Episode 169: Rethinking Resistance with the Neurological Nomad

Speaker A: Sam,

Speaker B: Welcome to Coffee and Change. I'm, um, Bill Kerst. As a business professional, a US Veteran, a lifelong learner, and an active listener, I help others navigate, understand, and adapt to our ever changing workplace and world. As a third culture kid, I call many places home. Presently, Seattle is where I explore my creativity through the power of words and images. In this podcast, we journey with our guests, gaining knowledge and inspiration from their stories. So one of the many great things about having a podcast and connecting with people all over the world is on occasion, you have a conversation that starts in one place and ends in a completely different place, different than you ever expected. This is one of those conversations. Travis Hailer is a Senior Director of Global Strategy and Transformation at Salesforce and the founder of the Neurological Nomad. Travis comes in to Fortune 500 companies, helps them navigate change, and he does it in a unique way. He does it by revealing a startling truth, that resistance is not rebellion. His new book, rethink Resistance, Embracing Neuroscience to Lead Transformational change, comes out June 23, published by Fast Company Press. I definitely encourage you to pick up a copy. I can't wait to talk to Travis again. Until then, enjoy the conversation.

Speaker A: Foreign

Speaker B: hey, Travis. Good afternoon. Welcome to the Coffee and Change podcast. It is great to be connected and to chat with you today. How are you this morning? And let's start by telling the listeners, I guess, where you're dialing in from. Do we even say that anymore?

Speaker A: Hi, Bill. Uh, thanks for having me on the podcast. Uh, yeah. So coming to you live from, uh, from South Dakota, which is probably not a place where you have a lot of folks dialing in these days.

Speaker B: Definitely not. And it's one of The, I think, 10 states that I have left on my, what I call 50 before 50. So my goal is to hit all 50 states before I turn 50. So I've. I've got just over two years to go, and South Dakota is, is on that list. We'll probably do the South Dakota, North Dakota in the same trip. But, um, I appreciate you, uh, joining the show. And we're going to talk a little bit about, um, a topic that you've thought a lot about that, um, has obviously change, behavior change. But the part that I was really excited about in learning a little bit about the book you wrote, which we'll talk about, was the neuroscience of it all. Um, and specifically, what's really fascinating is as someone who's been doing leading teams and people through change for, um, I guess closer to the side of 25 years, people often ask me like, if you could go back and study again, what would you study? And the two. The two topics that come to the top of the list every time are neuroscience and psychology. Um, and so, yeah, I'm excited to chat with you because I kind of geek out on this stuff, um, as an extracurricular, if you will, and I imagine you're pretty similar.

Speaker A: Oh, no, listeners, we're about to get real, real nerdy and geeky here for a while, so I hope you're with us.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I'm here for it, and I know they will be, too. Um, so tell us a little bit about the book, for one. Um, and then what kind of inspired you to write the book? Because I always. I personally believe that everybody has a book in them, if not multiple. And this is certainly a great topic to have sort of taken on, but it's also. It's a big one to get your arms around. So what made you say, like, I want to write this book about this topic?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's interesting because, uh, similar. Similar to your belief. I. I think everyone has a book, and I think the, um, sometimes multiple, but I think books come in different ways. So, you know, there's. There's folks that want to write the book to launch something, and then there's folks that the book kind of comes after. And so for me, the book kind of came after. So, you know, my. My background is psych, you know, human behavior, neuroscience, and then business. And I, um, You know, as a. As a young person, I think we. We look at things in very black and white, you know, categories. And so I said, oh, I don't know what I want to do with the psych and the neuroscience, so I'll do business. And what I kept finding as I went throughout my career was this intersection just kept coming back of, like, this was really successful. And why was it successful? Well, it's because I understood human behavior and the neuroscience, what was happening with people. And I was able to articulate that to leaders. And so I went with this theory in 2018 that what was successful and change was really based in this idea that if you could just understand as a leader what was actually happening in your people when you go through change, that you could be a better leader. And not just a better leader in terms of you can get people to do stuff like that's. That's also called manipulation. Right. Like, you could do that too. But, um, it's really about being a better leader in terms of your people feel the care that you have for them. That. And that's what was. So much has been missing in the change field, I think, for a long time, is that that feeling of care. And so I went back and I researched and studied this. And, um, and what I found was that there were these six neurological barriers to change that showed up every time. Um, and it was something that I went and I spoke at a small gathering. It was like 30 people. And, uh, we talked about this. And I think I walked out of the room. It was in Toronto in the middle of the winter, where no one ever wanted to go, but these great 30 people showed up. And, um, where it went to was afterwards. I had so many conversations with those 30 people about, this is different, this is new. I think this is a differentiator. And that snowballed into, you know, 150 events and 25,000 people and 100 different companies that I've worked with. And, um, so the book kind of came after as a. This is making a difference. And I really want something that people can leave a talk with, or they can. They can hear this and say, I want to know more, I want to learn more. I want a playbook. I want something that I can reference when I hit that moment where I'm like, I know the barrier. What's going to help me overcome it? And so the book came very naturally for me as. As that I, uh, would say scalable factor in terms of helping more leaders feel this way, because every time I worked with a leader and they started to really dig into the neuroscience, you could just see their eyes lit up. They're like, this is the thing that's going to help me be better. And I feel that very passionately. Um, and it's how I've felt when I'm leading my own team, um, that has helped me help them immensely.

