Ep 213, Disrupt Conflict Patterns That Aren’t Working: Exhale. Explore. Engage.

Welcome to Conflict Managed. I'm your host, Merry Brown. This week on Conflict Managed, we welcome Masha Rusanov. Masha is a conflict resolution expert, coach, and creator of the Exhale, Explore, Engage method.

Drawing on internal family systems, somatic psychology, and conflict theory, she helps people break free from legacy patterns to live with integrity her new book repattern how to transform your conflict defaults and reclaim your life introduces a practical three-step framework for interrupting automatic conflict reactions and responding with clarity instead of conditioning lending neuroscience psychology and real life stories repattern shows readers how to pause recognize learn patterns and choose responses aligned with their values now she lives in California with her husband and their blended constellation of children.

Good morning, Masha, and welcome to Conflict Managed. Thank you so much for having me, Merry. I'm really excited to talk about your new book that's coming out really soon. But before we get to that and what you're up to, I would like to hear about the first job you ever had as a young person.

Uh my very very very first job was translating american movies in an underground university movie theater so i was creating subtitles it was back in siberia where i grew up and i spent some time in the u.s before that and after coming back i was looking for opportunities while being in school and then university, and that was the very first job that I found. Well, I have done over 200 interviews, and nobody has named that as a first job. That is very interesting.

How did that come about, and how did you enjoy it? It was through friends who knew me and who knew that I had spent some time here and they were making fun of me for it at one point. And then one of them was like, oh, by the way, did you know there's this movie theater and they show American movies and they create the subtitle themselves? And I was like, oh, really?

Yeah, I did hear about it. And by the way, they're looking for someone to help out with those subtitles. I was like, OK, great. So the very first movie i translated was monsters bowl which was kind of a heavy one but um yeah i still remember that very well i can only imagine all right so where did you go after translating movies what did you go to university for and so tell us a little about your story yeah i studied biology i actually wanted to study psychology but the psychology department at my university was still very new and i didn't know whether or not something's gonna spin out of it and my family was very convincing and very academic and they're like well you know there's so many therapists and they're all jobless and what are you going to do with that career and you know but biology you can go to biotech and I was like oh biotech, that sounds so great so I studied biology back there and then transferred to UC Santa Cruz here in California where I finished this degree but before I went to Santa Cruz I spent some time taking classes catching up in the community college and while I was doing that I was also selling cutco knives my next random job you know.

Well, that sounds really interesting as well. So did you, when you graduated, did you end up doing biotech or what did you do when you graduated? Yes, I did. I actually got really lucky.

I went to this company. I don't know if it exists anymore, but we worked on HIV and malaria vaccines and we worked a lot with mice. And I spent a lot of time with mice. and I had a wonderful manager who actually really saw me like saw me and he asked me what are you doing here in the lab and I was like well you know I graduated I have this degree in molecular biology and so here I am he's like but you belong with people I'm like yeah and he he helped me see this truth that i didn't want to admit myself that yes i studied biology but it wasn't my passion or my thing or my talent or anything so he introduced me to his friend who was working in business development department who started giving me projects on the side to do market research to help out a little bit and that was my way way into marketing eventually what an absolute gift for someone to see that in you and then not only tell you but then kind of help you figure out something else yes i i felt really lucky i still when i see him on linkedin and his posts i still feel very tender and like oh i'm so grateful for you and for helping me make that transition and connection in my own mind with what really mattered for me yeah isn't that so interesting like why we choose a major or whatever profession we choose and then.

You know, and a lot of we have these outside influences like your parents, a wonderful impulse to want your children to be gainfully employed. Right. This isn't a very good. But that what we see in somebody else and maybe our own fears and our own background, what we think might be good for the other.

And and sometimes, of course, when you're young, you just don't know. Right. You you don't know. You think I like people.

But does that how does that translate into my job? Right. Like, why? How are these necessary connectors?

So you go into marketing and tell us more. Where do you go from there? Yeah, I went into the startup. I was employee number 13.

And the first female employee in that organization where I did market research, it was fun and exciting. And I loved it because it wasn't in a lab and there were no mice, just people. But that's also where I faced my first conflict in the workplace. It was with this VP-level guy who...

Didn't like something that i did or how i handled something in a meeting and then he just stood in front of me kind of towering over me and he just went on and on and on about how this is this is stupid this is bad this is not how you handle it and blah blah blah and kind of like reprimanded me, which put me right back into my daycare days where i saw daycare teachers doing that to little kids and the kids froze and so did i and that's how i responded in that situation so i just like I didn't know what to say or what to do.

I just waited for him to be done with his monologue. And then I ran to the bathroom and cried. Yeah. And back then I was like, well, I guess that's how things are.

