Corporate CPR Episode 132: If Your Entire Organization Isn’t Closing, It Might Be Killing Your Company

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to another episode of corporate CPR where we breathe life back into your organization projects and processes, giving you insights to recovery and avoiding corporate mortality events. Today we'll be talking about how if your entire organization isn't closing, it might be killing your company. And joining us to contribute to the conversation is Bob King, who literally wrote the book on closing. Welcome Bob.

Speaker B: Thank you, Jana.

Speaker A: Well, I would love to hear a little bit about your background.

Speaker B: Sure. Uh, um, my background, I went to film school and I was a filmmaker. I made a couple of features and a short that got a lot of attention. Uh, and then this thing came along, but I never really made money. Uh, and uh, this thing came along called the Global Economic Collapse. I don't know if you remember it, back in 2007 through nine kind of kicked my ass and I had to find a way to make money. And so, uh, the jobs that I was offered were commission only, sales jobs. There was one of them that paid to train you. And the training was from a guy who could sell you, uh, a blender at the state fair on a day that you never thought about blenders. And I wanted to know his secret. I, uh, kind of knew he was up to no good. And then I did the training. There was kind of a tricky little scam that that company did, um, and uh, but I felt like I kind of owed it to him to go on a couple of leads. And it turned out I was really good at um, earning customers business. I quickly realized I was working for scoundrels. Left that company for a little bit better company and then a solar startup. Um, uh, and the startup is where I learned how to train people. Um, and you know, if you want to learn something, practice it. If you want to master it, teach it. And I really mastered the art of closing by teaching other people how to do it. And I went from there, uh, to a very reputable company and I realized that the sort of greed based techniques that I'd been trained in really weren't appropriate, uh, to working with a first class organization or how I wanted to be in relationship to my customers. And so I had to come up with a different way to do it. And so I did and I was incredibly successful. Started coaching, started counseling, um, but realized, uh, you know, a lot of people can't afford me and there really isn't enough time in the world to get to all the people that I wanted to reach. And so I wrote a book about it called the Joy of Closing. The definitive guide to, uh, building trust, getting the Deal and creating happy customers. And that's my background.

Speaker A: You didn't write the book, right?

Speaker B: I wrote the book. Me and yeah, that's it. I had an editor. Was great.

Speaker A: You didn't know the name, huh? Said I wasn't sure since you didn't know the name.

Speaker B: Oh, right. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's a long title. It's a lot to remember.

Speaker A: Um, well, no, and that's great. And we're so glad that you're here. And normally it sounds like you, you consult a lot to sales, sales teams on how to, how to improve their closing and um, and just the overall, I suppose, importance of closing within, within an org, um, the sales cycle. But um, today we're going to kind of tie that back for the rest of the organization. So we'll probably jump back and forth a. Between, um, between sales and. And. And how the rest of the organization should be closing. So what do we mean by that when we say the entire organization should be closing?

Speaker B: Well, I mean, I think what we. If. I mean, it seems like you deal with mostly leaders within the organization. And I just have to say leaders are closers. Like, I mean really everyone's a closer. Everyone has that skill of just a function in life. You have to be able to get your kids to clean their room or, you know, you want to pick the book club selection on occasion or the movie on a Saturday night. So we all have the experience of closing, but we just, you know, don't necessarily cultivate it or even feel good about it when we do it. And um, and. And so, you know, my journey as close. I mean, I did not set out, uh, to become trustworthy when I learned how to, you know, close people on greed. But, but that really is what happened that, that journey, you know, the best way to become. To earn someone's trust is to become trustworthy. And my personal story is that, you know, as I learned what not to do, I realized all the ways that I had sabotaged my film career by not being someone, someone wanted to hire. And so even when I was working for not the best people, my life got a lot better because I was learning how to stop doing things that, that destroyed people's ability to trust me. And that makes your whole life better no matter what. So developing the skill of closing is a useful and valuable thing in my experience on a, uh, kind of like global level for me as an individual. But uh, what, what I think relates to leaders within organizations is that if you're working with people under your, you know, um, authority, you're an agent of change, just like a salesperson walking into someone's home. And if you want to be an effective agent of change, there are certain, certain things you can do to, you know, build trust and, and create desire within your customer. But your customer isn't always your customer. And so like when I consult with corporate teams and things like that, you know, I have to do what I'm telling them to do or I'm not effective. And so I think, I think that's kind of the fascinating thing about closing is it's really a house of mirrors where, you know, you really do have to use it even when you're not dealing directly with getting a customer to say yes.

