How to Communicate with More Presence, Impact and Authenticity

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Speaker B: hello, everyone. Welcome. And welcome. Barbara McAfee. I had to learn her name because she was asking me if I can pronounce her name. And I believe we all have this problem in the world because if you know Barbara, my surname, my ex surname, you will laugh because he's Slovak and he's very long. So I don't think anyone can pronounce my surname.

Speaker C: It's a.

Speaker B: It's a great start. I love that. And, uh, look, um, I would love for everyone who is listening today to just really listen to Barbara, because I believe what she is teaching, she also preach. Preaches. I think that's the better way to say it. Um, because of her voice and how she communicate, how she expressed herself and how she actually, uh, kind of share her message. It will be very interesting for everyone who is maybe, you know, in a coaching industry or leader or any executive that needs to put out there the message, you know, and share the vision and speak, uh, authentically. I believe we will cover all these things today with Bara, who is a voice coach, author, speaker, performer with over 30 years of experience, and she, um, published some beautiful books. And I'm just looking forward to this conversation. So welcome, Barbara.

Speaker C: Thank you so much for that invitation. And yes, names can be a challenge for almost any of us, especially since it's one of the first things we say.

Speaker B: Yes. I struggled for, like, 38 years, and I was so happy when I got married. I was like, yes, I'm changing name and it's from the most difficult name to most easy and simple ways, uh, name. So it's really good transformation. Yes, I, uh, agree. So, yeah. Barbara, tell us a little bit about your background. How did you become a voice coach? What brought you into that idea that people, you know, need that, um, express themselves, voice themselves and communicate better? Like, what brought you into the idea and how. How did all kind of, uh, come to the life?

Speaker C: Well, like many of us, I came to my work through my own challenges. I had a good experience as a child singing in choirs, like many of us do, but I never wanted to sing alone in front of anyone. And I was very nervous about being seen and heard, which is tricky because I am a very tall woman. I'm a meter 86 or 6 foot 2, depending on your scale. So I'm a giant. So good luck hiding. Right. And so just. Just between, uh, a lot of different factors, I had lots of limits in my voice. I felt like I couldn't quite say what I needed to say or sing what I could hear in my imagination. And I got interested in why, because my family, uh, you know, it's very common to be afraid of singing. But in my family, my grandfather sang on the radio. My mother was a soloist. My brother was in a band and sang. So there was all this support around me, and then I was stuck. And so I got angry, uh, because I started singing jazz in, um, clubs in my 20s and was so afraid that I got angry and started to work with a voice coach. And mostly I just cried. And so there was a lot of challenges locked up in my own voice and body, and I started unwinding those.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Found some amazing teachers and eventually started teaching myself.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. And I will probably tap into that, what you said, because I felt like I was going through that kind of stage of I don't know how to communicate. I almost felt like I had the potato in my throat. And when I was going to say something or share something, even though I was in audience and I wanted to just, you know, share or, you know, raise my hand and share something. So. So why I was feeling that way, like. Like what? Actually, is that how you like, you. You felt the same way, right? Like you didn't know how to voice yourself or speak or say what you want to say. And it always sound, um, different when. Out loud, when you share that, like, you know, it sound in your head. And, uh. Oh, my God. I experienced that with singing. Of course, my singing in my head just sounds so perfect. So why Is that what's holding that voice away from being fully expressed?

