#178 - Why to Use a Broker for Your Sale w/ Legacy Advisors

Speaker A: It's not about, like, going through and then choosing to pay something when you could do it on your own. It's really just going through and choosing to have a higher overall outcome, giving away a very small portion of that outcome and netting more money than you would have if you did it on your own.

Speaker B: Welcome to Business Refocused, a, uh, podcast about the people, decisions, and strategies behind building a successful business. Each week we talk with leaders and operators about what they're learning, what's working, and the challenges that come with growth. I'm Lindsay Sexton, and I'm happy to introduce you to my co host, who just so happens to be my mom, Kerri Wallace. Let's get into it. Hey, mom, how's it going?

Speaker C: I am having a fantastic start to the day, I will tell you, after, like, nine straight weeks of travel, waking up in my own house, being in my own office, looking out my own view. I'm not going to lie, it's pretty nice, Lindsay. Like, this is the way I want to start every week. That's the goal, my friend. That's my goal.

Speaker B: Well, I feel like we have to maybe say no to some travel then, if you'd like to, uh, do that. And I don't know that you'd like to say no to travel, so I'm not sure how that's going to work for you.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love that. You just bring me right back down to reality. Isn't that great? Just. Can't you just say, we're happy to have you home? That would be the nicest thing to say.

Speaker B: Happy to have you home.

Speaker C: I am actually really excited, though. I, um, I love what we do, I gotta tell you. I love what we do. I love that we get to do it together. But what makes it even better is when we get to do it with people I absolutely know like and trust. And today is one of those days. Um, I'm super excited to welcome two really good friends and two amazing people. Mike Ahlmberg and Max Olson of Legacy Advisors. Thanks for joining us today.

Speaker D: Thank you. Thank you, Lindsay. It's great to see you both.

Speaker C: Yeah. Last time I saw both of you in person, it was not the best weather day. And we decided to go on a boat where my husband massively got you soaked in a, um, rough waters of Hilton Head. So I don't know, man. I don't know that that is the best thing in the world. Maybe I can get you to come to Charleston and we'll. We'll try a redo on that one.

Speaker D: What do you think that's an easy pitch, Carrie? We'll, we'll be there.

Speaker A: I was looking for a water theme park type type event, so I got it. So we're good.

Speaker C: So funny. My husband, uh, says all the time, man, they were really good sports in that day. I'm like, yeah, they really were because we definitely soaked them. It's pretty funny. It's almost like a hazing. Right? So anyway, but it's great to see both of you. I hope you guys are doing well. And, um, I'd love to just hear you guys say, how are things going? How are things going in the market? And then I'd love to, I'd love to dive in. And a couple questions, if you don't mind.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Mike. Um, I can start and then you can kind of fill in.

Speaker D: Yeah, sounds great.

Speaker A: How are we doing?

Speaker C: Great.

Speaker A: Uh, we, uh, are now, uh, a little bit over three. Three years since our first transaction closed. We've done 49 since then. Uh, we've filled out a pretty fantastic team. So I feel like every day our process is getting better and better. It's really fun going through them doing it. It's a special moment in time for people's lives. And I think we're doing it right, the right way. Uh, we're building it the right way. And I'm proud of what we're going through and then building and it's been a blast so far.

Speaker D: Yeah, I agree with everything Max said. Uh, it's super rewarding. I mean, Carrie and Lindsay, we've talked about this in the past. When you work with a family owned business. We've had some clients that have, you know, they're on third generation, over 100-year-old agencies. It's just, it's really special kind of being a part of that for them and knowing that you got them a better deal than they, they'd get otherwise. Setting up their kids and their grandkids, it's, it's super rewarding. I don't know how else to say. It's, it's hard for sure, but it's, it's a lot of fun.

