Hire Slow, Fire Quick: Company Culture Matters - S1:E7

You're listening to creative friction, a podcast for ambitious creatives and agency owners that are looking for honest insights on how to scale their business sustainably and profitably. Each episode, we dig into candid conversations about the most pressing topics in our industry, and offer insights and resources to inspire you to take action. I'm talking about the latest and greatest in AI. It's unpacking how our industry can better represent and reflect our modern world.

We're here to guide you on agency growth, marketing strategies, and how to make a meaningful impact as a creative entrepreneur. We are back. It's been a minute, how are you? I'm good.

How are you? Good to be back. I'm a little jealous of you if I'm gonna be real honest. Why don't you tell our audience why we were on hiatus?

What did What did Mr. Jeff Mead get to get up to? Yeah, I think I mentioned it on the last podcast. But it was great.

We did a we went to Greece. Greece has been on my wife's bucket list forever. So it was his her birthday, kids had spring break. So we did two islands, we went to Athens then we did Crete Santorini.

And then on the way back, we stopped off in Istanbul for a day, which was amazing. I, I will say the funniest part, it was all amazing. What was really cool. And just like a culture shock for my kids was.

So Istanbul has this the Grand Bazaar, which is the oldest bazaar in the world, right? It's just a bunch of street shops. And and what I thought was really cool is my kids, like most kids have been in the US their whole lives. So they've never negotiated buying anything.

And so we were in the bazaar, and they were trying to buy stuff. And but you had to negotiate to buy stuff. And it was they were so nervous at the beginning to like negotiate with somebody. What is what it was like.

It was like the funnest thing for them is all they can talk about how how fun it was going back and forth negotiating with people. Oh my god, I love that I I've been big, my you know, my oldest is 11. And like teaching life skills, I think, is so important. And so like, lately, I've been really insistent that like we're at a restaurant, like I'll have him order for himself, and maybe like, give him my card to pay for the check or like, I had him buy groceries the other day.

And he like was that self checkout, we had, like, I don't know, I'm really stressed. But I'm like, rather than just like jumping them off at 18. Without lifestyles, like, I love that you're teaching them that. And, and before we dive into today's episode, you know, and I want to eat, I want to do an episode specifically on this topic.

But one of the things that you and I were talking about this week is that you you got some clear, clear creative, you know, insight from going offline. And I I'm such a big, big believer, I've seen in my own creative practice the way that that what I call is getting creative input. So, you know, as creatives we output a lot, you know, we come up with ideas and content and all this stuff. But you got to just absorb, you know, beauty and the world.

And how did that? How did that change your brain? You know what, what came through for you? That, um, you know, going into it, I kept thinking to myself, I was like, I'm doing so much client stuff.

And there's just all these ideas, kind of roaming around in my head. And how do I get those out in the first couple of days I was gone, I actually felt guilty that I wasn't opening my notebook and writing stuff down. And then finally, I just kind of gave in and I gave in, because of my daughter who is very much like a mini me version of me. And so she's super strategic.

But the the negative part about being super strategic is that she's always thinking ahead. And so I had to keep slowing her down. And I said, Hey, don't think about that birthday party you're gonna go to when we get back. Let's focus on right.

Yeah, so I kept telling her be present, be present. And then I set it enough time that I was like, Jeff, just be present. Isn't that funny? Funny the way we like our parenting ourselves in the process.

I have a vision that that I'll come to Texas, and I'll bring my kids and we'll get our kids together because my 11 year old does that way. And every morning that kids wakes up and was like, what is the plan? What is the you know? And I'm like, you know, and most of the time it actually is like the night before and there's some comfort and safety in that and there's also like, I just tell him I'm like, I don't know, bro, like, I'm just trying to be here right now.

Like I'm just trying to eat dinner like just chill. But I love that and I love that you got that opportunity to get away and an intake something to inspire you. It was great. It was yeah, I said Well, let's get into today's episode.

Do you want to introduce to our audience what we're going to be talking about today? And then we'll talk about why but but just high level, what are we? What are we talking about today? Yeah, yeah, I think today we're going to dive into the concept of hiring slow firing quick, right, really talking about company culture.

And I think it's timely, because anytime you open LinkedIn, or get into a conversation with somebody, we're always finding out about these big companies laying off, folks. Right. And, and it's, it's scary in a way, because I feel like just a couple months ago, the candidates had all the power, you know, they could pick where they wanted to go, they, they could say, No, I don't want to go into the office. And then somehow, this is now switch where people who have been in companies for years, and they're just getting laid off.

So we've seen a lot of over hiring seems to be like a market correction. So you know, we're looking at all those macro trends. And today, we want to bring it down to to our world, you know, how does this affect us as the agency owners and and what should we be paying attention to? Yeah, and it's interesting, you know, I've been on the side of the street, both inside my company, market correcting.

So I'm going to talk honestly about that today. And then I also, as a strategic advisor to many of my clients have been behind the scenes, helping them navigate, how are they going to tell their team about layoffs, and you know, some small companies, some very large ones, but I've been advising a lot of clients on how to navigate that. And let's be honest, I don't know about you. But most of the people I know that were laid off, were in marketing.

And most of the cuts I see happening, teams are in marketing. And so I have no doubt that our audience has either been personally impacted or know somebody that has, and I know a lot of marketers who are really kind of questioning what are their next steps. And and so I just think there's a lot of disruption in this space. But I want to say officially, you know, welcome back to Creative friction.

This is our podcast for creative entrepreneurs that are navigating the challenges of growing a business while staying true to their creative roots. Each episode is recorded live so guests can join and ask questions that matter to them and their business. I'm Madeline Reeves. And I'm Jeff Mead.

