Trust Over Paperwork: Rethinking How Philanthropy Supports Nonprofits

So in the middle of, all of this ice. Disaster. I have really been quiet, like, I've said a couple of things, but I've been more quiet. But the foundation has been active.

Yeah. And I really took a position that, as community stepped in to challenge and to bring voice and bring life to protest. I felt really strongly that I didn't want to just be announcing grants, but I wanted to be supporting the movement on the ground and allowing that story to be the loudest. And our ears right, like to have my team like, what can we learn?

What can we support? We did, we did quiet grants, right? Someone had to pay for the Target Center. But I chose not to announce it because it felt like it wasn't our announcement.

It felt like community. 50,000 to 70,000 people came out. And that is the story. It's not what we did.

It's what they did. And we just met. We just met them where the need was because of the weather. But I also have had people say that we're being too quiet.

So I'm wondering how you feel about it. I think everybody's going to show up in the way that they can't. Right. And first of all, I want to start by saying I'm doing I'm doing okay.

Based on the circumstances that we're living I'm doing okay. Have I been emotional pretty much every day? Yes. The work that I have spent on myself to be just a healthier person.

I feel like over the last several years has almost gone backwards in the last couple of months. You know, I'm, I'm an anxious person. You know, I, I think we can agree the upbringing has created, an environment that has created some of that anxiety, Yeah. I have healed, or at least I thought I had, on my road to being, Just a healthier person.

And, because this occupation is. And so it impacts all of us. But I think it's a topic that is so close to me. You know, I'm the proud son of two immigrants.

I remember being a kid and hearing about la migra. La migra is the Spanish word for ice or patrol. And, And I remember seeing things that are unseen by a lot of people. I had, you know, once you see those things as a kid, you always have them in you.

And I think that it has kind of retreated me as an adult. that I have forgotten about or undocumented or under documented community because, you know, I live among the family members or friends or colleagues of mine. So But your body remembered. But my body never let me ask this.

I'm glad you jumped in there. One of the things that I know is that proximity and diversity is essential in the work that we do. Right? The solutions are near the ground, right?

We are coming from communities. So we have a different lens of knowing. I remember being interviewed during, after George Floyd's murder and someone said something and I'm like, I'm enter as a place of knowing, not as a place of getting ready to know. Right.

Like I already know. I already know the stories. I know the people I know, the emotion behind it. So there's a real benefit to that.

The counter of that is that when things happen, you have no distance. And so you're a leader that has no distance from the issue that we're currently living in, because it impacts you directly and many, many people that you know. And so you're on this road to health, but can you just provide a little bit more color like you were going down that route. But I just want to talk about that.

Well, another thing we have in common, you know, is that, I, you know, I was a bus fellow until the fellowship. It's amazing what happens when somebody invest in you. You can start investing more than you have been in yourself. And things cost money.

You know, But it's the reality of things. And, you know, I feel like I was able to address a lot of my mental health, my physical health. And, and so, you know, that took a couple of years of routines of making sure that, you know, I put myself first. And I think that I have always put my community first, and it even hurt me the first time I even said, you know, I need to put myself first.

And now I'm telling others like, hey, what about you? But let's start. Let's start with you first. What do you need?

Because, what I needed was just to take time for myself. And I'm glad I did, because I could tell you were like, I'm ready to go right now. It's like. And, what practices did you put in place?

Could you, if you don't mind sharing? Yeah. Yeah. Well, the the first things I started to use, I've started to say no more, you know, I started to actually think of, like my kids and my wife more first, and not that I didn't before, but it's interesting, right.

How you think that it's going to be okay to take your kids to all these community meetings, but it's not, you know, and I love them. My kids know every community leader and and people and people know them, but that's not what they want. And that's not what an eight year old or a ten year old wants to do right now. Right?

Or at least not every night. And and nothing against people that do that all the time. But I started wanting to have more energy at the end of the day to be able to like, wrestle with my son, because my son, he likes to wrestle and he wants to do it every night It's like, not okay for me to be, you know, coming home at 630, 7:00 and it's like, hey, Michael, can we can we do it tomorrow? I'll promise we'll we'll do it tomorrow.

Yeah. We'll do. And we did do it every other day. But what can I do that every day?

I always say yes to people that need something from me. I need to be able to say yes to my son every time he needs something from me to. daughter. Yeah.

So how do you balance that in a time like we're living in now? Yeah. It's difficult. And I think it's okay to understand that there's going to be times that you just have to go all in and you just got to make it up.

