Guiding, Not Informing

Speaker A: What we need to do is guide, just don't inform. Right. And I think that too often brands get kind of in the, um, trap of, um, communicating at, um, consumers, um, instead of really making sure that they understand how the brand uniquely delivers against the consumer need and experience.

Speaker B: Building great experiences. Revolutionize your business. Building great experiences. Innovative strategies. Building great experiences Elevate for your customers. Like, comment and subscribe.

Speaker C: Hey, folks, welcome to another episode of the Building Great Experiences podcast. With me, I've got Rob Horton. Uh, Rob leads marketing at, ah, the YMCA of Greater Charlotte, and, uh, is a friend of mine. We've worked together for a couple of years in prior life, um, but today we're going to be talking about, um, customer experience and marketing, the intersection of those two things and where we think it's going with all the interesting things happening in the horizon. So, Rob, welcome to the show.

Speaker A: Awesome. Thanks, Drew. I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to spending some time together.

Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. Um, so, uh, as I mentioned, Rob and I, we've worked together, uh, for a number of years. And, um, so I know a little bit of his origin story, but I'm always good with. How'd you get started? How'd you get into this, like, just so people can kind of get to know you a little bit more?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I am probably one of those rare occurrences where you. Where I'm actually getting to practice my degree. So my undergrad degree is in marketing. Um, and, um, I started in consumer packaged goods. Uh, right. So I started with, um, Nestle, um, and worked for them, um, on, uh, I was in the prepared foods division. Right. So this is French bread, pizza, Stouffer's entrees, all of that good, fun stuff.

Speaker C: Cool.

Speaker A: Um, then I left Nestle for a hot minute and went to go work for the Coca Cola company. Um, and I did that in Atlanta for a couple years. Decided I missed Nestle, uh, so went back for, ah, a second tour of duty, um, and then decided to leave consumer packaged goods. And I wanted to do that because I wanted to work in an industry where marketing wasn't an institution. Um, where marketing had to prove its worth. Uh, So I spent 10 years in, uh, architectural coatings, which is a super fancy name for paint. Um, and, uh, then, uh, after 10 years doing that, decided I wanted to see what the other side of marketing was like. Uh, so moved here to Charlotte, uh, to work for an advertising agency. So worked, uh, for Ray Ward, uh, for about five years on the client side of the business, uh, running their, uh, Client practice. And then after that I went into economic development. So the Charlotte Regional Business alliance was being formed as the combination of the Chamber and the Charlotte Regional Partnership. So I was their first cmo, uh, um, in that role, uh, and recently just took the job at the Y, uh, almost a year ago heading up, uh, marketing for them.

Speaker C: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Um, well you've got a wide array of marketing expertise, which is awesome. I um, it's funny like a lot of times I thought, you know, folks I talk to on the show, they've kind of got this like very erratic path. Right. And like I love that you're like you've kind of, it's been really, you're continuing to get better at marketing, continue to kind of widen your capability side there. Um, I'm curious, like just out of my own fascination.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: What was the biggest difference between consumer uh, product goods and kind of going into more of the, you know, call it B2B. And then you know, now you're in sort of this internal in house marketing team. That's very different. Right. The why is very different than cpg.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: What are the, I don't know, what are the biggest takeaways or kind of differences?

Speaker A: Sure. So I mean I think that what part of it is uh, when you're working in a business that has both B2B and B2C, um, you have to remind yourself of um, the differences of that target audience. Right. And so a B2B audience is much uh, more fact driven and evidence based. Um, where you know, B2C, um, you can uh, it's a little bit more personal, uh, emotional and influence based. Right. So um, what was interesting about working in uh, architectural coatings is that there, there are so many different aspects um, of marketing, um, that you have to, or levers that you have to pull um, in order to influence the consumer. Right. And so um, the display and the collateral are incredibly important. Right. Because they're inspiring um, that consumer to take on their next project. Um, and so we did a lot of work around the consumer and you know, I think that's been the very consistent thread drew through my career which is um, you really have to fundamentally start with an understanding of your target audience. Um, and I know that you and I have spent at um, least a few engagements together really, um, diving in deep and kind of understanding, you know, what are those target audience motivations, um, what, you know, where are they looking for um, their information and you know, what are their trigger points and what are those influen areas where you can influence them, um, and drive preference for your brand.

