How Leaders Build Strong Cultures While Scaling Global Teams with Carol MacKinlay

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to Franklin Covey's C Suite Conversations. My name is Patrick Leddon and I have the honor of being the host for C Suite. Today I'm joined by Carol McKinley. She's a chief Human Resources Officer at Pebble, formerly known as Velocity Global. Carol has spent more than 30 years leading people strategies at organizations of all sizes. We'll talk today about her career lessons from scaling teams across the globe and her thoughts on the future of work. With that said, Carol, welcome to the show.

Speaker A: Thank you so much. It's nice to be here.

Speaker B: It's nice to have you here. You know Carol, it's oftentimes nice to start with a little bit about who's the person on the other side of the microphone, just so listeners get a feel for your experiences and your perspective on things. So if you don't mind, tell us a little bit about how you landed the role that you're in at pebble right now. What was that career so far like so far?

Speaker A: I love that. Thank you, I appreciate that.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, you're not done yet. We got a long way to go probably.

Speaker A: So I feel like I will probably work till forever so. So I do have an interesting background. We could probably talk that through. Very different from a, ah, typical HR person. I have an applied math degree from Berkeley. Um, I was told by my father to get a degree in something I could prove to him that I could get uh, paid for. So that eliminated for him all liberal arts, uh, languages, history, all the good stuff that I was probably more apt for. And I evolved through trying to be a software engineer, deciding I didn't like that, uh, and ended up with basically an industrial engineering degree. So I'm a process improvement person by training and kind of by background too. So I'm a systems thinker, um, and so I leveraged that to the not obvious to become a process improvement person for Blue Cross. Tried that, didn't like it, shifted into FP and A actually. So I have a pretty decent time doing financial work, um, and ended up at KPMG doing strategic planning if you will, for failed savings and loans back in the day when uh, especially the real estate development community got a hold of financial uh, institutions and didn't do them right. So early in my career you would get me as a mini CFO to model you out of your problems and to get the savings and loans out of receivership and back to business. Business ended up taking that to executive pay, which is very much the intersection of kind of tax and strategy, finance. All of those good Things to, you know, effect make effective bonus plans, you know, do equity plans properly, that kind of thing. So shifted within kpmg, actually from one group to the other, ended, ended up as an executive pay consultant. Uh, we decided that we were bringing more work to the firm than they were bringing to us. So we took our book of business and started our own company. So I was one of the original executive pay consultants back in the day when Frederick Cook was a name, um, way before Radford, uh, way before some of the, the consulting firms that are out there now, and ended up with that, um, doing a project for Plantronics. And the board decided when the VP of HR quit that they would give me the job. And so I have had no background in HR and ended up in the top job. And that's the perspective I bring. Uh, now having done Xero and Plantronics and Coverity and Matterport and now Velocity Global or Pebble, um, I come in from a financial side. I come in from a process improvement angle, and I bring that to hr. Rather than somebody who's grown up through the HR function to learn to become an expert in hr, I bring the business side to the HR group. So. And then just one last thing about coming to Pebble, I had thought perhaps it was time for me to, to go off and do some of the real estate things that I enjoy doing. And then I met Francoise, who is my boss, the, um, CEO at Pebble. And I was so impressed with her that I had to, I wanted to see her be successful. And so I joined the team, um, to see if we could re. Energize this company and, uh, and take it to higher heights. So.

Speaker B: So, yeah, that's a really interesting path you've been down. You're right. It's different than many. I do have some similarities. I worked at KPMG as well. I, uh, was at KPMG Consulting, and I was on a finance project initially and then moved over to Human Capital and then left KPMG to start my own firm. So we have some similarities there. I had it for about 12. Yeah, I had that firm for about 12 years and then we exited it through an acquisition. So I have some similarities to you, which is really, really fun. I'm curious. Um, you mentioned that they asked you to take that senior HR role. Uh, I'd love to dig into that a little bit. What do you think they saw in you that asked. That led them to asking you that? And then secondly, what doubts or concerns did you have taking the role?

Speaker A: I'll Take the second one first.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, please, yeah.