Another point I used to think that I had to leave the country to feel like I was on vacation, home, because this whole staycations, I would just end up working. Or if I went to the grocery store, I would see somebody that needed something and I would feel the need to do something to support them. I always can make a connection, and I think that I can't shut my brain down that way. Therefore, I was feeling like I was working overtime, you know?

Yeah, it's funny because a piece of my, Bush fellowship is on, leadership as an act of liberation. And what does it mean for me to design for rest in this season of my leadership? And, I've probably I've said this story before, even on this podcast. But when I was moving into the president CEO role at the foundation, people were like, where are you going to take a break?

Are you going to are you going to rest before you go and I'm like, well, yes. And I can't bank it, right? I can't pull it out of the bank when I need it, which means I have to be thoughtful about how I design for rest. And vacation does not mean rest.

Vacation could mean I'm just working from a new location. So I have to develop practices to shut my mind off and to be present. And I'm finding that this is becoming more and more necessary as the complexity where we have had thing after thing after thing in Minnesota. Right.

What are we on year six? I'm just I mean, it's probably been longer than that, but of like constant response or crisis mode with Shonda and I think you will agree with this. There's people are people that's been their life that is toxic stress. Yeah.

Fair point. And it's been and it's just look different. And right now I feel like it's I feel like what's happening is like now when it's impacting, you know, our community is now more visible. You know, I think we saw that with the murder of George Floyd, like it became more visible.

And now what's happening with our immigrant community, it's more visible and it's but these things have been happening. And what I want to say is like, this is, you know, for decades in the making, like, what we're seeing is like folks having just hid in their homes for the last couple months, they've been doing that for for decades. I have friends whose parents are still undocumented. I'm 40 years old, Shonda.

I'm 40 years old. I have friends whose parents are still undocumented. That doesn't make sense to me. I have friends who are professionals whose parents are still under documented or undocumented, you know, and it's like there's just something wrong with that.

And you need to address that. And to me, it's not about just eyes out. For me, it's like, we really do need to talk about immigration reform as part of the solution to all of this. It's not just get them out of here for now.

That's too easy. And that's, again, the majority of folks are saying, well, I don't want to see that in Minneapolis or Minnesota or in my community. We should all not want to see this ever again. So what are the policies that we need to put in place to make that happen?

This is such a fair point. So when I was, at Pillsbury, United Way House did work on undocumented, folks and driver's license, the driver's license campaigns. And I do think that there have been, moments in my time where I better understood the danger of just driving, the danger of going out, but I don't think I fully understood it. So when you're saying that there's four decades, so there's people that are undocumented, that are what essentially under like House arrest in a sense, like they just are not moving around for fear of deportation.

Well, I would say the, you know, there's, you know, the immigrant community in Minnesota, if everybody was walking around, you know, a couple months ago, now you have I have four families just in my own neighborhood that I am checking in with every day because they haven't left their house. That wasn't the case, right? It just changes, with administrations of what's going on. But in many ways, I would say someone that can't fully participate as a citizen is in some form hiding.

And that's not okay for me. It's not okay that somebody is thinking about not being able to progress in their careers because, well, are they going to check my documentation? I should probably just stay here, even though I could probably run this company myself. Right?

Think about all of the intellectual intelligence that this country has missed out on, because we continue to suppress a population that is so important to our economy and the betterment of our country. If you started out talking about things that you saw and can't unsee as a child, I, have been thinking a lot and just sort of keep asking this question on how are the children? And I don't lose a lot of sleep over work, but I've actually been losing sleep over this particular question because there's so many kids that are being formed about civic action and engagement during crisis and pain and death that it has.

I wonder what are the long term implications of that? Right? What are the interventions that we should be thinking about relative to our young people? What are the stories we should be telling so that they have a more balanced, perhaps a less anxious way of engaging as citizens?

I don't want my kids, and I don't want any any kid to feel the way I feel like a as a 40 year old, I'm like, my legs are moving around right now under here. I'm conscious. Breathe. I could talk to Santa.

I could, you know, and I know you know this because you've been in these rooms, too. I could pretend myself in a way where nobody would ever know that. But there's a reason where all of this anxiety comes from, and I could tell you that there's, unfortunately, a generation of children of immigrants right now that are likely going to feel the same way I do because of what's happening to them. I want to give you an example today, if I may sound a you know, I have the privilege to have a passport.

I was born in this country. I I've been carrying this thing even before the occupation. I felt. And I've been carrying my passport I.