Speaker C: I feel the same way. I feel like you enter the life of someone and, um, are able to bring your skill set to change the trajectory of what they might get if, whether or not, if you weren't there with them. You know, I feel like that's kind of what we do as well. And, um, I actually want to talk about something because your other partner, Matt, did a post on LinkedIn and it was it was perfect, actually. It said, you know, we had an agency owner this, that engage with us. That might be the most financially sound organization, most financially adept person, all their numbers are together. He understands his business, he understands what drives the value of his agenc agency. But he still chose to use you guys. He still chose to engage a broker. Um, that is impressive. And it might, some people might actually find that hard to believe. Why do you think he did. He made that decision and why do you think that's an important decision to make?

Speaker D: I think there's a couple of reasons, uh, someone would want to work with an advisor or broker, investment bank or whatever, whatever you want to call us. Yeah, for me, if I was selling my business, I think probably the most important thing is knowing that you're, you made the right decision. At the end of the day, it's one thing to say I got more money or I picked a better partner, but I'm very much someone that thinks about all options and I want to know they're all out in front of me and I want to know I turned over every single stone possible. And you can do that on your own without representation. But it's really hard. I mean, you, our sophisticated clients could go on Google and they could say, hey, who are the top 10 most acquisitive agencies in 2026 so far? And you know, you could, you could run a process on your own, probably have a good outcome. But to, you know, to really look at the 60 or 70 backed, you know, PE backed agencies that are out there and get a feel for them and make the right decision while you're running the business, it's, I think it's almost impossible to carve out that time to do that and make the headspace to do that. So for me, I, I tend to lean more towards the, I'm confident that I made the right decision that, you know, there's the, there's the. Did I make, uh, was this as lucrative as possible for me when I sold my business? That, yeah, that's a huge important factor to it too. But to me, I, I just, I see a lot of value in just knowing that you made the right call and you talk to all the right people at the end of the day.

Speaker A: Yeah. And also just, you don't know what you don't know. Um, so that's a big part of it. It's like, are the adjustments that I think are fair? Would everyone else believe that they're fair? Uh, if I went through and then approached 20 buyers, should I approach 22. And one of the last two would have been the one that would have given me 10% more. Just making sure that you feel confident with everything's really important. And also just, I think for that specific case and most, pretty much all of our clients, if they come to the realization that, like, any fee that's going through and getting paid, they're getting a multiple of that back, and a higher purchase price makes the decision a lot easier. So, uh, it's not about, like, going through and then choosing to pay something when you could do it on your own. It's really just going through and choosing to have a higher overall outcome, giving away a very small portion of that outcome and netting more money than you would have if you did it on your own while feeling more confident about it.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, Max, I know you've been through the process, so, I mean, you both, you both said things. Number one. Um, it's a big volume of work to do, number one, and you're trying to do it while you're running your business and want to be running it at its peak. But talk to me, Max, about the emotional roller coaster of weighing all these options while you're trying to do that. I mean that even from your own perspective of when you sold your agency, I mean, what is. What. Where does that factor into this whole thing?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I, I think your point is very valid. It's a incredible emotional experience. Like, a lot of times it's the financial piece of it. Like, am, um, I getting a good offer? Is somebody taking advantage of me in some way? Do I feel confident about that? Is my team going to be taken care of? Because I've built a great team. I want to make sure they're in a good spot. Uh, is my legacy going to get destroyed in my community? Because I've built a really great reputation. I don't want someone else to go through and damage it. And there's also the identity piece. Right. Like a lot of agency owners, they've been an agency owner almost all of their entire professional working life. They've never done anything different than that. Sometimes they're even thinking about retirement right afterwards. Those are big changes. Um, and they're all kind of happening at the same time. Navigating, um, those are important. Also, just being aware that they're going through that in the first place, um, trying to empathize for our clients is a really important thing, uh, which I, uh, think we have a unique spot in the market just based off of our prior experience and make sure that we Build that into our process, uh, and make sure that they're having the best outcome and best experience possible.