Cause I didn't know anything. I thought maybe that's how it's supposed to be. I didn't know how to handle it. I didn't know how to escalate or not escalate and what to do.

But now looking back, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so not right. I would have handled it much differently. so this thing happens to you you freeze how did that the remainder of your relationship with that person what how did you go on with that person or what happened yeah it was a mix of avoiding and appealing because he was like number two most important person in the company after the ceo so i couldn't not interact with him at all but i tried to minimize the interactions, i talked to my manager who was a very young manager too he was fresh a grad and he didn't have that much experience with conflict either so he helped me the best he could but it didn't really resolve the conflict it just kept it shimmering in the background and not visible.

So yeah, I appeased, I avoided, I tried to do my best. You know, being the good girl that I was, try to be really nice to him and do really well, get my A's, you know, in customer meetings. Eventually, I went to a different company where I had a different manager and we had a great relationship. And I was like, oh, so people are not supposed to yell at me.

This is great. I can just imagine for many listeners, this resonating, certainly resonates with me, avoiding and appeasing. Right you know sort of how do I how do I deal with this thing I don't know how to deal with well we just not deal with it but if I have to I can fawn I can ingratiate I can I can appease so that I don't get the ire when we don't know how and for some people like they think well I am managing it like this is this is how I manage and that is fine with me I'm just going to keep the tiger at bay as much as i can and then go about because they many people don't know there are many other possible ways to to interact with when somebody misbehaves at work or somebody is you know or we have a conflict with somebody yeah and it really is determined by the patterns that we've inherited from childhood, for the most part, it's when we end up in this dangerous situation with an authority figure or with someone who is just big and strong, and we are a small child, we adopt the strategy that worked best in the moment, and it could be freezing, it could be running away, it could be hiding, it could be yelling for some people, like maybe their adult got intimidated by that.

So then. Usually that type of authority figure is someone who's there present in our lives for a long time. So the pattern gets reinforced and reinforced and reinforced until it becomes automatic. And then that's our default conflict behavior.

And how can we know that there is another way? Because we never knew another way. And that's basically what my book is all about, to help people see that, first of all, notice what it is that your default pattern looks like. And then from that place of noticing and pausing, inquiring and exploring into where it came from, which then opens room up for choice and for making a different choice in conflict, how we show up, how we respond.

I love that because if we don't notice it's there, then we're not aware how we're supposed to fix it. How do we know that it is the best for us if we're not aware of it? So your new book is called Repattern, How to Transform Your Conflict Defaults and Reclaim Your Life. So tell us about why you wrote this book and what people would expect to find in the book.

Yeah, it is about this framework for how to show up in conflict differently. And it teaches you three steps on how to interrupt this automatic pattern that we all have for how we show up in conflict what inspired me to write it i have had a fair share of conflict in my life here and there since that one manager and before that and one night i actually had this dream, or realization it was kind of like in a dream state but not necessarily fully asleep where I said, I know what's going on.

I know why I keep stepping on the same rake and keep repeating the same pattern. It's because I'm doing the same thing every time. And why am I expecting a different outcome if I'm doing the same thing? What if I did the opposite?

And this was such an aha moment, this idea of like, what if I just did the opposite? What if everybody did the opposite of what they're used to? you don't need a lot of room and awareness to notice what your pattern is and what the opposite could look like and that's when i decided to write this book and i got my master's in conflict resolution and i studied different coaching things modules and programs and that helped a lot too i studied mediation and now i mediate as well but i, yeah this framework it's meant to be simple and it's meant to be for everyone to be able to use in any moment whether it's at work or at home or anywhere else and it's yeah it's the three steps.

To exhale to exhale which creates the pause and the room for noticing and going further and then explore which is like thinking and and noticing what is it that i want to do right now oh i want to freeze or oh I want to hide or run and then engage which is what would be the opposite of that to stay or to move or to say something or to write something and you kind of try on those different options that you think of and see which one lands the best in the body I love that but I want to go back just a moment is it is it the case that you had this sort of epiphany and then you went on a journey to understand it is that sort of the order or was it in the middle you were in a in a master's program and it came to you it was before the master's program i think many things led to it, And it's raised both from work and from family and different things were happening in life in years leading up to that aha moment where I saw people who have had patterns repeating around them.

And I noticed some patterns with myself that were repeating. And I had time at work where I was very, very stressed. It was kind of a toxic culture in the workplace where I worked. And my body started responding and I took some extensive time off and I felt immediately better and I was like oh how interesting so I started noticing patterns like that and leaning into the wisdom of the body and and the gut and and then on top of that this idea landed of like oh what if I instead of staying and trying to appease and be quiet what if I actually try to leave or change something or change teams and yeah this idea came on the footsteps of that I mean so we all have experiences right I mean our life is filled with experiences and whether we learn from them or notice it's I think it's very interesting why some of us notice why some of us pause why we try something different or why we just keep on doing and the very little I've heard about your story from the beginning is it's filled with new things adventure trying different things i don't know how comfortable you are with change but you seem to do it right and so so moving from it it's a you know moving from one way of working and adventuring into to this new realm has this always just been a part of you a sort of curiosity to try something new to investigate.