D. for months. Right. This morning, just like that do.

For the last couple months, my wife and I, I get the kids ready, and I get my neighbors kids to the bus stop because my neighbors kids can not be walked to the bus stop a block and a half. Shonda, while my wife goes and picks up 2 to 3 other kids who can't be taken to their own bus. My daughter is telling me that she's feeling a little anxious or nervous a few days ago in the house. Why?

Why do you feel nervous, mija? And she's a puppy. It's because I think they're going to combine my classes. And I don't know the other kids.

And so I'm. I'm just nervous. Interesting. Middle of the year.

Our school is considering bringing in two classes because her class of 23 and my son's class of 24 at times have only eight kids come to class. So yes, there's going to be trauma for the two thirds of the kids that are not able to come to school anymore. And there's going to be trauma for us citizen kids of all races. And kinds because their friends are no longer there anymore.

And I think that should upset all of us and ensure that we provide the services that these kids have been in need. So the fear not shaking under the table like I am right now with you, that you know, now and as you can see, I'm emotional because. Because it's it's terrible. Yeah.

don't know if people understand the weight of responsibility that we hold in these roles. Right. And I'm watching you, I feel it, and we're not even yet really talking about the work, but we're talking about the work I haven't even started to that. Talk about your job.

We're talking about work. And even gone to the office yet. something right, you know, to But this is the work, though, right? Like it's the heartbeat of the work is understanding and caring and respecting about, community now and later.

And when it is right at your doorstep, it takes on a different feeling. And so I know I've had to navigate that with staff. They're like, are we doing enough? You know, what are we doing?

And you're like, man, if you only knew the right, what we are doing. And so I feel what you're doing and I can't explain what you're doing, I feel it. You haven't heard from me and you haven't seen it. Six months is like, what are you doing for me?

Because I know what you're doing. I can feel it. And again, sometimes in these jobs, it's difficult to be able to explain the intangible things Yeah. to the rest of the community.

You know, you and I have talked about several examples already of how you've shown up for community. But, I feel you I know that you feel me, I do, I do. Let's let's go into the role a little bit because we've been talking about capacity for, for decades to right nonprofit capacity building. I've been part of a number of efforts to bring capacity to the sector.

What does that even look like anymore? Like? I mean, how do you see it from your seat? You know, I I'm in the best job I've ever had in my life.

I'm the president and CEO of Propel Nonprofits. I get to just support nonprofits providing guidance, expertise and capital. The capital part is what I feel makes us a hybrid, Okay, We get to lend to only nonprofits. We're one of, just a couple that do similar work in the nation.

We're the only ones that do this work in this region, you know? And so with that comes responsibility. And I know that we can help every single nonprofit in, in a state with 10,000 lakes and nearly 10,000 nonprofits. But I could tell you, Shonda, that I am worried.

I am worried because I know that while we may not have the full data yet, we know that there's less nonprofits than we had last year, and we're probably going to have less nonprofits next year than we have this year. I'm worried about that. But I also want to make sure that we can support the folks that are doing really good work and be able to support the folks that, quite frankly, I still believe, and I know some folks maybe listening to this would say, do we already have too many I was just going to ask you that because I hear that all the time.

personally, I would say that there's always needs to be opportunity for new and young and different leadership, and sometimes different leadership needs to create their own path, which might mean creating a new entity, a new nonprofit. And I'll always support, especially a Bipoc leader, to say, hey, I keep getting passed for these jobs, even though I know what I'm doing. So I'm going to create this because I know I'm going to be successful. We all have this entrepreneurship spirit.

I know you're you're the president of a foundation, but you have that entrepreneurial spirit to Shonda. And I think I know I think you know what I'm talking about when sometimes we just got to create our own thing, And that's okay. And I want to be available to provide support to those folks. Yeah.

Yeah it's interesting right. Because if we're like when are we going to see the needle moves. Right. And there's people that have been in the work for a long time and you get fresh ideas, you get new energy, you get people that have new connections that, you know, every person and he doesn't walk through a door.

Right. And so you need different ways to approach the work. So I feel the way you do on that. But I definitely get that question a lot.

Yeah I mean I would say most people need don't even ask for help. You know who we all have some type of pride and I want to believe that we all want to do what we need to do to support ourselves and our families. The last thing most people do is ask for help. When we were just talking about you not wanting the kids of today to feel what you're feeling, as I get older, as, what advice would you have for me or for philanthropy on addressing that or anything related to what we're dealing with?

Right now? I think we got to listen to them. Like I treat my kids as if they were a little focus group with little, little, little adults already. Yeah.

You know, I always talk to them the way I want to be talked to. And I think we can all relate with, like, at some point somebody has told us, oh, you're you're just too small, you're too young, you're too this. And I learn so much from my kids, ten and eight year old, years old, and I learn so much from them. I'm actually, I think, becoming a better me because of them.