Speaker C: Well, I think it's more than unique. You know, we get to work with a lot of agency owners that can't picture themselves doing anything else. And when you can work with people that not only are doing something else, but doing something else inside an industry that might have felt like the period at the end of the sentence when it was actually just the beginning of something else has to be pretty cool for agency owners to see. But that empathetic side of listen, the dollars and cents and the hard facts are the hard facts. And maybe you didn't have as many options or maybe you didn't look as many things, that's ok. But if someone doesn't get the empty side of this, it can really make you regret your decision. And really choosing the wrong, the wrong, uh, day two partner could be one of the worst things you can do. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah. On our end, we typically go through and then reach out to our clients periodically, at least like once a year or so, um, and we check in, how are things going? Uh, and that's important because it also drives a lot of our, like, uh, decision making today. Right. When we go through and call somebody a year or two years down the road, we want them to say positive things. Um, if they don't, then maybe we didn't go through and help them as much as we could have. So far I think we've been in a really good spot with all of our clients. But, uh, it's really important that uh, as everything kind of progresses, uh, we keep going through and getting positive feedback from our clients.

Speaker B: So I'd love to ask, when you work with an agency and take them to market, what types of agencies are you typically finding as the buyers? Is it, oh, is it another agency? Is it a large, um, they're called large buyers. Right. Is it a large buyer that's like PE backed, like. Or is it a mix? Right. And how does that process work of like matchmaking? Right. That's essentially what you're doing. You're matchmaking agencies together.

Speaker D: Sure. Yeah. So Lindsay, I would say the overwhelming majority of buyers for our clients are PE backed agencies for a couple of reasons. Um, one, they have, they have deep pockets and you know, as you're thinking about selling your business, getting a good amount of money, you know, it doesn't have to be the most, but something that makes sense is, is extremely important. But what we found is a lot of the PE backs, buyers that are out there are, they're in growth mode, they're looking to grow, they're looking obviously grow their financial statements, but they're looking for good people too. And a lot of our clients have been, you know, late 30s, early 40s even, you know, people in their 50s and 60s that have a ton of Runway left and they want to be there and they want to grow and they want to take these, you know, regional manager positions in these organizations and grow long term. And in these P backed agencies it's a lot easier to do that because they're looking to fill those positions versus something that might be public and more established. Now there's definitely a, um, definitely a time where we have a client that wants someone more established. Maybe they write big commercial policies and they just want that cache of a large brand because it's going to help them win accounts and stuff like that. So that can make sense too. But I would say, you know, a lot of our clients, they're looking to grow, they're looking to take some chips off the table because they know they've built something that's really valuable and they want some liquidity to, you know, just live a better lifestyle. But they want to grow and they want to stay in insurance because it's their identity. Like you already, you already hit on and these growth minded PE backed agencies, it's, it's a great home for you know, that type of client. So the, you know, that's been, I would say the overwhelming majority of where our clients have gone so far.

Speaker A: Yeah, the one thing to add there too, like on our end, we're Switzerland, we're indifferent to who they go through and choose. As a buyer we just want them to feel confident on who they choose. So it's really common for us to go through and then include both individual or buyers like the agencies down the street as well as private equity backed, uh, agencies as well as publicly traded companies, uh, as well. That way they get to perspective. And we've had clients that have gone through and then chose, chosen to sell to individual agencies because they thought that was the right choice for them, which we fully support. Um, it's really about just going through and getting a really good feel for like exactly what is it that our clients are looking for in the first place and then putting them in front of the right groups so they can hit both their cultural like day two, uh, type expectations and also their financial goals too. Yeah.

Speaker D: And we've been very surprised and so have our clients when it comes down to it, who they end up who they end up working with. Like, you know, we've had clients that say, hey, you know, there was this large organization that I have, you know, a couple friends that sold to and I really like what I hear about them and have a great meeting with them. And then they talk to a really early stage firm and turns out they want their fingerprints all over something. They want to help it grow and, and take a bunch of equity in that organization. And that works out great. But you need the perspective of having all those different meetings and asking the same questions to different groups and hearing different responses, because that's how you choose ultimately what you want for you and your team.

Speaker A: We've had clients that have gone through and basically said, oh, uh, this is going to be the person that is going to win this contest. We know it right off the bat, this is it. And as they go through the process, they learn other opportunities. And I didn't know that this existed. Yeah, this is actually a lot better than what I was originally thinking and I would have been happy there. But I'm ecstatic about this other opportunity. That's always fun to see.