And today we're here to talk about hiring slow and firing quick. Okay, so let's get into it. So, so, so we, we said a little bit about the why of this, this topic in terms of, you know, layoffs, being all over the place, and, you know, folks feeling nervous in terms of like, you know, is something coming? I think there's just a lot of economic instability, uncertainty, you know, we might get a little bit into bank collapses, but that's definitely, you know, in my world I work with with a lot of folks in tech.

And so there's definitely a lot of anxiety, I would say, around money and the economy right now. And, and I can see this going both ways. And I'm curious for your take on this, Jeff. But I can see one of two things happening.

So So in my business, you know, we started to see this trajectory a year or two ago, because we as agencies were being cut from being people's budgets, and I've talked to a lot of other agency owners, and I was like, for the last year or so people are like, Oh, I can't afford to outsource. I've got to, you know, I've got to, you know, cut back my budget. And the first thing to go is typically the external people, and we as agencies are those people. So this started happening in my business a year, year and a half ago, especially with clients in big tech.

So I knew layoffs were coming I, we were like a market predictor. But now, pendulum in my space is swinging, because they had to cut internal people, many of whom were marketers, and they're like, we still got these initiatives, we got to get done. We got to hire somebody, and, you know, outsource partners, contractors, agencies are looking very attractive, because we're cheaper than having in house employees. So so yeah.

Talk to me about the agency side of this. Why do you think this is so important for agency owners to be thinking about, you know, staffing, and things like that, with all of the changes we're seeing in the employment space? Yeah, you know, and to add on to that one thing I've been seeing, which is a huge benefit, I think, for agencies, too, is that a lot of companies because they are laying off, folks, you start to lose institutional knowledge, right, all of a sudden, and there's only a handful of people that kind of know what's going on.

And, and oftentimes, when you're laying off people, you want to bring in, at least for the bigger companies, they want to bring in people who don't cost as much, right, so you start seeing all these new people walking around and, and I've seen this with a few clients where they've been working with some clients for years. And all of a sudden, they're the ones who have been around the longest, right? So when they're onboarding new people, all of a sudden, they're showing them the ropes, which which I think is huge.

But it also presents this really unique opportunity. If you're at a big enough company where as you can start going into other departments. and start saying, well, we we know how to get stuff done in this company, which is, which is huge when you're working at certain companies. Yeah, yeah, we're doing we're experiencing that right now one of our largest clients, we have been with them for, gosh, going on three or four years now.

And so, you know, I just did tradings for their expanding team on all this initiative, and now have opportunities to go to HQ. And, and, and because the the, we were brought on around a product initiative that was that was kind of like a side project for the company. And now it's being integrated across the organization. Again, where are they institutional knowledge, because we've been with the product and the development from the beginning.

And so, you know, I'm being invited back to it to their HQ to start getting all their sales leaders involved, all their marketing leaders involved. So so I can speak to that firsthand. Yeah, I love that, that insight. I also think there's a whole, you know, there, I saw this in myself, and I saw it and other agency owners have, there was a trajectory over the past couple years of like, everybody building out employees, you know, it was like, we had so much work, we wanted consistency, we wanted stability.

And, and then, you know, maybe that didn't work out for folks. I've seen a lot of people scale up a team of and then cut back, because they didn't want to manage that many people, right? Like the relationship of, you know, being beholden to making sure there was enough projects to cover your headcount. And I think it's a really important reminder to agency owners that we have a variety of ways to tap into talent and create teams that can you support your projects that are not, you know, employee employer relationships?

And, like, I don't know about you either. But I think it's true. Like the most common questions I get asked in coaching situations are, you know, when should I hire? Should this be an employee?

Should this be a contractor? And also, like, this person is really not working out? I should fire him. How do I do that?

Because one, like, nobody likes firing people, but to like, if you've never done it before, like, that's really scary. So, yeah, yeah. And, and I think it should always be a little bit scary, right? Like, no matter, no matter how often you've done it, and it shouldn't be something you go into saying, Well, this is gonna be a piece of cake.

It just, it just hurts emotionally, especially when you know, people, right? Like, you just get caught up in the oh, man, you know, school starting or whatever season it is you just use, if you have any empathy, then you're going to say, Man, I know that they're dealing with with x, and then not having a paycheck could really affect them. So yeah, that happened. For me, I had some restructuring that I knew needed to start happening, based off of your future reviews, as I was going into q4 Last year, but then it was like, I don't want to lay off anybody around the holidays.

I feel like doing that. But then, you know, what does that do to my cash flow to to drag it out for a couple more weeks or months? You know, so? Yeah, I relate to that.

And, and I also think that, you know, there is this thing, and I am speaking personally, as an agency owner, when your business grows, you know, in an agency growth can oftentimes be, you know, it can be really inconsistent. It's like, Oh, we got this big new project. Oh, they fell off. Oh, my God, we got this, oh, my God, it fell off.

We gotta go find you know, and so and, and, you know, what that can lead to is like rushing into these hiring circumstances, for the sake of having more hands around to help because like, Oh, my God, I can't execute this on my own. But when we hire too quickly, I think we do that to the detriment of our culture at our team. And I don't know, I'm just I'm curious what you would say about, you know, you know, lessons you've learned along the way, like, why, why is this notion of hire, hire slow fire quickly, so important?

Yeah. And I think the whole notion of hiring slow, and slow is different for different folks. Right. Like, you know, I think one thing we don't want people to think is, is dragging your feet, right.

You don't want to drag your feet, and you don't want to put your team in a bad position where they're just overworked and overstressed. Yeah, right. And so it's then to me, it's really about how can you be intentional about bringing somebody on board? And I've often found the best thing to do is is always be looking.