And so let's listen to them. What do they need? How can we support them? you sort of touched on this already, but what are you learning about leadership in general, in this current moment that you didn't have the language for earlier in your career?

I think I always have had the, I feel like I've always wanted to be this type of leader. I know this sounds weird. I don't even know how to say it, but, And I've said it before among friends. I'm just going to say it here, even though everybody will hear it.

But, like, sometimes I feel like people weren't ready for me. I was always ready for leadership. People weren't ready for me So more because that is good and that needs the air, you know, because I think a lot of people feel that way. I mean, I've certainly I've felt that way.

I was just about to say the same about you. Like, we talk about, you know, transition committees and whatnot and, like, people wanting to make sure you succeed or, like, are you sure you want to take that jump? Henry. That that's a big jump.

Well, what if I always felt like I've been, like, down here? I've always been able to do this. I've always been able to lead, and I've always felt that as long as I still have this, my heart like, I think I'm going to make some pretty good decisions because I'm not dumb. I'm actually pretty smart guy.

And and it's taken me a long time to be able to just again value myself and say, well, actually, I'm a pretty smart dude. Why do you think it took you long to value yourself? I don't think that it took me long. I think there was always in me.

I think it was more of like the external. Like actually maybe walking it, walking the more, you know. I think I'm projecting more confidence now. I definitely know more now.

You do know more now we learn. We learn if we want to learn. I mean, part of the reason why I ask that, you know, I grew up in the north side of Minneapolis. It is known for a lot of things, but externally, people sort of talk about it as the problem child of the state.

Like one of the problem areas, neighborhoods of the state. That was not my experience growing up. And so I've say it repeatedly, right, that it is a community that has been underestimated, that has been minimized. Right.

Certainly there are opportunities for things to be better, but there's so much good that is rich and ripe and ready that gets overlooked on a regular basis. So when you're a child that grows up in a community that's being talked at and described from a distance, it sits in your body. Even if you even if you were raised differently, it sits in your body and it is something to navigate around. I want to I want to hope Shonda, people like you and people like me are making it easier for kids to see that.

Because I know you have a lot of pride of Northside pride. I do have it. I have pride of everywhere I've been. I remember, like even in the high school that I attended, everybody would tell me like, oh, you, you know, I went to Western High School in Las Vegas.

Oh, you know, third, all the school, like in the hood, like, oh, like, don't say that you went there. I had pride. I was like, I'm going to Western and I'm going to show that somebody can come from Western, That's right. that somebody can come from the hood.

And and I don't even want to say make it because we're making it. We all are successful in different ways. If you wanted to buy that house and you have your house, like for your family, you've made it. For some of us, like my family's thought that I've made it for the last 20 years.

There might be have, but maybe there's times that I'm like, man, I maybe I just need to get to this point. But my family's already thought that I'm their. I know that there's other people that feel that way about you, Shonda. About me.

But we may still have other aspirations. You know, And I'll give you an example, like last week I hosted, you know, 20 or so national Latino leaders, folks who had texted me or called me. And Henry, how is how are things in Minneapolis? They're worried about me and about our community.

They themselves would, identify as immigrants or children of immigrants. So I know that they get it. And at first I kept telling folks, someday I want you guys to come, but I'm worried about your own safety. And then, you know, about two weeks ago, Marla Blahnik from Malcolm said, hey, like, I really do want to go, like, I know I want to support you.

And I thought, okay, let come. And then that led to another one saying, hey, Marla is going to I'm going to go to Tony from the Hispanic Heritage Foundation. You know, then I talked to who learned Castro from the Latino Community Foundation, also was like, hey, I'm interested in going anyway. Shonda, that that just led to what I think of folks who I again aspire to, that I respect being here.

I host of them, some like and sometimes I need to be reminded that I could also just make those phone calls to and the importance of having these national Latino leaders meeting with local leaders who I think are equals and are peers. And it was clear that we were peers. But the the love and the respect that was in that in those rooms and visiting community, doing amazing work for three days. I'm a I'm inspired about where we're going to go after we get past this.

I think you're also speaking to the importance of what does it mean to be seen, particularly in a moment of difficulty. And you know I'm trying to get smarter about that like because in the midst of family and life and work and responsibilities like I will think about people I will know and I'm trying to be way more deliberate about just reaching out, because being seen in those moments and how people show up, that type of reinforcement is hard to articulate the value of. And so I just want to just encourage people because I'm sure after that meeting you, you just got like battery packed full, ready to go.