Speaker D: It very rarely happens when the one they think they want to choose coming in ends up being that group. Sometimes it does.

Speaker B: Do you guys have a special number of buyers that you recommend someone talk to just so they can learn the market through the process?

Speaker A: So I think what the smallest amount of groups that we've gone to for a client was three. Because they were hyper focused, they knew exactly what they wanted, and if they didn't get that on the cultural side, nothing else mattered. Um, the highest has been well into like the high 20s. We have one now that basically will probably go through and then reach out to over 40 different groups. Um, you usually will curate it down a fair amount. Again, like, we try to figure out what do they want first, and we want to make sure that we're not wasting their time. They're not wasting their own time either.

Speaker D: Same for the buyers. Not, you know, not just the client. Like, we don't, we don't want to waste the buyer's time, but we need to make sure that our client gets a good enough feel for what's out there. And the competitive dynamic obviously is huge. You need a couple of people at the table. Ideally you have a couple great offers and then you can go back to your. Your favorite one.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I would assume if you're talking to three buyers versus 20 to maybe even 40 buyers, the timeline from contacting you guys in order to help to Actually selling your agency probably differs quite a bit. Is that. Would that be correct?

Speaker A: It can. It's not as. It's not as big of a difference as you'd expect, though. Um.

Speaker B: Oh, really?

Speaker A: I think the, the fastest anyone's gone through from, like, the time that they said, yes, let's go through and then go to market to the time that they closed was exactly four months or maybe four months in a day. Um, it can go longer than that. Um, most of the time. That basically lengthens, uh, the process is the time where they're going through and they know what their agency is worth now because we went through evaluation with them, but they don't know what they're going to do next. Um, sometimes that's like a few days where they say, this makes sense, let's move forward. Other times they're doing the introspection and figuring out, like, could I, could I go through and then do something else? Could I retire? Is this the right time? We never want anyone to feel rushed, uh, at all through that process. It's obviously a really big decision. So that's where, like, we had one client that we met in October of 2023 that closed this last April. Um, and this last April would have. Was the right time for them to go through and close last October wasn't the right time for them to go through and look at things. Um, um, so we're just happy that it got the right outcome.

Speaker C: So what about, um, you know, you get to talk to a lot of people and some people just were testing the waters. They're not 100% sure if it's the right time for them. How do you help someone determine that? Like, what are, what are the things you put them through to see is this really the right time for you, or should you do X, Y or Z and come back? What does that process look for you guys?

Speaker D: So typically when we meet agency owners, we just talk to them. We get to, you know, get a feel for who they are and what they like to do in their business and what they don't like to do. And potentially, you know, why are they even exploring this idea? Um, and then from there, if they want to hear from us, we love educating people on what the process would look like, both with us, but just in general if you're going to sell your business. So we typically walk them through kind of what the process would look like. And like Max said, it, it typically starts with evaluation. Um, right, because if, if you don't know what your starting point is, then how do you know if now's the time or you have to grow for a few more years, or maybe, maybe you'd be ecstatic with the valuation that you had five years ago and, you know, you're definitely ready to move forward. So we start by giving them a range of, of what we think a buyer would pay, uh, if, if they were to go to market, and then we kind of take it from there.

Speaker C: Do you have certain things that, if this exists, they're just not ready and they need. Like, uh, are there, is there a list of things that would cause someone to say, you probably need to hit the pause button and maybe now's not the time, or may there aren't. But if you could give an idea, because I would love for the listeners to know, like, hey, I'm thinking about this, but are there things I could do to prepare myself to be more ready for this process? What advice would you give?