Speaker A: Yeah, we, we talk about that a lot within project management because obviously usually in project management, you know, you're dealing with people throughout the organization who um, you know, you don't have direct control over like you have to influence them. And so you always have to be kind of selling the project scope and selling the benefits and selling all of this so that people will then actually do what you need them do to do to make the project successful.

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Speaker B: Well, and I came to these insights kind of, you know, in a trial by fire situation where if I did close the customer the first day I met them, I didn't get the, I was out gas money in time, you know, um, and so that, so I learned how to do this stuff in a very pressure filled situation and not always using the, the most, um, I don't know, just greed. You basically had to engage the customer's greed to get them to work with a company that they shouldn't work with. But that's not the only way. But in the, on the way there, I also learned how to make an effective presentation, how to, you know, attack the status quo, how to make them feel the pain of their current situation and the pleasure of my solution. And I think that's a big difference between closers and salespeople. I think there's a lot of skilled salespeople out there that know how to make a customer want their product. Um, I'm sure there are ways they could be more effective based on what I learned and what I've gotten other People to, to put into practice in various industries, not just, you know, home improvement or. Uh, I work with a lot of insurance people. Um, but that's still, you know, very B to C. But even in B2B situations, if you're not attacking the status quo and, and making them feel the pain and the pleasure, you're just not being as effective as you could be. Um, and so I think even, you know, when you're dealing with chains of command and things like that, what you said you want to be an influencer, not, you know, the boot on the neck kind of person. Um, and so learning how to close people is a really valuable skill.

Speaker A: You mentioned that, um, one of the foundational skills, it sounded like, was trust. So what other, what other skills? I guess make a good quote, unquote, closer.

Speaker B: Uh, the first thing is to pay attention to who you're with. Well, let's go back one step. The first thing is to have the right mindset. So you need to believe at the core of your being that moving forward today with your company, with your product, with your set of actions, with your agenda items is the very best thing for everybody there. And if you don't start with that, um, you're multiplying everything by zero. So you really have to believe in what you're doing. And, you know, if you're manufacturing that to get a sale, that's a pretty weak belief. Um, so I think it's really important to work with, you know, a product and a company or a set of, um, procedures that you want them to implement that you really fully are committed to. And if you can't fully commit to it, then maybe you're with the wrong company, you're selling the wrong product, or recommending the wrong procedures, like, like you have to believe in what you're doing. And that's really the revel revelation that I came to in my journey as from salesperson to closer is, you know, I have to believe it. Um, and then once you have that, the next thing is to pay attention to the person that you're talking to or the people that you're talking to and really understand where they're coming from, what their challenges are. And, you know, not. So you can, you know, not as part of discovery, so you can then whack them over the head with how much better it's going to be with your thing, but just on a human level, like, where'd they go to college? Like, you know, how long they've been with the organization, what's their experience like? There Just on a human level, when you connect with people, if you can pay them a sincere compliment to their creative expression, hopefully not how they look or dress, but you know, whatever the picture on their desk of, you know, the family vacation where you went the year before, something like that, where you can find common ground and just be a human being and really take an interest in them as a human being. I think that's something that oftentimes, uh, people just don't know how to do.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And the more you try it, the better you're going to be at it.

Speaker A: Well, I was about to say, so how like are there, um, you know, did you give yourself kind of triggers to remember to do that or did you have it on a post it note saying, hey, build trust and give yourself tips or like kind of, how did you implement that into your, into your process?

