Adapt or Fall Behind: The New Rules of Business Growth with Rachel Ody

Speaker A: Welcome to the Creative Agency Success show,

Speaker B: the go to resource for agency owners looking to scale their business.

Speaker A: Join us every week to stay ahead

Speaker B: of the curve and position your agency for future success. Hello everybody. Welcome to today's podcast. Very, uh, excited for today's episode. We've had, uh, a ton of fun pre showing already and usually we don't do much pre showing, but Rachel has such a great personality that she's easy to talk to. And also it's because Jody's not here. So whenever Jody's not here, the conversation always uh, flows a little smoother. I'm actually kidding. Jody's obviously part was a part of the pre show and then his uh, his Internet stopped working. But uh, Rachel and I are really excited to talk today and we've actually had Rachel on the show before with a, uh, different last name, but now it's uh, Rachel Odie. So very excited. And um, part of the pre show, Rachel told us that, you know, this is a journey to returning home for her. A lot has changed since last time we talked. So I'm just going to throw it over to Rachel to give us a little bit of the background on what, what's changed?

Speaker A: Holy smokes. That's a, that's a wild question. Um, yeah, I think, I don't even remember how many years ago it was that we chatted, but I think for of people it's felt like a million years and several lifetimes. So uh, since that time definitely, uh, separated uh, from my business partner in life and work and took louder than 10, which was our baby that we created and unfortunately sunset that last year. So that was pretty, that was pretty painful for us. It was just time for us to spread our wings and grow in a new direction. Also the market was shifting too, right? And like with project management, I can't wait to talk a little bit about that. But you know, things are feeling like um, they're changing really rapidly and the discipline is going to be even more, uh, strategic and I think like spread across seven hats. So yeah, it'd be interesting to talk about that. But now I'm over at. Hello Rachel. Uh, you can actually find me@rachelgurtz.com because that is still switching over. Um, my new site, uh, it's got, I'm basically supporting um, a lot of small businesses and agencies and uh, strategic business, like getting ready for the future. Like everyone's trying to figure out where to go, what to do, um, from the operations standpoint, the project management standpoint, you have to be able to read Underneath the surface of what is going on. So not just like, hey, what's the logical way to solve our business problem of profitability? But like what do we actually know to be true internally, wisdom wise, where are we actually finding the quiet answer and not the booming, screeching, fear based panic that is driving our society? So that's what I'm all about these days.

Speaker B: I love, I love the, the due direction, but I am curious. So obviously I've been working with agencies for about 10 years now and seen a lot of agencies go through what you've gone through. And you say there's a catalyst, usually there's something that triggers it or a couple of events that trigger it to make you just sit back and be like, all right, I need a change. Is that how it worked for you? And what was that again?

Speaker A: Another heavy hitter. So there were kind of two parts that I'll be very like honest in that, in that answer. So the first part was we had actually spent a good deal of time converting to a worker owned cooperative. So this is a thing where any owner can become a shareholder and a voter in the company. And I, I still to this day like I strongly support this ideal. These cooperatives tend to be more resilient in times of economic turmoil. It's really, really powerful stuff. Now we were, we had like three members and that's the minimum member uh, membership size that you need. And what I will say is that um, there are natural hierarchies and power dynamics in any organization and when you actually expose those, it's fascinating to see that your untold um, like I'll call them like um, not wounds but like trauma that you carried from wherever you learned it when you were little or like previous businesses, you bring it into the new structure and it lives there as organizational trauma until you heal it. So I'm not going to get into the details but basically we all discovered that there were some dynamics that were fascinating and that in the current setup we're not actually going to be feasible for us to continue in that direction or in that space. But what we all learned was that the, the, the like core of it belief and um, you know, taking care of our teammates, building something that actually creates energy, connection and like transformation that still I think for each of us we're all doing those, those parts in the new business. So that was part one. Let me know if you have any questions about that.

