deal with every day, every week, every quarter. I think what we're learning as we talk to clients and potential clients is we need to, we need to translate a bit, um, the culture first, creative culture idea that we're bringing with love and respect as an advisory firm to these in house. Teams and agencies, um, into their language there has to be some kind of roi. Now sometimes that ROI is not going to be right away. Uh, because I think what we've determined with what we've thought in our writing about what we want to do and what we're doing, it takes time and it's not for everyone. Um, I, when you say creative process and creative mindset, I feel like this is my. The way it hit me was creative mindset. If you're in a creative organization, let's start there. But I think it, you need to have a creative mindset in anything in any business. But if uh, we're thinking of a brand with an in house team, the CMO has to have a creative mindset on how he or she wants to use that, that in house team. Now it might be for efficiency and cost effectiveness because that's what she needs. But I think it's up to, it's up to the head of that in house team or maybe the CEO or maybe another CMO with a different point of view showing what the long term value are of building the brand or having that creative mindset in everything you do. So not only do you lean into them, basically they're creative problem solvers. I think I've always thought when you're on the brand side it's the greatest strength and greatest weak sometimes for an in house team because you can actually affect product or service that you're doing. But you have to build those relationships and you're not going to be the ecd. Oh, Juan Carlos is great. He's the ECD of the in house team. No, he's a problem solver that we need in this room for this business. Problem is the way I would look at it. I don't know if I didn't answer the creative process question, but I've got

Speaker B: a thought on that. Nish. But you seem to want to say something. Nish, go ah ahead.

Speaker A: No, no, go ahead and then I'll jump in.

Speaker B: Okay. Uh, what I heard is really like uh, producers, process and creative aura. Right. And to me at least because um, I feel like I was classically trained, there's no separation. Uh, as a matter of fact, uh, you know, the old teams used to be art director, writer. Then the creative technologies came into play and used to build those three person teams. And if you sold the concept or whatever, you got engaged with a digital producer or a video producer or a film producer. Right. At ynr, that film producer, when they came online, he or she was one, was part of the team. It wasn't like they were helping you do your um, your vision. They were part of it. We had discussions altogether. So coming out of that team I always felt like, like my producer needed to be as tight to me as my, my physical writing partner or somebody. So uh, at least in the teams that we've been part of, we really played that, that, that, that analogy that Pete just talked about. You know, we're all creative problem uh, solvers and the answer can come from anybo and therefore the responsibility of delivery has to be equal.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love you're saying that because like process itself, um, and I'm going to say something about process is probably going to get me in trouble with everybody listening. But uh, before I get there, I think process itself can also be a, like a creative endeavor. Right. Like to your point of that you both made is you can apply that creative mindset to anything. And I, and I'm going to assume the two of you also firmly believe every human on the planet is innately creative. Creative. We're all born with the ability to be creative. We just have to, we each have to find the right medium. For me it's actually podcasting. Um, and because I'm horrible at like expressing my creativity in other ways. Like I failed grade nine art in high school. Like my teacher used to laugh at what I drew because I'm a Gen X kid and you could laugh at kids back then in school. Um, but um, I think it can all be creative. But there is this continuous tension like uh, for in house teams, for agencies between like process which really is sort of in pursuit of scale and speed and um, really about moving the needle on the funnel and that creative mindset that sort of, I don't know if it's fair to say that more pure creative work, it's about building the brand, something that will have long term compounding returns. But it's. I, I uh, actually believe it's impossible to measure the ROI of that and I think it's, it's almost folly to try and do that because it's almost like to me that's like marketing or brand faith. Um, you just believe it but you can't see it. You can't put it on a spreadsheet. You go, this will be valuable uh, in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. And if we are truly committed to the long term then we invest in that. Um, and I'm wondering increasingly if both those can coexist within the in house team or if they need to be Pulled apart.

Speaker C: Interesting. I mean, when you're talking, I think, I think we found we have to have an answer in a more immediate term. So you're like on the roi, on what we're trying to, to provide for our clients. But when you said that, it struck me like, that's a great way to put it. I think it's almost like how, how they find exoplanets now like, that are really far out. Like, they don't. Can't look directly at it to tell you it's definitely there. They have to look at a star and wait for the light to change. You know, if the, if the telescope is aimed at the right angle at the right time, and it happens enough times like, oh, there might be a planet of this size that's going around, so you can't really look at it. If you look at it directly, you don't see it. So I think that's, that's. There is no tangible, like, immediate stuff, uh, immediate, uh, result on the ROI sometimes. But we, we're trying to find what that answer is. And I, I think again, in our experience, um, we never thought of operations as separate. So it was, it was. And this might have been our own limitation of the language or the idea, but it's, it's. If we were at Nickelodeon and we had, um, you know, we had a briefing. Ah, we had 48 hours to come up with an idea and then we had to pitch it to marketing. And sometimes it would be this quick. Uh, and then we'd have two weeks to, um, put together the production. And then we'd have a total of five more weeks to shoot it or something crazy. Right? And it'd be on the air in six weeks or eight weeks. We would have to come up with, I mean, the, the guiding principle we had was what's the best we can do? What's the best creative idea that satisfies the, the business challenge of the brief that we can do for the budget and the time we have? So we're not going to say, oh, it would be great. If we had more time and more money, we'd do this. So we had to have a creative process. And I'm going, this is not operations really, but that he developed, which is kind of a 48 hour, like, go away, figure stuff out. We had a writer's room approach too. So a bunch of people in a room together coming up with no egos, helping each other on a brief and then come back in 48 hours with like, nuggets and then these guys would. The ECDs would kind of pull out. Okay, this is, this has, has potential. This one might be the better idea, but we don't have enough time to develop this one. This is going to take too long, by the way.

Speaker B: That takes time, what you're saying, because you make a lot of mistakes along the way. We got super greedy at the beginning of Nick. We would have debriefs that we got were just so amazing, you know, but the budgets weren't there, uh, as many in house people can affect the ambition didn't match the brief exactly right. But something that I learned from Pete back in the day, he was always. He has this demeanor, very humble, very straightforward, transparent with clients. And instead, instead of, instead of pitching ideas that we were like half a million million dollars, he, uh, would figure out, uh, how to get out of the clients. How much money do you really have for this? All right, let us come back and we'll bring back what we can do. And many times what we came, came back with clients were like, whoa, this is way more than I expected. So we didn't. We approached it as a one team, one solution, driven.