Speaker B: You know, the reason I love this sort of origin story is, um, it's almost a mirror of how this podcast started. I was speaking on stages to large groups of people, and I would talk about the changes that were coming, um, the changes that were kind, uh, of exciting. And inevitably what would happen is, after the session was over, you're off the side of the stage, or you're in the back of the hall or whatever, and there's people that are waiting to meet you and do this sort of cordial thank you, But a number of them would sort of, like, tuck off to the side and whisper to me. And I was like, you know, you lean in and you're like, oh, you're going to whisper something to Me. And they would say, every time, Travis, they'd say, I'm not okay with this. Like, I can't say it in front of my peers. I can't say it in front of my boss, but I'm not okay with this. And to your point around care, I would change sort of my, um, expression, and I would just lean into them and say, do you want to grab a cup of coffee after this? Like, after this is all over, and after everybody disbands? And they'd say, yeah, I really would. And that's how this began, was I would go and have these single cups of coffee with people who were courageous enough, vulnerable enough to say to me, just with an earshot, I'm not okay with this change that's coming up or it's about to happen. And we would go, we'd sit down, we'd have a cup of coffee, and. And what would spill out of them oftentimes was less about the change and more about their story and where they came from or what had happened to them or what they were dealing with. Most of the times it was behavioral or neurological. They didn't even realize. Right. They just hadn't had an opportunity to share it and the grace and the space to offer someone to do that on the other side of it. Oftentimes, I was just. I was just listening, and, you know, the hour would finish or whatnot, and I would ask them, well, how are you feeling now? And they'd say, I feel great. And they did all the work, right? That's the beauty of it, is they did all the work. And so that's where this podcast began over almost 10 years ago, was I took that. Like you took. And you took. And you put it into a book. I took that and I said, if these conversations singularly are this powerful, imagine what they could be collectively. Imagine if I could echo them or scale them or allow other people to hear them. Um, not just one to one. And so here we are, um, ten years later. So I love the fact that, like, your origin story in this podcast, origin story is so similar.

Speaker A: That's so incredible, and it's so true. I mean, part of. Part of leading change and part of being a leader of change is, you know, a good portion therapist. Right. And understanding and letting people tell you what they need. And, you know, for this audience, um, of your podcast, it's probably a little bit of a different vibe because. And I say this whenever I speak to change folks, because m. They're, um. I don't need to convince you as to why change is important. Like, I do that every day in my day job. Uh, but it's lovely to not have to do that with a group of people. But um, you know, I wrote the book for leaders who aren't necessarily change leaders. And when I talk to change minded folks, I'm like, you know, I'm not going to convince you that change is important and managing that change is important. But what neuroscience gives you that I think is so powerful is language. And that's what I heard you say, and that language to say, okay, we get in these rooms and we have these, these big people, big personalities, big titles across from us. And oftentimes change doesn't always hold a large title in an organization. And so what ends up happening is we enter that room and we sit at that table and the language that we use immediately engages a gut conversation where I, you know, we say things like, ooh, that sounds like an aggressive timeline. Or do you think that's enough time for training or for them to really get it? That's a gut conversation. That's a you versus me. And when we're at that table, that executive's gut is way more powerful than yours because they've done this. They, they've gotten to the level that they are by trusting their own gut. Neuroscience gives you actual scientific, data driven information to talk about. So it changes from oh, that's aggressive to you know, here's what we're up against. These sellers that have been selling in this way for 10 years and have built a competence here, were stripping them of that competence. And in order to make them comfortable and ready to adopt, we really have to build that back up. And here's how long that's going to take based on what we're asking them to do. Totally different conversation, right? Mhm. It's really hard for someone to disprove that without putting in the due diligence and the work to say, I think you're wrong and here's why. Mhm. That's, that's a lot more difficult to do than a, uh, I, uh, think you're wrong because my gut tells me you're wrong.

Speaker B: Yeah. You know, the, the part that you're hitting on, which I think is so important. And you and I see just firsthand where we happen to be, um, is livelihood.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Like change comes and people's livelihood is immediately, I don't say upended always, but it's sort of reframed and you have to say to yourself, who am I, who have I been? Who Am I going to be on the other side of this? And all of those conversations, I think for every human, they echo inside your head. And the only way to really, like you said, the only way to help with it is to put language to it. And that's what neuroscience does. That's what psychology does. That's what curiosity. Um, and I think is, is kind of another language. Right. Uh, that we can lean in with that. And that's one of the things I love about you go straight for the topic of resistance and you're not afraid of it. And so many people, for so long, depending on the culture you're in, depending on the industry that you're in, um, they say things like, we have to minimize resistance or we have to reduce resistance. You're saying something very different, which is the resistance is like, where the gold is at times. Is that accurate?

Speaker A: A hundred percent. Um, you know, I, I, I talk to a lot of leaders, and I get a lot of questions about, like, oh, how do I, how do I overcome that resistant person? How do I get that person to not be resistant? How do I. And it, like you said, it's something to be overcame, conquered, et cetera. And for me, I tell this to every leader I talk to. I'm like, resistor. Like, resistance is where I go. That's the person I want to know. And you know, why I want to know them. And, and, and I think this reframes it a little bit. And this is kind of what I've learned over my career is in order for someone to actively resist, it requires a few things. One, it requires incredible courage. And I think a lot of people are taken aback when I say incredible courage to resist. But it really does. It requires someone to stand, possibly alone, and say, I don't agree. I'm not here for this. I don't understand it. I don't think it makes sense. That's courageous, that's vulnerable, that's, I mean, that's incredible. If someone feels that passionately about it, I want to know why, right? Like, uh, they have a story in them that I'm ready to hear. And then the other piece of it is that through that resistance, you learn something new about the change that you probably had never heard before. And without that conversation, you couldn't have unlocked that perspective to help you build a better plan, build a better, uh, support system for that change. So resistance is where I love to be. I, I liken it to the check engine light. It's not necessarily a problem in itself, but it does Tell you there is one. Right. Um, so that's for me, I love resistance. I think everyone should. Resistance is a gift. In many cases, the people you have to be really concerned about are the ones that are silently, uh, sabotaging. Right.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: The ones that are saying, no, I'm not doing this, but I'm not going to say I'm not doing it.