Speaker A: Not having a background in hr, HR is this huge umbrella of activities, right. And there is art and there is science, and there is taxes and there is detail. Um, you know, ah, as I say now, it's like HR is doing a thousand things a day, you know, in rapid succession and being an expert in all of them. Um, and so that was my concern was I had no background in benefits administration or um, even because I was doing executive pay, even salary ranges. Right. So some basic HR things. And so what I've learned is that you can hire people who are experts in those and they can teach me as we go. So I always like to collaborate with my team and make sure that, uh, it's a two way street as far as learning goes. Um, but the second thing, what did they see in me? I think that this has been true for my career is CFO's love me because I can speak their language. Um, I'm a very good, I usually use the word ombudsman. It's not the right word. I can sit in the middle between what the company's needs are and what the employee's needs are and see both sides and bring everybody together. And I think that comes across to management teams that I'm going to carry the flag for the employee. Within reason, right? Within, within reason. But I'm going to make sure people get what they, what they would like if it's reasonable for the company to do so. And then I can speak to the board. So I'm on a public company board right now. Um, I've been on boards all my life and as a consultant, I'm sure you too were presenting to boards. So I speak board ease if you pretty well. Um, and that is not typical in the HR function. I'm seeing that as a growing part of the job is to be able to be perceived as somebody who can come into a board meeting and really give value.

Speaker B: I love that because as you're talking about that, I'm just thinking people that are listening to the podcast right now, whether they're earlier on in their career and they're thinking, okay, I'm on this path and this is the one I'm going to stay on, maybe not. And the chance to um, kind of ebb and flow and change and take the things that you learn and bring them with you, allows, uh, you to do things like you mentioned, like the perspective you're able to bring, the ability to speak the language of business that sometimes we don't have Uh, a lot of exposure to. And we have to kind of try to garner that later in our career or hide the fact that we don't have it. You had it, you built it along the way and the ability to be an advocate at times. So these are really critical things that you picked up along the way. So tell, tell us a little bit about pebble, um, a little bit about the business. I know, I know some of the stuff you dabble in. I like to explore that a bit because I don't say dabble in. You work in every day and you're experts in, uh. I'd love to learn a little bit more about that and let the audience kind of learn about this rather unique type of business you're involved in.

Speaker A: This is true. Yeah. So, uh, you know, I've used employer of record services before, obviously in my career. I think, I think very few people haven't that are in the HR function. But it's an interesting business to be the company that is really outsourcing everything. So a PEO would outsource, you would have an entity and you would be outsourcing your HR functions for the most part to them, um, and leveraging them in certain places. An EOR is different in that we actually have the entity status. So you really need no lawyers. All the people that are related with keeping an entity or a subsidiary going, um, you don't need those because that's what we do. So we've got some of the best lawyers, we've got great compliance people, we have wonderful HR people. And we make sure that we deliver to your employees what you would want delivered in places that you're not allowed to employ. So we're in, we're authorized, uh, to employ in 180 countries. We're in about. At any given time. We're in 120 plus. Um, as things evolve, as countries come and go, we provide benefits, we provide white glove onboarding, white glove offboarding, and we make sure that we treat your employees the way that you'd want to. But we also keep you in compliance. And that's, uh, that's one of the most important things we do. And in an interesting time. This is a very old and kind of quiet industry. And now we've got some competitors that are throwing grenades at each other, which is interesting. It's become a very spicy industry of late with Bill and Rippling kind of, uh, sparring with each other about who's non compliant and who's doing things wrong. So we are trying to take the standard that we do things right.

Speaker B: When you do this work, is it mostly virtual? Is there a lot of in real life work? I mean, how does that kind of play out? Because I'm sure people are listening, going, okay, employer record, I've heard of that. Um, maybe they don't work in the HR function. They haven't touched it that much. Um, but what does that kind of look like from a tactical perspective?

Speaker A: Yeah, so, I mean the easy use case is a company that's scaling and decides they want to say, open a sales organization in Europe and they don't have entities there. They've identified a person to be the managing director and they need someone to employ that person while they get going. Clearly they're not a contractor. So we have a lot of contractor compliance, um, cases that we can fix. And so we employ them. They are our employee, but we try to make that as imperceptible as possible. So they are, they are getting what you would want them to get. Um, and so that's the use case. So as a result, we're employing people right now in 47 countries, um, uh, internally. So we're running our own payroll for 47 countries to make sure people can speak the local language, understand the local customs and the rules both, and to make sure that uh, each employee is getting treated, you know, with respect in the areas that they, that they are working so well.