Speaker A: I could answer that real quick. So I think understanding what your levers are that you can pull is really, really important. Usually, um, at the end of evaluation process, somebody knows what those levers are. Um, and they could be different in different circumstances. If you've got five offices and realistically you only need two of them, that's not something that we can just financially engineer away and then you're getting all the credit for it. Uh, if you know another agency down the street that, uh, the two of you combined and you get like a lift on commissions with a certain carrier, um, that's something that maybe you'd want to go through and look at doing. Uh, if your revenue, uh, per employee is a lot lower than where it should be, then maybe it's something that you grow another year or sometimes only six months, and then just don't hire anyone new and then you get to where you want to go to and get, get to. So a lot of it's basically just going through and then just giving them the knowledge and just even the knowledge of what is your agency worth today? Um, because that drives a lot of it. Uh, some people think their agency's worth $6 million. Uh, we had won like last week. They thought their agency would have been worth like 6 to 7 million dollars. And it's realistically worth 12 to 13. They didn't really anticipate going to market anytime soon, but now they're considering it. Whether they do or not, that's up to them. And we have others that basically have a completely different valuation expectation. We've had it where people think it's 10 times but it's 10 times revenue. It's like, that's not what it is. Um, so if you're trying to get to a certain target, like, you're gonna have to grow into it and like, this is how you go through and then do it. And this is what the timeline will look like if you did.

Speaker C: Oh, Max.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. They're in different positions, too. Like I would say most of our clients have had really, really good businesses and, you know, they weren't forced to have a fire sale. And they have time to get out ahead and make change, plan and do all the right stuff. Some of, um, them, you know, you might have a health scare or you just realize now's the time, or I want to get in a different industry and you have less time to, to operate. But I think your expectations have to have to change accordingly with that too. So, again, the valuation is a great spot because we're going to give them fair advice. We're not going to, we're not going to tell them that the business is worth more than it is.

Speaker A: Just

Speaker D: it's impossible to plan that way. And we're not like that.

Speaker C: So it's honestly why, you know, I think everyone should have a health checkup of their agency. You should know what the value of your agency is far before you ever want to do anything. Whether you want to acquire an agency, whether you want to add producers, whether you want to grow, whether you eventually want to exit. And having that health checkup and knowing those levers can help you build your business in a way that positions you to have so many different options. So I couldn't agree more. And knowing the levers and understanding the levers, I think is super critical because just getting the number without someone explaining to you what could happen to those numbers if you pulled a certain lever is not the same as actually understanding what those levers do. So that's part of the process, I assume.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And sometimes, I mean, we're talking massive differences. Like, you do these certain things, wait a year, and your business is worth 60% more than it is today. Like anyone would be foolish to go through and then go through and sell at that point in time, unless there was something like a health issue or something like that. So.

Speaker C: So let me ask you a question, because you guys have been doing this during a time where the market shifted a bit. So we were in a soft market, we went to a hard market. It's starting to soften. We have AI, you know, making everybody think about how we're going to do the work. What do you guys see happening in the marketplace right now as a result of moving from a hard to a soft or the surge of AI? Do you see anything tangible? And I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Speaker D: I'd say on the hard market versus soft market, yes, you're absolutely right. I think depending on the specific geography, it can be more or less. And we've had a couple clients, uh, that were either focused on, you know, big coastal buildings and stuff like that, where we've seen it even, even more so. Um, I would take those as kind of one off cases. Like that's a specific risk. It's going to be underwritten accordingly. Um, I would say in general, I'd say the valuations are still really, really good. Um, I know interest rates are higher now than they were during COVID when money was free, but they're still relatively pretty good. Uh, and valuations are really high. I would say for commercial lines focused agencies, they're as high as we've ever seen them. For good businesses that have some scale and have good leadership and they're growing, they're, they're fantastic. I would say there's been a little bit of a pullback on the personal line side. AI is driving a lot of that carrier. You're absolutely right. I have no idea what AI's role in personal lines insurance is going to look like five, ten years from now.

Speaker C: Listen, if you did, you'd be a very rich man and I'd be a very rich woman. I would love to know the answer to that question. Question. Right, agreed.

Speaker D: Agreed. I, I, I know it is, it is definitely causing some pause from, from certain buyers. And I would, you know, there's, there's, call it one to two turns of EBITDA different, you know, versus a personal lines from, uh, a personal lines versus commercial lines insurance agency. I would say right now, all else being equal.