Speaker C: Yeah man, um, you just sparked a bunch of thoughts, but I'll kind of keep it focused. Um, what you just hit on I think is really important as we think about the future of customer experience and marketing and specifically like the understanding of what your customer needs and wants and what their goals are. Um, but then providing them with, I think you touch on, you know, the, the way that you engage with that customer has to be something that's differentiated and needs to be unique and needs to be memorable. Um, you know we, we did an engagement earlier this year with the home services company and it was all about like the in store experience. Right. Um, if I'm a contractor and I'm going into the store, how do you like catch your attention really quickly and then like educate them and give them the confidence that this product is, or these products are like really high quality and really sort of um, going to solve their problem. Right. And um, it's a different way of sort of approaching things and I think a lot of times right now, and I love your thoughts here, like as you look at the landscape and obviously AI is starting to gobble everything up. Right. In the marketing universe, um, it's interesting to think about like how do you separate yourself? And I think a big part of that is going to probably be um, having a differentiated experience and truly understanding your customer. But I'd love to hear your thoughts like if, if you agree or disagree, if you've got other opinions on kind of where you think this is all going.

Speaker A: No, I, I, I think that, you know, we'll start with just one aspect of um, AI and what it can do. Right. So um, first and foremost, you know, the consumer needs to feel like you understand them.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And um, with the uh, with the power of a really good um, CRM system and really kind of understanding um, how the consumer is choosing to interact with you, um, that helps you build that knowledge, um, around what are their needs and wants and what, you know, what can you as a brand uniquely deliver for them. So I think that you know, where, what we're really excited about is that uh, this idea and um, you know, I give um, you a lot of credit for this. Um, it was one of the uh, insights that came out of the latest batch of research that we did together, which was that what we need to do is guide, just don't inform. Right. And I think that too, too often brands get kind of in the um, trap of communicating at um, consumers, um, instead of really making sure that they understand how the brand uniquely delivers against the consumer need and experience.

Speaker C: Yeah, the, yeah, the guidance piece is so important because especially when you think about, right. That it's getting noisier and noisier and noisier and people don't know what to do or where to focus or like how to, you know, what brand can serve their needs and, and you know, and is a brand they can trust. And I think like the guiding them piece of it is so important. And the way that you kind of guide people, it's also like tailoring it based on like not everybody is wanting the same thing. Right. Uh, they don't want to be guided in the same way. So you have to kind of provide that almost like, hey, you know we're, we can if you want like the whole sort of breakdown of how to do it and we're going to hold your hand every step of the way. We can do that. Right. And then if you want just the sort of like get out of the way and just give me like the three options and let me pick and go uh, along my journey, like you can do that too. It's like, it's creating the. Not just like guided journey, but it's like the paths for the different types of consumers and what they care about.

Speaker A: Right, right. I think that in this latest role, um, nowhere is uh, that more evident for me. Uh, so you know, we are really fortunate here in Charlotte, um, to have a. Why that um, has 14, um, center locations, three program centers and two overnight camps. So if you are a resident of Charlotte, you um, have a Y that offers you many different um, options um, by which to engage the. So the upside of that is you have a lot of options. The downside of it is it's overwhelming. Right. And so how do you really help um, the consumer differentiate, uh, or our members differentiate on what are those solutions kind of within the why that best fits what they're looking for, um, for their own personal goals, um, in you know, health and well being. And I, uh, think that I'm really looking forward to our next engagement together because I know that you guys are going to really help us um, with a uh, really useful tool that's going to help guide that journey, um, in a way that allows uh, the customer to give us some information that we might not have asked for previously. But um, by providing that information we're able to provide a little bit more of a personalized experience.