Speaker B: I'd love to pick that apart a little bit. So the, um, let's take the example of a sales leader being placed in Europe that you mentioned. And um, let's say that they're being successful, they're starting to grow, but they continue to use your services along the way? We, what have you seen, um, about those situations where organizations are trying to grow in a certain area? What have you seen that they've done well? Maybe kind of from the client side or just supporting them. What they've, they've done well. And where have they struggled sometimes?

Speaker A: Yeah, well, they've done well. I mean, I think, you know, HR organizations around the world do things well. Right. And so, so influencing that, um, as a, as ah, if they're going to grow a full EMEA organization, for example, Right. Of just thinking through the cultures, the cultural differences, the way you want to structure things, all that. So that's the good part is we do it well, they do it well, we can work together to do it well. Where people struggle, I think, and I've struggled even on my own. We decide that we want to open a engineering organization in Toronto. And so someone Says, go ahead and open the legal entity and get going. And then the Patriot act kicks in, and a year later you still don't have a bank account you're not able to employ. I think people are very naive both about setting things up, um, at the entity structure. We have actually, I think eight or nine people that just set up entities internally, um, just to do it right and get it situated correctly. So there's a naivete there. And then on top of it, it's the cost. And I'm actually promoting that. We, um, we do have a calculator for CFOs to look at the cost of keeping an entity going. There's a lot of hidden costs there. And then there's the. Are you actually able to understand the compliance? Um, and I see a lot of people spending a lot of money with outside counsel to make sure that they've done things correctly on the labor side of things. And again, we can do that internally. So.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I know from having my own business, even a business that we operated in a. We had a few states where we had, um, offices. But just staying on top of things like the letter that comes in the mail that you didn't expect coming can kind of surprise you. And it's like you didn't pay this fee or you didn't pay this local tax or did, you know, there was a school district here or whatever it might be. And I can imagine when you start to scale that, it's just tremendous because. And then add to that the layers of just, um, global issues. Right. Issues associated with this country doesn't want to play with that country anymore. And you have to figure out how to work your way through that. When you look to.

Speaker A: That.

Speaker B: When you look to the future, um, what are some things that you're kind of keeping your eye on or that you're concerned a bit about?

Speaker A: Well, on the positive side, what I'm seeing is. And we're actually having a panel tomorrow, uh, at HR Tech in Las Vegas, um, that I'm moderating. So if you're there, please come.

Speaker B: I'm there. I'm actually the keynote on, uh, the second day in the morning.

Speaker A: Oh, lovely. We'll have to see you. I'll have to go.

Speaker B: James Patterson and I have a book coming out and we keynote that day.

Speaker A: That is great. Well, congratulations m on that.

Speaker B: All right, I'll see you.

Speaker A: No, no. And so we're running a panel on the future payroll, actually. Um, and so we are. We. We want to be seen as, ah, the, um, the Company that you know, sees the future and is getting ready for the alternatives out there. But you know, if you're an employee in Brazil and you're looking at the astronomic and kind of crazy cost of living increases and things going on there, we are seeing a massive number of people wanting to be paid in US dollars, which is not legal and you can't do that. You know, some people are um, and so looking at the future of, of alternative um, ways of paying, of paying to credit cards, even of paying in crypto. And so that, that's the crux of the panel tomorrow. I have, I have some crypto industry people talking about cross border payments and how those can be done better, cheaper, free even and that looking at paying people in stablecoins, um, is the future. So we're getting prepared for that. We're already paying in crypto, but we want to do it at the nth degree. And so I actually have a product team internally that's getting ready to uh, kind of take the lead there in the industry. But I mean that's what I see is uh, I see HR evolving into a concierge function. And I have been saying that for the last three or four years. There's a lot of administrative things that I used to say could go to the cfo. I actually think now I can take an awful lot of those functions and be trained to do some of the administrative things. When you look at recruiting, it is the same funnel that we work through in marketing of taking people all the way through. So there's something to be said that, you know, for a while there we had the talent folks reporting into the CEO for companies that felt recruiting was the ultimate thing that was going to get them ahead. Recruiting is its own animal. But what's left in HR is being an employee concierge. You have a different need than I do. You may want to buy a house, I may want to have a baby. You may want to grow your career. I uh, may be at the end of my career all of those things. What we need to do is start to customize for the people to make sure that they're getting what they need from us. If it's again going back to, if it's in our capability and within reason for us to do, we should make sure that employees are having the experience they want to have at our companies.