Right, you know, really being strategic about bringing certain folks on board. And I know when people hear that the thought of always hiring just doesn't make sense, right? Because if you meet somebody who's great and you don't have an opportunity, then you're like, Well, what do I do? But the truth is you You know them.

And I think you have honest conversations and say, hey, my, my agency is growing. And we're looking for people like you, but I don't have an opportunity right now. But I would love to keep this conversation going, because you never know. Yeah.

And I think that dialogue is great to have with people. Yeah, I don't think too, I think that's a really good way to make it about the culture, like make hiring about the culture, because to me, and let's be clear, there are specialties in this space, you know, they're like, I'm not gonna just like hire a salesperson and pretend they're a graphic designer. But but there is a lot that can be taught and quite frankly, has to be taught because it's always evolving, right? You know, you know, strategy is, you know, something that's always evolving.

Social media is something that's always evolving design even is something that's, you know, so so there's some things that it's like, we're always going to be learning anyways. But there are some things like values and customer service and things that I don't think can be taught. And so if you know what those elements are, in your culture, and why they're important, and how you go about doing things, and you know, what you believe in and what you stand for, and the types of clients you serve.

If you happen to come across a person who clicks with all of those things. I love a like, Let's build a roll around your excellence and expertise, like let's find a way to fit you into this puzzle, based off of the superpowers you bring to the table, because you check all these boxes, which I would argue are more important than your skill set. I don't know Do you agree with that? Do you agree that like the culture like because for me, and I say this as somebody who's like, had to fire a lot of people who weren't a fit for not just my current company, but other companies, too, because I've been managing people for a long time now.

Right? Yeah, I do. And I go. So first, I think culture is really all that matters.

Yeah. And, and it's so tough, because it's really hard to communicate what your culture is, to somebody you're meeting for the first time, right? Because you're living it. So, you know, you could say where, you know, we were always going to go the extra mile for our clients.

Well, that can mean a lot of things. Right? It could mean that you're taking text messages at night. Yeah.

You know, like, and so it's really just about how do you communicate that to somebody when they're coming through the door? Yeah, I think I think that's the really hard part. But I do think culture is, is the one thing, obviously everything else, right? Like they have the skills, they have the competencies.

If they have all that checked, then I think it really is about just making sure that that person fits culturally. And I do want to be cautious when I say that they fit culturally because I know, there's a lot of agencies that I worked with. And I'll go into the agencies and I'll say, oh, there's not much diversity here. And I don't think it's intentional, like truly, most folks I work with know my values.

And so I usually don't get agencies that are just like, you know, to hell with diversity. Yeah. But it's just really interesting to me. And it could be diverse in very different ways.

But I just I'm like, wow, this is really interesting that there's just no diversity here. And so then when you start thinking about, we want somebody that fits culturally, I just want to be cautious. Like you do want people that fit culturally, but you kind of got to bring in people who think differently differently. Yeah, I'm really glad you said that.

Because culture can become very monolithic. And like my role is like, I only hire unicorns, but like, I want a whole, like, I want us to be every color of the rainbow. Like, like, I'm like, We are the My Little Pony. It's like we are clearly I like my little bunnies, but and dyeing my hair, wild colors.

But but if you are really explicit and intentional about your values, that you can actually without having to say or, or express any intent around diversity, you will just have people like that show up, which is really cool. Like, that's something I'm most proud about our company is that like, you know, we are like, I think we're close to majority queer. Like, we have like a much higher percentage of diversity inside our org than the average average company without actually ever having to be like we need to hire, you know, more diversity, like it's just because of the way we show up and share about who we are pretty explicitly.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's interesting. I actually have a car Aren't clients who and you know, we were having a conversation, they're looking to hire some folks. And they did diversity, just, you know, they look like the United Nations. But they've had some, some people who've left and who've joined and, and now we're talking, they're like, We don't have any white people working here.

And you know, it's just, it's crazy how that could happen. So it's, you know, just something to be cautious about, I think, for the listeners is, you know, culture, you definitely want to get to communicate your culture, but, but not when everybody looks and talks exactly like you. Right? Yeah.

benefit the client. Well, and I also think, and you brought this up is like, there's this importance of also like, respecting the culture you've built with the people you have, like, like to me, like, there's nothing more disruptive and quite frankly, disrespectful to a team of like, okay, like, we've really worked hard to, like build this vibe, build this connection, right way of doing and being, and then you like, bring in somebody who like, isn't gonna gel with that, and everybody's like, cool.

So we spent all the test time like saying, These are the things we care about and believe in. And now we've got this Rando running around who like, then, you know, your team will like, not necessarily trust you. I feel like that's a way to break. That's so true.

That's, and that's the perfect word to use. Like, you know, they believed in you, and the minute you go and hire somebody who is not cutting it, then they're like, huh, they were just talking all that mess. They don't really believe this. Yeah, I'm a big, I think this is really important to involve at least managers, if not your whole team, in the hiring process for this exact reason, so that they can be like vibe check, like, you know, yeah, like, is this the person?

Or not, you know, so. So, I think that that's really important. What about it, you know, for you, like, I want to, I want to switch gears and talk about, like, you know, this complicated question of like, when do you need that person to be, you know, a full or part time employee? And when, because that, because I think this is the thing, right?

I, I think what happens, and I put myself in this camp, and you probably have lots of clients who do this, where it's like, we just need help. And, and I see, you know, I work with so many different post services, business owners, and everybody just goes straight to like, Okay, I gotta hire an employee. And there's like, there's a, there's definitely a gradient here for agencies. So walk me through that.

Yeah. And I think, and we talked about this, you know, when we were thinking through how to approach this conversation, but I think one of them is the, you know, can I contract with somebody first? You know, I think that's always a good way to approach it. But there is a, you know, to be honest, that's a luxury for a lot of people, most people can't say, Sure, I, you know, I'll consult with you, or serve as a contractor for a couple of months, while we feel each other out, you know, because in that time, there's a lot of people will say, I need something.