Speaker B: No, I think it's just a comment. I think the realization of that is key. Right. So I think that um, you know, so many people start businesses either with people they're friends with or people that they're working with at another company. And they're like, you know, three of us really get along well. Let's, let's start something new or like, no, we work together well at this one company. Let's go start something new. But businesses do need certain roles and they do need certain lanes and they need to make sure they work together well. And so I think the fact that you have that realization is really key.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And to that point too, like, I think one thing that folks may tend to realize is how they show up in, at home and how they show up at work can often be different because we're trying to almost like project another part of us that maybe we don't get to express or it doesn't feel safe to express. And so I think there's like these accommodations that we make in our workspaces that again, it's like you, it might be a more or less authentic version of yourself, but you still have to deal with the dynamic of the other people that are also doing that. So it's almost like is. It can be a game of like, I'm, uh, not speaking from my experience, but it can be a game of like smoke and mirrors in that way. So. Yeah, so that, that is something that I'd love to get into because I'm really curious about like, the, the future of like, archetypes in business, like the, the Jungian archetypes and how we have roles to play in society. But the other point you were like, how did you realize it? Well, at the time, um, um, it had been that boomerang. I think it was like 20, 22, 23, where the hiring, um, the hiring mix had just gone up by 25%. I think people were getting like, um, just taken from other companies and, and salaries were going up. It was ridiculous. Right. And we knew like, this was a boomerang because there's no way you can have infinite growth without a retraction. Right. And then shortly after there was. Because everyone's competing in brick and mortar spaces and then they're also competing online. I think that with the economic instability with the. We are going to say the word AI at some point, it might as well be right now. Right. It's happening. Everybody is dealing with, um, the rapid flux of change. And so it had a fundamental impact on the role of, um, project management, operations. And that changed the course of the business.

Speaker B: Okay, so let's, let's dig into That I think this is probably the context of where you're, where you, where your knowledge base is the highest. So let's, let's talk about like, you know, what do you see has changed in the project management role and what, what do companies need to be thinking about now that they weren't maybe thinking about two years ago when it comes to project management?

Speaker A: M. Yeah. So the, the one irony is one thing I think maybe we even talked about was historically project management is kind of under considered as its own discipline. It's not usually treated with the reverence and respect of say someone who's doing like accounts or doing strategy because it's often invisible work that has not shifted. A lot of the work that PM continues to be and do is going to be invisible and it's going to actually tie the whole team together. However, the level of nuance and complexity that has happened because of the introduction of automation. The introduction, it's been there, it's just been happening along, along the way. But AI and automation has made it so that now I was just talking to uh, a uh, fellow like a, a past client the other day. You've got people who are your points of contact who have a technical ability that might be seven levels above where your project manager is because of the role of like prompting and being able to automate, automate some of the technology changes that they're dealing with on the front or back end. So you have a. We've always had this translation challenges but the levels of translation across both sides now are actually quite complex. So a PM needs to be able to understand at the foundation, um, the language around the technical specifications for a website, a platform marketing strategy. But um, they also have to continue to do the relationship connection part piece of this that often gets kind of set aside for, for you know, getting the work done because it's a profit center, right. The margin comes from how efficient you are. So where the shortcuts we're taking is, are creating like a, like basically it, I don't know, it's, it's kind of like a mini implosion it feels like for the discipline.

Speaker B: Well I think what, what you're seeing is automation is different from AI, right? Like automation was what we were doing before. So before AI came out everybody was working on automation and automation was very helpful. But she always needed someone there to interpret it like okay, I can, I can have it take steps 1, 2, 3, 4. I need someone to tell me it took steps 1, 2, 3, four and tell me what the next steps are and think through the problem with me a little bit more. And now that's where AI has come is. AI has thinking on top of automation, which is, you know, I was just having a conversation with a PM I worked pretty closely with. Is like there's a lot of stuff I needed her before where I just don't need her for that anymore. Because AI is, is able to like almost manage me up in a lot of ways because it knows what I'm working on. It knows the next steps are. It knows all those like basic structures of it. But what it doesn't know is it doesn't know like how it works in the whole organization and how everything works together. So like, okay, what do you see that new role of PM being on top of the AI slash automation working together?