Speaker C: And I think, you know, I mean, this is not a unique thought, but like creativity needs restrictions. And I don't mean that processes restrictions, but it is kind of guardrails. You're kind of always going out of process most of the time. But if you can, if you're adrift in the offshore a little bit, you can kind of see where the beach is, uh, where you should be. Right. And I think, I think what we found too, what we did at Nickelodeon, what happened to Cartoon Network even before that, um, uh, Lego is a different animal. But, um, everyone that touched the project was part of that project. It wasn't a conveyor belt. It was like everybody, we didn't have time to. Everybody was on the briefing right away, uh, and everyone had a vested interest in, um, how that project came out. And so if you're a project manager, a producer, a creative, if you were the ad salesperson, we wanted you to be proud of that spot. And in our team, we would have people that weren't, quote, creatives, but maybe on the process side or the operations side, um, talking about their favorite work that they were part of. And that makes the creative team look at process in a different, seamless way. It's invisible. It's part of what we do.

Speaker B: There were some agencies that I was very inspired back when I was in the agency side that had their account executives actually carry a portfolio of the Work that they actually help sell or shape. Uh, we talked about doing it with our team for a bit, especially with our project managers because our project managers in our outfit at NIC had to do both. Account management pm Right. And they were our first line of defense when it came to the uh, ideas that we were pumping out. You know, I would, I would always be like talking, doing our creative session. And as soon as we concluded and we picked that one, two, three things so said please go straight to so and so and and enroll them on the idea. It wasn't about share the idea, enroll them in the idea. I want that account executive, I want that producer feeling the idea and if they don't feel the idea then we need to make them feel the idea because that's how um, collectively everybody stands up and picks up every corner of the table niche and, and, and, and you just run with it.

Speaker A: So I, I think you guys are sort of like hitting on. What I'm getting at is I do think there's a pretty big difference between mindset and process because I think what processes become is very regimented. Pe use the term conveyor belt. And in a lot of in house teams or external agencies creative is run like a conveyor belt. Um, and there was a time and place for that. Um, and I was part of advocating for way back in the day, um, and back in the day means like five years ago. Um, but I think it's like it's more the mindset now that I think is critical. And that's why I'm fascinated by the work you folks do at Love and Respect is you go into these organizations. Um, I think what you're looking for first is like defining what their current creative culture is and how is it serving or not serving the brand, uh, for what they need to do today and over the long term. So talk to me a little bit about like when you walk into an organization, what are the questions you're asking to sort of determine what is their creative culture? Like how do you go about defining a creative culture? So somebody's listening and maybe running an in house team and they're not yet ready to bring in a firm like yours, but they wanted to find their creative culture so they can go look, I wrote it down. Um, we all agree this is our creative culture. Uh, like talk me through that.

Speaker C: Sure. Well, um, follow me on this. Yeah, so I think uh, it all starts with conversations and I think you know, obviously you talk to the stakeholders and he or she's going to say here's what I think is wrong or right with our creative culture. Usually it's what's right with the creative culture. And then you keep going down the levels, right. To see. And not only within that in house team, but then who works that in house team, Right. You're going to get the, the truth is going to be somewhere in there. I think what we find is through these conversations in this early assessment, you find the delta where the work is, is the delta between what the person that called us thinks the problem is and what the people doing the work think the problem is. And, and it's a miscommunication. I mean, you, you. A lot of what we do, we follow like the Four Agreements, basically. Um, that book, the Four Agreements, if you're familiar with that, you want to.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, we can talk about it a little later. But, but, but the Four Agreements is one of these books that, that I received at the Burning man festival. Uh, I've been going out there for 15 plus years now. And many of my friends out there know that I spent, uh, my retreat time at Burning man. Not just partying, that's part of it. But also reading and educating myself and going to a lot of, uh, seminars out there. Uh, someone way back in the day, gifted, uh, me. The Four Agreements. And uh, one of the big tenants of the. Is this. You know, be impeccable with your, with your voice. You know, in other words, it can be interpreted as being transparent, be clear, be concise. You know, because when you're concise and you're able to just speak the truth about stuff, then people really loosen, uh, up. And if you're doing the job of listening really carefully, it's exactly what Pete said. You'll discover what the leadership actually wants and desires out of it. But then the reality comes in when you really start having this conversation. So I think it's like being a bartender, right? You're sitting there. When you're bartending or a barista and you're having a conversation with somebody, you have to be able to like, loosen them up a bit. Meaning, like get them to trust you. So it's about that relationship worth it.

Speaker C: And what you, why I brought that up for you was like the, just the communication, right? There's always, I mean, one thing he shared with me years ago. So much is a miss, so much tension or, uh, conflict is just a miscommunication. And I think that what our job as an advisory firm is to find out, like, where are people missing what's actually going on? Uh, and then we look at one question. Why? Let's say we're talking to the CMO or the CEO. Why do you even want an in house team? Like what was the genesis? Why did you say, yes, I need an in house team or I want an in house team or I want my in house team to be better if it's solely cost efficiency and um, effectiveness. Right. Okay, then that's going to dictate the type of people you're going to bring in and I would argue it also dictates the type of work you want to do. And just to touch on the, the AI stuff that you've been talking about, Nish, like maybe that's a different type of an in house team. Right. Because I think what we're trying to do with love and respect is help brands and creatives have rewarding, fulfilling, uh, creative lives that and through creativity solve problems, business problems. And if your business problem is just cheapest and fastest, maybe you don't need a human doing that, you know, uh,

Speaker A: so on that if I can step in here, do most CMOs actually know what they want their in house team to be and have they got it properly aligned to what the business needs? Because what I'm hearing from you is if what you want is like scale, speed, cost efficiency, that's perfectly fine. But just make sure you're set up for that and not trying to pretend to be something else.

Speaker C: Yes. Or I think uh, in one of the people we're talking to, the reason was that. But now the ambition is the flip of that. Like now I want all these people that we hired to do this type of work, this certain level work at speed and cost. Now we want them to do all of our brand work, you know.

Speaker A: Okay, so we wanted to, we want our team to turn into unicorns.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Or exactly. Or to. And it just. So it could be, you know, it's unfair because that's not who you hired. That's, that's not why they're here. Could they, some of them maybe develop into that? Yes, but that's going to take some time. Um, I applaud the ambition, I think, I mean we've posted a few times this kind of theme on LinkedIn. It's like, you know, the, you know, the, the commitment to just speaking with in house teams. Your commitment to your ambition or your ambition should show in your commitment to your team, if that makes sense. Like you're going to invest in your team, you're going to take some time, you're going to look at your Processes, I mean all that is is can, can, can be cause friction, right. And take time. And a lot of CMOs and CEOs

Speaker B: don't have that time. That's why we, one of the niche, uh, one of the things that we implement, you know we've been talking about interviewing people and talking to people, but we productize that entire thing into a product that we call the Clarity study, which seeks the truth. You know, and it's about sometimes the CMO really, really believes that this is the way to, to solve the problems, create an in house agency. As we know, CMOs last a uh, year and a half, two years on average. So that champion of that idea sometimes departs and you find all the other agency uh, leaders having to prove themselves or prove the model to it. So our take on declarative studies, trying to get all the parties that have a stake at the table to really, really put their cards on the table. If the CEO wants the in house agency because of ABC reasons, does the CMO understand that? And that's the person who's implementing the team really on board. Is there the right budget? Is there right reason to do it? Whether it's tactical, uh, work or like one of our clients wants to go full tilt with, you know, full formation of a team that allows us as practitioners to be able to look at that and allow the entire team, and I consider my clients the team. Right. Everybody on the same room, on the same page. And that allows us to move forward.