Speaker B: Mhm. You know, I, I really appreciate the check engine light, uh, metaphor as well for a couple reasons. One is I think everybody can relate to when that engine light comes on. Like the, this is where I'm going to nerd out a little bit. But like the physiological, um, response that happens in your body when you're driving and the check engine light comes on. Right. Everybody kind of can relate to that sense of like you, you sort of grip a little bit, you tense up, you're like, oh no, not now. What does this mean? Um, and then you kind of like, you, you try and discern. Right. Which uh, I think is. Discernment is such an important and overlooked and understated, um, gift that we, we conscious beings have. You're trying to discern the severity of it. Do I need to like, stop? Do I need to go somewhere? Do I need to change my day? And then what ends up happening is we drive differently, we behave differently, we make different decisions. Um, and many cases we might procrastinate, but in some cases we say, hey, you know what, that's just a reminder. It's an indicator that I need to make a different, um, choice or make a different, you know, plan. And, and to me, the part that's been really fascinating and I'd love your thoughts on this, having studied the neuroscience and physiology of this too, is, um, one thing I wish that leaders had the ability to tap into. Obviously, let's set aside the privacy rights for a minute. I have an aura ring. Many of us have Apple watches. Right. Um, but imagine if you as a leader had the ability to instantly look at a dashboard which showed the vitals, right. Then the physiological vitals of your teams, maybe your audience, maybe the group of people you're presenting to in real time. Once you introduce a change, right. You, the equivalent of the check engine light comes on. I'm imagining that a lot of those vitals, you'd see an increased heart rate, you'd see blood pressure going up, you'd see oxygen levels going down. Right. People are holding their breath. Um, and again, it, it wouldn't necessarily change your messaging. You would, you might still flow on, uh, on the what you're delivering same thing as you might still drive the car to the destination you're going to. But you would think about it differently. You'd have a little more compassion for those group of people and you'd understand why maybe the next best thing not to do is ask them for a critical decision right after they get out of that. Because as you talk about what happens with the brain, what happens with the amygdala, what happens with the prefrontal cortex, these are all things that most people don't think about, but if they could, if they had the awareness of it, they would have more compassion. Um, and I'm just curious your thoughts about that. I mean, you've been on those stages. You and I have both been on stages. We've watched people like Brene Brown and others who've talked about this, Simon Sinek and Adam Grant. Um, but I still find it fascinating that, like, they have all this technology that tells us how we sleep, how we eat, how we breathe. And I'm like, man, if we could just give that to leaders for a second, it would change their perspective.