Yeah, I did feel seen in a different Just like I feel same with you right now. It means more than getting, Here's an unrestricted grant. Not. Not that I don't want that or anybody doesn't.

Right. But it feels special, honestly, to in the midst of all of this, to just have a conversation with you. And and it made me think, yeah, I know I called in tech some folks, but I even I'm like, you know what? I think I need to reach out to a couple more folks a little bit more often, and not just for work.

So you sit at a really unique vantage point, propel. Yeah. So you see the financial health. You were talking about that earlier, the governance realities and leadership challenges across hundreds of organizations.

What are you seeing right now that should concern us? And what are you seeing right now that perhaps gives you hope? you know Shonda. You know most foundations you get to see their latest 1990s, which could be a year to 18 months behind.

Right. I get to see, the latest financials on at least the organizations that we're working with. And it's not a secret. Not nonprofits are not doing as well as they were before.

And it's not because they're not doing good work. I would actually argue that they're doing a lot more with a lot less, and yet they're still struggling to meet their annual budgets. They need to make some strategic changes that will help them be able to stay afloat. And that's I'm proud to be part of helping some of them say, hey, you're going to have to make difficult decisions.

And if you don't make it now, it's going to be even worse for you. And that's kind of a difficult place to be for anybody, But what I'm seeing is, like I said earlier, I think we're going to have less nonprofits. I think some folks are interested in kind of maybe coming together or, taking on, a very popular and important program, maybe, instead of the entire organization. Yeah.

I've always said, you know, the best time for mergers and acquisitions are when two organizations are doing really well. Not when things are like this right now. And so that makes it very difficult to where financially, it just doesn't make sense. Yeah.

The math doesn't work Yeah, I think it is a privilege for some to be able to say no. Others just can't like drop in centers. They'll just have, for example, you think when I worked there, it's not like we would just eventually tell a homeless youth like, okay, we've met our maximum. No, we try to be creative in ways.

I think like one thing that I do advocate for, and I think you're already on the same page around that, but finding a way to do like multi-year grants for organizations that if you already have a ten year relationship with this nonprofit doing amazing work and like, can we start looking at what is not just 1 or 2 years, but like, can we start helping these executive directors and boards really start understanding? Okay, we we have three years, of this instead of every year. It just it seems like a lot of work for every nonprofit to do a lot of work to go through, a lot of work to do it.

Yeah. Yeah. I hear that. yeah.

And so I think that the approach that I would say would be like three pronged. You know, you know, who you're gonna fund for multiple years. You know, the regular approach. And then you still need to make some room for these special projects or, or nonprofits that actually are meeting the need of the moment.

Right. Like, right now, I would say any organization doing direct work to support the immigrant community, like, I would assume that folks are interested in getting them as many resources as they can, because that influx of support that they're providing has probably quadruple, Yeah. So there's a lot of pulled funds that are happening right now to help small business. Our nonprofits immigrant ran nonprofits are serving.

Are those, are those included in the opportunity to receive those funds? I would say that when you look at initiatives, especially state government initiatives, to support small businesses, the way that they're written, sometimes, leave nonprofits out. And I don't think that's intentional. It just happens.

And I can assure you, Shonda, I'm one of those folks, and I'm looking at, you know, you're looking at the cash flow. And I'm the, I do what I can to make sure the language is included, but to include nonprofits, because I actually also see nonprofits as small businesses. And, you know, again, when you put together the nonprofit sector, I mean, we make up the third or fourth largest employer in the state. And I could tell you that if the governor ever had one of the top employers say, hey, I need to talk to you because I'm concerned about something, and I know he would answer the call.

I feel like it should be the same for the nonprofit sector. Do you have any advice for anyone who might be on a nonprofit board. Any advice that you have from a governance role? Yeah, I'm going to plug our, our training that propel.

I mean, I if cost is an issue, reach out to me because I would love for our trainings to be fully booked every single time. But I think we have some great, board governance trainings. I think that any time someone starts a, a new role as board chair, for example, or a new executive, we have a training that actually brings both of them together in, in our trainings so that they can understand what each other's role is, because we need those two folks to they don't need to fully like each other, but they better be on the same page.

But yes, I would encourage folks to come to our trainings, and I know we're not the only ones. Minnesota Council nonprofits has trainings as well that I think are excellent. Yeah. So we've talked about a lot of things, but I want to talk a little bit more about your journey to propel.

So just say a little bit like introduce like how do you introduce yourself. And then and then the work that you're doing. you know, I start by saying, you know, I was born in California, to immigrant parents. My parents were able to buy their first home in Las Vegas for hours.