Yes, I think so. It's curiosity and it's drive for uncovering something about myself. Since I was about 12, I really loved taking all kinds of personality tests. And the most fascinating thing in the world was my personality.

To me, you know. Of course. Yeah. And I see, I now have kids and I see how they are.

And I'm like, why aren't they taking personality tests every day all the day? Because they're my age when I started doing that. But yeah, I was always fascinated in how the brain works and how the mind works and what will make me even happier and what will bring me even more joy. And that's how I kind of go about my life.

Like, does this thing bring me joy? A little bit like Marie Kondo or will this thing bring me more joy and yeah the curiosity is always there and my parents always encouraged it and supported me in whatever it is I wanted to explore and I think that played a huge role so when we when people find themselves stuck they're stuck in a particular pattern so we'll talk like at work and how they respond to the circumstances around them or the people around them to get into this pattern or to to use this model that you have to disrupt the pattern of exhale explore and engage and How does somebody, how do we inspire people to want that, to take that path, to explore that there might be something different, maybe even something better, maybe more joy, maybe more satisfaction.

When people are busy, people are dealing with health issues, financial issues. I mean, people are just filled with things to try and to do and to hold it together, right? Hold this little mishmash of things together. So to have the space To think I want to try something new How do we get people to, Imagine that There is maybe something that's not working To try something that is I believe that When we are moving On the right path Or towards the right goals For us or towards the right I don't know what it is Your north star When we're on that path The universe helps us along.

And when we are not, it becomes more and more painful for us. So you mentioned health issues. I think that it's all very much connected. The more we are in alignment with ourselves and the more we are living our truth, like the really true way that we're supposed to be living, the less health issues we will have.

There's a book by Lisa Rankin. It's called Mind Over Medicine. And she talks about that that when we're in the wrong career or doing the wrong thing, then our bodies start sending us signals if we don't listen to our gut for you know long enough then the body starts breaking down and that's what happened to me at that one toxic workplace my body started responding so it's really hard to. Make anyone see anything or to get anyone to change however if someone is experiencing problems whether it's health or financial or family it's worth thinking why could that be happening where is the misalignment and that's probably the first step to notice the problems and think like oh do i really want to continue on this path where you know my i'm having insomnia and my glucose is too high and i'm having heart murmurs here and there and why is that oh wait could it be the 12-hour work shifts or the 10 p.

m meetings. Maybe there's a different way. And it's actually really scary to even think that way because we're so used to knowing how the work is supposed to be and to certainty. And anything that we don't know is scary.

So many people stay for a really long time in these situations that are not working for them. And you can see that clearly from the outside. But when you're in it, it's so hard. Absolutely as you were talking i was thinking about we talk about red flags like this is a red flag that is red flag and but.

Actually i think red flags if we if we actually see them as like markers like hey hey look at me pay attention to me so that i can do something else right so like red flags i have this thing about gossip at work that it's a bit of a soapbox for me that how toxic it is and how but it's also for the leader or anybody in that organization it's a good sign that something is wrong right something is broken other people need connection they need information they whatever it might be but it's something that if i pay attention to i can do something about and so maybe when we talk about red flags if we can then ask that question if we see it in others like well what are my red flags what what is my body trying to tell me what are my emotions trying to tell me what is my family trying to tell me right is there something out there because we can't fix a problem we don't see and there is something i think we crave regularity which is a good thing like we're trying to survive we want more than survival but we're always looking for what can be trusted what is the norm what am i supposed to be doing and when we have patterns that is that is a good thing that we can fall into this regularity but if it's not working for us in other words it's making us sick in our bodies or minds or both then paying attention but like how do we you know right drawing this attention to ourselves so that we can start something different.

Yeah there are red flags and they're also green flags along the way and i think our body is a great instrument that we underutilize because our body knows it's there's a tool that martha back developed it's called body compass and it's teaching you how to lean into the wisdom of the body and you basically scan the body in the neutral state and notice how it feels like what sensations are coming out and then think of a moment that was really triggering or really intense something just horribly wrong and see how your body responds to that and that's your body no and you notice the sensations and the feelings and the muscle tension and what the jaw feels like and how breathing is and the heartbeat and then you think of a very very pleasant memory where you.