Speaker B: I remember so I worked at Vanderbilt for the last 11 years as a professor and I, I was on this project one time. We were doing some big data work. Um, I was not Doing it. I'm not that guy. But I was in the room and they were talking about. I was following it, we were having a conversation, and they asked me a question about, um, what have I typically seen organizations do when it comes to, um, issues like retention? Or maybe they did an employee survey and they got feedback. What did they do? And I said, oftentimes what you'll see people do is they'll. They'll sit in a room and look at the results of the assessment, and they'll say, what did we score well in? And what do we struggle in? And then they'll try to put some programs in place to improve what they struggled in and hopefully not lose ground on things they did well. And then next year you get back in and you look at the results, and it's kind of that type of macro approach to something. We'll put a program in place, it'll have a widespread impact. And the people who are doing a lot of the modeling said, well, what if instead of why do they put programs in place? We had this conversation and they said, ultimately said this. They said, well, why don't you just go to the person who, who's going to leave and have a conversation with them three months in advance? And, uh, my answer was, because we don't always know who that is.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And they said, well, what if we could help figure out who that is? What if we're able to model the things that cause people that leave the organization or model things that people to prepare them for promotion or whatever it might be and help you understand, like, not who the one is. And that's what I hear you saying here, is understanding the needs of this person as opposed to that person. I think that's a. It's a dramatic shift from going, we're going to run programs to we're a concierge.

Speaker A: Exactly. Very much so. Right. And. And so digging in. But, but it goes back to. You, uh, know, one of the things you and I talked about, you know, as we were getting ready for this, is what are the things that. Where's the evolution of this job? It's communication and transparency on both sides. Right. It's getting into each person's mind and having a conversation with them up front. I, I have actually advocated before for almost doing like an eharmony survey as you hire somebody. What's your favorite color? What's your spouse's name? Where do you live? Where do you want to live? What's your ideal retirement? If I know all of these hundreds of things about You, I can customize your experience here. What's the best hook to retain people is to give them something they can't get someplace else. That is the ultimate hook is to say, I can't leave because at Plantronics we actually encourage nepotism and that people blanch in HR like, oh my gosh, we had families come and, uh, we had a manufacturing floor in Santa Cruz. We had an extended family that came to work every day. They brought their lunch, they ate lunch together, they migrated in together, they went home together, they brought their kids in with them. And most of them had been working there for 25 years. That was a hook that they could not get anywhere else. And it was, it made the culture fabulous to have this broad group of people. But I've always said that I am an advocate of bringing in family and friends. Um, I've had to fire the CEO's assistant, Sister, the receptionist before, so it has its warts. But if you get your family in there, you tend to stay. That's one easy hook. That is a non standard thing to do. So.

Speaker B: Well, when you talk about like giving people things that they can't find anyplace else, it does get down to what's that thing? And that thing is, is different for, for everybody. Everybody, right. So some people, it is a financial thing. And as much as reasonably you can do it, like you mentioned, you'll advocate for them and make that happen. But other times it might be. I mean, some people are like, wow, I could bring my family to work. We all could work together and have lunch together. That sounds amazing. Nobody else will give it to me. Other people are like, please do not do that. The idea, like, I come here to get away from those people for a few hours a day, I mean, facetious, but, um, you know what I mean? They don't necessarily want to bring their family to work with them. But the idea of understanding, which gets me to thinking about when you said, you know, if we could understand their favorite color and their spouse's name and all these type of things, we can understand them better. We can better meet those needs. That makes sense. But I also wonder, um, beyond the, like, some places you can't ask those questions or whatever it might be, but just beyond the what makes people comfortable sharing that in a world where we're getting more and more guarded of, yes, the relationship between employee and company. Many employees feel that I'm just a pawn and they're just going to use that information perhaps against me. How do you help people realize that I'M not saying that that system exists right now, but just how do you help people share what they need?