Speaker B: Um, it's. Once you start doing it, it's kind of easy to remember to do it because it just makes getting along with people so much more exciting. You know, when you pay a sincere compliment to someone, um, you uh, enlist all boats. So when you find something to sincerely compliment about that human being, you, you can't help but appreciate that thing. Right. Unless it's, you know, if, if you don't love a velvet Elvis painting, don't say what a beautiful velvet Elvis paint. I mean, I don't know what's wrong with you. They're beautiful. Um, but, but you have to find something to love about their creative expression and then allow yourself to love it and then express it, but just allowing yourself to do it, let alone the reaction that the person will give you. And I, in the book, I say, uh, you know, practice it. Uh, the first exercise in the book is um, ah, pay three sincere compliments. One to a total stranger, one to, one to someone you work with or see every day, and one to someone that you live with. Um, and if you know or see every day, you know, one work spectrum, one home spectrum, spectrum, uh, environment, whatever. And when you do that, um, you're going to have an amazing experience. Like it's impossible to do that. And it takes the interaction from what can I get from you? To who can I be to you? And that's just a more exciting, dynamic way to be in the world. Then you know, the default, you know, the default is, you know, the salesperson looks up from their horoscope and says, can I help you? That's not really engaging with your customer in a way that the customer can benefit from. So take an interest that would be the first thing.

Speaker A: And you know, I guess uh, tying it back to, you know, selling within the organization and I'm sure this is true with selling a product or a service as well, is that, you know, everybody cares about what's in it for me. Um, right. Like that's what, that's the part you're like you're trying to sell to. And that was I think the revolution of sales right in the late 80s or 90s or whatever when it went from, let me tell you about all the amazing features of this product to really trying to find out what your problem is and mapping that to how you know the benefits of the solution. So I say all that. What are your tips in that space? Um,

Speaker B: the second part of the question distracted me from the actual question. So I, the question was, because I haven't.

Speaker A: The question was we have to talk about it. It's all about the other person. So how do you find, like how do you draw?

Speaker B: It's not meeting their needs, but I mean it's called because you lead them. So when you're talking about, you know, dealing within an organization, I mean I can just as a consultant, like oftentimes I have to take a sales team that thinks they're doing pretty well and give them a bunch of ways to, you know, improve that. And you would think that the best idea wins and they're just going to seize this as the magical savior. And sometimes they do. Especially like an individual who's calling me up for coaching, they're like, already know like there's things that I can help them with and they're dying to know what those things are. But uh, when you're talking about it on an organizational level, there's much more commitment to the status quo like that they don't even realize they have. And so you have to be willing to go after the status quo and you know, either highlight where it's falling short or even stigmatize whatever it is they're doing that's making things worse for your organization. And a lot of times it's not, uh, it might be something that leads them to a sale, but leads your organization to an unhappy customer. You know, some weird promise they're making that makes the customer say yes and but isn't in line with their, you know, that puts their expectations out of line with the process of receiving your goods. So those are hard pills for a sales team to swallow. And so if I don't talk about, you know, the value of happy customers and referral based business and how what they're doing is making it impossible for their company to achieve that. Then I'm just trying to make their job harder. Right. So you always have to find a way to attack the status quo and present your solution in a way that makes them want it.

Speaker A: M. Um, so what about, what would your tips then be? I suppose for a person who, you know, people often put up, you know, I'm sure the first thing you hear maybe from, from people who maybe aren't in the sales department is, I'm not a salesperson. Right. Um, so how do we get past that mentality and really explain what sales is rather than in the framework, uh, of its sales?