Speaker C: Yeah. So um, one of the things that I talk with my team about a lot we've Kind of talked about too is um, we now have like a greater level of intelligence, you know, uh, about our customers, new data that we can collect about them as they're engaging in these sort of guided journeys, right? And what's cool is historically like before, like literally like two years ago, a year ago, uh, you had to do this kind of very logic based. If they do this, then do this, right? If they pick this uh, package or product or service, then we're going to show them this kind of next step in the journey. And what's really, really cool is now you're starting to see like more of these agentic experiences where you have kind of an AI agent that's trained on your knowledge, your data, your information, right? And is able to more intelligently decide like, okay, based on these different inputs, I'm going to guide this person in a different way. Which is where you start to get to this world of like hyper personalization, right? It's like more than like um, like classic marketing. You have kind of audiences or sort of segments, right? And like that's kind of like the general way that people have thought about customer um, and for the long, for a long time. And you've got like demographic data, right, From a graphic data. And you're sort of like trying, you're kind of like guessing a lot of times, right? You're sort of, you do the research, you do the analysis, but like you're still kind of like, I think, I think this is what they want, right? I think this is what they're going for. Um, but what's really interesting now is we're starting to see this trend of um, like we're doing a project at the moment and it's collecting new information about the conversations that customers are having with this particular brand's um, digital assets. And it's helping us understand their intent, it's helping us understand their sentiment, it's helping us understand like who they are and their role and their kind of like what they care about. And you're starting to build this like different profile of this person where you can truly recommend to them and guide them to something that's like, this is for you individual, not like you, the audience, you kind of general bucket of customer, right? Which is really cool. And it opens up a whole new world of opportunity as a marketing professional where you're like, wow, okay, we don't, we don't have to just sort of like throw a dart and hope that we're hitting the right mark. It's like we know what they want. Because they're. Because we have all this new data that we didn't have before, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, and I, And I think that's a. I mean, I think that's a really good point, Drew. I mean, what's interesting is, right. I mean, if you look at the evolution, right, of marketing over the years, right? So you start with mass marketing, right? It was, it was brands to consumers, and it was. Didn't make, you know, you had a target audience, but you didn't. You kind of understood them maybe demographically, then you evolved to kind of adding psychographic attributes, um, to them. Um, but now we're kind of, with the amount of information, um, that we can learn, um, about our target audiences, we can, uh, segment those audiences, uh, even further. Right. And, um, really make sure that we're delivering a highly personalized experience, uh, that they value. Uh, because if they feel like they're, um, being led through a journey without much choice, um, that doesn't, uh, that, uh, you lose authenticity really quickly, right? And so the tools that, you know, AI can give you, um, and being able to do that, um, and to allow for that hyper personalization, I think will be, uh, really exciting, uh, to see what happens.

Speaker C: Totally agree. Yeah. I, um. You mentioned CRM a few minutes ago, and one of the things that I'm curious to hear your perspective is, um, there's kind of this, like, very rapidly evolving way of approaching CRM, right? Um, like we use HubSpot, and HubSpot has this really interesting thing that they've recently rolled out. It's kind of like, um, shows you more, uh, information about, like, buyer signals, but in the, like, moment by moment kind of scenario. So we've. We've got, you know, there's this new view in HubSpot where I think their AI is called Breeze is what it's called. Um, and you can. We're obviously B2B company, so you can be like, all right, these are the kind of companies that we're sort of watching and observing, basically, like, notify me when there's any kind of buying signal, right, that gives us data that we can go act upon, right? So, for example, like, do they have. They looked at the LinkedIn, you know, have they clicked on our website? Have they gone on an ad or they talked, you know, to this person. And like, you start to get this way richer data, right? And like, AI is going out and it's collecting this stuff for you and being like, hey, by the way, you know, so and so at such and such company looked at your website yesterday and then oh by the way, they like looked at your LinkedIn page. Like this is a pretty high intent customer. You should probably like talk to them. Right? Like you should probably like they seem like they're engaged. Right. They downloaded your thing. They did this, they did this. And um, it's interesting, right? Like you know, you think about not that long ago in CRM like really you just had like a lot of people. You. I remember the days where you're trying to drive this like CRM culture. Right. Like how do we get people to put the data in the system? And it was this whole exercise around like change management and whatever. And now I mean obviously that's still a thing. You want people to kind of put that information in there. But there's more of this data that's being collected automatically by these CRMs, which is really interesting. Right. And I'd be curious like how you're seeing shifts in like just generally using CRM with marketing campaigns and sort of efforts that you guys are doing.