Speaker A: It would. Um, here's the thing, though. You know, I think there's, there's a level of opening your eyes as a leader that you don't necessarily need the vitals. So. And I, I do cover this in the book a bit. It's, it's, it's light. But I think for, for, uh, for our purposes, it, it tracks. But really there are body movements that happen in people unintentionally when they feel a certain way. Right. You know, you can, you can watch someone distance themselves, lean back from you. Think of when they go like this and they. Yeah, so they don't like what you're saying. You can see someone lean into you when they do. You can see someone cross their arms. You can. You can also watch someone's shoulders hunch when you can tell something has, like, traumatically triggered them. There's some form of trauma there that, that, whether it was a bad experience or something else completely that has really kind of hit them, there's a lot of signs of that. And what's interesting is that when I, when I talk about this, and this isn't necessarily in the book, but it's inherent in there through the, through the barriers that we talk about and the ways to over. Not overcome them, but to engage with them as a leader. But, um, when I do talk to large groups and I do workshops, I call it becoming a fortune teller of resistance for our leaders. And I use Them as tarot cards. And it seems kind of silly, but the reality is that when you can read some of the signals, it is no different than being able to predict the future. And. And that all came from, um, I worked at an organization, uh, on a program. This was earlier in my career, and this is when I was starting to be like, God, the neuroscience seems to be kind of the differentiator because I kept getting put in rooms with executives, and I was like, I am a know nothing, mid-20s. Like, why am I sitting here with executives telling them anything? I should be not talking ever. Uh, and probably not even in this room. But what I was able to do was articulate the experience that people were going to have, and I could predict it. And it was all based in my knowledge of the psychology, the neuroscience. And, um, I had an executive, after we'd gone through a couple iterations of a change rollout, um, who came up to me and he was like, God, you're like a fortune teller. It's like you called it every single time. I was like, well, it's not fair, really. It's kind of similar to fortune telling. Sorry, if anyone's a fortune teller. It's kind of similar. I have, like, the notes, like, written underneath the table about, like, everything about you. Right. Like, I just know what to look for. I know what is going to show up. And so I can tell you with pretty good accuracy what those folks will go through. Um, but that kind of stuck with me as, like, this resistance fortune teller idea. Um, and there's actually a great line which I have to credit my, uh, my editors and my publisher on this. On the back of the description of the book, the very last line is, once you see it, you'll never go back. And that's what I hear time and time again from leaders. Once they understand it, they're like, the eyes have opened. Like, I see what's happening in my team, and I see a lot of them reflect in those moments, especially when we're doing workshops where they'll be like, gosh, that explains so much about Bill. I had this person on my team and blah, blah, blah, and I thought it was this. And oh, my gosh, they were just really struggling with this barrier, and I had no clue. And now I do. And now I feel a lot of them are like, now I feel like a complete jerk because I totally was pushing them way too hard trying to get them on board, uh, when really what they needed was X, Y and Z. Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, um, little bit of, uh, confession Here. But I love that you use the tarot card example, because a lot of people don't know this, and I'm being vulnerable. I read tarot cards. Uh, a lot of people don't realize that, but I find it. Somebody came to me years ago and said, have you ever done a tarot reading? And I said, no. And, you know, I'm ex military, and so I tend to be a little bit more pragmatic and skeptical of things. Um, and I was like, no. And she was really, really good at what she did. And she read me from across the room, right? She did exactly what you're talking about, right? And it was a large party. And, um, she just walked up to me and said, have you ever had this done? And I said, no. And of course, what did my body do? Right? My body shut down, my shoulders closed up. I said I was honest with her. I said I was raised Catholic and anything of the occult was. Was of the occult, right? And she's like, yeah, I still feel like I need to. I want to do this for you. And I was like, okay, right? So I was like, let me open to it. And I sat down and she read what's called a Celtic cross spread, which I think is like 12 to 14 cards. And she had me at Celtic. Like, she didn't know my background at all, but she had me at Celtic because I was like, whoa, now you're speaking my language. Because I come from a big Celtic clan, if you will. And, um, I just went with it. And again, to me, the tarot cards are kind of interesting because it's not about future predicting, it's not about fortune predicting. It's more about, like, you described, which is whatever the card visually depicts. What ends up happening is the person responds to what they're seeing in a certain way. So all of the quote, unquote, predicting. To me, it's not about predicting. It's just what arises in you, right. Physiologically, psychologically. And, um, that's what happened to me. And I was like, well, this is kind of amazing. And it wasn't about like, hey, you can read my mind, or, hey, you can see the future. What it was about was, um, alignment and understanding, like, what was coming up in me and what was depicted on those cards visually. And as a result, it allowed me to have different discussions. And it was from that place. And this was probably more than 10. I mean, this had to be maybe 12 years ago. I was like, okay, now I'm. Now I'm intrigued. And so, you know, I'VE never. I mean, I've trained a little bit, but it's not really like, in a training thing. And every once in a while, I have a friend who will say, hey, can you just. Can we pull a card or two or three? I'm like, sure. And I do exactly what you described, Travis, which is. I just sit. I sit with them and I sort of read. What is the body language of them? And then I. I just ask, um, very opening questions. And they oftentimes kind of do their own reading, which is a beautiful thing. It's exactly what you're talking about. When leaders see it, when people see it, you can't unsee it. Um, and it's kind of this really interesting, um, thread that I never thought would happen. And then one last little item I'll share with you, which you'll appreciate. During COVID when we were all working from home, um, you know, we were trying to connect and do things virtually. And I took a risk at one point, the end of a meeting with a whole bunch of consultants at the time, and I said, hey, does anybody want, uh, me to pull a card for them? And they were like, what are you talking about? And I sort of explained to them I sometimes do this. And they were all hesitant, right, because they were like, who goes first? Who's going to say yes? And somebody said yes. And I went ahead and did that, and we ended the meeting. It was really quite powerful. And then I had, like, 17 emails from people being like, can you pull one for me? Can you pull it for me? Can you pull one for me? Um, but all of it goes exactly to what your point is, is it feels a little unfair. I think that's a word you used, which is like, you and I have studied the human dynamic for a long time. What drives me is the way people move through the world, the way they struggle, the way they hope, the way they dream. And I've been in this, like, endless laboratory of that, working where I've worked with the people I worked. And so if I can take some of those skills and, um, bequeath them to somebody else so that they can see some of that too, like, it's my obligation to do that. And laughingly Tarot was one of them. There's many other mechanisms, including this podcast, but I really just wanted to name that, because that's something I don't think I've ever said on this podcast, that I do that. So there's a vulnerable moment.

Speaker A: Bill, go get the cards.

Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.

Speaker A: Should I let's do it. I love it.

Speaker B: I could run up, I could run upstairs and get one.

Speaker A: Uh, I'm here for it. I'm really here for it.

Speaker B: All right, let me go do that. I'm going to put the headphones down. I'm going to go grab the cards and I will be right back.

Speaker A: Amazing, y'. All, this is really happening real time.

Speaker B: So let's see here. I've got the cards. How do you want to do it? You want me to just like, shuffle until you tell me to pick one? Do you want to do a three card spread? Do you want to do a two card, single card? What do you want to do? We can do a three card. You want to do a past, present, future. Okay, let's do a three card. I'll, uh, start shuffling and you just tell me. Windows out.

Speaker A: Stop.

Speaker B: Okay, so that's going to be the first one. Let me just mix it up a little bit here and we'll go again.

Speaker A: Stop.

Speaker B: Okay, there's the second one. Switch this up a little bit. Okay. And then we'll go third time.

Speaker A: Stop.

Speaker B: Okay, this one's under here. Okay, so we have our three cards. And first one we're going to do is your past. And that is. Can you see what that is? That is the nine of swords. Oh, okay. That's kind of interesting. So what do you see? What comes up for you when you look at, uh, that imagery?