Speaker A: Totally. I think, I mean until we are comfortable hooking AI into our OS and being able to charge our credit cards for us. Right. Essentially letting it run wild. I uh, feel like, like PMs kind of have to be the, the OS of the system and they have to be able to do the connection points and the, and the oversight. Right. That is required. Now. Now keep in mind obviously oversight comes from every department. Everyone is tasked with this in their own way. But because pm, they're so close to the deliverable or the outcome they are, they have a unique ability to see the threads and where each of those go, um, at like a, a zoomed out level, but also at a zoomed in level. I think what I try to teach, um, ongoing is that strategic way of thinking about how the work gets done. Not just did the work get done. So that to me should not change.

Speaker B: I love that because I think you do need someone who understands the little picture and the big picture at the same time. Right. So I think that's exactly you're talking about there. And that's, you know, again, thinking about the PMs we work with within our organization, but also within our clients is like you know, thinking about hallucination with AI. And that's, that's what I first think about with that is like it's really easy with hallucination when I'm just using AI as a chat bot, right. Like if I'm just using AI to help me draft an email or help me write an internal memo, like I can easily see when it makes a mistake. When I'm having it do more than that, it's still making those same mistakes and it's who's going to catch them. And I think that's kind of what you're saying is the role of the uh, pm, because like you said, no one else like me as a leader, I really understand the big picture. I don't always understand a little picture. And then the workers, they understand a little picture. They don't understand the big picture. So the PM's kind of bridge between those two, is that how you're seeing it?

Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean increasingly I think that we are going to have to ask of our doers, right. Our producers, like they will have to have an understanding of how the system works and how to hook in. Because I don't think that we're at a place where we can just keep our heads down and do the work anymore. Like it's, it's almost like the, the organism of our, of our business is becoming intelligent. So it's like everyone plays a key role in that. So the PM's role is going to be, I think, supporting and nurturing that type of behavior. Like I have kind of my simple way of breaking down. Like what does a junior do? A mid level and a senior. It's like a junior can follow an existing process, right? Follow tasks, checking them off, get it done mid level, they can adapt a process and they can mentor juniors. Senior levels are responsible for designing and shaping whatever those processes are or the experience as well as the mentorship, uh, of those other folks. So we, I think increasingly, because you're seeing pressure, uh, on juniors aren't just not getting hired as frequently, right? There's where do they get their training experience? Where are they going to cut their teeth? We still need a system where we can create mid level and senior level stuff because they need to exist. Right. And um, I know like at louder than 10, our whole thing was like giving juniors the opportunity to practice in real environments and then giving them the strategic thinking skills that allow them to grow into that mid level to senior level role. So I'm curious about how that's going to actually shift. Um, I was just talking to another person today about that. Another agency that wants to really grow that function of like training up juniors, especially in development.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a, it's really something to think about. Right. Because the, the more and more I hear from um, agencies and how they're reacting to AI is it's about strategy and it's about expertise. Right? That's, that's now what our clients are looking for. They're looking for us to come in with strategy and expertise. But how do you get someone that can bring that work as a senior when they're expecting it right away and that that low level work where they would have learned it in the past is not there. So how are you approaching that problem?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great. Well, I think we're all trying to solve that problem right now because I was actually trying to think of like, is this a horse to car metaphor? And like what were the people who were shotting horses, stabling horses, you know, like feeding horses or what were they thinking about in terms of their job displacement or their role as the car came in? Like there were people who were like adamantly against the car and then there were people who are going to probably drive horses and then learn how to drive a car. I probably have to develop this metaphor further. But I'm curious if in the same way we're going to see this pivot and shift towards um, the technology is like your, your, your knowledge is all theoretical. Like here you go, I'll give it all to you by LLM M. But you don't have any experiential knowledge and you will just become a theoretical being doing theoretical outcome.