Speaker C: And, and I would just add like it's. The interviews are. Yeah. Some depending on the person. Right. There's introverts, there's extroverts, there's people that don't want to talk to consultants, there's people that don't want to talk to us. Um, but it's, it's, it's trying to get stories out of them. Right. To have a conversation. And it's sometimes you know, like, you know Nish, you're a podcaster, like some stuff that's in between the lines is where the truth lies. Right. And that's, that's what's exciting for us to, to work through.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's one uh, thing I've been talking to a lot of companies about recently is um, and uh, I promise that both you and our listeners, I'm not going to go on the uh, AI tangent today. And um, but it seems like the real work is the conversation. Um, and it always has been, but I think especially now the conversation is the work, work and sounds like what you do to sort of get to that in house agency truth is a whole bunch of conversations with the executives, the cmo, the CEO, perhaps the cfo, like what do you want your in house agency to be and why? And then conversations that sort of surface. Stories from the people in the trenches doing the work, the ecd, the project managers, the resource managers, the graphic designers, whoever else, and understanding like through their stories, what is their live truth and then surfacing back to everyone. Well, here's the truth in the stories that uh, these folks are living, but others are living and believing in a different truth. And what that then creates, I assume is now we can see the gap, uh, because the gap is always different truths, different beliefs. Um, and then I guess you're left with the work of how do we bridge that gap? What do we actually want to be? What is the story we actually want to live day to day as an in house agency.

Speaker C: No, that's well said. And also, this is without judgment. Right. Like we were just trying to gather the information and it might be they are fine with it the way it is. Right. Uh, which, you know, it's not what we want to do as humans. But, but, uh, but that's, that's what we, we think. And why, why really why we called the company Love and respect and why, uh, we live that as much as we can. Obviously we're human, so it doesn't happen all the time. Uh, but, um, but we, we want us almost to be self selecting when someone that calls us right away like they're intrigued by love and respect or they, or they want it, they want to see if we really are walking the talk. And, and I think as we examined, as we were writing about what we wanted this company to be, this advisory firm to be, and we examined our personal lives and our professional lives, those are the two big words. And then our core values of empathy, trust and joy, um, of what rose to the top. And we're trying to share that with as many people as we can.

Speaker B: Nash, respect is about no judgment. Respect allows you to walk into a room, take your hat off, introduce yourself, shake that hand, and get down to a conversation where somebody feels comfortable with the idea of really sharing pain points and things that are intimate to them. Right. I'm not the best, uh, whisperer of that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I have driven my life that way. Trying to really unearth that under layer because that's where you can really help an impact.

Speaker A: Yeah. And the more we can show up in any facet of our lives without judgment, the better. Um, I think the better life we can live, right, because then we can truly be ourselves and let others be themselves, uh, with us, whether it's in, uh, a one to one conversation or a group or whatever it is. And that's true in our professional lives and in our personal lives, um, as well. And uh, you've both used the word human multiple times. Um, and uh, can I call you Wasabi? Or do we need to do the full podcast before I can call you Wasabi?

Speaker C: Okay, so I have to call him Juan Carlos, but that's fine.

Speaker A: Okay. Wasabi. When Pete was talking about his background, he was saying you helped him be a better creative and a better human. And when you and I, um, were speaking previous to today's recording, you were talking about, you and I had a fascinating discussion, um, about superpowers and disabilities. Um, and I think that is rooted again in getting to know the humans that you're going into and learning about in these in house teams. And one of the things you're looking for, and I think you're both looking for as part of your process is what is each individual's like, superpowers, um, and what are some of those hidden superpowers perhaps as well? So can you talk a little bit about that? Because again, like, for anyone listening, like, it might be helpful for them to like, sort of think and uh, go, oh, maybe I need to have conversations like with people on my team and like, like go and sort of go Sherlock Holmes mode and look for those hidden superpowers that aren't being surfaced.

Speaker B: Well, um, the whole idea really came out of the desert. It was a Burning man experiment more than anything, called Heroes and Super Villains. A camp that served, uh, Burning Ah man for about 14, uh, years or so. Now it's a worldwide community beyond just uh, Burning Man. And uh, I happen to be the happy bartender because that was my prior career to get into advertising. And I, uh, way back when, when the uh, social media game was about to get started and all that, I kind of started seeing signs professionally that uh, maybe social media, while it's uh, it's kind of like a Trojan horse, you know, it's supposed to connect you more. But I was attesting the idea that uh, maybe connection was just something that uh, people thought it could become, not be real. So Heroes of Superveillance was the idea of getting 120 people to come together and camp, uh, at Burning man. And uh, being able to get people at my bar to sit on one side of the fence over the other one and me bringing it together as a. As a practitioner, as a bartender, right? And we discussed many, many awesome subjects at that bar. And eventually through that, I realized that every camper that came to heroes, they had to wear a.

Speaker C: Uh.

Speaker B: We only had one requirement at the beginning, which was, you have to buy this cape. And the cape had two sides, the good and the bad. And my only ask when you camped with us was the moment you stepped away from the trailer or you came out of your tent. You had to choose. You had to be that character or that character. And, Nish, I got to tell you, I had some amazing times getting to understand people's characters because they were really projecting on that. All right? So through that experiment, I realized, well, interesting. What if I went back to my team at Nick and I asked everybody in the team, what is your superpower? And I did this in smaller groups and started realizing, wow, that person over there claims to be an asshole as their. As their. As their superpower. And of course, I got curious. I'm m. Like, what do you mean by asshole? I was like, I ask a lot of questions. And I told myself, wow, this person is really curious. That is an amazing power to have in a creative team. Later on, I found out this person just used the asking, uh, superpower just to get out of stuff. You ask enough questions, eventually people don't want to.

Speaker C: So they were superpowers.

Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. And, uh, and so forth and so forth. And what I realized was that when you had to take on big, uh, projects or things were dire, like, you know, we're close to the deadline. If I put the people in the room that had the right skill that I knew was their big superpower, stuff got done. And even sore, even more niche, it was about getting these people to project where their superpower was.

Speaker C: So show it.