Speaker A: Well, it's not a positive picture, Bill, I'm gonna be honest.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Uh, it's a little dark.

Speaker B: Yeah. It has a little bit of darkness to it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Despair. I see a little bit of that. A little bit of, like, difficulty. Mhm.

Speaker B: Fair enough. Yeah. Okay.

Speaker A: Which, which was, um. Was this past?

Speaker B: This is past. Yeah, this is past. Okay, interesting. So, um, you're right. It's. It kind of symbolizes a little bit of, um, regrets, like past, past occurrences, past mistakes, misfortunes, um, tension, uh, some suffering associated. But like, usually once you've reflected, then you realize where the suffering came from. Um, it could also indicate past troubled dreams, um, sort of, um, unresolved, uh, dreams. Um, I think there's always, um, some powerful imagery in the. The sort of checkerboard aspect of this, which just looks like a little bit like, you know, maybe a blanket. But there's also a bit of the choices, um, and circumstances of a checkerboard, like which routes you took and why. Yeah, it's also to do with kind of belief and attitudes, um, and then the sense of wanting something to have been completed. The, that Maybe did not complete. Um, and ultimately you have to kind of go through that stages. Like if you think about these sword or these. Yeah. Swords. It's almost like the. I think are there nine or seven stages of grief? I always forget.

Speaker A: But like.

Speaker B: Okay, yeah. So I almost think of these as like elevations of, um, grief. Like, uh, a ladder. Interesting. Right? So yes, there's swords hanging, but you could also see it like a ladder. Mhm. So that's past, present. Oh, this is a great card.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So you have the uh, Ace of Pentacles, um, which. Tell me what you see. Because it's uh, it's just a beautiful card.

Speaker A: I think personally, I mean y'. All. It's a lot different than the, uh, pass card. I will say that I was like, oh, gosh, what's good? What's going to come up next? Um, no, this is like happiness. This is like nirvana. Like very content, like beautiful gardens, you know, sunny, bright, like.

Speaker B: Yep. Yeah, yeah. This is all about, um, planting like you said, Planting, ah, new venture. Um, kind of the indication of prosperity, new light, um, coming and felt. Um, this is, ah, all about kind of that untouchable intuition. Right. Like it sort of emerges from a place that is unknown but is truer than true. Um, and think of it almost as if, um, even in a dark room you have a source of light.

Speaker A: Amazing.

Speaker B: Yeah. So that's, um. I also love. It's a little bit of like the yellow brick road kind of imagery down here, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a little Ozzie and.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Which again, I, I love. It's got a little bit of the daffodils and. Yeah, so that's a great card for present. Um, so you're winning there, Travis. Clearly.

Speaker A: That feels good.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you're in a good place. And your future, uh, card is the King of Cups.

Speaker A: Oh.

Speaker B: So it's kind of interesting is I don't know if I've ever pulled this card, um, because the imagery usually like, it's sort of the imagery like, of each card you kind of. It sort of stays with you. You're like, oh, yeah, I remember that. Um, this one is kind of new to me, so I'm going to have to do a little bit of referencing here just to make sure I get it right for you. Um, but tell me what you see or feel just by looking at this one.

Speaker A: I mean, looks prosperous. Um, I. Obviously regal. There's ah, there's a, you know, royalty aspect of it, but I, I feel like there's not contentment's the wrong word. But, like, there's like. There's kind of an air of, like, made it, did it?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Here I am, um, like, kind of presence within it. That's a very interesting card.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, not having pulled it before, the thing that stands out to me is kind of the, um, the different tones, the different colors of the robes. Right, right. The red, the yellow, the blue. I think of those immediately as the primary colors, which is kind of interesting. So it's almost like grounding and rooting in, um, the simplest, but also allows you to sort of be elegant. Right. You don't have to put a lot of ostentatious additional. Um, you can build off the primary, the regal, if you will. Um, so typically, its interpretation is about culture and growth, um, representation and creativity, interestingly enough. So, again, going back to the primary colors, it's sort of, um, you need to know those three basic foundations in order to actually build out a palette. Um, and it's certainly a favorable card, a favorable situation. Um, what's interesting is it's very much anchored in artistic pursuit. So it is interesting to think about. And maybe something you. You should think about is what is in the future, possibility for you that has to do with an artistic pursuit. Again, calling on those foundational primary colors, if you will, to make something that is, um, regal and outlasts. So think of legacy. Right. Think of, um, something that will outlast you. So that's a really good card. That's the first time I pulled it.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: So there we go. We just did a card poll on a podcast.

Speaker A: I love that on a podcast. Y' all were here for it.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, and I'll do one more, which is a little bit of a bonus. So I have this little box that I made years ago. Um, I studied under a teacher who for about a year, she taught us all about the Enneagram, um, among the many tools of kind of personality understanding and assessment. And she basically had us write down what we called wisdom nudges. Um, and these were like, little. Just whatever came to your. Your mind, whatever came to your consciousness. Uh, and you just wrote down the paper until every piece of paper in this box was filled. And so now going to do a little bit of a, ah, a draw for you. I'm just going to reach into the little wisdom nudges boxes, and I'm going to pull one for you, and I'm going to read it for you. Um, this is a fun one. Planet Waking has no snooze button. You can't Send a light year call to voicemail, So I don't know what that means. Like, something is coming your way. Um, but a light year call can't be sent to voicemail. So that tells me that there's. There's something coming your way, Travis.

Speaker A: Um, and something that's been planned for a long time.