Speaker A: Well, uh, trust comes with, um, building a relationship. Right. So they have to understand that, um, you aren't going to abuse that relationship, that you're not going to take advantage, I'm not going to sell your data to somebody so they can market to you, etc. Right. But, but you also have to give people the credit and the ability to say no. So it's like, I would like to customize an experience for you, but if you have no interest in me doing that, that is perfectly fine. That, you know, we are going to give you the standard program that we think you want. We're going to pulse you anonymously and ask you what you want. You can give us the feedback that way. But if you directly want to say, I would be happier here if you would help me buy a car. Right. Um, we've had a few discussions of late about loans. Um, it's a tough environment right now and you know, lending money is something to both think about for us as a product even. Right. Ah, as to how do we get payroll advances to people, that's part of the discussion tomorrow too, so that they can move on with their lives and get what they need from us. So, um, the instant earned payroll is a thing to think about also. But. Yeah, all of that. But going back to what you said, it's building trust. People would give me their information if they actually trusted me to use it correctly. And that is where a lot of times when I come into a new, a new job, um, it's rebuilding the trust in the HR department and that goes back to communication and transparency again, um, and the access points, making sure that you're accessible.

Speaker B: Yeah. When you think about what you're hearing people saying they need, and I recognize you work around the world, so it's going to vary, you know, very. I mean, something that might seem like everybody has it, you go someplace and they don't, or vice versa. Um, are there certain things that you are starting to see as like, trends? Boy, I'm hearing more about this. Whether it's the payroll advances or other things and you know, what kind of conclusions or insights do you gain from hearing those things?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I mean, we are dealing with, gosh, not dealing with, but the employees that we support are everything from high level white collar workers down to, uh, pearl divers and cooks and, uh, people in a vast array of jobs. So the needs of our supported employees are broad. The needs of our own Employees, because I'm in so many countries, is broad. But the drumbeat I'm seeing is what can you do for my career? Right. And so how do you teach me more? How do you get me to understand different departments in the organization? How do I build my career? And so one of the key things I'm doing, we're still a startup, uh, we're startupy, startup, even as large as we are, is to move people around the company in a lateral motion. Um, when I got my MBA at usc, they did some personality testing and I came back as a, they called it transitory linear, which now, having given you my bio, I move laterally as I spiral up. Right. So I have gone across the organization or across industries before. I've moved up to the next job. I'm trying to do that broadly for the people that I mentor externally and also for the people internally is to get them the exposure to find out. And again, looking at my own career, it took me a while to figure out what I like to do. So having multiple, uh, points of exposure to even figure out what do you like to do and where do you want to grow your career? Um, those are as important as anything. But I do see a constant drumbeat of how do you help me build my career? That's the number one thing I think we can do.

Speaker B: It seems like if you're going to, like you said, the linear progression component, like kind of spiraling up, there's a lot of curiosity, um, that has to come into that. You're curious to say, how does that fun function work? How does this function work? Are, uh, you finding that when you provide opportunities for people, they are pretty curious. They are what they do want to go find those other things out and learn about that aspect of the business?

Speaker A: Well, I can tell you that we have, we have moved about 60% of our employees around this year. So as we, as this new management team came into pebble, we have been evolving what we're doing. We have been automating up, leveling, doing all sorts of things and we've moved 60% to new jobs. And that group is so energized by what they're doing now. Um, it has been, it has been, uh, it has gone from a place where people felt really dead ended. You know, I'm the only person in a far off country supporting a small group of employees here. This is great. But then what's next and what we're finding by, uh, by consolidating people together, by bringing in new ways of doing things that people are super energized by where their careers are heading.

Speaker B: You know, I think about, like earlier when you said things that they can, they can't get anyplace else. The takeaway as we talk about this piece is then what I can get in other places is a sense of isolation.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: A sense of too much routine, perhaps. Even though routine is comfortable and our brains like it, they don't always like it. And a chance to kind of learn new things is really, um, a critical one as well. You know, you have so many different, um, people out there around the world you interact with. And you mentioned you have the startup mentality going on and, uh, all these type of things. I mean, I would imagine that in your world, opportunities come across your desk like crazy where you can say, oh, that'd be cool, I'll go after that and we should do that. And that sounds neat, but you can't do them all. So, uh, how do you. Carol, how do you go? Okay, that's great. I got these 10 opportunities, but here's the ones we're going to focus on. What's your help? People listening to realize, like getting Carole's head of this process person historically, what's her process for going through and saying, okay, these are the ones we're going to go after.