Speaker B: Wow, we're getting deep here. No, I'm definitely like again we're going through it as well and I think the um, we, we're telling our team members they have to level up, right? Because a lot of the transactional stuff, day to day stuff they're doing is, is no longer going to exist. And so we're, we're telling them how to, how to level up. But a lot of people's process and steps for leveling up was being a doer first, right? Like when it comes to just doing accounting, which is what I know a little better. Like the reason I can tell someone how to have better cash management is because I reconcile their bank accounts. I worked with their bankers, I did all these things now that AI can do. And so how do I still give them that knowledge without having them break a few things? And so I think the problem's gonna be is they might have to break it at a higher level, which then is even a bigger problem. Because if I come into a consulting meeting and I'm like, I think you should do X and they do X and it totally messes up their business. And I'm like, it's a little bit of trouble, right, where like there were kind of lower level problems earlier on. And so I think that's ah, the solution problem we're all working with. And I think a lot of it down to TRA training, right? I think our, our training is going to have to get better and stronger and more real life. Um, and I think that's something that AI can be really good at, right? I can be really good at being in the, um. The thing that my Adam mentioned to me the other day is like a simulator, right? A flight simulator. We don't send pilots up into the air for their first time flying. It's. They've been through so many simulation hours and I think that's probably what we're going to have to use AI to build is like, all right, you're going to have to have 100 hours of talking to fake clients in AI before we actually put you on a client.

Speaker A: I. It's so wild to think about, right? Increasingly, like the simulation aspect, that is the only training ground that might become available. Because until we're able and comfortable to let people be in higher risk, like, if you think about it, the role of most companies is to reduce risk, right? Like, you know, extract more profit, et cetera. But, um, thinking about that, it is very risky, uh, to let someone with no experience talk to a client about, you know, something that could lead to a project failure. Um, but it's, you know, it's. I wonder if like the experience of a pilot, like, going through flight simulation and like, trying to avoid, um, death, for example, would be like, can you induce the same experience, the same reactions as you would when you're flying that plane? Like, is it going to be enough? I guess as a simulation for project, uh, success? I'm not sure. I mean, pilots seem to be doing okay, so well.

Speaker B: I think the thing is going to be is, um, we're going to have to be better about post mortems on our clients, right? Because you. Right now I could talk to ChatGPT and I could say, hey, I'm going to work on an agency client tomorrow. Let's have a simulated conversation. Like, I'm, I'm having my first conversation with this client and it will create something, right? It will create a conversation with me. But what's more important is, is right now, as an agent, as a company, as an agency, you've already worked on how many projects, right? You've already worked on hundreds of products. Do you get that information from actual projects that you've worked on and problems you've encountered and get that back into the machine and have it working on that versus just working on general information? And so I think that's going to be the, the solution is, is like, just like, you know, the flight simulations they've built, like, they built that on like theoretical things, like someone accidentally hit a bird four times in one month and they're like, okay, that's a problem. It's like as a, when you're flying in the air, you're going to hit birds and like, who would have thought of that until you like actually do it three or four times? And so I think that's part of what's going to be is this really spending more time in your post mortems of like, we did a great job on this client. What problems do we introduce and then archiving those problems and putting them back into the simulator and constantly updating it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I, and I do have clients actually working on those systems already even with like project sizing and, or budgeting, just looking at Monte Carlo simulations and getting kind of like a bell curve so they know where they're sitting with fascinating stuff. And I'm really glad that it's happening. Um, one of the things that I'm still grappling with too is like, you know, we know historically from automation, a lot of the projects there was always project shortcuts that were taken. And one of those things was retros are getting cut out and upfront any upfront development or like research and um, definition was getting cut out to just jump into problem solving. So, so we'd get in, solve the wrong problem, then wonder why our client is saying, well this is not what I asked for. Right. So you know, if we're, if we're shortcutting for the sake of efficiency. Because I'm, I'm seeing, I've had so many people tell me like, they're like the iron triangle is dead. Like every, every corner or not corner, but every like side of the triangle is being squeezed. And it's not, you know, just pick one, you have to pick two, you have to be able to pick all three. And then basically how are you functioning? I'm still looking at this as like people's cost of living globally. Right. Is going to continue to go up. There is going to be a place in time in which we, we have to be able to pay workers to, to do the work that they're doing. So we can't shortcut and, and cut out all of these parts without actually just having to fundamentally change what we're, what we're building, what we call a company, how we create that value. Like this is a major, major transformational shift that we're in right now. And I don't know if anyone says they have the answer, I'd be like, Shocked? Absolutely. And dismayed.