Speaker B: For a long time. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: And not. And not necessarily by me. Right. By the universe. Right. Like, it's on its way. Probably predates even re. Existing.

Speaker B: There you go.

Speaker A: I love it.

Speaker B: And your. Your. Your neuropsychology, uh, will be ready for it, so.

Speaker A: Well. Well, we'll see. I don't know. I don't. I don't know that knowing neuropsychology, neuroscience helps you be any better at, uh, at accepting change. But, uh, you know, it does. It does help you understand others as they go through it.

Speaker B: I. I. Like, I definitely. And maybe that's just it. Maybe. Maybe our role is to understand others so that they. In those moments right on. On a, uh, disclosure day, as we. As we talk about, um, they can at least look to someone and say, hey, you seem composed. You seem clear of mind. You seem clear of head. Um, what do you got going on? Right. Um, to your point, you and I both been invited to a lot of rooms where, um, like, you, I was in my mid-20s, and I'm like, I shouldn't be in this room, but I was the one in the room, um, and that they were asking advice from. So, uh, it's a privilege, for sure. Um, but yeah, no, I'm glad we did that. That was kind of fun. Um, that was really fun. You don't have to reflect on it now, but I do think, um, that is a pretty interesting past, present, future.

Speaker A: That is. What's funny is it. It makes a lot of sense.

Speaker B: Does.

Speaker A: Does Good. It's funny because the first time I ever had a tarot reading was actually when I was, gosh, like seven. Wow.

Speaker B: Very young.

Speaker A: Wow. Um, I've never had one since, by the way. That was the first one. First one. I'm not gonna tell you in how many years y'. All, but, uh, it's the. It's been a minute. Um, and, uh. And it was actually at a party, so my dad. This is a kid. We'll go into a little bit of vulnerability, learn a little bit about my family. My. My family owned car dealerships, and, uh, my dad was a car dealer. And, uh, he was very good at what he did. And, uh. And he's still very good at what he does, but, uh, he used to go to the National Auto Dealers Association Conference, um, you know, kind of on a yearly basis, and it was always someplace different. But, uh, my parents were kind enough to take myself and my younger brother anytime. It was in Orlando, because we get to go to Disney and, like, you know, enjoy. Enjoy Florida. Um, but these parties that they would throw during this conference for, like, the dealers and, like, the, you know, suppliers and things that were over the top. I mean, we're talking like, the Swan Dolphin Hotels. Like, they had the whole place rented out, and there are rooms on rooms and ice sculptures and cars everywhere. And, like, they literally put pickups in the middle of, like, rooms that. You have no idea how in the world they got pickups, how it got in there. M And so I, uh, remember one where I think it was kind of like a, um. What would it be? Like a Marty, not Marty Gro theme, but, like, kind of in that, like, festival style. And, uh, and there was a fortune teller, and I wanted to get my fortune read so badly. And, um, I think my dad misheard me when I asked if I could, um. And he'll probably listen to this, and he'll probably call me and be like, what on earth? Um, but I, I He said yes. I think I, I think he thought that I asked him if I could go, like, get something to eat or like a, like, drink or something like that. Um, he said yes. And then, like, two minutes later, I'm m sitting with this. With this, you know, tarot card reader. And, uh, and he came over. He was like, oh, um, just remember, like, you're kind of young. And then he, he walked away. He was like, like, it's fine. Uh, walked away. She turns to me and she goes, well, I don't need to flip the card to know that maybe your father's a little bit hard to please or, like, something along those lines. And I remember that so distinctly. And, um, and that that has stuck with me since that moment. And, and not that that's necessarily true, but I just thought it was so funny. And in that moment when she just, like, turned right to me and she's like, I don't need to flip a card for that one, but here you are. Here's your nugget of information of, like, insight from me to read on this. Uh, but anyway, so, yeah, so very interesting.

Speaker B: I, I do find it fascinating. Again, like, to that point, you don't need to flip a card to know what you already know. And I think, I think these are all Just sort of little. I don't want to call them excuses, because they're not excuses, but they're little reminders that oftentimes all the wisdom and all the knowledge we need already exists within us. We just need. Like, sometimes we need a distraction, sometimes we need validation, sometimes we need affirmation. And so that's why I do love some of this stuff, because people say, like, what are you doing? And I say, I don't do anything. Like, all I did was shuffle. That's it. You did the work. Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: And that's a pretty. That's a pretty good one, um, to have done the work on. So, um, but, you know, all of these little. All of these little additional tools in our toolkit, um, help us help people go through change. And to me, that's why I keep showing up doing what I'm doing. That's why you keep showing up doing what you're doing. I'd love to talk a little bit about what's ahead for you. I mean, obviously, the book is out there. It's been out there. You've straddled the world of corporate. You're also an author. You've worked at places like Google and Salesforce. Um, tech is pretty crazy right now. I think we can both speak to that. But what is ahead for Travis?