Were in the flow where you were just happy top of the world and how amazing that was and then lean in to notice what's going on in the body and that's your body yes so then when something is going on if you notice the sensations or the tension or you know the signals that are more similar to the body no then clearly something is off it's not good for you and then if it's the opposite then you are on the right track so that's the green flag the body knows the red flag body yes is a green flag and you can learn that it's not a one-time thing unfortunately kind of have to repeat it and learn to notice those sensations but it could be so helpful and i use it now all the time about anything when they make decisions when my kids come with questions you know and like is this a good idea.

Yeah, yeah, okay, let's do it. Yeah, so much. I think in the world of conflict management or just, you know, trying to be healthy and we talk about lots of different things, we can so intellectualize, right? We can try to, we solve problems almost like we are machines, right?

And so it's a problem to be deconstructed externally in these little components and break it apart. And then we can see the widgets and how it goes together and we fixed it and we move forward. And it misses the mark of the fact that we are, we have these bodies, that we take up time and space and that our bodies that, like, what are we? Which is a really good question, right?

Are we, which we won't have to get too metaphysical, but you know, like what we are, if more than this, we are at least physical, right? If we're physical and mental or physical and spiritual or whatever, but we are minimally at least these bodies. And so if we're trying to think about having a good life, having a flourishing life, having good solid relationships, then that means that we have to pay attention to our bodies and other people's bodies and the wonderful information that we can we can find if we pay attention to pay attention to our bodies.

Yes. And that made me think of your previous question about how people might get excited or motivated to change. Because body is a signal. And if you kind of lean into that body relaxation state where you're very content and grounded.

And imagine that you have a magic wand. And you wave the wand and your life is exactly how it's supposed to be. If you realize that you're actually almost in that vision then great maybe you don't need to change much maybe you're already there and you're living in full alignment but i would say 95 of the people are not going to be in that vision already and that's a sign that there is a misalignment that something is off and if you had a magic wand you could have that life that you want And for most people, I would say that they are able to get to that place or some version of it that will be more aligned with their vision.

And the thing that's keeping them away from that are self-limiting beliefs and fears. Because, you know, we're conditioned and we're like, oh, no, no, I could never, you know, I could never, I could never live this job. I would not find another job or AI is going to take over my job or something like that. Those are all limiting beliefs because I see people finding jobs all the time and switching roles and leaving places that are not working for them or staying and making them work.

So, yeah, I think everybody can get to their vision of their life, of their dreams if they have enough courage to look there and to go there. And when I think about conflict and specifically conflict at work, I guess it's most conflict, is there's a misalignment, right? So I have a certain set of expectations. Somebody else has a certain set of expectations.

And somehow we're not meeting up. We're not communicating. And I think part of, let alone just like what my role is, what's going on in this organization, it's this question of what is work for, right? So what's even supposed to be happening?

What kind of community should I be expecting? What kind of relationships should I be building? What is going on at work? And I think, so if I have a particular vision of what I want my work relationships to be like, and you have a different vision of that, right?

Maybe you want it to be an extended family or your found family. And I have a very different, I want to come do my work, but I want all of my significant relations to be found elsewhere. So how do we how do you see, helping people have let's say I have a vision but what if it's not realistic given this time, this place, this company the people that I'm around how to, do you have any ideas about how to maybe align a vision with I mean some kind of external reality or reading the room or the company or the place yeah, Yeah, you know, it reminds me of how people approach negotiations and mediation.

They come with a set of positions that they have in mind, like I want X and Y and Z. The other person has their set of positions with, you know, their A, B, and Z. And what helps them come to any kind of an agreement or solution is to follow the Ys and the needs underneath those positions. What are the interests driving them right like why do we not want to go to the happy hour together every friday oh it's because this person has a family and this person doesn't so for them socializing at work is part of their lifestyle and ideal vision you know like we're saying for the other person it's spending time on friday night with their family and they're disconnecting there however when you're part of the same organization you by default already can find something that you share like the mission of the organization or the values of the organization and if you can find you can like level up and up and up like why is this important for me why is this why is that important why is the why important and you kind of keep going under with those why's maybe a few levels of wives until you find something that they share.

For example, they both care about getting paid while they're working there. And to get paid, they need to make sure their organization succeeds. How can the two of them together support the success of their organization so both of them could get paid? I mean, this is a very high level and simplified idea.

But basically, yeah, what is the point of alignment that they can both connect with? I love that because I think sometimes that especially if I've decided this person's my work nemesis or whatever narrative I have about that person, if we sometimes we just need to start at, I want to pay my mortgage, and so do you. Okay. Then in order to do that, just as you said, and the more that we do that, the more we can humanize the other person, the more I can get rid of my villain narrative about them.

I can, if I choose to see that actually partnering with them helps me get my base goal and your base goal, and then we can kind of start to have, okay, well, what is reasonable? How can we all get our needs met? Right? If, you know, if I can't make everybody go to happy hour or get rid of happy hour, why do we have happy hour, right?