Speaker A: I love that because. And I would encourage anyone listening, like, go and find out your team's, like, human superpowers. Because we live in such an algorithmically driven world where the way we approach not just creative work, just work in general, is like, we got to do all this stuff. And then if we're leading a team, whether it's a team of creatives or marketers or salespeople, we decide who's going to do it in a very algorithmic way, who has time available, who sort of like a Photoshop Level 4 versus 5 and things like that. But if you actually understand the human, the whole human, and what their superpowers are, or maybe like, you know, what their super villain capabilities are, which sometimes are also an asset in the right context, um, then I think leaders are in a better position to put people into their zone of genius or zone of superpowers or super villainry, and, um, serve the project, the brand, the opportunity, the challenge, as well as possible. Um, and that sort of takes me to the next. Again, you both. Your. Your whole approach.

Speaker B: Hold on. Yeah, you got to tell your audience what your superpower is.

Speaker A: My superpower. Uh, my superpower is my disability. Um, and thanks, uh, for asking. You and I talked about that. Right. Like, you, um, believe everyone has a superpower. And I also believe that. And I believe everyone has a disability, um, because, um, if anyone's met me in person, they know I have a physical disability. I have braces on my legs, I walk with a cane. Um, and over time, it's become my superpower, actually. Uh, because it's allowed me to know myself better than I would have. Uh, it's allowed me to challenge myself and become the person I am today. Um, and I think we all have disabilities if we just sort of step back and think about it. And, um, I learned everyone has a disability because one year I was in, um, Uganda, and I just felt more disabled because the sidewalks were messed up. Um, and it made me realize, like, circumstances determine superpowers and disabilities, because if somebody said, nish, you gotta walk up this hill, I'd be pretty disabled in that moment. But if somebody said, nish, you gotta get up on stage with two minutes notice and deliver a speech to an audience of 2,000 people on a topic you weren't prepped for. I am Batman. Uh, and I am. I love that. And I'm gonna do it. And I'm gonna thrive. And others that would be kryptonite to them. Um, so, um, and yeah, so I think it's important to know the superpowers and even the disabilities for everyone on your team, so you, as the leader of that in house agency, can put them in a position to thrive. Um, and. And that's sort of like, again, you both talk about, like, the human element, the humanity of it. Um, and one of the things I wanted to ask you both about is we live in this time of, like, creative automation, algorithmic campaigns and things like that. Um, and I wonder if we need to be thinking about, like, bringing the humanity back to the creative process. Uh, one idea I've sort of been toying, uh, with lately is the machine creative versus the whole human creative. And by machine, I don't mean, like AI or anything like that. I think a lot of the creative work that people do today is very like rote work, like step by step by step. Um, and, and I think the machines are going to be better at doing that. And when I say whole human, it's about again, it goes back to like superpowers. It's bringing your emotion, your intuition, your judgment, your taste, your lived experience and things like that. It's, it's the whole human. Because I think humans are weird and irrational and aspirational. Um, so how does that sort of like, does that nor how does that sort of come into the way you think about like creative culture and the way you're helping these in house teams sort of shape and mold the path ahead?

Speaker C: I mean there's tons in there. And thanks for sharing what you shared. He shared it to me before in private. But that's great that you did that. I, I think you know, and the word is now, you know, not cool anymore, but diversity, right? Like diversity of background, diversity of experience, diversity of point of view, age, uh, gender, everything. For a creative team you want different perspectives. And I was like pleasantly surprised when I landed in Denmark and I had, you know, I had mostly Danes on my team, but I had a few people from Romania, Argentina, uh, India, Southeast Asia, Spain. Um, and I'd worked with people from different places before, but in the US this is my first time outside the US working and living and I was just, it was so refreshing to have someone that didn't grow up in New York City to talk to, you know, whether or not they had a, they were from different part of the world but were living in New York City for 20 years, it was just a different perspective and you'd heard different stories when we were in between work and just hanging out. Like, um, I think find those differences in your team because that's, that's, that's the superpower of the whole team is, is, is um, how they move through the world. I mean we, you know, neurodivergence, you know, has, has come, come to the forefront in the last few years and rightfully so. The over simplistic way of talking about it would be say introverts and extroverts and back, you know, Nickelodeon, uh, introverts. Like I didn't realize we had so many introverts on the team. But like when Juan Carlos kind of uncovered that and we uncovered that we were present or I was. I'll just speak for myself. I love performing. I love, I did stand up comedy for 11 months. I, back when I started out, I, I um, I Love presenting ideas. I love getting in front of room. I would rather be prepared. I don't know if I have the, uh, that might be my kryptonite. I'd like at least to know what I'm talking about more than two minutes before. I don't mind big crowds, but I realized that I was sharing information to my in house team, presenting to my in house, interacting with my in house team, just projecting my extrovert Persona onto them. Like, well, this is how they want me to be talking to them all the time. They want me to be verbal and they don't need to see any visual things. And um, and they're not, they're going to tell me right in the moment what they're thinking, you know, so that was an education that I had. And I think those are, those are superpowers and different ways of moving through the world that you need, uh, you should identify in your teams because not only do those particular members of your team may feel overlooked, they may have to put on a mask when they come to work because they don't, you know, they're not, they don't feel psychologically safe. And I think psychological safety is also really important. But for us, a creative culture is one that, like I said at the beginning, nurtures, inspires and develops. And it's a safe space. A safe space meaning when you're not at your best. Also a safe space when you fail. You're not gonna get penalized. It's gonna, you're gonna move the team forward. And I'm babbling now, but I'm. I'm just, uh, fully an advocate of, of that. Like one, one Carlos said. I don't know, one of the places you worked, talking to. We'll just leave it at that. Talking, doing zoom calls with people. You know, realize that maybe some people, people weren't actually. They were presenting a slightly different version of themselves. And that's totally understandable. Some people want a very clear delineation between work and personal life. But if you've got like a, uh, really expensive piece of art on the wall or crazy amount of vinyl records behind you and you never talk about music. Yeah, that's, that's weird. And so like he. Or that was a way in, like, you know, where he would ask about the records behind you or the. Or why. Why is that bike. I notice that bike is always there. Do you ride like. And then it opens up a whole new part of the person again.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And it may never really like hit the, hit the work, but it's it's a deeper understanding of the people.

Speaker B: Nish, what Pete's talking about is you got to do your homework. Any industry. Right. It's not just a creative team, it's any team whatsoever. Right. Uh, whether you inherit the team or you're building it, meaning you're interviewing people because you want to. Come on. You have to work hard at trying to help that person that you're having that conversation with to facilitate, uh, the, uh, unveilment who they are, you know,

Speaker C: if they want to do it.

Speaker B: If they want to do it. Correct. Uh, but I think particularly in the creative end, it's important to understand that if you're a creative director because, uh, stories is what moves emotion, in my opinion.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. And uh, human truths is really our anchor in terms of how we carried our careers in terms of storytelling. Storytelling. So many. Often when we are interviewing a candidate for a team or what have you. Uh, the portfolio. Okay. I don't even look at the portfolio.

Speaker C: That's great. Yeah.