Speaker A: You know, I. I get to live. I. Honestly such a. Such a blessed, um, life where I get to lead a team of incredible people. My. My team. I couldn't ask for better folks to be by my side. Um, I learned from them on a weekly basis. I hope that they would say that they learned something from me as well. Um, we. We make really, really meaningful progress in the way that, you know, these crazy tech companies are. Are changing and evolving and, you know, AI, um. And then on the side, I get to help leaders connect better with their people and become better leaders and really understand deeply what their teams go through and how they. How they can help make it better. And, uh, you know, one thing I've said, uh, to leaders is what a privilege it is to get to stand side by side through change with people and helping them through that. And, you know, a lot of leaders, like, well, what do I do? Like, I'm supposed to know the answers. I'm supposed to be the one that they turn to, to get, you know, to answer their questions. And what if I just found out about this too? And I don't even know how I feel about the change? And I always say, you know, what. What an amazing opportunity to be in the Trenches and be vulnerable about the fact that we're all being asked to change. You are being asked, I'm being asked. And I don't know what it means for me yet. And that's okay, but we'll go through it together. Nothing builds teams better than a shared purpose and challenge and adversity. And so it's really a privilege to lead change. And so I'm fortunate enough to be able to not only do it in my day job, but also help other leaders do it, um, kind of in my. In my free time, quote, unquote, if. As if I had any of that, really. Um, but, uh, you know, for me, it really comes down to I just. I just announced a new, um, a new talk. Um, so typically, my keynotes have been very neuroscience focused. Um, and. And they've been all about, like, explaining change and from a neuroscience perspective. And that's really what came into this book. Um, I just announced a new keynote package. It's called why your AI transformation is neurologically destined to fail. I love. And what to do about it.

Speaker B: I love that.

Speaker A: And. And it's really. And it's really about talking to companies about, like, I. I think our companies feel like they're being the cool, like, older brother or cousin that's like, I just got you all the cool stuff, like, go play with it. Like, here's all the tech. Go play with it. And the realities of what that actually does to people is so different. And so, um, so for me, you know, what's next is really leaning into this AI and agentic era and say, you know, let's think about what this means for people. Let's talk about it. Um, the thing I've been saying most to leaders recently has been then AI. The way that we're introducing AI into our companies is similar to if I were to walk up to you and ask you for your bank account and your PIN number. Yep. It could either. What. What's your initial reaction when I ask you for that?

Speaker B: Get that.

Speaker A: Always negative. Right? Right. It's always negative. It's like, this guy's gonna rob me blind. What are you talking about? Absolutely not. The, uh, the other side of it, though, is that, hey, Bill, I think your podcast is amazing, and I wanted to just give you a million bucks to invest in it.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: I could give you money, too. I don't have to take it. But your mind immediately goes to the. It's going to be taken from me. AI is the same thing, and that's how we're approaching it. We're saying here, go play. And our people are looking at it and going, this is either going to be the thing that makes my career and, like, it propels me forward and, uh, unlocks all this stuff, or it's going to be the thing that destroys me. Yep. And there's no in between. And they don't know which it is. And so, you know, when we say things like, go play, find efficiency, be more productive, like, everyone's mind goes to, well, I don't want to know how. Like, how much efficiency do I really want to find in my job? Because the more, you know, perhaps the less you think you need me. Um, that's a scary place for people.

Speaker B: I love the fact that you're not only naming it, but you're building a whole keynote around it, and you're going to go talk to people about it. And I can, I'm. I can definitely connect you to people that need to hear that keynote, need to be in the room for that keynote, because, um, you know, very similar sides of what we're both doing. Right. I wrote a book, um, last year, all about leading change in this era of AI, and the piece that I find really interesting is I didn't set out for it to be, but it turned. It turned out to be a collection of love letters to humanity. And I have people reaching out to me and saying, this book is evergreen. Meaning the more we get into this era of AI, the more what you wrote over two years, um, stands out and is really critical that people hear. Um, and it's because when I set out to write the book, I actually did not set out to write a book. What I set out to do was give people permission to discern and ask questions and say, I'm feeling this way, but you're telling me I should be celebrating that way, or vice versa. Right. And it turns out when you give people permission to understand what they're feeling and ask very discerning questions, they remember you and they thank you. And so I love the fact that you're doing it. It's so needed. It's so timely. Um, and that bank account analogy is perfect. So bravo.

Speaker A: Thank you. Uh, I'm really excited for it because to your point, I think there's just. There's so many that need to hear what's happening. And I. And similar to you, you know, if I can. And I say this in the book, like, my, My hope is that what I'm doing maybe gives us one more inch towards a more human centric, more people caring, empathetic corporate world. And I think that's so powerful. And I think we underestimate it so much every day as leaders and as companies. And, um, not because we intentionally do it. It's just there's stuff that needs to be done, and sometimes emotion and feeling gets in the way of execution, but it's really. Those things are so powerful to 10x execution if you do it really, really well. Um, and so, yeah, so I hope that it becomes something really cool. Um, and that's kind of what's on the. What's on the front burner for me. There's a lot of things on the back burner that kind of has stayed there for a while, but, uh, that's what's on the front.

Speaker B: Well, if you find yourself in Seattle or, uh, the Bay Area regions, um, let me know. I would love to say hi, Micah. Um, or if I end up in South Dakota on my drive through South Dakota, I'll let you know. Um, one last thing I'll share with you, then I'll let you go. It's, again, it's a timely thing I saw yesterday. So I was actually walking, uh, from my office to a doctor's appointment yesterday, and I, uh, noticed all these people gathered right near, um, Lake Union here in. Here in Seattle. And there was this super yacht, I mean, massive super yacht parked, uh, on Lake Union. Um, it almost looked like it was, um, too big for the lake. I think it was that big. And I saw these people gathering, and I was like, why? I mean, yeah, it's a super yacht. It's like, really nice yacht. But, like, why are these people standing? Some of them are taking pictures, but they're all standing sort of at the base of this yacht, of course, on the other side of a fence. Right. So there's protection. Um, and I stopped and I asked someone, and it turned out that the super yacht belonged to Mark Zuckerberg. And a number of these people were among the 1400 who had just been laid off, um, by Meta in the. In this region. And, uh, one of them said to me essentially that, um, they were kind of grieving the layoff, um, from earlier this week or last week. And they couldn't believe the, um, the disparity between their experience and this person who made this decision. And they kind of wanted to just go and stand there. Um, and I just thought that was so interesting. Like, to your point, around, like, the experience, the neurology, the psychology, like us trying to make sense of the world is a really cumbersome experience. And What a brave person that was to, like, be days after their layoff, to be grieving and then be like, you know what? I think I need to go and look at what crazy amounts of wealth does to people. Um, and again, I don't want to put words in their head, but maybe they were thinking, like, may I never be in that position where I do that type of thing to people like me, you know, and it just. It was just such a weird but also very telling experience to see that happen live yesterday. Um, and I think there's going to be more of it in the future.