Speaker C: So hang on, let me just translate that. So if an agency is commanding, let's say 12 times EBITDA, a personal lines agent, a commercial lines agency, same makeup, same risk, same whatever they are commanding 12 times a personal lines heavy would be commanding somewhere between a 10 to 11 times.

Speaker D: Yeah, ah, probably closer to 10. Um, and the other, the other piece there too is, there's a lot of buyers that have been really acquisitive on the personal line side that have just said, hey, we're going to pause. If it's not, you know, at least 50, 50 commercial personal line split, we're just, you know, we're trying to acquire more commercial lines business at this point. So they've just, they've just stepped back completely.

Speaker C: So have, have you had agents come to you that are over the 5050 mark? Let's say they're 70, 30. And your advice is go build your commercial so you would be able to command a higher price. Is that, is that something you see will be in the future or is happening right now?

Speaker A: That's, that's a long term play. You've got a couple million dollars of revenue and it's mostly personal lines for you to get a couple million dollars of revenue, that's commercial lines. That's like, that's changing your people, that's changing your marketing, that's changing everything. Um, uh, just because somebody doesn't go through and then have like a high commercial lines, uh, percentage of their book, it doesn't mean that they can't go through and have a fantastic outcome. It just is different than what it would be than commercial lines. But it's also a lot better than if they were a non standard auto agency too. Um, uh, and their EBITDA multiples are still much better than most other industries. So if they're 45% uh, commercial lines, could it make sense to hold off and get that number up a little bit or do a tuck in acquisition for a smaller commercial book? Yes, um, it's more if somebody basically comes to us and they say like hey I'm five or 10 years out, like what would you do? If you or me, that's when that, that makes total sense like invest in commercial lines, there's going to be more value, value there.

Speaker C: It's funny, this topic itself was such a hot topic at a recent mastermind that we were at because there's a whole group of people thinking about, you know, I can see in the next six to 10 years that I might be ready to. And I'm trying to think strategically how do I build my business to have as many options as possible. But we're sitting in a time where it's so uncertain. Like we got the first indicator of. It's possible that personal lines might take a couple turns and uh, we don't know. Like we don't know. It could be at the end of the year they're commanding the same multiples as they are today. But it was the first indicator that, that things might be shifting. So it's an interesting business to be in. No question about it. The headline is these agencies are still very, very valuable. And it's one of probably your Most valuable assets. If you're an agency owner, going back to that LinkedIn, you know, message, thinking about doing it on your own, to me, seems super overwhelming. And I think, you know, oftentimes we get to talk to agencies that have a lot of regrets and. And I never hear the regret being that, um, you went too fast or you did. Like, I always think it's what you didn't do, not what you did do. So I would love to. I'd love to hear your advice. If someone is out there and they're thinking about that, what advice would you give to each of those owners on how they. They chart their path forward and think about the future of their agency? Mike, I'm going to start with you.

Speaker D: Sure. Again, we're super educational. We like doing it, and I think it's the right way to do it. So, yeah, the valuation is one piece that answers a lot of questions. Even if someone doesn't say, like, oh, I don't care about the financial outcome that comes out in the valuation, and that's okay. But there's a lot of questions when you're thinking about just who's the right partner for my business. How do I. One thing I think we do a really good job at is preparing our clients for the conversations with the buyers. Not that they have anything to hide, more so that they can get a really good feel for who they'd want to work with. Like, you know, what do you do with branding when you change the agency management system? How would this work for, you know, how would servicing look to my clients? They're used to this currently. Would it look like inside of your infrastructure? So I think it's really just talking through the entire process in detail many times throughout our, our engagement and just making sure they're, you know, they know how things are going to play out as. As best as we possibly can and make sure they have all the cards out, you know, uh, in front of them. That's super important.

Speaker C: How about you, Max? What advice would you give to someone if they're thinking about this? Like, how should they be weighing how they move forward?