You know, that's, that's gonna be a more long term, I can't take the chance that you may say, this isn't working out. But I think that's, I think that's a really good approach, if you can, you know, like, really just work with some folks. Just to feel each other out. And, and but what it also does is it makes sure that you really have a need, that's long term.

Yes. That's, that's what gets a lot of people because, you know, to your point, there's, there's tons of people like, Oh, my God, we, you know, you'll be going for an RFP, or you'll be going for a proposal, whatever it is, you get the business. And the minute they say, yes, then you and I'm sure you felt this, you're like, oh, shit, I'm gonna get to work exactly. I can pitch the vision, well, I can sell you anything.

Ya know, I'm guilty of this. And, and don't make it real personal. So, so, so fearless, fearless foundry, we scaled from one to 12 people in less than three years. And that might not seem a lot, you know, if you're working inside of a pretty corporate environment, but anybody who's built a business will know that it's really fast growth.

And when I got to those 12 people, you know, there was a moment of pride in it a little bit because we got so many like narratives around what success looks like. And I'm like, Look at my huge team, but really quickly, was like, You're not doing work you need to be doing, you know, why am I paying you? Wait a second, that project fell off this person not really need anymore, and so have done a lot of restructuring and reorganizing and the one big thing that I am prolific believer in now is, you know, iunknown Try it out 90 days, you know, feel your way into it, pick a project work together around that one project and a contractor relationship.

Like you said, see if there's more here, before you, you know, marry somebody set up a state employment agreement, set up unemployment insurance, or out that payroll cost, etc, etc. And it's hard because I feel a little bit like I backtrack, sometimes I when I started my agency, you know, was was very much pushing against the contractor model, like, you'll go back and read articles where I was like, everybody deserves to be an employee. And like, the social justice side of me is like a big believer in like, paying people well, and giving employee benefits.

But, but I think I was a little naive. And now, you know, with six years in as a business owner, I'm like, Yeah, I'm not just gonna give 401 K's away, like, I'm not gonna give like a 4% match to people who were like, not going to be here long term. I, you know, I talked about this thing I call the pie holder mentality, which is like, you get to be an employee, if like, here's the pie. Like, we're all responsible for, like sourcing the ingredients, baking it, making sure we don't burn the thing like, right, I'm sure that everything's doled out, if you just want to show up and eat pie, like, that, ain't it like, like, this is a company we're building.

And if you just want to show up and collect your money and leave, that's great. But that's also not what it means to be an employee to me, because an employee is invested in the vision of the company, and then therefore gets different benefits from a contractor because they're invested in the company. Yeah, yeah, I like it. And you know, I'd also add to is just, as a business owner, you just have to match your expenses with revenue, right?

Like, as crazy as it may seem, when you get that project, there's a party, you have to say, say, this project is only for the next six months, right? If I bring somebody through the door, and if even if I was to hire them tomorrow, they're not gonna be up to speed for another three months. And then we have three months left on the project, and then I have to go out and find more work just to keep them busy. So So to your point, I really, really like the use of contractors, and just having a network of folks that you can tap into, I really liked the model of, you know, pick your core services.

And, you know, I've said this a bunch, where, what are your two or three core services, and that's what your employees are for. And then there's all this opportunistic stuff. You know, like, I'll give a good example, I had a, had an agency that they did experiential, and, and so their bread and butter was putting on events for people. And but there was something going on, where all of a sudden, whenever somebody came to them, they were like, and can you put together a website for us?

And then can you do to social media for the event, but their bread and butter was events, you know, everybody in the office was an event producer. And so they started hiring, you know, social media people. And I was like, this isn't your business, but to your point had the same situation, it was like, but we're busy. And, and we'll find work for them.

Because this is what people are looking for. It's like, yep, people want it. But it's not your business, you know, like, and it isn't something you want to morph into. And so and, and I think the other thing is like, and do you know how to manage a social person for like, right, because like, that's the thing is like, it gets very tempting to be the jack of all trades, but then you become a master of none.

And you have all these people running around who like you're not sure if they're doing their job well, because it ain't your area of expertise, right? And so and then, guess what, you run the risk of losing the client, because they're dissatisfied with the quality of work you're doing over here in the area that wasn't. And so I love we call it having like a bench or like a referral roster. Like I'd much prefer pulling in people and saying, they're an expert in that they're an expert in that, rather than pretending that we know something that we don't I've got to be honest, I hate big banks.

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So Emily, has this great question about you know, she, she loves, you know, this conversation about fitting into culture, and marketing, always involving so many jobs to do. And she's like, I've always been on spa and solo teams, you know, and, and she's like, you know, what do I really like doing? What what do I apply for? Should I work as a contractor?

You know, it's kind of the core core question of like, how do you assess when you're coming into an or, you know, where you should you should fit in what kind of roles you should apply for, if you're on the side of not being the agency owner, but being the creative coming into a company? And, you know, how do you find work that aligns with your expertise? What would you what would you say, Jeff, like, how do people make this assessment, my thing is always the, you know, come in as the expert, when I am working with contractors, or when I'm helping agencies find contractors, you know, ideally, the employee should have a bunch of in house knowledge, whether they're a creative agency, whether they do media buying whatever it is they do, but there's going to be some times where they have to step out, because the client says, Hey, we know, we know, we want this, but we also want this add on bolt on service.

And so at that point, they're looking for specialists to help them get it done. And I think the way to stick out nowadays is really just, you know, being that expert, and so whether you're a videographer or whatever, something that you can, you know, just say this is what I do, and that's what people are hiring you for. And then when you get through the door, you know, then you could tell them about all this other stuff that you do. And so then you start to add value, but but I think you kind of keep it simple and say, This is what I'm great at, you know, this is my craft, just in terms of marketing yourself.