The way they move four hours away, because that's where they can buy a home, right? To them. That was, for them. And I'm happy of that and glad that they did that.

And so I grew up in Las Vegas, and I went to the University of Nevada, Las Vegas there, where I got a dual degree in women's studies and political science. And, a few years later, I couldn't find the job. And I want people to know that just I couldn't find the job, guys. It happens to everybody.

And I'm one of those folks. And what it did to me at the time and how I felt and again, maybe the hit of like, my own value. It's like, you know, it was 2008 again and it was a difficult time. But it also made me recalibrate and say, like I always said, I was going to work at a nonprofit or supporting community.

So I'm going to stop looking for these jobs that are, at least at the time, pay me what I thought I should earn Thinking more of like, I'm going to go somewhere with a mission that I feel close to and I just happen to find a job in Minnesota working at Youth And so that's how you got here. And that's just like that's cool. And, I always knew the what it's like to grow up in extreme poverty, but I never knew what it's like to be a homeless youth. And can I tell you that I felt like I was already somewhat of a humble upbringing and that humbled me.

But it humbles you when you are working with homeless youth. That's another level, you know? And from there, I just made my career in the nonprofit sector, a little bit at the state, worked up the state as well. And, but I've always admired the work that propelled does.

And I actually went to trainings and just thought highly of the organization, to be honest, never thinking that I would lead it at some point. And, because I loved everywhere I've been, I've loved being. And I think it's because it's made me do work for the community that I care about. I just love every job I've had.

So when you hear me say, this is the best job I've ever had, that is true for every job I've ever had since coming from Minnesota. And, so it was hard for me to leave the Latino Economic Development Center because I got to work with my own community directly. But I also felt like the skill sets that I have learned there with the hybrid of, you know, the access to capital to nonprofits and being able to grant, you know, we also do grants like it was just I feel like I'm a hybrid, Shonda.

you know, you're the foundation. Here's the nonprofits. I'm the cousin. You're right.

You're like, right in there. Yeah. And that's how I see it. I like sometimes I want, actually, our philanthropic leaders to not think that I'm just coming to you to ask you for something.

I want every. And I hope maybe this is how you can help me out someday. Yeah. Remind folks that I also could be a thought partner.

Yeah. you know? So. there's an interesting shift that I think you're in the midst of.

Let me think, if I can articulate this and then tell me if I'm hitting it right. So, because I feel like I have done this and I'm stay in seasons of evolution, right? As a, as a learner. So you come from LA, you come from, you know, family, right.

Less resources. You're navigating all the things that we've talked about. So your career has been spent on proving, right, doing being prepared, sort of like grinding. Like you're proving that you need to be here, and you stay in this this grind.

There's a point in which you are proven, but you gotta get rid of some of those behaviors from the past that, that have really shaped your leadership. So, like, you're in a place of pivot to I actually have demonstrated success behind me. And I have opportunity in front of me. Right.

And to stand in the knowledge of like, worthiness. Proven lessons expert is often not an easy place to sit. But you're learning to accept these words. Yeah.

Yeah. That's exactly. Yeah. So you feel like an expert?

so yes, the answer is yes. I'm the I feel like I'm becoming an expert. Because I'm always learning. Yeah.

I like to learn. I'm, You know, I like to know a little bit of everything. Like, every, every topic interests me But I wanted to go back, just, you know, the like I'm always took it series that no matter how hard I've worked to something or like, I've always wanted to make sure that, like, whoever is around me or coming behind me doesn't have to go through the same barriers that I have. Some examples are as soon as I got to a place where I felt like, wow, the, I don't know, the first Latino to ever leave this place.

Yeah I've been there. Well, I better not be the last one. That's it. Yeah.

What does it mean to be the first. I think like again a lot of self-imposed pressure At least now as I reflect, it's like I, I always felt like, well, I can't fail. And I remember my first job. It's like I was working like 7 to 8 hours a week because there wasn't any way to be able to hire anybody.

So I needed to prove that we can do this, to then be reimbursed, to be able to go after a grant to generate that. And so I at times I also felt like I didn't know who to communicate with for advice. And that's something that I know you do, and I'm doing a lot of is I don't have, like, mentees. I don't have that.

Like, I don't call it that. To me, it's just more of like, but we we good. Yeah. Just call me if you need some.

That's my class. Yeah. I'm. I'm trying to have a structure of like.

but but to the point that's like, I'm gonna have been the first in some of these places. But the moment I get there, I already know who my replacement is. And people always say like, no, you don't. I'm like, yes, I do.