Speaker B: I want to fall in love with the person. The person. Right. So I'll go to the. About in their. In their website and I look and I did it with you, Nish. I was like looking down, I looked at your first role and I saw this thing that you love dogs. I love dogs. And remember. And that's how we went right in there and I went to tell me about this thing you wrote. You didn't even remember writing it, which is hysterical. And then I got to know you a little bit and then, and then I opened up and you opened up and that's the. There's no magic sauce.

Speaker C: Just common sense curiosity.

Speaker A: No, it's, ah. Again, conversation is the work. Um, and by work I mean like work should be a joyful human experience. If it's not a joyful human experience, then it's just like it's conveyor belt, it's algorithmic. Um, and that's going to get commoditized. Uh, and there isn't value in that. Uh, and again, what really keeps coming out as we're sort of talking about this meta topic of creative culture as it pertains to in house teams is it's like humanity is sort of the through line. It's a superpower that really needs to be embedded into every in house team that is going to be a great in house team. Um, it's, it's the humanity. Uh, it's the people.

Speaker C: And I think I would add. I agree. 100. I would add it needs to be an intentional Intentional decision to do that and to celebrate that and to elevate that. It's not just going to happen because you have a collection of people together working towards the same thing. Right.

Speaker A: No, you're right. It's like any other relationship, it takes work. Right. Um, and you got to, it's not a one time thing, it's an ongoing thing. And that's, I think that's one of the things that's sort of gotten lost in terms of what leadership is. But I think it's going to come back in a huge way now because all the algorithmic work, the machine work, um, the machines are actually going to do it. So what's left? It's a human work. Um, and, and Pete, you're talking about like, you know, thinking about things like psychological safety and things like that. So what are you seeing with in house teams? Like they measure all sorts of things like utilization, cost efficiency, all the things that end up.

Speaker C: Cost avoidance. Cost avoidance is a big one.

Speaker A: Exactly. Everything that ends up on a spreadsheet. Right. Um, and increasingly like trying to tie what the in house team is doing to the marketing funnel, uh, or even to the sales funnel. But are you seeing in house teams measure the quote unquote, softer things? And I hate that term softer things, but I actually think it's a hard things, um, like psychological safety, like burnout. Like are people actually in love with the work that they're doing? Do people feel seen?

Speaker C: I mean we haven't, I couldn't say we've seen that. Uh, the closest that we've seen with a brand is going, was Lego. And so LEGO measures everything because they have to, uh. Right. Just in general their manufacturing ethos or mindset. Because even though it's a creative company beloved by the world, uh, it has to have tolerances down to, I don't know what microns, uh, billions of times a year. Right. Um, they're, I guess the mps, the pulse study that, um, it's a pulse not only down but up. Uh, so as leaders, when we were there and all leaders get kind of a happiness index, uh, from their team and get uh, evaluated on a regular basis.

Speaker B: Um, it can be hard.

Speaker C: It could be. It's very, it's not, it's almost like it's like a mini 360, um, that just keeps coming at you. Right. And um, but I think I, that works for Lego, that works for the LEGO culture. I think it works for the Danish culture which is, yeah. Entwined, intertwined with the LEGO culture. Thinking of the US, I Don't know if that's the, the right way to

Speaker B: go, but can I just keep it simple?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Not sure how long people stay in the dam office.

Speaker C: That's a great idea.

Speaker B: Yeah, right. We were doing one point, we were doing 7.5 years before anybody left it. That's a great average. Right. When the industry, the creative industry, this is before COVID obviously, uh, creatives were jumping every one and a half years. Think about that Nish. If, if your creative team, half of it jumps out into another agency, another client, maybe a competitor. Like what are you really getting done every year and a half?

Speaker C: So where were you at Nickelodeon? And Nickelodeon. When we built the in house team in Nickelodeon, people were staying for seven and a half years.

Speaker B: Seven and a half years. Lego, Lego. If you stay there, we can't take

Speaker C: credit for Lego because the power of

Speaker B: that brand, uh, I remember clearly my old partner said this to me. It's like, dude, you know that people stick around here two and a half years or two and a quarter, they're likely to stay 13 and a half years. That's ah, massive.

Speaker C: That's a whole other conversation. But like there's a wall now, it's a digital wall in the new building, uh, at LEGO headquarters where every day you'll see people having their 35th anniversary, their 45th anniversary at Lego. Um, because that's a, that's, I think that's a unique story though because it's so embedded in, in the culture there. But, but um, but we did, we, in our very small way, we did. But. And again like when people left us, they left to become ECDs or group creative directors somewhere at uh, in house agencies or external agencies or starting their own companies. Way back when I was in my mid-20s at Cartoon Network, one of the things we talked about when I became a manager was I don't care how long you stay, you can stay here and get fat and happy as long as you're doing great work and you're always like improving and learning. I just want to know when you leave, you're going to something even cooler, right? And people would say at Cartoon a long time, but they would always leave for something interesting or different or you know, uh, another ambition that they had. And that's, I think that that kind of legacy, whether the legacy is the group that you create, the in house team lives on after those leaders leave. Or think of that as like a dandelion blown in the wind. Like that the culture you created in house team, those people are going to leave and Start their own in house teams or start their own companies.

Speaker A: Well, I do think every in house agency, whether they're in Denmark, uh, the United States, Canada, where I am or anywhere else in the world should start monitoring. Ah, this um, I'm sure their HR departments do, but for different reasons. And the reason is because we are increasingly living in a world where it's so much easier to copy each other that what we really need is I think every time somebody leaves, especially on the creative team, really any team, but we're talking about in house agencies. When somebody leaves, what they're taking with them is storytelling and creative institutional knowledge. Um, and it's taking some bricks out. And what that does is that knowledge maybe could be replaced over time, but now you've got a time lag, sometimes it can't be replaced. Um, and every team is, every organization is like one of those Jenga, uh, towers. Right. Um, and sure sometimes you could pull a piece out and the tower is still left standing. Maybe it's going to wobble a bit, but eventually if enough pieces go, you don't even realize it but the tower sort of collapsed. Um, and you're still doing stuff, you're still getting stuff out the door. But there's probably something long term that's related to what we're talking about at the start like that brand value and the long term value of ah, that that sort of gets eroded.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean like, like you said with the Jenga analogy, there's, there's um. You never know how that one person, not only the institutional knowledge but what that one person was doing intangibly to the relationships.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: In the, in the team or on a, or on a uh, or on a project. This is, I'll do a quick tangent way back when when uh, I'm a Star wars fan.

Speaker B: Um.