Speaker C: There are so, so many things, and a lot of them, um, are. Yes, there's so many things. There is, uh, there's just, of course, childhood, and everybody had to grow up too quickly. So we all get messages about being quiet or especially. Women are supposed to be nice all the time or don't make your father irritated or whatever. So there's sometimes family stuff that happens, abuse or even just stuff. And then there's cultural things about how you're supposed to be a good woman, a good man, a good person, a good leader, a good. I don't know what. And that layers on there. And then sometimes people get some sort of injury, you know, that's not as common, but there's sometimes people get, uh, hurt somehow. And then different languages make our voices sound different. I bet you sound different in your original language than you do in English.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker C: Uh, yeah, you sing a different song. So language, culture, uh, mood, all kinds of things affect the voice. And most of us don't notice that we have more than what's coming out of our mouth right now. We feel sort of like, oh, that's just the way it is. And it isn't. It's, uh, much bigger than we imagine. But we mostly don't have any opportunities to explore beyond the everyday, normal thing that has been kind of put together really by accident and often not very much to our advantage.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. So there are a few different layers of us to being able to express ourselves. And all those blockages can be trauma experiences. Someone shut us down, or we say something stupid and we felt embarrassed. So all these small moments, I believe, uh, build us up. Right. And then you said, there is a culture and expectations, I guess, because when you are a good leader, what you actually say. So. So it is almost like we are run by fear. Right? Like, so it's. It's all that fear actually blocking us. Okay, so. Okay, so do you. Would you like to go deeper into it and. And maybe tell us your story? What you find out, you know, what was blocking you and how you actually unlock it. And, like, what was your journey? A little bit, uh, in more detail. So people can actually kind of see themselves in that? Because I believe that's true for a lot of people that are listening.

Speaker C: Well, it was. It was a very. I feel so fortunate. I went to a voice workshop with members of the Roy Hart Center. It is a center in the south of France, and some teachers came to Minneapolis, where I lived, for A long, long time. And I don't know why I went, because I was so afraid. But my teacher at the time that I trusted said, okay, go to this. And I was like, okay. And when I walked in, I thought I had a whole story about what was wrong with me, you know, which was a lot. Everybody, you know, most places we walk in, we walk in like feeling like we don't belong there or something bad is going to happen. I thought my voice stopped completely here, which is not that high, especially because I was in my 20s at the time. And in that first workshop I made sound like almost to the top of the piano.

Speaker B: Yeah,

Speaker C: that was a turning point because I, I had to not just change my idea about my voice, but about everything. Like, what else am, um, I wrong about? You know, how else am I wrong about me? In. In ways I don't know. And one of the things that made it possible was my teacher, Shaol Ryan, very gentle, kind, playful man, was inviting me outside of who I thought I was. I wasn't myself when I sang that note. I was a bird. I was this big eagle, you know, screaming out of the sky. And it took all my physical energy and I realized that all my life I'd been like, you know, shut down, quieter, blend with the alto section in the choir, sit still, be, you know, and no one had asked me for all the sound that was inside of me. And they did. And that was so liberating because so much of what was making me fearful was perfectionism. M which is what gets a lot of us going. And I would make these sounds that at first I thought, that's terrible, that's a mistake. It cracked, you know, it made a strange noise. And then Shell is this lovely British man and he'd m say, hm, interesting or, hm, lovely. And I was like, oh, actually it is. It's not pretty, but it's beautiful and powerful and raw and alive. And that changed the course of my life. I kept studying with them, he and his, um, colleague who would come to teach in my town. I got a grant and went to the center in France and studied and studied with other teachers in Canada and really kept finding more of the aspects of myself that had been lost. And most of them were m maybe wild and primal, you know, compared to all the well behaved things. Now, I didn't start walking around in the world screaming like a bird all the time, but I felt like I knew that was a part of me. And so I felt like I had more options. I showed up more whole and alive. And down in the deep, dark, grounded part. So it was a lot of healing and learning through play. Also terrifying at times.