Speaker A: So a lot of it's just tied to, like, what are they looking to go through and then get. So oftentimes there's somebody like, so in my case, for example, like, what drove my decision to go through on the market sell? I knew that if I sold my agency, my family would be set financially and we would be good. Like, things could get better a little bit worse. Like, it's fine, like, we'd Be fine if I didn't sell the agency, the answer is probably we would be fine. But it wasn't definitely anymore. Um, just based off certain risk, etc. So that's what was important to me. But that's. Can be different for other people. Um, I think no matter what, whether they use like an M and a advisor or they. Or they don't, which we suggest that people do, whether it's us or somebody else, they should have a competitive process. They should go through and meet multiple buyers. Um, when we reference like the, the three example, like, that's kind of minimal. Um, it should be more than that in most, in most scenarios, especially if you don't have the context of, like, how the different buyers would. Would work after the close, if they're competitive for your type of, uh, of mix of personal lines versus commercial, et cetera. Uh, so having good competitive process, getting really educated, uh, doing reference checks. What is it like afterwards for the people that actually went through and then sold? Because that might be different than what the guy that's selling you to come over to them may say it is. Or guy or girl. Um, so I think as much education as you can go through and have, it's really helpful. It's the biggest point in someone's life financially, most of the time. Um, so, like, every hour that's spent, it's. It's worth it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, let's talk about that there. I have one more question. On your average engagement, how many hours does your team spend on that agency's process? I'm only. I can ask that because I actually had an inside look on this. Uh, so, um, I would love for you guys to tell me, how many hours of time do you think it takes to get someone from the beginning, beginning to the end, successfully? Do you guys know the number?

Speaker D: I have no idea. I can tell you some, some deals take three or four times as. As much.

Speaker C: Oh, wow.

Speaker D: For a lot of reasons. But there, there's a lot of variability, I would say collectively between all of our team members. Probably over a thousand.

Speaker A: Into the hundreds. Yeah, into the hundreds. Like, like high hundreds at a minimum. And then a lot of them are well over a thousand.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: And it's because. Yeah, I mean, you guys take great care. You're on every single call. You're. You're doing a debrief on every single call. You're walking them through due diligence. Like it's a, It's a different kind of engagement, and I think it's a very personal engagement. And why it varies is because the clients vary what they need and what their process is. When you were talking earlier, Max, I was thinking to myself, one of the biggest mistakes that an agency owner can make is only talking to one. Like, they pick up the phone, they're having a bad day, someone calls them and says, hey, I'd like to buy your agency. And that's the only person they engage with through the entire process. What a miss, right? Like, what a mess. There's.

Speaker A: Most of the time they're just. They're just picking up a call because they're getting hit up by email phone all the time. And nine times out of 10, the people that are calling them are not the groups that they want to be talking to in the first place. Um, or if they are, they're probably not going to give the same offer as if they were involved in a competitive process.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, of course. Because if they think they're the only game in town, they're not going to give you their best price. In fact, they don't need to give you their best price. And you won't know the questions to ask to make sure that they do give you, because the fact that no one else is involved will never actually elicit that response. So.

Speaker D: Exactly.

Speaker C: Super interesting. If you're sitting. If you were selling your house and it was a seller's market, you would never dream of not having a real estate agent walk you through that process. And it is a seller's market if I've ever seen one, in the world of, um, independent insurance agencies. So why in the world you wouldn't have representation through that process? Makes no sense to me whatsoever. But I hope the people listening today got a feel for what does that look like? What are some things you could expect? And. And they think really long and hard about that because it's so valuable. And what a great job you guys have done for many of the agencies that I know and never heard a bad thing, which is fantastic. And, uh, I hope that people listening learn something today for sure.

Speaker A: Thanks for the kind words. Definitely appreciate it.

Speaker D: Thank you very much.

Speaker A: Yeah, we've never heard anything bad about you either. Here.

Speaker C: That's funny. All right, man, well, thanks for being our guest.

Speaker B: Thanks so much for tuning in to the Insurance Refocus podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please be sure to hit subscribe and leave us a review so you'll never miss us. Want to learn more about how Agency Focus can help you grow your agency? Head to agency-focus.com or email Carrie directly at carriegency-focus.com if you need to get in touch with me, feel free to shoot me an email@lindsayagency uh-focus.com thanks so much for tuning in. We'll see you next week.