Speaker B: I think you need to channel your inner six year old, uh, because the customer is going to say no at least three or four times before they say yes. So you can't get all hung up on the no. You can't throw a two year old tantrum on the no. You need the six year old nuanced approach where you might tell them they can't have ice cream, it'll ruin their dinner and they'll say like, well, can we at least go see what flavors they have? I bet they have pistachio, that's your favorite, you know, or I won't have any now. Uh, we can get some to go. They have moves if I don't know how many olds are in your life, but if you study a 6 year old, a good salesperson is 80% 6 year old and 20% lawyer. And obviously you don't want to sign a contract with a six year old. Like there are times when you have to be very serious. But, um, but, but most of the time you can't pay a lot of attention to your customer's resistance. You pay attention to the customer, but you recognize their resistance is often times just. And, and it's giving you a little, um, road map to intimacy. So you, you want to speak to what their resistance is putting up in a way that makes them feel understood. But you don't want to like, make it the defining issue that they present it as. It's just like, oh, I mean, I wish I, I could be, you know, so maybe you're advocating, um, a certain procedure that they think is a waste of time. Right. M where they just don't know the value of. And, and so they're going to say like, well, we tried that, you know, back in February and nobody uh, made any, you know, we still had whatever that you're trying to get rid of. And, and you, you just can't you don't want to argue the case, you don't want to deny their experience. You just want to kind of move on to the bells and whistles or, you know, whatever you're, you know. There's a structure to a sales pitch which I think is useful in a lot of situations besides sales pitches, which is why I wrote a book about it. But that structure is seven steps and a, and a forecast. And um. So channel year 6 year old is really important. Um, a forecast is also a great thing. Whenever you're in charge of, um, a group of people, uh, when you start, you know, down the road of whatever it is that you're looking to go over with them, a lot of times there's resistance, right? So with a customer it's, you know, you're gonna, you wanna tell them about your company and your product and things like that, and they just wanna know the price, right. They want two things from you, a scope of work and a price. And uh, I'm sure it's similar in, in you know, organizational meetings where, you know, you wanna, you know, sort of help them understand why you've gotten to the conclusion that you're at. And they just want to know what they're supposed to do and when they have to do it. Right. So, and if you present it that way, you know, um, you're not going to be very effective. Right. Especially if they have the opportunity to say no, like a customer does. Maybe, you know, an organization, it's a little bit different dynamic. But at the end of the day, like you said, if you're not influencing them, you know, they're doing it for a reason that it's probably going to blow up in your face and not with the same enthusiasm that you want them to have when you've actually closed them. So one thing you can do is, uh, a forecast. So if they start getting antsy, and this is a fun thing to do also with any group of people you're in charge of, um, uh, when they start getting antsy and you know, asking too many questions, you can do a one sentence, I call it a pre cap of what's about to come next. At the end of which is the. Whatever the goodie bag is. So, um, here's what's going to happen. I'm going to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, then blah, blah, blah, blah blah, and then will go over the new procedures and tell you how it's going to make you more money. Sounds good.

Speaker A: Sounds great. Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah. Another skill is to stop talking when you Present price. So when you're, when you're asking for the deal or presenting price, you always want to stop talking and make the other person talk next.

Speaker A: Because like, and that can be uncomfortable, I assume, right? Like that's probably what you're.

Speaker B: It's fun, it's uncomfortable the first hundred thousand times, but after that it's just fun.

Speaker A: Mhm. Um, and so, you know, you, you touched on it earlier, but let's go back. So obviously in sales there's, there's uh, you were, you were talking about objections and that can come, you know, like you were saying with a six, six year old and ice cream and all of that. So it's all about overcoming, um, objections. Do you have other kind of key ways, um, to handle, handle that and not like, because you said don't be argumentative. So kind of. What are, what are some of those?