Speaker B: I love that there's so much, so much in what you just said. And I think that's. I can see it have, uh, or how people want to express themselves and their copy and paste of someone else. Right. Like m. It's always just being or doing something that already someone has done. And it makes me almost cry because it's just such a strong, um, societal pressure maybe, and, you know, how it should be and supposed to be. And I love that you actually wear the robe and primal and you know, that scream and whatever sound it is. Right. And that's what I feel like, even in me. Like it's there and it's bubbling and. And I just, you know, I'm just staying quiet so many times because, you know, if I say that I will be judged if I, you know, go out there fully. Oh, uh, people will be like, wow, so, so this is you. And. And it's really hard because this is true for so many people. Right? Because when. When they really show who they are authentically, it's so much easier to connect with them and they're so scared on other side. So I love what you're sharing because there's so much fear and so much. Yeah, it's almost like holding back and it's crunch and it's the heavy energy. And when you go out there. Oh, I can feel, you know, how you just. You grew for the story. So it's awesome. And um. So yeah, okay, so let's say seven people now listening. And um, they. They found themselves like, yes, I have this desire to just going out there and finally be me and, and say things how they are and just fully express myself. So, so do you have techni. Have some ideas where to start, what to do and how to move through, you know, that journey?

Speaker C: Well, I always start. Well. I made a framework out of what I was learning from these teachers at the Roy Hart Center. And then, uh, I combined it with a yoga practice, you know, the chakra system and some union psychology around archetypes, shadow and the collective unconscious. And then I also was a leadership development consultant. So I got to see, you know, a lot of communication breakdown. I got to see a lot of great communication as well. And I. And because I'm a voice person, I kept going, oh, there are certain vocal qualities that maybe reveal someone's gifts. And so I created this five elements framework that. That puts all of that together. And I've Written two books about it, and I now teach it for. Have been teaching for a long time, and it holds up across culture, gender, class. I mean, it's.

Speaker B: It's.

Speaker C: So far, it's held up really well. So I just would love to just briefly introduce it to you, and then maybe we can talk about how. A couple of specific things to do to get started.

Speaker B: Yeah. Amazing.

Speaker C: So the premise, it's. There's a few premises underneath it. One is it starts with sound, like that work did with me back in the 80s. Um, beyond speaking and singing, because most of us don't ever go there unless we, you know, um, yawn or we hit our thumb with a hammer.

Speaker B: Ow.

Speaker C: You know, there's mostly. We're in a very small range.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And so I like to take the voice out and just let it run in these elements. And the elements are earth, fire, water, metal, and air. And each one has a different sound as you can hear, and each one has a different kind of function. So earth is great for projecting authority.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Setting a boundary. Uh, and getting, like, really connected to your animal instinct, your gut, because it's kind of connected to your lower body.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Calm, solid. Right. Like Earth. Uh, fire is more like fire in the belly. It's all about passion, and it's great for public speaking. And it really wakes up your body, really gets your energy going.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker C: You can feel it. It's my. It's my home. Especially when I'm doing something like this.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's too excitable.

Speaker C: Yeah. And then water is kind of the voice of the heart, and so that's better for singing lullabies. I know. Right before we got on this recording.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's what I. Yeah.

Speaker C: Because if we sang to the babies like this, they'd never go to sleep.

Speaker B: Exactly. So true. Yeah. So I totally adjusted my voice, and it's totally different. Yeah, absolutely. And it feels like it's from heart because you're focusing on calming down and. Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah. And it's good for, um. Even in a professional setting, if you have difficult news to. I was just speaking with a friend of mine, and they're. They're doing layoffs in her company. And so I said, how are they doing? You know, are they doing it in a good way? And she's like, no, they're just not. They're not. They're not attending to the heart. You know, they're just. It's. It's very strange. So, you know, we all have to deliver bad news and receive bad news and so having it with a heart makes it seem better. It's also good for like affirming someone. Good job. Oh, it's so happy. I'm so happy to see you. So it's an intimate kind of conversation voice. Yeah. And then metal is bright and pointy and shiny like this. And mostly what metal is good for is getting louder without hurting your voice. So I was working with a gentleman, uh, who does a couple of two or three day trainings sometimes and he talks down here in the earth voice, which is a lovely voice, but it's. He was using just one voice over and over again.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: And when you do that with your body, you get repetitive stress injury. And you can do that with your voice too, right?