And so asking these curious questions to get at, right, the needs. And I think it also, though, takes a kind of maturity, emotional maturity, to embrace live and let live. That not everybody has the same needs and desires. And that we're not all going to realize that at this time.

Now, maybe in the future, I'm going to want happy hour, and I didn't right now. And we are in flux, and we do change, and we do need different things at different times. But there's a big lip service I see to embracing diversity. We want people to come in all their glory.

We want this. But then people come with differences, and they're like, yeah, but not that. No, you need to be about what I'm about. And so I think one thing I love about conflict management and helping people to discover more about themselves is maybe letting go of needing everybody to be like me.

Oh, yes. This is such a human problem and assumption that everybody is like me. Everybody thinks like me. No, they're not.

Yes. Yeah, people are so different. And, you know, there's a lot of research on this, but diverse teams do perform better in the end. But as you were talking, it made me think of another way of getting over the, you know, the competition, which has worked for me both at work and in my family life, especially like when the kids are in conflict.

When the conflict itself becomes the enemy and the people who are in conflict become a team against this enemy like look we have a problem you and i right we are not agreeing on something or we cannot reach a resolution on this topic can we sit down together and think how can we conquer this problem of us not reaching resolution together you know yeah it's it's like just a tiny shift in the mindset but it becomes not you're bad and i'm good or i'm right and you're wrong it becomes i see that we have differences how can we make this work for both of us with our differences so that this unresolved thing gets resolved yeah and this is also i think what makes a difference between like a healthy workplace and a toxic workplace where people are against each other versus people unite against a common issue or something they need to solve together.

And that just brings people together so nicely. Oh, so well said, right? The problem is the problem. So sometimes people want to say, there's no problem here, right?

And so we get that toxic positivity, we put a smile on it, and then the problems go underground and then we do get character assassination and us versus them. But if we can... A lot of it is feeling comfortable or feeling comfortable with being uncomfortable, like allowing there to be problems, right? There can be problems, but what does that mean, right?

Well, I'm going to assign the meaning. Is the meaning that I'm bad and deficient or you're bad and deficient, or does it mean there's a problem? Okay, so let's look at the problem is actually the problem. So how do we depersonalize it so that we don't get character attacks?

I don't feel. But that does require a certain level of leadership, a certain level of emotional intelligence and maturity, a certain level of wanting to be a good colleague and a collegiality spirit of we are all actually all in this together. So if you find yourself in a toxic environment, How do you, what would you say to somebody to help the person, but the person help their colleagues to shift out of that? Yeah.

A couple things come to mind. One is run. No, I'm just kidding. Sometimes, sometimes.

Sometimes that's the only way. But usually it needs to come from leadership, not come from leadership as a directive, but leadership needs to be the example of what change might look like or psychological safety might look like. Because sometimes, and very often I see this, the words that the leadership says don't quite align with what they actually do. Like they're like, oh, yes, you know, we treat everybody fairly and there's never a wrong decision or a bad decision or a bad question.

And then somebody gets laid off. That's not psychological safety. Those types of cultures will likely not change for a while. But I've also seen times when leadership is actually showing those behaviors, as an example, and they will openly talk about their mistakes at an all-hands meeting with all of their employees.

And then they'll implement some kind of a process, like an escalation process for handling similar problems in the future. And they'll explain at the next all-hands, this is what we've learned. And we encourage everybody to speak up. And this is what the cost is of not speaking up or avoiding or smiling pleasantly.

And yeah, I think leadership just. It's like in a family, when the parents are in conflict, kids are not going to be happy and you cannot support the kids in isolation from their parents. Similarly, in the workplace, when the leaders are not embracing those values, no matter what the employees do, it's really hard to influence the culture of the whole organization. But, you know, I was brought in a few times to different organizations to do conflict resolution workshops.

But again that came from leadership that's not going to happen driven by employees it's got to be by example from the top right if we want a change throughout the organization if the leaders aren't on board and not just a name only is actually doing right they're actually doing it and then they are setting the example of what the expectation is and how we handle being humans which means we disappoint ourselves and others we make bad decisions and then we then we acknowledge it We learn from it and we move forward.

But if you are, let's suppose, you know, you're not going to, for whatever reason at this time, you cannot leave this organization. I see that your method of Excel, Explore, and Engage, we can still, one person can make a huge difference. I mean, for good or for ill, right? But one person starting with themself.