Speaker A: I mean, the number one filter is people. And like I said, coming to work for Francois here, um, I feel honored actually to have been selected, um, going to work for Rod Durary at 0. Feel honored to have been selected to do that. But culture comes from the top. And so the CEO is the number one thing for me. Right. So a lot of people will give the. My position the chief customer, or, sorry, chief culture officer, um, mantle, but.

Speaker B: Or the chief concierge officer.

Speaker A: Well, which I think is where go. But. But on culture, the CEO makes the culture. I can articulate anything and we can violate it all day long if the management team is allowed to operate differently. So I look at the, that person in the lead chair and say, what are they trying to do? And how's that going to translate to my world? Is that do I want to actually enable that person to go farther, faster? So that's number one, the board. You know, in a startup, the board either can be passive or they can be an active board that's actually lending to positivity and to the growth of the company. Um, and there's different flavors of that. So I always look at who's invested in the company, what's their mindset, what's their exit plan, what's their mindset? How are they going to enable us to move forward? And then it's my peers, um, as far as that goes, it's like, are these the people that are going to get us there? The go to market team in a startup is super important. If you don't have the right go to market team, you're going to struggle. And so, uh, before I make a decision, I look at all those things and then finally, like, what's the tam? When you look at the, what's the total addressable market that's out there for you to tackle? Theoretically, in the EOR business, it's every person who's employed. So the TAM is in the multiple trillions of dollars. If this is where this goes. So this is. While this sounds like a niche opportunity, it's really not. If, if we can convince you you don't need to have anything internal and we can do it all externally for you and you could focus on your product and your sales. The TAM is incredibly large, and so I always take a look at those things as I consider where I'm, um, where I'm heading to.

Speaker B: No, that makes sense. We often ask people on the podcast as we get close to wrapping things up, if you were to give advice to people and you have a chance, you personally have a chance to interact with lots of people and you've seen in your career many things. If you're able to give one piece of advice to, uh, people listening to the podcast, whether they're in the C suite themselves and they're just looking for a little insight that'll be helpful, or they're earlier on in their career. Regardless of where they are. What's one piece of solid advice you would suggest to folks?

Speaker A: It's the same. So again, my first, my first HR job was at Plantronics. And the one thing I jumped over in my bio is I took seven years off to be a mom. Um, and so I had the fun at Plantronics of riding the stock up quite a bit. They went from near bankrupt to a really nice $60 stock price. And I decided at that point to get married, start a family and take a few years off. As I exited, I gave them advice to the management team and it's the same advice I would give today. Humility goes a long way. Being transparent, being accessible, talking to people, understanding who the people are that are getting you farther along, those are all super important things. And it's not just my job to do that, it's your job to do that. And that management team, actually, you know, Ken Kanepaum was the CEO there, and he was beloved by the employees because he was actually out befriending people and getting to know who they were and what was going on there. That is invaluable. And I think a lot of people build a wall around themselves. You know, you get to the ivory tower and the executive lunchrooms and all of that, you know, with different benefit programs for the senior team. I don't believe that that is a positive. Has a positive effect on organizations. I think, um, being as flat as you can and being as open as you can, as long as you can is the right way to go, though.

Speaker B: So I love. I love that. I love that. And I heard it in your voice as we were going through the conversation. It's a difficult one because I'm asking you, tell me about this about yourself, and tell me about that about yourself. But at the same time you were sharing those things, you were also saying, I really feel fortunate to work for this person and that person. That's been a gift to me. Or my job is to do concierge type work. And I see that going forward. That's very much a service mindset. So I appreciate the humility you brought to this conversation today, Carol, and thanks for. Thanks so much for sharing your insights and your experiences with us today. You know, it's really clear from the work that you do at Pibble, you're not just, you know, shaping one, uh, particular function in an organization. You're shaping entire organizations by helping them take talent and make that talent truly global in this economy. That's a really challenging thing. I really appreciate your perspective about scaling teams and the importance of culture and really preparing for the work. That's not only what we're doing today, but. But we're going to do into the future. So, Carol, thanks so much for joining us.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: I really appreciate having you here. And, folks, thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this conversation, I encourage you to share a link to this podcast with a friend or colleague and let them check it out as well. I'm Dr. Patrick Ledden. That's all I have, so go make it a great day.