Speaker B: Um, One of the things that's really important is to recognize. So when you ask for a deal or when you, in any situation where you're closing someone, um, the first thing that's going to come out of their mouth typically is a lie. Um, it's either, you know, a polite way of saying no. That doesn't sound, it's a no. That doesn't sound like a no. Like, gosh, this sounds great, I just need to talk to the boss. Or you know, and there is no boss. Like they have the whole.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: But usually, you know, it's a husband talking about their wife or a wife talking about their husband. Right. But they're the one that met you and you know, when you got there, they said, oh no, this is all my decision. And suddenly, you know, oh, my uncle in Poughkeepsie said, uh, I not to sign anything until I showed it to him, you know, and like, oh, well, really, where did he come from? And it's just the customer's lizard brain, like resisting change. Right. So um, so you don't want to like confront them on it. Uh, but, but anyway, so you, you. So it's going to be a lie or a no. That sounds like a yes. And you can't fall for it, right? So, so you have to figure out a way to get them to talk more. Uh, but, but in your mind it's, there are things as conditions, right? There's a, there's things that condition and there's, you know, an objection. And if it's condition and customers always present condition, uh, objections as conditions. So an objection is a, um, you know, something the customer says to not make a decision. And, and a condition is a real reason why they cannot either make a decision or say yes. Either. You know, you're doing home improvement, they don't own the home, or you're. I'm trying to think of a corporate situation where that would apply. Um, I mean, generally speaking, if you're meeting with a bunch of people that you're closing on an idea, you know, they're there, they're capable of making a decision. Um, so I don't know. But, but they'll figure out things to say that distract you from getting a yes because they, you know, it's really hard to commit to change no matter what. Everybody, everybody's afraid of commitment. Right. And what you're asking for from them, if you're closing someone in any situation is a commitment, is a commitment to move forward with a new and better way to proceed with things. And it generally involves sacrifice on their part and giving up, uh, a way of doing it that they become very accustomed to, even if there's aspects of it that they're unhappy with. You know, embracing change is still a tall order no matter what you're doing. And so, so, yeah, so when they, so their first response is either going to be a lie or uh, is going to be a lie 90% of the time. And that's where your six year old kicks in, where you don't want to be caught up on that, but use it as a. Okay. They're bringing up. It's going to take too much time. So you need to meet them where they are and say, okay, well let's look at how much time what you're doing now takes versus what I'm advocating. Um, and, and you know, show them how it's going to, you know, I mean, I hope there's legitimacy to what you're providing, but you have to meet them where they are or just ask them a question, you know, how long are you spending on. I'm trying to think of a corporate, you know, example right now and start with that M. Um, so meet them where they're. So you don't want to ignore the objection. You want to ignore the fact that they're unwilling to make a decision, but you don't want to ignore the topic of it because the topic leads to intimacy. And when you have a little intimacy and you speak to their concern and then ask for the deal again, maybe they'll tell you what's really holding them back, or maybe they'll just say yes because you spoke to their concern. But most of the time it's a little bit of whack. A mole for at least three or four yeses.

Speaker A: Okay. Um, I guess the other piece that I don't know if this goes into objections at all, um, as well. But uh, when you're trying to get somebody to see your point of view, many of us, well, I'd be curious if this is what you see. Um, probably talk too much. Do you see that? And what is your recommendation when you're working through this of uh, when to be silent?

Speaker B: Uh, the most important time to be silent is when you either present price or ask for the deal. Uh, that's when you want to really stop talking for two reasons. Number one is they cannot say yes if you're still talking.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You might already have it. Like when, in my example, when we, when I stopped talking and then you said, yeah, that does make sense, or something like that. Great, I got the deal, move on.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I lined a course about in the case I was doing the forecast. There's uh, going to be a first thing in that forecast and you just start doing the first thing, you know, and next thing you know, you've done everything you need to do and you're giving them the goodies and they're probably going to be grateful and happy. And it makes you trustworthy too. When you honor a forecast, it makes you trustworthy. And people really like doing things with people who are trustworthy. Um, so, um, so you want to always stop talking when you ask for the business, when you ask them to, to cooperate, when you ask them to, you know, adopt this new whatever it is. Um, that's the first thing. Time to stop talking. And um, yeah, uh, that's the, the most important time. And really listen again, you can listen to their concern without arguing about it. It's, it's like, you know, you have to, you have to be the adult in the room. Right. Because they're kind of reacting in a very childlike way. Most of the time you're saying change and they're like no, you know, mhm. I mean something in them is saying like as much as part of them wants it. There's always anyone who says, you know, something's an easy sale, has probably never sold anything.

Speaker A: Right? Well, yeah, um, so we've kind of, we've jumped around a little bit talking, you know, um, talking about a couple of things here. Um, I assume in your book then there may be more framework items like are there things that processes or things you recommend?