And once we change right we change the pattern then the pattern has been changed, yes yes that's also true for sure if one person is ready and willing to start looking inward, taking responsibility for what's going on with them and making different choices it's going to affect the organization first at a smaller team level and then potentially has a way of growing. Further if people start noticing the change that happens like let's say there's a pattern that is driving someone to make a choice to hide their i don't want to say problems but to hide whatever they don't think is optimal it's safer and then they notice that that's what they're doing and instead they try not hiding it next time but rather putting it on the team meeting agenda to discuss with the team and again framing it as like i am noticing this pattern that i am having they make it about themselves like can you guys help me figure out how to move forward from not doing that and then it starts affecting the team and everybody else potentially in the organization so but you know again hopefully the leadership buys in too and supports this change because if there are some unfortunate situations where the leadership is not going to be supportive but if they are then yes there is totally potential for for making it better for them And also for this person who is alone in this, there's the boundaries that they need to learn for themselves.

Like, how much is too much? What's too toxic for me? What's okay? What's safe?

Where am I and where do I start betraying myself for the sake of the paycheck? And just kind of digging into that and knowing it for yourself will help decide the next move, whether staying and continuing to work through it is a better option versus not. Because in some situations, you just got to change something. Yeah, absolutely.

I like the way that you just sort of talked about boundary setting. A lot of times people think about boundaries are these hard, immalleable, like a fence. And maybe they are, but how do we get them, right? How do we decide what those boundaries are?

And a lot of times people say, well, you should know what they are. But what I heard is, again, about the sort of exploring, like, well, what is too much and what is not enough? and sometimes we find that through trial and error, right? Boundaries are for us to make and for us to maintain.

Oh, and you just have a beautiful cat. I love when animals join the podcast. If you're watching this, you see this really beautiful cat. Yeah, he would scream unless they pick him up.

Now he's going to see his beautiful face. But this idea, that boundaries, this space to explore. Okay, well, I'm feeling underwater. I'm feeling this is too much.

Okay, well, what is too much? What does it look like for me? But again, giving yourself that self, that space to explore. And I want to come to what you said before about this engaging, this idea of doing the opposite, it which i absolutely i love this idea so you have this idea in the western tradition of the seven deadly sins right so these these these whether or not you believe in sin it's this idea that these particular behaviors lead you away from human flourishing from the good life so like if you let's suppose like lust is one of them so if you have this vice um and advice is something is oh not an addiction but something like you've given yourself over to how do you get out of it Well, in the Middle Ages, they came up with, instead of focusing on it, you focus on the opposite.

So if I struggle with lust, I focus on abstinence. So my focus is not on this thing that I want, this thing that's controlling me. You don't even pay attention to it. You pay attention to the good that you want.

so if i struggle with with envy instead of like i don't want to be envious anymore i focus on i want the good for others and so now i'm somebody right and so instead of being impatient i focus on being patient right these sorts of focuses and it is what resonates with me what you're saying doing the opposite well instead of hiding what if i don't hide anymore what would happen and i can see how that would be scary but actually also really freeing up of possibilities This idea of allowing yourself to engage and allowing yourself to explore, explore, to find out then what is the activity that you're going to do.

Right. Yeah. And it's also there's a part of psychological opposite psychology. I think it's a thought work related to and.

There's also someone who's called byron katie who has the work a method for flipping your thoughts essentially to the opposite of what they are but i think it's a very powerful idea to, really think of what this opposite could be and could look like and yeah it's it has so much potential because it really puts you out of the pattern that you're used to right yeah and yeah i love what you're talking about with the deadly sins there's a reason why that i had this idea maybe it's not a brand new idea maybe it's been around since medieval ages but applying it now seems like something for for everybody to try absolutely you know those movies there are there movies like the yesterday and i think there's another one similar to that where the person just says yes to everything it reminds me of that because it does open up so much possibility, because we're just used to going down the same track yeah and when we notice that there are other tracks it's just so liberating.

I love it because it's, to me, at least it strikes me as jarring. And if you want to get out of a pattern, right, if you are entrenched in a certain kind of behavior, how do I get out of it? And so if I think about, okay, well, how do I get out of it? What if I went the other way or jumped to the side?

What would that look like? And allow yourself to imagine what that would feel like in your body, what the consequences might be for yourself or others, your job, and really start to think about other ways. But a lot of times we tend to think, at least myself, other ways are very similar to what I'm already doing, right? So this is my normal.

This is what I'm comfortable with. And if I want something different, it's going to have to be along the same path. These are the options I'm choosing from. But I don't really allow myself to think about all the possibilities.

And very rarely allow myself to think about the opposite, right? So if I am quiet, because that's my default, what if I spoke up? Or what if I get aggressive, usually, and I decide, well, what if I didn't do that? How might I feel?

What might happen? How might my relationship change? Or I just think that's really helpful when we think about it. Because you began with saying that your book is really practical, right?

These easy, easy steps. The heart is always in doing it. But I think it's really helpful to have people imagine, okay, well, what to imagine, right? And to open up our imagining and it's i don't know i just think it's really i'm going to be thinking more about this about what what that really would mean for my own patterns that i'm unhappy with first of all what are they but then if i did the opposite what would that even mean and how might i realize something along that.