And then and then like I said, when you get through the door, then you can unveil, right? It's, I think the analogy is almost like dating, you know, there's, there's so many things you could tell a potential partner about yourself. Right, but you don't say all of that. Yeah, I mean, there's some people who do a weird first date I've been on.

You don't get a second one. We'll just Yeah. How you approach her question? You know, one thing that comes to mind, so I agree with you, you know, figure out what is the expertise?

You know, she asked this question like, What do I even actually like doing? And I think, especially for people who are, you know, oftentimes when we've worked in corporate we'd come be we become marketing generalists, particularly if we've worked on small teams, you know, so we know enough to be dangerous, you know, in a bunch of areas, but figuring out what area do you love? And how can you master some deeper expertise if you don't already have it? And this is an area where for sure, go out and take a course get a certification get something that also exemplifies you know, you're you're a seasoned expert in in an area.

And also, I would challenge people, especially if you haven't, go back and listen to our episode around AI and chat GPT and how it's going to change the marketing industry. Because I believe that beyond the skill, you need to also really figure out how do you position yourself as a strategist because at the end of the day, agencies have the option of find somebody on Fiverr they have the option, you know, to find somebody in an overseas market that's, that's more cost effective.

We have the option to use Chappie GPT for copyright like there's so many other ways we can get that work done better, faster, cheaper. So if you are a you know, entrepreneur, you know a solopreneur looking for contracting work, you need to sell me on how your strategy is the best so that I can justify paying you more than some of those other options. And you know, that's a whole rabbit hole in itself you know that that we'll get into but, but sell me on your strategy sell me on your brain and what it can do that's different than anybody else.

Because, quite frankly, let's be honest, there's a lot of marketers in the world there's a lot of people who can write copy. I want to hear about your how your strategy has led to real success. says that are gonna then turn around and be great for my clients to know. Yeah, I like to point.

Yeah. And just a reminder, you know, love, love this question from Emily. So if you have any questions, comments, feedback, and while you're watching this live on LinkedIn, please, please share to keep the conversation rolling. But I, I want to talk a little bit more about hiring.

And then I want to flip the table and talk about the the inverse, which is the firing side. But, um, but you had this great point that you were gonna make about employee onboarding, and how I think a lot of people screw that up. And then it results in being like, oh, we need to let this person go. Because we didn't really, again, in that rush to, like, we need help, we don't really bring people into the work.

So talking about what sucks what it takes to really hire slow and hire successfully in your Yeah, and I think the concept of employee onboarding is huge. Because there's, there's many of agencies who are just super busy. And as a result, there's no true onboarding process. Right?

And, and essentially, what happens is, you'll have the leaders of the agency saying, Hey, we brought a specialist in for reason, because we don't have the time to train them, we just want to hit the ground running, which is fine on the surface, right? If you want to bring in an expert that can hit the ground running, but you got to let them know how stuff is done in your world, right? Like, there's plenty of people who are super talented, but you know, how does how does work get done at like, Fairless, right?

You just want them to know the ins and outs of doing stuff your way. And so I always liked the concept of when you bring somebody on actually having a plan that's, that's laid out for the next six months. And I don't mean diagramming everything. And they're going to do what I do mean, really thinking strategically about what should this person accomplish their first month here, and maybe it's just like, you know, something simple, like, you know, meeting with all the employees meeting with the clients that they're going to work with?

And that's a check, right? And then you check in on them there. And then What should their world look like it 90 days. And I think if you can do this consistently, for the first six months, they get your culture, right.

And so you're communicating to them, the stuff that really matters, whatever it is that you include in that first six months, now they know what matters. That's, that's truly how you onboard somebody. But usually, that process doesn't exist, right? I think, as an industry, we're just notoriously bad, like training people.

You know, people come from big companies, and they expect to be sent to conferences and workshops, and all that stuff. And, you know, in our world, small agencies, we're like, ain't got that budget. I need you because I thought you knew what you were doing. And so I think is just, you know, really being strategic about, alright, I have this role, what should this role be doing for the agency, and if I know what the role should be doing for the agency, I just have to tell the person, this is what we expect, and then just kind of really having that check in.

That's, that's what I really think of when I think of kind of, not only hiring slow, but just onboarding someone to your team. Yeah, this one was, you know, as little like, I need to work on that one. Because I'm part of it is hard, right? For me, as a founder, I'm very much wired in this, like, let's go, like, let's, let's get it done.

And, and so, you know, if you get to the point where you have, you know, four or five, six people, you know, having somebody on your team who can wear more of that HR tat and be more responsible for this, or even just in the, you know, even if you don't have it fully man, having chickens that 3060 90 days, having, and then after that once a quarter, that's an easy way, for me, at least to like, that's how I hack my brain is like, okay, those meetings are on my calendar all year long.

So that I know, to prep for that meeting, I know to do the check, like, and that that helps, you know, to ensure that I'm staying in a pulse with my team and clear with my expectations for the roles there and etc. Yeah, and I think it has to be one of the leaders. It doesn't necessarily have to be the founder owner, but one of them has to be the one that says I'm gonna meet with people and make sure that they know how to do stuff our way. Right.

I think that's key. Yeah, yeah. Agree. All right.

Should we talk about firing people? Absolutely. You asked me a question. What do you want to ask me because I've done a lot of this lately.

It feels like Yeah, and it's and it's truly not fun. I would say, you know, what's interesting to me always is when I think about firing people, what What do you think are the consequences of not firing somebody that you know should be fired? Right, like just kind of holding on to them? A little bit too long?