Speaker B: There is, yeah. I mean the bulk of a book is a uh, you know, how to section about, uh, not necessarily how to close customers on the first day, but you really only have the element of surprise one time. So what your customer learns about your organization in the warm glow of the first time you're talking to them is incredibly valuable to your future success with that customer. And so it's really what I learned in the trenches of One call closing, um, that is really applicable to so many different industries and sales presentations and, and uh, there's a structure to a one call close that I think so far everyone I've consulted with in a lot of different industries has found incredible value in and has brought quicker and more substantial success than before they had that. So I think, I think I learned something valuable which is why I wanted to write a book about it. And that gets all imparted in the bulk of the book which is, you know, called One Call magic. Uh, there's 40 pages before that about how I came into the knowledge that I came into. And it's kind of an interesting story about someone who got hired four times or six times in 19 years in the film business to someone who was hired four times a week. That's, that's worth knowing about. And then at the end of that, at the end of the how to chapter or how to section, there's um, a section on creative happy customers which I think a lot of new ground is broken. And how to, how to, you know, if you have a customer service department, um, you know, buy 20 copies of my book and you'll get an hour of my time and I will talk to your customer service people and they will have much happier customers and more five star reviews because of what I learned in the trenches of my 10,000 hours.

Speaker A: Mhm. Well, and what are the things, I guess um, uh, that you would say people go have the most missteps. What are the things that people should be watching out for you? You have mentioned a couple about, you know, you need to build trust and you need to um, uh, be quiet once you tell them price and things. But are there other, other common missteps you see?

Speaker B: Sure. I think the number one thing is just thinking you don't need to close people. Uh, you do need those people. Where are again, salespeople are agents of change, leaders are agents of change. And um, you know, the, the other name, you know, closing is basically getting some another human being to adopt your agenda and think it was their idea. That's what closing is. And if you don't think that has use in the corporate world, as well as, you know, a sales team to a customer, uh, maybe you're not paying enough attention. I think that is something that is applicable in all sorts of different areas, but especially within a corporate organization, I think it has real value. Um, uh, yeah, I forgot the rest of the question, but I think that's a huge thing.

Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah. Anything else then? Uh, what was the other missteps? Just missteps.

Speaker B: Oh, the other misstep is. I see a lot of times I work with a lot of companies that, where the CEO is their best closer. And um, and, and, and I've figured out, or at least my theory of the case, it's because they have belief and they know how their company is going to take care of that customer. They know they're their customer's best option. And so they walk in with that a, uh, belief that their sales team usually doesn't have. And if you can, you know, get some understanding of the basic practices that brought this. The, you know, that what is. How do you make the sales team confident in the way that the, that the owner is. And it's not something that owners are particularly good at training sales teams in. Um, and so you need someone like me to actually make them aware of it so that, you know, the 80% of your sales team that does 20% of your company's business will learn what that 20 who does 80 already knows and will never tell them. Um, so yeah, you need like it doesn't just happen because you have a great company and a great product. That's not how the world works. It's. You need. The customer needs to be aware of it. They need to feel it coming from your sales team. And um, and that's a, that's a skill that you, that needs to be cultivated because getting a salesperson who doesn't own the company to have the same commitment about how great the experience your customer is going to have is going to be. Um, they don't wake up committed to that the way a CEO does. And, but they can be led in that direction. You can invite them into that and their life gets so much better so fast that usually they're pretty fast to adopt it.

Speaker A: So I mean, I guess that's true with projects as well. Right. A project M manager or project sponsor, somebody might know, um, really feel passionate about the why or understand what, um, the objectives are. Right. And have an easier time. So do you find with leaders and then, um, uh, sorry. So do you find that, you know. Yeah, with sales with the, like you're Saying the CEO to sales people or, you know, leaders to, to the appropriate teams, that they sometimes have a difficult time pulling out that story and articulating it in a way that can be shared and trained, I should say.

Speaker B: Um, you know, there's so many ways they can screw it up, but a lot of times it's, it's that is it like they either feel like they don't have to. I think a lot of times they just feel like their ideas are so good, or they just have authority to make people do stuff. And so they rely on that rather than really, um, inspiring and convincing them. And they feel like it's, you know, it's a lot of work, uh, getting people to think it's their idea. And also a lot of times CEOs have a mindset where, you know, of course it's my idea, I'm the one who came up with it. And they want that credit rather than being effective. And if they want to be effective, like each one of those people that's adopting your procedure or your ideals or whatever it is you're getting through, they have to think they came up with it, um, or they're just not going to adopt it with the same passion that they would if they did. So you got to get your ego out of the way, um, and really respect the people. And a lot of times the other thing is they may be doing something great that you get to find out about and make that part of the new procedures. You know, having a little bit of an open communication about how it might even be improved by their experience is also incredibly valuable.