Yeah. There's a cleaner car going. I saw that. We'll cut this out.

I do the same. Like a siren will go down, but usually I don't hear it. I don't hear it. You're good.

Okay, good. Yeah. And the reason to start with the opposite is exactly what you were talking about. Because the options we do think of are also part of a pattern.

And we think that they're different, but really they're not that different. But if you immediately go to the opposite, it seems so bizarre oftentimes. But at least when you start there, the options you come up with are going to be somewhere in the range between that and where you started, rather just being all around the starting spot. Yeah.

Oh, I love that. Because the space that we're both in with conflict management is helping people come up with options, right? Helping them really think about. And we know that we have limiting beliefs and we know that when we think about Especially if we are entrenched in a position, it's like, no, no, they need to be fired.

That's it. That's the only thing that will make me happy. That's the only way that justice will be served. And then we limit our possibility of what it is that we want realized, right?

And so, but giving people more options, right? How do we do that? Really opening people up to considering different possibilities. I just think that's a really strong, easy, easy in the sense of something that can be done, right?

And to start looking and mapping at, well, these are all the possibilities, and then I can decide, well, why something may not work for me at this time, instead of just not even looking at. Right. Yeah. And we often can be surprised by the response that we have in the body when we think of these different options, even the opposite.

Not always the opposite, but sometimes you imagine, you know, if you, let's say you're quiet and you imagine... Writing a message or saying something in the moment, your body might feel a rush of energy. And you might be surprised by it and be like, yes, that's what I want to do. It feels so nice.

But if you didn't think of the opposite, you would never know that that's a possibility for you. Yeah. Oh, I just love that so much thinking about more possibilities. How do we increase?

because, you know, if we think that we act, I'm basically an existentialist. I believe that humans are essentially free, that we have these options. But I do think that we trick ourself into thinking that we're acting freely. We've looked at all of the possibilities and this is what we're going with.

But really, we typically very much narrow down what we think is possible. And that's one reason to go to a comfort coach or a specialist, an ombuds, a mediator, somebody to help open up a therapist, to help to look at well what are live possibilities right things that will you know are commensurate with my values they're going to help me get to what it is that i want human happiness and flourishing for myself and others and. And the more options we give ourself, the more we're going to be able to think through what we want to do and then maybe even be happier with what we have decided to do because it is from an array and we've said no or yes to a variety of different things.

Yeah, yeah. And as long as we can create just enough space to open the door just a crack, then those possibilities become possible. Because when we're on autopilot and we just go down the same track every day, repeat the same patterns without noticing it or realizing it, then there's less choice. Yeah.

And the pattern, I mean, we have patterns with people, right? Of course. But when we think about what they need to change, right? Well, a wonderful way to get somebody else to change is for you to change, right?

Right. It's probably the only way. Right? Exactly.

I'm going, that's right. How does lightning's going to come down? Probably not. We don't need to wait for that or the prince to come and save the situation.

But it is really interesting. We think about what narrative we've given ourselves for something to change, and it's usually very external, which is sad because we actually do have the power. We have the power for change. We have the power for our circumstances to change, and that's within us.

Not to minimize, as you and I both know, people find themselves in horrible circumstances, of course, and there's real suffering and real bad players in the world. And that notwithstanding, it is still the case that we get to decide how to think about our circumstances, what to do next, how to put together an exit plan of whatever we need to be exiting and why we need to be exiting to something. So instead of I'm going away from this, I'm going towards. And those are different kinds of decisions we're making.

Mm-hmm yes i recently wrote a post about this that when we are waiting for someone else to do something in order to be happy we have given our power away to them and when we notice that and say like oh wait a minute i'm actually okay right now with myself regardless of what they do or don't do we take the agency back and it can be so empowering like oh they need to be punished or fired or yelled at or you know get a bad review or i'm gonna write a bad review for them and then i'll be happy and then they're gonna be punished really you're gonna be yourself and you're gonna be okay and happy regardless of what happens to somebody else or doesn't happen to them And this idea is also freeing in a sense, because when we are hooked to that, it literally is a hook, like they're holding us by something, by a chain that says that, you know, they need to, like, they have control over how we feel by changing or not changing.

Mm-hmm. And it's just so nice to remember that actually, no, they don't. I can choose how I show up in this relationship or how I don't show up or what I say or what I do. And I have all the agency in the world over my happiness.

Absolutely. There's something to, which is really good, the human condition that we want justice. We want people to get their just desserts, the good and the bad. And in this life, that doesn't always happen.