I think it poisons the Well, I think it's, it's, it's like that one bad apple thing. Right? And so, especially if the firing is performance related, I think it's I so I'll segment my answer. If it's performance related.

I think it can really poison the well. Because if you have said, Here is the bar like this is our standard, we, you know, excellent customer service, clear communication, high quality work product, yada, yada, yada. It'll poison the well, because somebody's not performing to that level. And everybody loves scram, like they can get by doing 70%.

Cool. Yeah. And if people and I think it's often a subconscious thing, like, like, like, even top performers, will be brought down. And I remember, I had a client a couple years back, and I was talking to him about growth and teams, and he was somebody I really respected.

And he was like, a player's must wear, but a players have no fucking time for C players, we ain't got time for that shit. And I was like, say more. And he was like, have you have an ATM, they only want to be around 18 people, it's like, when you're in a class project, you don't want that shit, a kid who's not going to do any of the work, you want other A players, we're gonna get it done, we're going to be done a week early, it's going to be fantastic. Had a players hire other A players.

And so that for me is like, Okay, if you start to have some V players, or worse, you have some C players. What does that do? Culturally, to your, you know, how does that make the players feel like I'm over here going up above and beyond and, you know, so and so is shitting the bed on us and affecting the client. So that's the other thing is culturally, if it's not performance related, but it's cultural, you know, they don't share the company's core values, they don't participate in team meetings, they, you know, number one I had for a while with the pandemic, that was really hard, because we can't, couldn't legally enforce it.

But like, I'm always somebody's always camera off, you know, so they're not connecting with the team building report. They're not good at client communication, all of that can just emotionally affect your team, because then it puts the burden and responsibility of carrying culture and communication on other people when it shouldn't be their job. When we should all be pitching in. And then also it can affect your clients.

And that's when it gets really, you know, that's when then when I know it's gone too far is like great. I lost a client because of this person. Yeah. And like, what baffles me, you know, still to this day is how sometimes employees won't get that like, unlike clients pay your salary.

Like, exactly, that's the map. Exactly. You fuck this up and keep fucking it up. Like you're leaving here.

Yeah, yeah. Like, like, we are not going to keep you if we keep losing clients. And yet somehow that doesn't add up for a lot of people. They just think like, it's cool.

I just get to show up and do shit work. And so I don't know, those are those are all the consequences. And I say that as somebody who's felt that firsthand and made those mistakes, because, you know, that we just needed to get the project on it was the holidays. You know, I just needed the help.

And it was better than not having any help, you know, those sorts of things. And also, again, the procrastination it sucks to be the leader. It sucks to fire people. I've never once done it with glee.

You're it you know, but part of being the business owner sometimes you're the bad guy. Yeah, no way around it. Yeah, have you what's interesting now is have you ever felt, oh, I need to fire this person. And then a couple of weeks later said, Wow, I was wrong about that.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

I joke that like, you know, I'm always I'm a hard leader, like I have high expectations of people. And, and I've worked on myself a lot over the past. You know, gosh, I'm like, How long have I been leading teams at least a decade. And, and, you know, one of my biggest weaknesses as a leader is that I'm an Enneagram three, I'm an achiever, I'm on 150% kind of person.

So I held that as the bar for everybody all the time. And so in my work as my coach, I have to get better about one allowing myself sometimes to be like, you know, hey, like, it's not gonna always be 150 every day. And also like, let's just expect 100 from like the people I employ. And, and and also, let's be empathetic and understanding that like shit happens in life outside of work, and sometimes, you know, people are not going to do tell you it's not my business always as an employer what's going on in people's lives, but just in the same way I would want, you know, empathy and understanding that something is big is affecting me.

And again, I struggle with this because I'm the kind of person who's like, Oh, my leg is bleeding, but it's okay. Like, I'll be up the meeting. I'll be one minute late, you know? And so I have to work on this.

Right, right, right. There's also a spectrum here. There's also a gradient here where I, so So prior to having my company, I was a corporate leader. And I would say, I was not an asshole, the boss, my team genuinely liked me.

But I was I was like, I only had a player's, I only had like, clones of me, basically, right. And then I feel like I went too far in the other direction, where in my desire to be likable as a leader, was like too giving and too flexible and too, like understanding. And then I ended up in all these situations in circumstances where I was taken advantage of. And so what I've now put in as as kind of a gradient is one, I have somebody who oversees HR, who's not me, and to whom I have a lot of, this is how I'm feeling about this person.

And I, and I bounce those conversations off of other people, whether that's like, coach, whether or not that's my HR person, whether that's like a friend who's a fellow employer, like, who are I mean, who's an entrepreneur who like runs a company, so I kind of like, like, I stress test that decision, like, Where's that coming from? Is that like, my ridiculous expectations of people? Am I being inflexible or not understanding? And then I give it a little bit of time, because like, I'm like, one, have I given people direct feedback and the opportunity to of course, correct.

Like, and, and that was a cultural problem in my org for a while, was, again, in a desire to be likable and be seen as nice. I was not giving direct enough feedback of like, Hey, you really fucked that up. Don't do that again. And also, like the client said, and that we lost the client, like, I wasn't giving people that, right.

Yeah. And I see this commonly in all female agencies, and agencies and organizations that close, we're, we're, we're all just being like too nice to each other. And like, that does not lead to good culture. And it doesn't lead to clear expectations as to like, this is the role.

This is how you succeed in the role. And so now my process is, you know, get get feedback, get vibe, check from other people. Make sure that prior, I've given an opportunity for direct feedback and course correction. And then, you know, give it some time, but not so much time, right?