Speaker B: Yeah. I will ask you about this because what happened, what I noticed a lot of people when we meet at networking event next day, everybody says that I was my voice. Or during the 2, 3 hours of screaming because it's very loud room, people just talk and maybe it's music in behind, you know, in background and people try to just raise their voice. And I found myself to struggle after one hour or two hours. I just, I struggled to actually talk because I, uh, like my voice is not anymore strong and, and I can't. Yeah. Can't be heard. So. So what is the magic, like how to use metal. Metal is that. Yeah, that, that voice that you need to tap into.

Speaker C: So, yeah, it's very nasal and. And you are. You have a lovely earth voice, by the way. Alex, you have a gorgeous earth voice.

Speaker B: Too much earth voice.

Speaker C: Well, compared to what? I mean, it's good until they're all great. Until they're terrible. Right. It's a lovely voice for podcasting, terrible for networking.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: And so terrible. And. And I used to be a caregiver for my sweet departed mother. She. She died a few years ago, but she would lose a hearing aid sometimes and so I could talk to her like this. A Sports coaches also use this. It's like, all right, listen up, we're going to do another. It's all like, right out of your, your nose area. Okay.

Speaker B: So come on, come on, we can do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: But it's a little, um, sometimes I'll use a character like a cat to exaggerate. Right. These, these qualities. But I actually use different characters to exaggerate. That's the other thing. But, so metal is good for getting loud without strain and getting really clear and focused. Also, I think if you speak more clearly, you might think more clearly as well.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And then finally, there's air. And air is good for sharing stories. What did you say?

Speaker B: I'm sorry, I didn't hear meditation or, like, guiding people for yoga classes, maybe, or.

Speaker C: Exactly. It can be. It's a yoga teacher voice. Usually air and. Or water. It's like, take a deep breath. But it's also good for telling stories because you're kind of taking people somewhere else. Right. And it's also good if you want to wake up people's imagination with a new idea. So you could be talking along. You'd say, I have an idea. Or you can say, I have an idea. It's like, oh, what is that?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: It's intriguing. Yeah.

Speaker B: Curiosity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, yeah. So those are the five. And I usually do use, uh, characters to isolate and exaggerate them just to sort of give people an opportunity to. Sometimes a big change is easier than a small one.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And the character. The character helps you step outside of who you think you are. That's usually. The voice is usually ready to go. The psyche. It's like, no, I. I have a low voice, or I'm a woman, or I. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever. It's part of the story, but there's more outside there. So those are the five elements.

Speaker B: I love it. And, uh, absolutely love it because I experienced that. So when I talk about networking or when I talk about speaking, you know, sometimes you have a very loud room and you need to actually use different voice to call everyone in, you know, to pay attention. Then you need to kind of change the voice. And I love it. You said the story, the air and water. Because it's almost like people want to lean in right. When you. When you're quiet and soft. And it's like, I know something. I know it's very. Like, it's still exciting and it's. Yeah, I love that. So it's actually playing with the. With the other person psychology as well.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Like, we can actually exactly command people basically how they feel when they talk to us. Uh, I love that.

Speaker C: And most. And most of us, when something's not working, we just do more of it. You know, we all know when we're not. We're not landing with someone when something's not working. And so some of us, like, might be coming with a lot of fire and passion and excitement, and it might be a bit much for someone. They see them kind of back up and their eyes get a little big, and you might want to just shift into water and say, well, m. You know, we're just looking for a connection. And it gets harder all the time because we're so exhausted and distracted.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker C: People are exhausted and distracted. So to be able to read, you know, I think so much about what I'm going to say, and that's good. But it's very important to also think about, well, how am I going to say this? What's the setting? Who's my audience? What's the emotion, uh, the emotion underneath the words I'm saying? And how can I convey that in a way that it will be understood by the people who I'm speaking to?