Speaker A: I think you're right. And, you know, I already talked about my dad once on the podcast, so I might as well do it twice.

Speaker B: It.

Speaker A: There's one thing that's always stuck with me as I was growing up, um, and to this day is my dad has always said, you will learn something in every moment so long as you decide it's something to learn. And oftentimes the biggest learning is about what you never want to do versus what you do. And he's like. So he was always like, you know, you might have a horrible boss that you just don't love, but think of all the things you're going to learn from that person, about how you never want to lead someone, how you never want someone else to feel in those moments. And so I think there's something really beautiful about, you know, standing there and saying, this isn't what I want to do. This isn't who I am. I'm committing myself to this idea and ideal that I can, if I am ever given the opportunity to have that platform, that wealth, that, um, that standing, that's not what I'm gonna do.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And right, wrong or indifferent, like, I. I don't know everything. You know, we can't pretend to know everything about what Mark had, you know, on his pros and cons lists and what he, you know, had in front of him from choices to make. Um, but it's enough to just stand there in your own truth and say, this is not who I want to be, and this is. I now know that my value is X, and I will not deviate from that. Um, it's a beautiful thing.

Speaker B: It's a beautiful realization, and life is a chrysalis. Right. Um, if we let it be. So I so appreciate, um, the opportunity to chat. Today's conversation didn't go anything like I expected, and I'm so glad, truly.

Speaker A: So thank you. Oh, Bill, it's been wonderful. Thank you so much for having me um, you know, we might have to do another tarot reading. You know, do another one where we just do tarot readings.

Speaker B: I'd be up for it, man. We'll. We'll record that one separately, and you can just use that. Listen to it. Um, but no, I appreciate the, uh, the. The creativity, the curiosity and fun. Right? I mean, so much of what we do is very heavy and very serious, and having a little fun makes all the difference. So I'm. I'm appreciative that, uh, that we got to do that. And, um, I'll snap a picture of the. Of the spread, and I'll send it to you so you can have it to refer to.

Speaker A: I love it.

Speaker B: Um, I always tell people, take a picture, throw it to whatever your AI tool of choice is and ask it to interpret it. And then it's. It's really interesting to watch said tool interpret this because, um, it does not have intuition. No AI tool has intuition. And so it'll pattern seek, but it won't do what you just did here live, which was the intuition of what came up in you and what you saw and what lasted for you.

Speaker A: So, bravo. No, that's really cool. And Bill, even. Even more so if I can take one more second of your time, anyone listening who, uh, goes out and decides that Rethink Resistance is a book that would mean something to you or someone else, um, if you purchase the book and reach out to me with your purchase, I actually have tarot cards of resistance that. Do you really. I'm having made that, uh, I will. I'm, uh, going to be drawing some folks to send a packet of, uh, of resistance tarot cards to. So not. And this was unplanned, you guys, completely. I. I promise, I swear this was in no way planned. I have told no one about these cards, so, um, I'm telling all of you. So if you buy the book, send me your purchase. Um, send me a note. I will, uh, I'll enter you into, uh, the group. There's. There's gonna be a lot of them, so there'll be a lot of folks getting resistance tarot cards. But, um. But I would. I would love to share that with you all.

Speaker B: That's amazing. I am so glad that this is where it went. And you literally just again, legacy, right? Thinking about that. Um, you're literally putting something out in the world that you hadn't spoken to yet. And so the power of that is irrefutable. Uh, so. Bravo, Travis. Bravo.

Speaker A: Thank you, Bill. Well, thank you for having me again. And, uh, this was a lot of fun.

Speaker B: Awesome. So remind people just one last time, name of the book where they can find it. Can they connect with you on LinkedIn? Where's the best place for people to say, uh, hey, I want more of Travis in my life?

Speaker A: Absolutely. So, uh, the book is Rethink, uh, Embracing Neuroscience to Lead Transformational change. Uh, available June 23rd and, uh, from Fast Company. You can find out more on my website, travishaler.com book if you'd like. If you're coming from the podcast specifically, travishailor.com podcast has some interesting snippets. Uh, that's kind of a great place to start. And then, yes, please connect with me on LinkedIn. I love to hear feedback. I'd love to hear how it landed with you, what you're taking away from it, and also what challenges you have, too. I think we live in a world where, you know what, I have done a lot of work in this space, but I'd also love to hear what else isn't in the book that should be.

Speaker B: Absolutely. There's always a part two and a continuation when it comes to change. So thanks again, Travis, and kudos to your dad. Say hi to dad as well. Thanks for. Thanks for joining the podcast.

Speaker A: Whether or not.

Speaker B: Hi, Dave.

Speaker A: Sam.