Because I've been in circumstances where I've let it drag out for six months or longer. Just thinking like, they'll figure it out. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

And I'm like, no, no, like, I should have fired them along. So so give it some time, right? Well, like if it's more than a month, and nothing's changing, and there's no conversation and accountability around it. It's like, No, this person doesn't really care.

Yeah, when firing has to happen. So with your experience, walk us through, what does it mean to you to fire quick? Um, um, so first, it is, you know, it really depends on the circumstance, I have to say. So I'll give two examples, radically different experiences.

I was inside of an org where I was a senior level director, and was not the final decision maker on hiring. I carried the candidates all the way through, but ultimately had a leadership team. I was a part of that majority ruled on that leadership team. So there was a candidate that came through my gut was like, this is a no and it was because and this is a very important note from a hiring person.

She was different on every interview, when she was interviewed by my team, she was one way when she was interviewed by me, she was another way when she was interviewed by my fellow director, she was another one. And that to me is like ultimate red flag in hiring is like your chameleon. You're not consistent. Yeah, you are gonna be something different when I get you on the team.

And sure enough, she was day one happened. And already she was rubbing my team entirely the wrong way, was like, doing things like, you know, we were supposed to do a lot of hands on like shadow training. And she was like, I will figure it out on my own. I'm gonna go work up like she, we were in a co working space, so she'd go in the little like cubbies.

And like, yeah, like she was not respecting the authority of my staff member and her manager, unfortunately, I had to guide her through the firing because I was traveling to a work conference, but she had been there three days. She had been insubordinate multiple times. She had, you know, was not following process and protocol. And so here I was at like 6am before the conference coaching her manager on like, when she comes into work today, you need to say, you know, thank you so much, but this is not working out.

And you know, clearly you're not a culture fit. Clearly you didn't have the experience or the respect that we expect from an employee like very calm recruit reasons, and then you need to get her laptop from her. And you need to ask her to leave the building immediately. And so that was the quickness was like a three days in situation.

And I was like, I'm going to ask for forgiveness, not permission, because my team was on the other side of the world. And I was like, this needs to happen now, because it was affecting this manager so much to have this asshole coming in every day. Authority, and that manager was the most valuable person on my team. So it was much more important for me, as her leadership to say, I trust you, I totally hear you, this is not working, let's get him out.

So that's the quickest I've ever fired somebody. And, and, and what I will say as the other side is the is the trust and respect I built with that manager because she was a new manager. And she was like, I don't know, if I have the authority. And it got it wasn't cute.

Like, it was like the girl tried to keep the laptop, she was like, Well, I don't know that you guys are going to pay me for my three days. So I should just get to hold on to this laptop. And like Samantha had to be like, No, give me the laptop and get out of here. So like, it was, it was a lot for her.

And she she suddenly came into her power, she suddenly knew that I respected her authority, I trust her. So it as hard as it was in the moment, it built a lot of good things with the employee that was worth keeping. And today, she's a senior leader of that company. So no, so So that's the quickest.

In my own company, you know, I have had situations and circumstances where I've had to fire people within the first month. And, and this is a big reason why, for the majority of roles that I have these days, I do a contract to hire model. So I have I no longer and I strongly recommend to anyone listening, I never hire somebody without 90 days on the job. And for two reasons.

One, is this, like, Do I really have a full time role? You know, or did I just have a project that we needed your help for, and to, I strongly believe after many, many years of hiring, that something will happen in the first 90 days, that employee will get sick, something will go on in their family life, a project will go sideways, a client or team member will give them hard and negative feedback, like something will happen that will test the character and the quality and the ethics of that person that would not have been visible in any way shape or form during your hiring process.

They could have passed all the tests, they could have passed go, everybody could have said yes. And then they stopped showing up for work. They can't handle the personal life, like whatever that thing is. And so unfortunately, I've had some circumstances where people have something like that go down in the first 30 days, they really don't handle it responsibility or respectively.

And I've I've you know, said, and that's why the contractor relationship is great, because I don't have to do anything. I have liberty to say this isn't working, you know, pack your bags and go that day. And I don't have to deal with state unemployment. I don't have to, you know, anything.

I just I can say, you know, it was nice, but no, thank you, you know, and and we'll pay you for the hours you've worked. And that to me, I think especially for new agency owners, the autonomy to do that is something that I think is very important. Yeah, I love how you built that model through experience. Right.

Like, now you know what works for you? Yeah, I think that's great. Yeah, yeah. What about what about for you on this same question, you know, what do you think, is the hardest lesson that you have had to learn by hiring the wrong people in the past?

Like, what are the things that you would recommend people do differently based off of these? You know, these misses, missteps that we've all made? You know, because I think we beat ourselves up, we're like, Oh, my God, how could I possibly not seen this? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think I know, one of the biggest mistakes that I've made is really, you know, my nature is coaching. I really love coaching. And so it puts me in a bind when someone isn't responding, because then my personality of wanting to coach them up steps in, right. And so they can obviously be someone who doesn't fit, but I'm trying so hard to make them fit.

Yeah. You know, one piece of advice I would give that I've made, or mistake that I've made on too many occasions is I'll try to put somebody into another role, right? I'm like, oh, maybe this one's not working because of this. And, you know, we've done things like, we've done like StrengthsFinder, to see, you know, on the personality testing, you're like, Oh, no wonder you aren't going to be good in this role.

Let's move you over here. And what I've found is that if they're just not a cultural fit, they're not a cultural fit. It hasn't worked out where I've moved somebody to another part of the organization. And all of a sudden they flourished, you know?

Maybe the first two months, they were like, Oh, this is much better. But then they revert back to who they were. And it just doesn't work. So I always say, you know, like, the minute you think that somebody should be gone, I think what you said is perfectly, you got to have those conversations where you say, hey, you know, this is what I'm seeing, let's talk about this and give them opportunities to course correct.