Speaker B: Yeah, and I think that's the. That's very important point. When we talk about speakers or facilitators or even coaches and people, they actually go share something on a stage. Because I think what you mentioned, I feel like it's also in negotiation or like you can use it in negotiation or you can use it in, uh, um, I guess team, right? Like when you know your team members. But you mentioned archetypes and some kind of probably, uh, personalities, right? So. So. So is there, like, is there any, like, a match that we can do? Because I know, for example, when you look at the disc, right, like behavioral profiles, you have dominant people, you use different voice. And now, you know, you have these people, they just compliant and they really want to have everything perfectly done. They're probably perfectionist. So again, you need to talk to them, like, really different way. And it's funny how you mirror, right? Like, I mirror already. You. I mirror already more. I guess I don't know even how. How to voice or how to say it. Like, it's almost. I feel like I'm acting, right? Like, it's. It's funny how we do that with people. So. So can you tell me more about that? Like how. How do we match people or how do you realize, uh, like who is actually in our audience or how you recognize those things?

Speaker C: You know, I don't. I don't like. I like to give people a lot of options. So awareness, definitely, and flexibility. That's what I'm looking for. And what I find is that when people become more tuned into their own voice, they listen differently. So they may not know the disc or the. Whatever, Myers Briggs or whatever, but sometimes the voice will tell us something. So I didn't like the air voice at all. It was like, ugh, you know, I'm not that kind of girl and never have been, right? Never. Never could be, you know? So I just like, threw that away and said, that's not Me? Um, no, I didn't think you would either because it just doesn't show up anywhere. And so. But, um, I've made friends with it now, and I sing a lot with it, and it has become part of me now. I've healed it. But I still, uh, sometimes I have a friend, and she's a lovely woman, but she talks up here, you know, she's like, super dreamy and brilliant. She's so great. But, oh, my gosh, I have to work with myself a little.

Speaker B: Yeah, right.

Speaker C: I have to say, that's not her, Barbara. That's you. That's the part of your air voice you haven't welcomed home yet, because otherwise you could be. Just listen to her. And she is a person who is a visionary. She can see the future before everybody else. She dreams really big. And the voice, the air voice is a lot about that, about, uh, what's possible, what's not here yet, what's in the dream time yet. And so a lot of times that having that, like, little framework in your mind, if the person is talking and they're extremely dull and not very interesting and everything is kind of flat, that's boring. I will ask that person, are you the person who stays calm when everyone else is losing their minds? And they usually look a little proud and say, yeah, you know, and so. So they're all so good until they're not. So that was great for, like, he was a president of a company and. And it was going through a lot of change, and he was a solid, steady leader. But we worked on his fire, uh, especially because he had a big presentation to give at an international conference, and he wasn't going to get very far like this. And so we got him, like, I had him pretending to be like a preacher, you know, And I tell you, I took him, had to make his presentation really, really big, and he had a blast and he had a big voice. Turns out he just didn't really use it very much. And we got him used to it. You know, he integrated that into who he thinks he is. Um, he's still a quiet, steady guy, but when he needs to go into the fire to make a presentation, he can do that. So to me, it's more about becoming more flexible in how you're expressing yourself and then see what's working with that individual person in that individual moment. Because it's changing all the time.

Speaker B: Yeah. So it's almost. I love what you said because we don't need to go through some psycho tests and go all assessments and but basically, very simple way we can recognize personality through the voice. And I love what you said, you know, steady and, uh, are you calm? And you need that in leadership, right? So I think if leaders learn to access all of the voice, those voices, and basically come out as a different person almost, but it's still authentic because it's still you. It's just expression of you when you feel with people. Because a lot of people don't know how to be there as a human if they are leading people. And most of the time, I have question, you know, how to create a boundary with people that, you know, I like. They're my colleagues, but I'm their leader. And I don't want to become too much friend because then, you know, it will be hard to do some, you know, hard conversations or. Or, you know, uh, I will need to maybe say goodbye to them. It's. It's just. It really becomes tough, and I love that. I can see now how you can use voice as a part of it, you know, as a. As a disconnected situation. Almost like right now we are friends, we talk different way, right? But now as a leader, I express that different way. So you actually, as my colleague, as a team member, you can adjust your feelings and emotions or psychology around how I act right now because I'm creating boundaries with the voice. That's absolutely amazing. I honestly, I never heard of this, uh, type of work, so I'm very excited. And it just. It's fascinating how simple it is. Right? And how simple we can.