Speaker C: Is it May 4th yet? No, no. Really, but uh, yeah but no, but uh, when I heard this a long time ago when they were, when uh, they were developing Yoda, the Yoda character, like for the cg, for the prequels, um, the whoever. It wasn't necessarily George Lucas, but somebody was looking like there's something off about him. Like they decided to do the, do the CG thing for a lot of the special effects shots. But there was something off from the uh, when they had the puppet or the practical to the, to the um, to the CG version. And finally someone determined the c, the CG version when it was standing still, the ears didn't wiggle and the ears always wiggled on the puppet because they were always moving the puppet and when they'd stop, they'd wiggle like a little bit, like half a frame or two frames. When that was determined, like, oh, they like that imperfection, that little thing that seems like you were correcting something was actually for these people, for these designers, was what was actually a core visual cue for this. This is the real character. Maybe that was a stupid thing to say, but anyway. But that's what popped into my head when you said that.

Speaker A: No, I mean, it's true. It's like, you know, only somebody who was there would know that. Uh, otherwise it's going to take a long time. Uh, and also say on a tangent that there was a lot more wrong with the prequels than just that.

Speaker C: Uh, no argument there.

Speaker A: The first three were amazing. Uh, the prequels have our own Star

Speaker C: wars podcast series now.

Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah, we should do that. Um, so let's uh, let's sort of come um, back to a couple of more tactical things. You work with a lot of in house teams. You run in house teams at Lego and Nickelodeon and other places. Um, often the in house team sort of ladders up to the cmo. Um, what does a CMO wish that the in house team leader or in house team in general knew? Um, like if that in house leader could sit in the CMO's head for a day, what would they be hearing?

Speaker C: So you want, what, what's, what's the concern of a CMO that an in house leader should.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Ah, like what does the CMO wish the in house leader better understood?

Speaker C: I think it's what you said earlier. It's what the, what they're up against as far as the numbers go. Right. Sales, the biz, the business side of the business. And then how does that in house leader translate what they can do to business results? Right. And I would say short term and long term. Like you said, I think you can't ignore the long term and it's not going to be, um, something that will show up right away. But I think in my mind right now, my example, I'm, uh, the stereotype I'm giving of the in house person is someone that just wants to do great work, capital G W. And, and that's what's important, not necessarily if it moves the business or not. So that's an extreme example. But I think what we're learning with the advisory firm is as we talk about culture, first we have to have that business language and that business kind of translation. I think that's something. But I would also make it not to talk out of both sides of my mouth. It would go both ways because I think when we talk about human truths and psychological safety, I think not enough, um, executives and people outside the traditional, like creative team, right. Understand that whether it's a banner ad or a feature film, that creative team or that creative person is putting some of themselves out there and they also don't have one gear. Yeah, like, like we've, we've been told and won't say where. You know, when I challenged a brief, a VP of marketing once said to me, pete, this is not a big deal. Don't get too creative with it. Just get out the door. You know, crazy. So that's just one person. But I think I'm trying to be clear. There is um, the commoditization, if that's right, the automation, all that. Even before that we've been fighting that kind of stereotype as when we were doing creative 100% and now we're not. But, but um, creatives are sometimes seen like, oh, they're just gonna, they'll put on a green visor and sharpen their pencil with a blank piece of paper and like write that script. 30 seconds fade in and then they're done. Right? Um, when the reality is I'm taking a shower, I'm walking my dog, I'm talking to a friend, I'm having a beer, uh, and then all of a sudden, boom, the idea hits me. I think people that don't necessarily go through the world that way gets very scared by that or don't really understand that that's a discipline as well. That's something that I've been going to art museums, I've been reading books and I've been feeding my creative part of my brain so that I am, that I'm open to whether it's the universe, the muse, my inner operating system. Solving your problem with a creative solution. I think there's a translation that needs to happen between both sides.

Speaker A: I think this is one of the tensions that doesn't get talked about nearly enough. Um, and uh, I think I'll probably publish something on LinkedIn next week about this. Um, which will probably already have happened by the time this episode drops. But it's. This is. I don't know if the CMO and the in house agency can coexist. And the reason is this. Um, Pete, as you mentioned, most CMOs M, and we've all seen the studies and reports, have a 18 month shelf life because they've increasingly become um, algorithmic. In terms of their mandate and what they're supposed to deliver. It's, it's really all about the short term marketing funnel. Um, and lately uh, people on LinkedIn have sort of been bemoaning like oh the you know, other people like from like say like from revenue or even engineering are coming into CMO roles because the CMO role has really become about um, execution about like building a go to M market machine. So I actually believe that marketing operations leaders will, and this is a prediction and we all know what predictions are worth. Marketing operations leaders will eventually graduate into becoming the new cmos. Um and I actually think great in house agencies led by human first creative leaders will transition into being first chief creative officers. And then I actually think they might end up becoming the, the new supply for CEOs because I think every organization is going to have coming back to like creative mindset.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And creative culture. Every organization is going to have to be a creative machine machine. And because innovation and being a perpetual innovation engine isn't going to be a nice to have. It's going to be a must to survive and thrive uh, in the world that is unfolding.

Speaker C: Well I, I wholeheartedly endorse that. I mean I think you know again starting my career at, at Cartoon Network, uh, when I was the in house team there it was the promo team of the content creation team. Uh, but we were our own silo. We had a chief creative officer and we that chief creative officer reported into the CMO or sorry to the president. Uh, and that was, didn't realize I was going to spoil my whole career. Um what. By the time I left we were under marketing. Um, and then um, I'm all four chief creative officers um, at companies and brands, um, leading the creative teams and being part of that C suite. Um, I love the idea of them being CEOs. I mean we have, we won't name names but there's been some like really amazing advertising creatives that stepped into to um, kind of chief CEO roles. Right. Uh, creatives, uh, at least in advertising and some brands and it didn't quite work out. Um, and I think that's because they're just the first, they're just the first wave. You know. I think, I think uh, to your point, I think and what we're saying like you have to speak the language of business. Um, but I think uh, again having grown up professionally in entertainment companies, the fact that every company doesn't have a chief creative officer.

Speaker B: That's crazy.

Speaker C: Is always boggled my mind. But so I wholeheartedly endorse what you're saying about that. That'd be fantastic.

Speaker B: It would be.

Speaker A: Yeah. And uh, yeah, so we'll see how it all plays out. But um, I do think there's a disconnect right now between what most CMOs are on the line for and the potential of in house agencies to be creative engines for the organization as a whole.

Speaker B: M. Yeah. I mean why is it that it's not looked at that. I mean it's changing and that's why love and respect exists.

Speaker C: Yeah. But I think, I think part of what, you know, part of it. I mean you started it down that the path and maybe it's from a LinkedIn post, but it's this always on idea that like I can always go, it's short and you always say it's short order cook like just, just give me my bagel, just give me my grilled cheese like and don't take, don't, don't cut the crust, don't put fancy cheese in it. I just need a grilled cheese sandwich. Even though you've got an amazing artist behind the grill. Right. So I think um, uh, that unfortunately is the reality of a lot of places. And just going back to the cost avoidance. There's some places that tout some heads of in house agency that they're like look at the cost avoidance we've done this quarter number one in cost avoidance. Like that is not something just personally, it's not going to get me out of bed to, to make anything for you. Right. As a creative person. Not as.