Speaker A: Well, so I guess I'm thinking, um, I have a difficult time sometimes realizing that everybody doesn't know what I already know, if that makes sense. Like, so I was the founder of the comp. Of our company and, um, and so I've obviously been on the 14 year journey and sometimes have a hard time understanding that some of the information I know is not common knowledge.

Speaker B: Um, well, so then the question would be like, how?

Speaker C: How?

Speaker B: First of all, you know what? They can't know everything, you know, right? So you have to pick out the specific things that lead them to a conclusion that you want them to come to. So sort of maybe it's a matter of taking a step back and thinking, why do I believe this? Like, what set of experiences I have successes and failures that led me to following this particular practice that they're not adopting that I think they need to. And then, you know, rather than telling them, you know, here's what you need to do, say, you know, when I was. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, I mean, um, I assume you've done most of the jobs. You know, if you're with a company that long, you've done everyone's job. That's how. And you know, before you had to hire people, you just did it all Right, Right, right. So, so maybe take yourself back to that moment and like, you know, allow them to understand that you face their struggles and that the solutions you're recommending are born of your experience and not just your authority. I think that's a huge thing.

Speaker A: Mhm. Um, then what? I guess, you know, because we are kind of getting a little close to time, um, maybe for. Can you talk about what you've seen? Are the, um, the best traits when it comes in a person, when it comes to um, being able to close? Like what are the, what are some of those things when you're like, oh, that's a rock star closer. What are some of those traits that, that you see in that person?

Speaker B: Being. Having a capacity to have an interest in other people is probably the most important thing is just for whatever human nature, curiosity, not discovery, questions to find out how to close them later. Not empathy, whatever the that is. I mean, you know, it's a $5 word for not being an asshole really. Um, uh, but, but beyond that, like just be having an interest, having a healthy, enthusiastic interest in the person that you are, who's, whose trust you are looking to gain. That's the number one thing. Um, and you got to be super adaptable, uh, to, you know, changing circumstances because, and also you have to be willing to commit to a process. So, so when you, when you, I mean, I'm trying to think how it relates to a corporate situation because, because you're not doing a standard, you know, your procedures are going to change in terms of what you want, but how you approach those people that you're looking to influence, really, you have to have an approach. You have to know, I'm going to, um, get to know them a little bit or let them get to know me. A lot of times leaders of organizations don't feel like they need to explain themselves to people. And so they don't actually give their audience enough background to trust them. You know, if they know you've been in their shoes, they're going to relate to you much more differently than if they just think you're their boss.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So maybe a little more. Anyway, so the process I would recommend connecting with them, um, making them feel the pain you have to make them feel the pain of their current situation, um, or help them let them know that you understand the pain of their, you know, maybe they're not making money and they want to make money or something along those lines, but you have to call attention to the pain of their current situation and then see the value and the, the beautiful vision of their future. When they adopt your solution, you have to make them feel that in an emotional way. You talk about the reasons why other people have adopted the same procedures, what they got out of them. I have a thing in the book called the Three Reasons that I think is, you know, applicable. And the three reasons are always the same. Money feels good and urgency, uh, or timing. Right. So you talk about how it's either going to make them more money, avoid costs somehow. Every product has some even luxury items, you know, are going to go up in, in price at some point. Um, there's always a feel good aspect to any change you're asking someone to cultivate, and you need to talk about that. Maybe it's, you'll have more free time. You'll, whatever it's going to be, you know, you'll be able to, I mean, I'm, I'm just brainstorming all the ways, but there's always a feel good thing. You'll treat customers better. You'll create more happy customers. You'll, you know, be delivering on the trust that you earned for them in a way that they didn't expect. You know, there's something when you do that customers will really respond and like you. That's. That feels good. You need to talk about that. And if you want them to feel, you know, enthusiastic about what you're doing, don't leave the field. People adopt, change, or buy things for some small stupid reason, and there is no way to know what it is. It might be how you pet the customer's dog when you walked in the house. And not only do you not know, they don't know either. They just know that they like you better than the last person who didn't pet the dog who asked, um, them to put the dog outside. Right. Um, they just know they like you better. And, and, and that's actually, you know, the decisions we make on an intuitive basis are actually a lot better than our analytic ones most of the time. My, my favorite movie is the Lady Eve with, um, Henry Fonda and Barbara Stanwyck. And at one point he says to her, most people spend more time. Most men spend more time choosing a tailor than they do a wife. And Barbara Stanworth says that's probably why they look so funny. So, um, uh, intuitive decisions are often the best ones we make. Um, and, and then, um, you, um, want to talk about, you know, why they, you know, the legacy of whatever it is you're advocating. You want to talk about the bells and whistles of it, and then you want to go over whatever it's going to cost them. And you know, there's always a cost, right? Even when you're asking someone to adopt change. And then you want to say, you know, are you ready to do it? And wait, stop talking, see how they respond, and ultimately get that commitment from them. So that's the procedure I advocate. There's a lot more detail about that in the book, but I really think it's applicable to any leader. Leaders are closers. Human beings are closers, but especially leaders are closers.