Speaker B: I think everybody has different answers, but I think that's what makes it kind of fun. And I'm glad you said the word transformation instead of a problem because I think like what we're doing is we're taking out X percent of the workforce and taking it and automating it. Right. So then you have two choices. You can either like get rid of all that workforce, which some people are doing, which is fine, and that, that, that's their choice, but you also can reallocate that workforce. And that's what the question you're talking about is, do you, where do you reallocate it to? And what I was just talking about is like instead of having those people on the front take that workforce and put it into the backside and analyzing and really understanding what's happening, that's just one idea. I'm sure like every uh, I love that listening to this. And everybody you talk to has a different idea of where they're reallocating those resources. And that's what's going to be fun to see is like what people are going to come up with because AI is taking away some of that work that was being done before. So where are we putting those X hours is the question. It's going to be fun to see.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And to your point. So like again, and then whereas if it's a cost center, where are we getting that revenue? Because if you're cutting it out of projects, because I've read, I read like 15 to 30% project, um, budget reductions right now for the same type of project. People want it done faster, better. Right. Like, and, and it's, it's, people can't do that. So where does the money for that come from? And I, I do think that like that is also going to be hitting a transformation or pivot point as well. Because there's still the certain amount of time that needs to be taken to have the conversations with clients to build trust, um, to actually establish what the power dynamics are in their organization as well as yours. Right. So that you're not having those like airplane and submarine conversations. That can't be. Trust can't be shortcutted. It takes time to build that. Right.

Speaker B: What do you think it's also the. No, I think it is. And I think it's the three things I keep hearing among agencies is value based pricing, it's niching and it's strategy. And it's because of those three reasons, like what are the three things that are going to separate me and you it's if I can come into your company and A, tell you my value, hey, this is when you're done with working with me, this is what you're going to get. That uh, gives me a very clear picture of what I'm going to walk away with. And B, I can tell you a lot of that value is strategy. And I can go into that strategy because I know your industry so well. So I can come into you and talk to you as a person who's a cpa, but I can talk to you like you think I've worked in agencies my whole life and I can talk to you like that because the last 10 years I spent a ton of time doing it and B, that I have a bunch of strategy. I can tell you from all those experiences and then C, I can tell you this is my value. So to me that's why so many companies are going in that direction is because that is what is going to bring you more money is more value. And so like you're going to talk to me who has all this experience working with, let's say I'm an agency, I've all this experience working with dentists and I've working with dentists and I've niched in that area. And you're going to work with me because I bring those three things. I've told you my value, I understand your business and I understand um, exactly how it's going to work. And you, uh, you trust me for that, that I'm going to be able to bring you strategy, you're going to work with me over working with the generalist who just can show you a really cool website or really cool design. So I think that's why the industry is going in that direction.

Speaker A: Yeah. And like, I think it's always been those three things that were different, differentiated. I, I, uh, like. And yet so difficult for many, many companies to actually do. Right. Like it's, it's challenging. I think probably if you look at the architect style, right when you start a business and you've got your usually one person or two people and like they've got two of the, the legs on the tripod, but then you don't have a third and then you need the team. Right. So, yeah, it's tricky.

Speaker B: There's a lot of debate on it. Like you said, it was always those three things. But I can't tell you if I went to a conference four, four years ago, there was people up on the stage arguing, should we do fixed pricing hourly or value? And There was a ton of arguments about it. Same with, like, you have half the room if you tell people in a conference, if you niche, go over here. If you're a generalist, go over here. And it'd be split right in half now.

Speaker A: Totally.

Speaker B: It's not like that anymore. So I think it is really running in those directions.