Speaker C: It is.

Speaker B: We can actually recognize people. So. Yeah, that's. That's awesome. And I would like to know, um, probably like. Okay, so where we can start? Like, I know you've mentioned awareness, right. So I'm sure that we need to first be awareness, what is maybe our predominant voice or predominant way of expressing ourselves. And. And what's then like, we find out that we have a lot of, uh, you know, like, I have excitement or I have, you know, grounded. So what. What's next for me?

Speaker C: Well, I think one of the most important things is to just start noticing how you already change your voice. So you just had that experience. You were singing to your son in a very different voice than you're talking to me right now. And if people have small children or. Or pets in their lives, they're probably using air. Who's a good dog? Oh, look at that sweet face. Oh, come your mama. Come on.

Speaker B: Yeah, right?

Speaker C: We have different voices for. And that's an extreme example, but also with different. Like, if you don't trust someone very much. What happens to your voice? I think just listening to your own voice and other people's with a little different. Especially having sort of the basic framework of in in mind. And there's lots of resources available. There's a. I did a TED talk about it. Uh, there's. I'm sure there'll be things in the show notes where people can just kind of review those things that are at my website. And it's like just to start noticing how you do it already. I have a friend, and we laugh like witches. I don't laugh like that with any other friend, but when I'm with her, we're like. And we find each other very funny. So it's just to start paying attention to your voice and how it changes and then notice other people's voices. So that's a huge place to start because most of us are noticing them unconsciously. To bring a little consciousness to it is a huge first step. And then I also like to get people singing in their car, in the shower somewhere, because there's speaking, which is a pretty narrow range for most of us. And then there's sound, which is where I like to play with people, but right in between is singing. And so I often encourage people to make a playlist of songs they love to sing with a variety of different artists, you know, with a, uh, Dolly Parton or a Leonard Cohen or, you know, just with very different sounds. And then that's like exercise, you know, using different parts of your voice and noticing like, oh, this feels really awkward, or I love this, right? And so sometimes I think that singing practice can, uh, can help. And then the other thing I like to suggest is reading children's books out loud, even if you don't have children around, because we will change our voice. And then the giant said fee 5. You know, people just naturally do that. And that's a way to sort of exercise more range. I don't suggest you talk like that at work, but it'll help you sort of map out the territory a little bit more. Like what is actually available to you.

Speaker B: So those are some starting places that is amazing. And I think they're all amazing tools. Just because when we start to exercise something or do something, you know, daily or weekly, we start to have a little bit of routine. We actually then have. Have access, even subconsciously, to different voices. So I feel like then, uh, our mind and our body adjust to something that we realize one day, you know, after practicing six months, we realize that we have access to Something. Wow. Like, I just use it. I don't know even how. So I think that's awesome. Yeah, I think that's why all the people say, you know, acting classes are great because, for example, English is not my first language. So they always said, just go to acting classes. So you get a little bit of idea of, you know, how to pronounce and how to announce. Um, and it was my friend always teaching me is like, you need to announce. You know, like, Alex, uh, nobody understands you. So I need to slow down and open my mouth. Because it's very different in Slovak language. We don't do that. We just speak like that very fast. But I can understand.

Speaker C: So.