Because in my interview process, I'm already thinking like, you know, Monica or Javier or so-and-so can do this too. And if they're not there yet, I'm going to help them get there. Yeah. Why is that important.

I mean that's a commitment. That I know a lot of leaders have, but there's a number that don't. Right. I'm always surprised.

When it's time for secession conversations, how wildly wrong they can go or wildly right. Like, there doesn't seem to be like a middle. But what what should the sector be thinking about differently as it comes to two things. One is preparing someone so that they might be able to replace you if that's their choice.

Right. Preparing someone for readiness does not mean that they will actually get it. But which is the higher the higher you go get involved in that decision. Yeah, but what should we be thinking about differently as we prepare next gen leaders?

like, are we getting it right in this sector? What should we be doing differently in terms of preparing leaders? I think again, remember how I mentioned that I talked to my kids as if they're like little adults? I, I also try to push folks to do what even what they thought they couldn't do.

Or finding opportunities that maybe came to me that it's just like, yeah, I'll get to that. Hey, so, so let's, let's work on this together. But really, see, you can do it. You actually just did it yourself.

You know creating those opportunities for them. can we talk about equity around pay. Yeah. Let's talk about it because like, you know this is the other thing I, I try to do like no matter who gets whatever job I had before, you know, it's like I normally start down here because, again, they didn't think that I was worth this much, even though I always think that the first couple of years, it's actually when they should have paid somebody the most because it's like the hardest time, and the time you're working the most.

And so like every time I leave, I always tell the board like, hey, just, you know, this is what I'm making right now. This is how much I think you should pay this next person. But and it's always like, well, they don't even have the experience that you had when you started and you want them to get paid more than what you're making right now. And I'm like, yes, because that's how much I should have probably gotten paid in the first.

And I'm proud of that. I'm proud of that. I've not only helped many of them, but you brought parity to the parity. Especially around women.

To me that's important. That's like. I had a, I did a podcast with Miguel MC Moore from KP companies and we had a conversation around salaries and compensation being listed. Right.

So many people know I have an opinion on it. I do have an opinion on it. It doesn't necessarily matter because now it's in LA and other stuff. But part of what her point was around this as a search firm is that you have women and people of color that are underpaid in their positions that they're in.

So then they see a job that pays way more and they will exclude themselves, even though they've actually been doing the work. And so that that becomes really important in terms of the negotiation. But how many people will exclude themselves from it or not negotiate, into those roles? Yeah.

Yeah I see it among or or people all the time too, is just like this, this humble servitude, who, and, and or hey, you know, I'm used to making 40 a year for so long that now that they're in, they get to 60. They're like, this is great. But the position is probably in Or the or even for a leader where, you know, it's anything over 100 I think some folks are already like oh but, but but all these folks, you know I think we always want to bring folks in in this weird way, in almost the like devalues values like like what this person should be making, Because you talked about.

I'm going back to ice. I'm going back to where we're sitting in Minnesota because we have, national people that listen to this. So you talked about this as a new right? There's been for decades.

But did you ever imagine this day, like this time that we're living through because, like, I've imagined some stuff I've never envisioned this, you know, this is sad to say, but I think I couldn't say yes or no to that. But I could tell you that I've lived through close people to me being detained, being deported, being separated from the families that that was happening, that's been happening, you know, and so not at the scale, but I know how it feels to have someone that you care about all of a sudden they're not going to live here anymore, you know.

what should we be doing about our democracy? know? Well, I always say this, Latinos for me were really good at traditions. And my family voting has become a tradition and they will always be part of our tradition.

I always take my kids with me, and I know that this has become a tradition for not just Latino will form It needs to be part of our tradition as Americans and I always used to tell folks that I know what it's like to have parents who haven't been able to vote until very recently. Again, 40 year old man like to have my mother, you know, continue to clean hotel rooms and continue to work hard and be part of what I think is America, but not be able to vote or not be able to participate in other ways.

That that doesn't make sense to me. And so always I've always felt that, I vote because that when I vote, I'm voting for my mom. At the time, I was voting for my mother or for my grandmother, and now I vote for myself, for my family. But I also vote for those that kids.

And I need to become part of a tradition. And as long as we continue to do that, I think at some point we could fix what's not working in our country. That's the whole point of democracy is it's about fixing things, not making it worse. And, I think our country is making things worse, not just for immigrants, but for all of us.

We should all feel safe. And I don't know if everybody in Minnesota, actually, I know that most people in Minnesota don't feel that way. You know across the country. Yeah.