Speaker A: I do agree with you. Yeah, I've definitely seen that, like, especially from the hourly pricing side, people are like, it doesn't actually add up anymore. Right. Because otherwise people just keep squishing you. But even from a fixed pricing, like, I, I know, like, you can make things more efficient, you know, from the, even from strategy to creation all the way through. Um, but there are still going to be pieces that I think, like, translation of intent and like getting alignment around. What are we actually trying to do here? Those pieces, like, still cannot be automated. You could throw all of that, those conversations in and they'd be like, what is this? What are we talking about? But at the end of the day, you still have emotional humans that are like, but I feel a certain way and I need to understand. Right. And I don't know if we can bypass that.

Speaker B: That's the hard part is you can't. Right. Like, I do think that, yes, AI has way more experiences than both you and I do. But like, the fact that I've can interpret those two, Those experiences and have those conversations is just why people are moving in this direction. Now I'm going to ask the contrary question. So what I always think of when that many people are moving in one direction, I always think of the Moneyball approach. You seen the Moneyball or Red Moneyball?

Speaker A: That movie? Love it.

Speaker B: And so obviously all of baseball was going in one direction and one person asked, well, let's go the other direction. And so like, do you have an argument for someone that is like, okay, value strategy and niching. I want to go the opposite of that. Like, what was the. Is there any argument for doing the opposite of what everybody else is doing in this, in this current environment?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I, I was actually thinking about this and a lot of, um, a lot of folks are getting overwhelmed by just trying to make sense of, like, of. I'm speaking again to AI. It's just the most pressing thing on my mind right now. Um, and I, I think that there are people who are getting so overwhelmed and frustrated by the, the doing part that they're like, no, no, I can do the strategy. I can, I can figure out what, you know, this value or this ROI will be can you just do the thing? I just need you to hold my hand and do the thing. So I could see that there is room for that. If you have. I think in, in our society like we have to understand not everyone is a doer. Some people are thinkers and some people have both. But like there is always going to be a counter argument for doing opposite. Now could I double down and like fully support that? I don't know, that'd be tough for me. But like I think to just be a contract contrarian. Yeah, of course. If you are going to, if you are going to refine and create the structure around that, you're actually going to like um, be very direct about what, what you are going to accomplish together. So it's like we are going to get you from A to B and this is what you're going to have and you want to be that in, in a, in a sea of people who are like strategy and like um, opening up additional uh, lines of business that, you know, revenue that weren't there, by all means go for it. I think in this like in 2026, I don't think there are any wrong approaches. I think there are approaches that will take you to the next branch and you have to just see what happens and be willing to take a risk when other people aren't.

Speaker B: Well, I think what really exists of those three, the one that's going to exist for most people is the value, right? Whether you're pricing it value based, but you need to be able to explain your value. So even if you go down that path of like, yeah, I'm going to work at the lowest level because what I am thinking about is like I've been using Claude code to build websites, right? I've built like six websites in the past three weeks. I've been busy with it, having fun with it, but those websites are going to break down. There's a lot of things wrong with those websites. And so someone was out there just selling that service of like, yeah, I'm going to work at the lowest level. I will maintain your website for you and I will fix it if it breaks. And that's all I'm going to do for you. If they can explain that value, then yeah, it's not necessarily a strategy play, it is not necessarily a niche play. It is a. Everybody has that problem. So I think that that one example of a way to kind of do that counter, counter way to do it. But again I think the value still exists. Like you still need to explain your value pretty quickly.

Speaker A: Yeah, I, I think we're increasingly in a world where people need the why, they need to understand how it all fits together. Else it's just like, don't waste my time. Right. And also, if I was going to be very, very contrarian, I also wonder if very soon we won't see a, uh, return to simplicity and a return to like people being like, I don't need these apps, I don't need to be using this stuff. I don't. I just want connection with my family. I want to. We were talking about return to home. Like, like literally just coming home to yourself and your. The things that are important. I look outside, I see green grass and trees. Like that maybe something completely radical. But a simple life. We had it before and I think we may.

Speaker B: I love that.

Speaker A: Need to return to it.