Speaker B: So people like, oh, my God, like, you need to slow down. So being aware and. And use all those small tricks. I love that. And there's something I noticed as well in singing, and I'm sure a lot of people notice when is your natural voice, let's say, grounding, or like you mentioned that that is more earth. Uh, this. The songs. When there is this deeper, earthy, you know, like. Like strong, uh, kind of singing style. I can sing better than the other ones, so. So it feels like I can sing, right? Like, in that part of the song, I'm like, yeah, I can sing. You know, uh, I'm good. And then you. And you come to different part of song. You're like, oh, my God, I can't do this. How I do that?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's different ranges that are more comfortable, you know, depending.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker C: And it's possible to grow that. Mine has grown a lot. And. And I also want to say that our voices are also working on us. So, I mean, if you're talking in a way that's like, very tense and very tight, you know, it's not just. It's not just a. Affecting your listener. Your whole nervous system is like, ah, you know. And, uh, likewise, if you're like, ah, uh, that just changed my whole. I mean, I just felt my whole. All the muscles in my back relax.

Speaker B: I feel it.

Speaker C: So, yeah, our voices are affecting each other all the time and our own nervous systems as well. So it's not just an outside job. It's an inside job as well. And so for me, I like to, uh. One of the other things I've noticed is that speaking well feels really good. It just feels good to like, have breath moving through my voice and to have some expression. And I just feel like that feels like it's a sensory pleasure to speak now. And that's infectious too. The pleasure and the er is, uh, you know, we're affecting ourselves and each other.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm sure you also use neuroscience, uh, based of kind of information. Right. Like we are influencing each other. And I believe with that voice, you know, when we have angry voice or we speak all the time, like that is. It's actually increasing cortisol and we feel different. So it is amazing. Right. And it's another kind of part of. Of totally different thing that we can bring, uh, attention to. And I love that because it's so simple. Uh, you gave us amazing framework. It's super simple to remember. It's super simple to notice that, focus on that. And also very simple exercises. One reading, singing in the shower or in the car. Oh my gosh. I'm sure everybody does it or, uh, almost everyone does it. So, so noticing. Yeah. What is happening with our voice. And yeah, I love music and I think even though I'm not a great singer, it feels healing by if I need, you know, every song, it really creates different energy, different emotions. So I love that. Okay, this is. This is perfect. I. I definitely would love to have you on my workshops or some of my retreats because I love this type of work and I think that's such a great addition into everything. What we do with our mind and emotions and energy and now bringing the voice into that, it's. It's absolutely great. So. Yay, Barbara, where. Where we can find you, how people can work with you. What do you. What do you suggest now? Like, now they have the awareness. Uh, they started to, uh, read the books and exercise. So what's next for them and how they can connect with you?

Speaker C: Well, I welcome questions anytime. And the easiest way to connect with me is through my website. There's two TED Talks on there, a lot of my music because I am a singer, and some exercises and lots of. Lots and lots of resources and can links to both books as well. Um, so that's the easiest way to connect. And I'm on Instagram and Facebook too, but that. I think the website's the best entrance.

Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you very much, Barbara. And do you have anything else, like your last kind of things for people that you feel like they should hear right now? And. Yeah.

Speaker C: Yes, I, um, am. And I will send you this for. Include, uh, for, you know, including in the show notes. There's a little song I made, um, and it's based on a quote by the great Sufi m. Mystic Hafiz. And it goes. I wish that I could show you. I wish that I could show you whenever you are lonely or uh, walking in the dark, uh, I wish that I could show you. I wish that I could show you the uh, astonishing light of uh, your being.

Speaker B: Wow, that's awesome. Thank you very much for that. That was super lovely and I will just take that energy and I will, I will take it with me to my day because this is beautiful and yeah, it really gives you the power and soft and everything and yeah, it's such a beautiful. And I love your voice Barbara. So thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much for being here for everyone who is listening. Of course. I will share all your links and uh, some great tools and your website with listeners so they can ask questions, they can talk to you and they can connect with you. So thank you very much.

Speaker C: It was my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.