But by and large, even though you've given them those opportunities, the minute you've noticed that it's probably been happening for 668 weeks, right? And, and the minute you bring it up to someone on your team, that they're gonna say, I knew it, I just didn't want to tell you or something like that happens, you know, so, yeah, it's interesting. And I think I think the thing that we have to be better about as leaders, like, because I fall into that same trap of like, we can, you know, we can roll change, we can, we can, you know, put put, you know, Sarah put in the chat, trust, regret, this is great, but like, you know, desire to be like, I'm a great coach, I can teach you, you know, how to be good at, you know, XYZ skill, because I'm good at it, you know, like, you know, it can get really toxic really quick.

And I think that I think that what we it goes back to that direct feedback of like, you, we actually need to be much more vehemently protective of our cultures. Like, this is a mistake, I feel like I've made as a leader is like, for a while, early on, it was like, Well, what is our culture, though? Like, I don't know, we're like a whole business. And I'm like, I look at those founding brand documents.

And I'm like, yeah, like, this is the business I wanted to build. And even when I revise what the core values were, I'm like, This is who we fucking are like, GST is like one of our core values. And like, I can't teach you GST it stands for get shit done, like, and it is, it's a value around, you know, I'm gonna give it my all, it's not about how long it takes, it's about how great the quality of work is, if I can work better, faster, smarter, I'm gonna figure that out. You know, but but I can't teach GSD.

And so like, for me, I'm like, that's a value that I have to be so vehemently protective of that I'm like, I would never, you know, let somebody stick around, take up time, energy and money inside my organization if they don't have it. And I think it's okay. And we need to be okay about coming to people and saying, Hey, you don't got it. Like, why don't you doesn't mean you don't have skills and abilities.

But this is who we are, and you're not who we are. And that's going to feel weird with our team with our clients, you know, but it's easier, it feels easy times to fire people for performance, and fire people for, you know, for, you know, messing things up than it does to fire for culture. And I think we need to be better about protecting the culture in that way. Yeah, you bring up something that I think we should jump into in a nother podcast.

But you know, as much as we want to hire people for culture, it's also about finding clients that fit our culture to a lot of clients who will put pressure and stress out our people. And all of a sudden, our people like I thought this was our culture, but yet this client is violating it, maybe disrespecting it doing all sorts of negative behaviors, where everybody starts to question what is the culture? Really? Yeah.

That's the pod. That's for another five. Okay, well speaking, because we're basically at our our, what would be your your big takeaway from today's episode? What would what would be if you were to leave a golden nugget?

For our listeners? What would you say is most important when it comes to this? You know, hiring slow firing quick? Yeah, I think the big one is, be intentional.

And I really like your strategy of, and again, it's a luxury for a lot of people. But if you can bring somebody in as a contractor, consultant for those first 90 days, and both of you can feel each other out, man, that's a win. I would say just know that, you know, some people don't have the luxury of it, right. Like some people say, No, thanks.

I need something full time. But I think it's the best case scenario from the agency perspective in terms of getting to know somebody and letting it be a trial run. Because if anything goes south, then you both can say it was only 90 days. Yeah.

So I think that's probably my biggest takeaway. What about you? Mine would be to take some time to really sit you know, if you hear Jeff and I talking about all this culture and value stuff and you you're like, I don't really know that. I don't know what that is the to sit with yourself as a leader and say or as again as an individual marketer, right?

Because if you're somebody out there looking for work, you want to work for somebody who shares your values and where you fit into the culture. So I would really recommend taking some time to visit or revisit those things to create clarity And then, you know, if you're somebody who's questioning the structure of your org or questioning the quality of people you have, use those values as a guidepost to assess, do we have the right people here, not just for the work we have before the company culture we aspire to not only attain but sustain long term.

And if you need help with that, talk to me, Jeff, because obviously, you know, that's, that's something we're deeply passionate about helping people solidify. So, so yeah, that would be mine. Yeah. All right, any projects you're working on that you want to tell the audience about?

I'm super excited. I've been talking about this one for a while, but my mastermind community launches next week. And I've got just such a cool cohort of female founders, all different industries, to post services, we've got some retail apparel, some ecommerce stuff, all sorts of interesting founders. But if you are a female founder that is looking for community coaching and guidance around things like marketing, branding, strategy, business development, we still have a couple of spots.

So very excited about that. And then I'm also doing more one on one coaching in the coming months. And I, I've just been doing some really great I've been doing in person strategy with clients, I've been flying to clients or having clients come to me to do strategy sessions in person, I know you and I've been talking about this behind the scenes of like, just so great to get in, get in a room with a whiteboard, and really, you know, get our stickies out and strategize so loving that.

What about what about you? What are you up to? Yeah, I think we're kind of doing the same thing. So my profitability workshop for agencies is really coming to fruition.

So I'll be doing that live next month. And I'll put some stuff up for the community to just share out if you want me to come out to your agency, but it's really fun. It's a really good way for people, you know, for a lot of agency owners aren't financial people. And so the whole point is to really understand your numbers if you're not a CFO, for the most part, and then really, building scorecards around that.

So I think it's a lot of fun. I think it's a great way to understand your business from the numbers. So good times. Awesome.

And of course, if you want to learn more about our work or collaborating with us, please head over to creative friction.com All right, I'm gonna see in a couple of weeks friends, see ya. You just listened to creative friction. Please leave us a rating and review if you enjoyed the show.

And if you want to learn more about fearless foundry or the main company, go to our website at Creative friction.com. All audio and video recordings are owned by Madeline Reeves and Jeff need and are recorded live every other Friday on LinkedIn and released once a month. Creative friction is produced by phenylalanine suela of fearless foundry music is by premium beats.

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