Speaker B: But if it's the first step towards the grander vision of uh, making it, then it's okay because I mean it's, you know, people have to crawl before they start running.

Speaker C: Yes, true. You're right. You're right.

Speaker B: So. But, but uh, but. But it makes us. It just hurts our creative soul to hear that. You know, because it's like you can see it when they. In earnest, they get up in front of a conference and they're touting to, you know, as loud as they can how proud they are of that. And, and I go, I don't think

Speaker C: they get inundated with CVS after that.

Speaker A: Yeah. And um, I do think we are on the cusp of going well, I think both going back and going forward to the time of like, you know, great storytelling, great creative. Um, because doing sort of the commoditized creative, the transactional creative that's still going to be there. Ah. And I think we're going to Continue to scale and scale and scale it. Um, even if the, you know, the studies say people prefer to look at a field of cows versus uh, advertising content. Um, yeah, I do think we are going back and uh, I think if David Ogilvie were alive today you'd just be sitting back and going like yeah, I'm gonna get back in the driver's seat soon enough. Um, right. Yeah, I uh, I think we're going back to that and uh, it'll be interesting to see what happens with in house teams and where they said. I, I do think for in house leaders and others have been talking about this as well. Like Ivan Paul's from what three words, Emma Sexton that I know you guys are familiar with. Um, from um, from the community she runs and you know she's a big proponent of like in house teams aren't just there for the production work, they're there for that, like that creative mindset that sort of becomes embedded across the whole org chart. Uh because um, again we live in a world where it's so much easier to copy each other and we've been doing that increasingly over the last 10, 15 years. Now everyone's going to be doing it like with greater ease. Creativity is going to be one of the few things that allow us to keep surviving and thriving and we all need to be doing it. Um, and I think in house agencies could be, you know, the, the engine for that.

Speaker C: We believe it. That's why we created love and respect to service and work with that industry. Yeah, the community.

Speaker B: Yeah. But ultimately really to bring change to an industry that's perhaps uh, lost its way. We think that from the inside out is actually the way to revolutionize the industry and to bring it back to um, you know what I enjoyed when I first kept getting here.

Speaker A: So on that note, uh, final thoughts from each of you in terms of, you know, what makes a great creative team irreplaceable, like what makes them superheroes in their organization.

Speaker C: Oh my gosh.

Speaker B: Problem solving. Problem solving. Always coming in with that attitude and being optimistic and uh, open minded that uh, there could be a solution. I'm a huge proponent of manifestation in that sense.

Speaker C: We posted this the other day on LinkedIn that there should be some buzz and electricity around the creative team. Like when you go to where they sit or when they're in a room or on a zoom call, like if, if they're presenting to you, you should be excited. Should be the best part of your day and it should be the best part of their day. It's performance. Right. Um, and uh, taking the problem solving thing out of it. Just, just sharing ideas and, and, and trying to move people in your organization first to see if it's actually an idea that's going to work. I think um, those are a certain type of person and they all are different. Right? Introverts, extroverts, all that stuff. But there's a spark in them that uh, you should look for when you're building your team.

Speaker A: So I lied. Uh, we're not going to end on that because I have a question. What have you seen or what have you folks done places uh, like Lego Nick M or maybe seen other in house teams that you're working with. What do they do to sort of like bring that creative energy? It's not like they're not walking in wearing some weird outfit or something or some garish shoes. But what is like a rit, like what are some rituals you've seen that sort of create that container for hey man, let's just be kids again and share ideas and riff off each other and just like play make believe and let our imaginations flow. Because I think imagination is one of those things we don't talk nearly enough about. Like there's a, I think there's an imagination gap for most organizations. Uh, and I think the in house teams, creative teams in general could again like bring that back. But what are some of the rituals you've seen?

Speaker C: Well, I mean I would say I'll start with the. You say some stuff we've done but I would say the first thing you have to have a creative vision and creative leadership that actually believes it and preaches it and shares it and helps build it with the team. You're going to follow ideas, you're going to follow people and if that is what you're bringing to your in house team and they, they can help build that culture and they know that you're going to fight the fight for them, you're going to clear the road for them when they need for creatively. You're going to also inspire them. Like I think about the great leaders I work for, right? That created an environment for me to be my best creative self, uh, and best person. That's what I think it comes down to creative leadership. What we've done is we've done some silly things, some crazy things. I mean Bow Tie International Bow Tie Wednesday.

Speaker B: Uh, gosh, you're gonna laugh at this one. Um, and it's all tidying back to solving the problem.

Speaker C: You know what, actually let's Talk about. Let's talk about, um, darts. Darts. Well, darts. Darts. Do darts.

Speaker B: Darts. There's this guy. Yeah, well, actually, both of them are really, really, really, really good. Listen, we, uh. We in. In our firm, we have a division of health and wealth, and people are going, what do you mean by that?

Speaker A: Um.

Speaker B: What do you mean by that again? The Burning Man Festival gifted me a few, uh, things, uh, and those secrets were really about stress management. When we were at Nick, our team was very small. Three teams doing, at our highest point, about 700 briefs with all variety of sizes and shapes.

Speaker C: That was one crazy year, though.

Speaker B: Yeah. With that in mind, we realized that, uh, um, from experience at Y. R. I experienced stress and what it does to the body. You know, losing your hair when you're, you know, taking a shower, weight gain, etc. Etc. We started seeing signs of that within our team. I spotted signs of that on Pete.

Speaker C: Uh, you can imagine me losing my hair.

Speaker B: But, you know, one year when, uh, we had a. A production shoot with a very important client out west, um, and I needed Pete fully on. And I noticed when I landed and we met up the night before that there was something off with him. And I took a chance. We were just, uh. You know, we've known each other for a couple of years, but this is. This is a point of flex time in our. In our relationship where I kind of looked at him and I went past the professional line and I said, are you okay? And he expressed that he was dealing with some heavy stuff. He didn't tell me what. And then, uh, I offered something out of my burning, uh, man bag, and I said, hey, uh, if I can take you to an experience, um, at five in the morning, if you meet me in the lobby, would you come along? Would you be curious about it? Of course. Pete said, yeah, I'm in. And what I did is I took him to, uh, sensory deprivation tanks.

Speaker C: Floating.

Speaker B: Floating in Venice. And I explained to him that this was taught to me at a Burning man, uh, and that I have found a lot of peace. And I had found a lot of opportunity to mentally do a lot of thinking in those tanks. Uh, and so I took him in. An, uh, hour and a half later, we came out, or two hours later, we came out. He looked at me like I had three heads and goes, how much would it be cost to get one of these chambers inside our offices?