Speaker A: Excellent. Well, this has been a, ah, really enlightening conversation. Um, do you want to share what three things you want to leave top of mind with people?

Speaker B: Oh, my God. Um, number one, you know, you talk about corporate cpr. The lifeblood of any organization is sales. And sales does fix all the problems, generally speaking, unless you have a business that doesn't make money, and I can't help you with that. But assuming that you know that, um, and so, uh, no matter what, your sales team would benefit from turning from salespeople into closers. And if you're, if you're not selling stuff, you probably don't have closers on your sales team. That's probably the reason, I hate to say it, but it's the case. It doesn't matter how great your product is, how great your company is, if your customer doesn't feel it. Um, all their, all your sales team is doing is setting them up, making them want something, and then it's going to go to either lowest bidder or the best closer, probably not both. But one of those two things is going to get the business that you really could have if your sales team were a little bit more skilled. Um, uh, the, um, everyone. Well, I said it already that, that leaders are closers. Like a salesperson, a leader is an agent of change. And getting someone to willingly adopt your agenda and think it's their idea is the best way to lead them. Um, and so, um, you know, that's a skill that's worth cultivating and fascinating to think about, which I had not thought about until I came on this show, but it's very true of my experience for my consulting gigs. And it just in life in general, like, there. There's the only thing more satisfying than finding what you want and knowing it is helping someone else do that. And that's really what the nature of closing is, is helping someone find what they want and then working with their resistance to get it for them. It requires skill, commitment, um, and stepping outside of yourself. And that's just an uncommon, rare thing. But to the extent that, that you can invite other people to do that, their whole life is going to be better and your life will be better as a result of it. And that's just the kind of shock that I never thought was coming, you know, when I signed up to figure out why my dad bought some pots and pans. Um, the. It's all that's in the book, too. Um, uh, the other thing is, you know, if you have a curiosity about this and you're in a corporate world, buy 20 copies of my book for your sales team and your leadership, and I will give you an hour of my time, uh, for free. So, you know, and there's lots of food for thought there. And there's no organization that will not benefit from learning how to create happy customers, earn business, build trust.

Speaker A: Awesome. Well, um, Bob, how can people find out more about what you do or get in contact with you then?

Speaker B: Sure. My website is, um, joyofclosing.com and I can be reached there directly, Bob. Joyofclosing.com, um, also on LinkedIn and, uh, you know, all the usual suspects. My book is on Amazon and please, uh, get yourself a copy of that. And, uh, yeah, and let me know how it's going to. That's one of my favorite things is when someone writes me and says, hey, I started using your book and, you know, I sold more stuff that's really exciting to me.

Speaker A: Excellent. Well, thank you so much for taking time out to be on our show, Bob.

Speaker B: Happy to engage in a lively discussion. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Yeah. And to our audience, until next time, keep your organizations healthy tomorrow.