Did it did Minnesotans surprise you. know, because I yes and no. Can I tell you the maybe the way I want to answer that question is, you know, I married a Minnesota minnesotan woman. So when Renee Goode happened, they didn't say a name.

They just described what half of the white women in Minnesota Yeah, you're right. So I'm quickly worried about my wife because, yeah, we spend a lot of time in south Minneapolis. It was interesting because I was worried about myself. My wife was worried about myself, about my kids because of how we look.

And then all of a sudden it's like, is it weird to also worry about my wife now? So now it almost made us all be worried about our own safety and I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it was like a a juxtaposition of emotions for me to be like, this is been an issue for, for me my whole life. And now it's mixing the safety of white Minnesotans too, you know? And so I felt like in this weird way, I felt like.

I feel strange about that, you know? Yeah, I would tell people, you know, people, you know, the immigrant communities for certain have a different level of, being targeted in this moment. But when you look at who's been harmed, it's been all of us. And I'm like, it's always been relatively easy to say this is a black issue or this is this issue.

This is for them and not for me. And this is really shaking it all up. We have two white Minnesotans that were killed. Yeah.

And we have mutual aid that's happening, I think. I don't know if I was surprised because I believe in Minnesotans and I know how we should. I mean, I believe in us, right? And how we show up.

But I'm also really, like, surprised, like every person I talked to, I'm like, I'm driving kids to school. I've done this thing. I never thought I would do this, but I felt compelled. I've watched folks that, like any given me, maybe not even say a word, but that were willing to put their bodies in the middle of a sidewalk or to blow this, you know, the whistle or to participate in training.

It has been, it has produced so much hope for me. Can I say so under the my relationship with Minnesota has been interesting. It's the place that I've lived the longest. Moves so much when I was a kid, and it hit me about a year or two ago.

I told my wife I was doing the math, and I'm like, you know, now it's been 18 years since I've moved Minnesota, and it makes it the plays that have lived the longest. So that I actually feel weird when people ask me, where are you from? Am I really from Long Beach from Las Vegas. I'm from from Minnesota.

When I go to national conferences or I'm on a panel or I'm getting a chance to say something publicly, I always introduce myself as, Minnesota. No, I'm Minnesotan, my kids are Minnesota. My wife is Minnesotan, I'm Minnesotan. But I always felt, especially at the beginning, weird about this whole Minnesota Nice thing.

But I can tell you I feel very different about what Minnesota Nice means now. How has it changed for you. What is. I mean, this is the true meaning of Minnesota nice and the Minnesota love that I'm feeling.

To your point about how everybody has come together is so special. And you can feel it like even our neighbors. I have a good relationship with all of my neighbors. But I had this incident, a couple weeks ago where there was an ice, Ice agents about a block away from my house.

And I quickly go into, you know, rapid response mode to support the neighbors that needed to protect themselves and it was freezing. And I can see that some other folks are seeing that I'm running around and doing this. And then all of my neighbors were like, Henry, what do you need us to do? Including neighbors that I've never talked politics with?

Quite frankly, I'm not even sure that we're even in the same political sphere. But in that moment, they were interested in being a neighbor to support not just me, but those other families that can't do much at that time. And that's where I would say that that Minnesota Nice or that Minnesota love is we have stepped it up as a as state and we have it's clear. Yeah, I'm proud of us.

I'm proud of us. I love I love being a Minnesota mom. It has been I mean, in a in a bunch of narratives that have not been, have not, I think, communicated the fullness of who we are. We have taught the world who we are through a set of things, and hopefully, and I can see the energy of this moment, being contagious.

And I hope that those are listening. Right. The way that you get to know your neighbor, the way that you're willing to stand up to support, right, the number of people getting kids in school or making sure they're learning during this period of time. I don't even know if we'll ever be able to fully document it, because it's like it's an underground.

I was talking to my team and I'm like, you know, almost everybody, in this room has come from a community that had to navigate through something that there was an underground system of support that allowed for you to be here right now. And that's what we're seeing now that is allowing for people to be here right now. think just and I don't want to get to the politics of just how we've organized as Minnesotans. But.

I think that we'll see some of the highs, voter turnout in the country because of how everybody's come together. And I think we're going to see maybe higher levels of giving for years to come, just because of the networks that have been created. I think, you know, the pandemic, something happened during the pandemic, and I could tell you that the last couple months, it's almost like we picked up where we left off and, like, started running together as, as neighbors and, I very much look forward to getting past this.

And I don't know how long this will last, but getting past this and being able to focus on just moving ourselves forward in a positive way, and I think people are ready for that.