And what we think people deserve, the good or the ill, especially if it's something we think some deserve something bad because of bad behavior illegal behavior like really bad things that they have done sometimes we think if they get this punishment then i will feel better but it doesn't it doesn't really touch the harm that has happened to us or maybe i have been sexually harassed or i have been mercilessly bullied or worse right, If I'm waiting for them to get this punishment that I think they deserve, first of all, they may not get it.

And they may get it, and then what? Again, it's this outside of - I think it's a wonderful impulse to want justice to be served. That is good. But if we put all our eggs in this basket of - .

It being the universe delivering it so that I see it, right? Right. Karma may be the case, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to witness it, right? Yeah, I was going to say, you know, we think we know what justice might look like, but in fact, we don't.

Like, they already may be suffering consequences that we don't see. It doesn't mean that they, you know, came out of that horrible situation, punishment free. Maybe they are tormented inside. Maybe they have financial problems that we don't know of or health problems.

We just don't know how situations affect different people. And we think that we do and we attach to this outcome that we envision for them that we think is the right way. And when I bring this to therapy, my therapist says, you're playing God again today, aren't you? I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah.

Oh, that's right. Absolutely. It's that difficult thing of being a human in the world where we have to hold the and it's like i want justice served and right and i need to find how to move forward whether or not it served the way that i think it should be served in the timetable that i have because usually the world is not i mean the world is not under our control we are not god we don't get to dictate which is probably a good thing right that because we don't know everything and we don't we don't if we could one day at our workplaces or any place actually have insight into the way people have suffered, the suffering they're going through right now, and the way they are showing up, we might feel very differently.

I'm sure we would all feel very differently about how well actually some of these people that we've written off are actually doing given what they are suffering or have suffered or given their health situation, their family situation, whatever it might be. And so that doesn't mean that we don't hold people accountable, right? Again, we so much want this binary of it's this or it's that, where it turns out it's just not that easy. We have to hold a lot of things in tension in order to find the breath, right?

In order to embrace reality and move forward and to find goodness and beauty and health in our workplaces and in our lives. Yeah and in a situation like that when someone really is holding on to an idea of what needs to happen with someone else i think this framework of mine may be very helpful like exploring why that is so important and what's the need because usually when we want that there's an, unmet need inside of us and once we see that need we can figure out a way to. Close it ourselves without having to wait for that other person to change to be punished you know to to do whatever like why is it so important that they are xyz oh it's because i feel insecure or i want to feel more safe or i want to feel like i'm taken care of right right or i just want the world to be different than it is right i want the world to be this black and white the good are rewarded the evil are no doubted and punished and if if you want to if you want to live in a if you want the world to be a certain way desperately and it isn't that way then you're you're not going to be able to move forward and so i think those exploratory of the why it's so because my why of why i want this person's behavior to change might be wildly different than yours right that neither one of us are going to be able to move forward unless we ask the question and start really exploring why is this important to me that's such a great great question that nobody can answer but myself and if i can't answer it that's such wonderful information Why can't I answer why this is so important?

More questions. Yes. Well, I'm going to end on my last question for you. I feel like I could talk to you all day.

But my last question is, as you look into the future of work, what do you think needs to happen so that not only are all people treated with dignity and respect, that's just base, but that people are encouraged to thrive and flourish? I want to come back to something that we were talking about earlier. You mentioned it specifically that people treat each other as if we're all the same. And once everyone starts to recognize that, in fact, we're all different.

And I know everybody says it. Yes, I know everybody's different, but they don't actually embody this. But once more people start embodying this, that my experience is different from yours and theirs and everybody else's, then it's going to open up more tolerance and patience and desire to collaborate and curiosity, you know, like, how are we different? I want to know more about you.

I want to see how we're different and how these differences are playing together in this specific situation that we're in. I think that's going to be so powerful for the world to change for the better. I think that's a wonderful answer. I completely agree.

Well, thank you so much for being on Conflict Managed. It was such a great conversation. Thank you so much for having me. Take care.

Masha, thank you so much for being on Conflict Managed. I love the work that you're doing. I'm very excited for your new book, Repatterned, How to Transform Your Conflict Defaults and Reclaim Your Life. Whether or not you think you have a conflict management style you do we all do we have a way that we deal with conflict and it is a pattern so i think this is a brilliant way of thinking about, ourselves and doing something different conflict managed is produced by third-party workplace conflict restoration services and hosted by me, Merry Brown.

you can find us online at 3pconflict restoration.com come back we have new episodes every tuesday and if you would like and subscribe wherever you are listening or watching this podcast. It's much appreciated. My latest book, How to Be Un...

That's not my latest book is Winning the Generation Wars at Work, Making Your Age an Asset. It's available on Amazon, along with How to Be Unprofessional at Work, which is also on Amazon as well. Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot. And remember, conflict is normal and expected.

Let's deal with it. Until next time, take care.