Speaker B: I love that. And I think just a last thing, then we'll kind of get to our last question. Here is one of the things that we've done at conferences lately. And so we obviously attend conferences and we set up booths and we saw a couple years ago that everybody was moving higher tech in their booths. So they'd have TV screens, they'd be doing real life demos, they'd be doing all these really high tech things. And so we decided let's do the opposite of that. And we brought in whiteboards and we'd write a question on the whiteboard and we'd use magnets, people to vote on that and the number of people that come up because it stands out, right? Everybody's going tech and we're going low tech. Like people come to your booth just to like vote on the magnets and stuff like that. And so I think that's like, to your point is like, with all this technology, sometimes the simple really does like, stand out to people. So I think that's just one way to think about it.

Speaker A: Cook a grilled cheese sandwich and just sit down and have a conversation. You know, just.

Speaker B: Or chicken nuggets, one of the two.

Speaker A: Oh, actually that'd be perfect.

Speaker B: Awesome. So this is, this is a great conversation. It's kind of, ah. I mean if you think back on it, how many different directions we went. And I think we started with PMs, but then we started talking about the future of the industry, which I know everybody's talking right now. So let's just, let's completely change the topic for our last question, which is something we always do on this show is, um, so we're in the beginning of summer here, so I'm curious about your Next planned vacation. So where are you going next? And um, is it planned yet or if not, where would you like to go?

Speaker A: Okay, so I just got back from Mexico like last week, so I don't know if that counts because that was kind of the big one. But, um, okay, here, here's something that might both date me a little bit and also make you think I'm extra cool. I started raving, uh, this last few years. So I'm actually going to my first festival at the end of June. It's called Friends Club, and it's actually a place where middle aged people get together. And there, there, there's dance, there's costumes. There's also a lot of chill vibes and like, it's kind of under the, um, the connection point of like, um, going a level deeper and like doing a lot of self reflection. So there's workshops, they give you food. So, yeah, it's um. I think I'm trying to find my inner child, which is probably what they call the midlife transformation, but I'm okay with it. And you know what, all of you folks, if you're like, what should I do with my time? I just don't feel like I'm. Go dance your pants off at a rave. I'm telling you, they have day raves now. You can just be done by 10pm that's why my hair is pink.

Speaker B: I've not heard the word rave in a long time. So, yeah, you're definitely like, oh, wow. Like I hadn't thought about raving in years. But not.

Speaker A: Life is so short and precious. Like, squeeze the joy out. Find your people. Return to that sense of home.

Speaker B: Cool. Usually I answer the question as well. And, um, so, uh, the reason I asked the question, because we just booked ours, our trip to go to Hawaii in August. Um.

Speaker A: Oh, fantastic.

Speaker B: I have a daughter that just graduated high school. And so, uh, she, uh, is excited for high school or for college now, but we're trying to figure out what's one thing we could do before she leaves, um, for college. And so we decided to take a trip to Hawaii this summer. So very excited for that with the family.

Speaker A: So volcanoes, um, bird sanctuaries. What's the vibe?

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, we're gonna be on the beach as much as possible. We love. My daughter is an animal lover. And so as much time we can spend in the water, um, we will be in the water snorkeling and hanging out with turt turtles and all that stuff. And then other than that, just kind of relaxing and doing you know, luau and that type of thing, but then also hike. We just. We love outdoors. We love Colorado, so we're used to the outdoors and want to be outdoors as much as possible. So, yeah, that's our goal.

Speaker A: Incredible. I hope you have a blast.

Speaker B: We will. All right, so before we. Before we jump off, how, um, can people find you? How can they get hold of you and, um, give them all your information?

Speaker A: Absolutely. Come and find me@hellorachel ca. The current URL is still pointing to my old name, rachelgurtz.com that will change fairly soon. And, uh, yeah, just if you want to reach out and talk about, um, kind of coming home to yourself in your business and finding harmony with your teammates, um, that is what I can help you with.

Speaker B: And raving recommendations as well. So. Local raves. Awesome. Well, thank you for the great conversation. Like I said, this was fun and I learned a lot from talking to you.

Speaker A: Me too. Thank you.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Enjoy this podcast.

Speaker B: Visit our website summitcpa.net to get more tips on and strategy for achieving business success.

Speaker A: We're here to be a resource in

Speaker B: this ever changing industry.