Speaker C: It was too much money. Spoiler alert.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: All right.

Speaker B: However. However what? You know what. What a big ritual came out of that because I, uh, had treated him to that, I invited him to that. Nisha, if I invited for a beer, I'm going to pay for that beer. And it's very Latino thing that we do. And, and so we got almost in, in a back and forth. No, no, no, I'm gonna pay, I'm paying. And then the idea occurred to me said to be, well, if you think this is really powerful, do you think is powerful enough to share with the team? Because it was a little kooky, a little, a little weird at the beginning.

Speaker C: You have to get naked at work.

Speaker B: At work. And he said deal. And then next time he came to la he brought our executive producer. Blew his mind. And then that executive producer took the next producer he brought to la. And so over a year the entire team went floating and it became a seriously awesome ritual.

Speaker C: It always paid forward. I mean that's just, that's just one right? And then I mean another thing we did, uh, also at Nickelodeon was passion projects. Again the more we learned about people and we were very busy so they didn't have time to work on things they really wanted to work on like for their next gig or, or, or, or not, uh, even a side hustle, just something they were interested in that, that fueled them and nourished them creatively. And so we created a passion project every six months was twice a year. Myself, uh, and my five, uh, creative directors, we each gave 100 bucks, each a cash prize. Nickelodeon or Viacom gifted us a $500 gift card each time. So twice a year, uh, and basically it was uh, pitch. You have five minutes. We went to a bar, you have five minutes to pitch your passion project. The only restrictions were it can't have anything to do with the work we're doing. It can't be non profit related. We don't want to pull on any heart, tug on any heartstrings. Just had to be something that you're into that you need some funding for.

Speaker B: We funded a travel agency. Yeah, we funded a book.

Speaker C: We uh, funded an art, an art exhibition.

Speaker B: Brewery.

Speaker C: Very, A micro is a nano brewery. Uh, anyway, so we, so the team would put come together, we'd have a nice afternoon out. Uh, then we would judge them and some people just would do it as a lark and just as a funny thing. Uh, some people had pitched like uh, soup, uh, ravioli, like soup dumplings but with ravioli. They had some funny visuals. Uh, anyway, so we all get together, didn't talk about work. We all got together and saw what other people were into and what got them excited. And we just had fun.

Speaker B: So we got to the other layer of humanity, the one really, the one that people, you know. Rightly so, because corporate America has done this idea, like, this is how I show up to work. But, uh, due to what we had been building, we were able to very quickly get to that. And I think that was one of the keys for the 7.5 years.

Speaker C: Yeah. And the other prize was I took your cube and you had my. You had my office for five days and my executive assistant. And I did not have my executive assistant for five days. So twice a year is miserable.

Speaker A: Uh, so I love all those stories. I love the sensory deprivation tank. Um, for many reasons. But two, uh, I'll share. One is it's counterintuitive for creatives to, like, shut everything off. Right. And, uh, I think that's amazing to do, and we should all do it. Like, I, you know, one of the things that's been most beneficial to me in life is, is meditating and journaling because you get quiet. And I think when you get quiet, you actually get to go inside yourself and learn yourself. And what are you actually thinking and why are you thinking that without, like, the swirl around you? And I think that will then show up in the way you approach life in general and the work. And to me, it's almost like we're talking earlier in the conversation about, if you're going to invest in brand, it's impossible to quantify it on the spreadsheet. You just have to believe. And it's just like, if you're going to invest in, you know, paying forward or just the whole team going to sensory deprivation, there's a belief it's going to pay off for that individual and for the team and the work as a whole. But you can't put it on a spreadsheet and go, oh, our Century deprivation budget was 10,000. We got a hundred thousand dollars worth. You believe, and it is deeply human to do that. Like how Juan Carlos, you did it for Pete, and then Pete, you paid it forward. Like, like, that is very human and amazing. And I, I love the idea of, like, what's your passion project? What do you want to fund? Uh, it's almost like your own little mini Kickstarter within, uh, the team. And it, it's a way of sort of understanding different dimensions of the individual, like, and their superpowers and their passions and like, the whole human. Right. Like, like, oh, you're into really, like, into, like, brewing microbrews and things like that. Or maybe you're into Wine or something else. And just the conversations that must kick off and just understanding each other and what that does for, like, team cohesion versus, you know, let's go sit and let's, uh, do an off site, um, at a cool boardroom. But we're just gonna be at a table the whole day and going through flip charts and stuff like that. It's. Let's do something that is, like, more personal.

Speaker B: I ended up using that. I just remember I'm gonna say this story real quick. In our second year at Nick, we were writing some great ideas, but unfortunately they were dying on, uh, the, the legal team's desk most times. And. And our leadership got together and we're like, okay, what's going on here? Who is a culprit? Who, you know, like, we're trying to figure out how to solve it.

Speaker C: You know, how we solved it wasn't our fault, clearly.

Speaker B: It was about relationship work. We started realizing, hey, let's give ourselves a little more time to have a conversation with the attorneys, have our project managers really identify what is so important about this project and why. That comment from legal really deflates that idea. Right. And then pretty soon, you'd be surprised, uh, within our team, our production team was into darts, and they started having afternoon dark games in the office, which, normal, I guess, for any creative outfit, you have the ping pong tables and what have you. What blew my mind was that these producers that were going in to talk to the attorneys in the morning to talk about the boards and why that comment, you know, may or may not derail this spot, were inviting those attorneys to come play darts, and you know how expensive attorneys can be. So. And Peter and I observed this, and we're like, whoa, that is an interesting notion right there. And what happened is producers started talking to attorneys. They started trusting our producers. Okay. Keep in mind that comment when you film that, make sure the actor doesn't do. And there were promises made.

Speaker C: Yeah, we just were. We related to each other as humans and not as our roles and responsibilities.

Speaker A: Well, that's a great story to wrap up on because it, once again sort of highlights, uh, one of the. Through lines from this amazing conversation. One is, conversation is the work. All work is human work. Um, and anyone listening who, ah, their executive team is saying, you got to come back to the office, say, I'm excited to come back to the office. Not to sit on zoom calls all day long, but to do the human work, to have conversations, to play darts, to build those relationships. Because it is the relationships, the conversations and the human work. Work that will propel us forward and allow us to do amazing things as individuals, teams, and organizations. And that has never been more true. So, uh, Pete, Juan Carlos, thank you both very much for doing this. Keep doing what you're doing, because, uh, I believe in house agencies are sitting on a. An Everest of potential, uh, and we are at an inflection point. And I think they can play massive roles in their organizations beyond just the way in house agencies are currently defined. They could be the creative fuel that gets embedded as part of their organization's, um, new operating system.

Speaker C: We agree. We agree.

Speaker A: All right, thanks both very much.

Speaker B: You're very much, Nish.

Speaker C: Thanks.

Speaker B: We'll see you soon.