Speaker A: Yeah. So uh, just earlier this year we um, changed our CRM uh system. So we are now in um, a version of Salesforce.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: Um, that is customized for Wise.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, but you know, after we launched it we are now linking in all of our different channels of communication into that CRM system. So to your point, like we're going to launch marketing cloud, um later this year. Um, we have um, Mowgli, which is their two way texting platform. Um, our app is um, linking to it. So uh, so that it is more. It's not requiring a heavy lift on um, our staff um, to identify kind of different changes in member patterns or um, identify member preferences because it's being fed um, through all of those systems that seamlessly kind of link in um to uh, our Salesforce platform. So we're excited, I mean we're really excited about what that's going to mean uh, because like any business, uh, you know that um, retention is probably one of the most important aspects of um, you know, making sure that your business has a very solid base. Right. And so uh, you know, as we're looking at um, member retention, um, trends and really making sure that uh, you know back to my point earlier where um, I don't think I had any appreciation for all that the Y had to offer and stuff until I started working for the. Yeah. Right. And um, so there are so many different opportunities to connect um, and to become part um, or become more integrated into the community. Um, but half of the challenge is awareness. And if you can't, um, make that connection between their behavior and a solution that we can offer, then you're missing an opportunity, um, to build a greater connectedness and hopefully, um, retain that m member longer.

Speaker C: Yeah, I, um, this is great conversation. And just a side note, um, I think like two weeks ago it was, um, Dreamforce. So Salesforce, big annual thing. And, uh, their whole thing where they're focusing on right now is Agent Force. Right. They're basically like Salesforce agents. Really. Um, cool that you guys are kind of moving into that world. Like, definitely feel like agents, um, that are trained on your data, that are sort of like focused on specific use cases that can help you better connect with your customer, is going to be really powerful. Um, so I'm curious, uh, we've covered a lot of ground already, um, who's doing this well, who's kind of investing in these areas effectively? Like, what are you seeing that's kind of like best in class?

Speaker A: Sure. So I'll give you one example that's probably, that is obvious, uh, probably to everybody that would be listening, um, which is Amazon. Right. So, you know, we have an Amazon account in our household. Um, we have Alexis in our house. And the amount of, um, personalization that, um, happens as a result of that, based on our, you know, our what we're viewing our purchase patterns, um, Amazon started kind of the, you know, suggestion, uh, the suggestive sell, um, at the end of any, um, you know, purchase. And they've just upped that game and continued to kind of build and develop it. And when, you know, when I purchased something in the past and I'm getting ready for my next cycle, I hear it on Alexa. Right. And Alexa says, um, you know, you should be ready to, you know, purchase. You know, this again. Right. So, you know, I think that, um, that is a really great, you know, they are really great example. And they're so sophisticated at doing that and really understanding their customer and understanding their buying behaviors and making meaningful suggestions. Not so I never feel like I'm being sold to on Amazon. I feel like, um, they're being helpful in that.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, a little bit closer to home. And you mentioned, um, Agent Force, uh, a few minutes ago. So, uh, when you look at the membership, health and wellness space, Equinox is actually testing Agent Force right now. And so Equinox in the, in the world of, you know, fitness, uh, is probably, is fairly high end. Right. But, um, they're also understanding that, um, that level of personalization for m their members because not Every member is the same, and not every member has the same goals. So, you know, how are they. You know, they're effectively kind of using Agent Force to help guide, um, their members, um, to the right, um, fitness solutions for them, uh, to help them achieve their goals.

Speaker C: Yeah, I, um, I think those are great examples. And I'll have to check out the Equinox one. I haven't, haven't seen it directly. Um, but a couple other sort of examples I'll offer up is, um. So there's. There's kind of the like, intelligence piece, which is where we focused a lot of our conversation on. But, um, there's also the, I think different. It's almost like we're going backwards in some ways on human connection and relationship and more like in person events and things that have started to, to come more and more to the forefront. Right. Um, I just signed up for this community, uh, called Base. Uh, they have like, I think, I don't know, eight or 10 markets in the US and it's basically this like, um, whole community around, like, in person meeting or, you know, coffees and lunches and dinners and sort of specialty events and you can kind of connect based on, you know, uh, topics and interests and things like that. I, um, think they've done a really great job of, of one using intelligence to be able to target. Like, I, you know, I've got like, ads on LinkedIn, ads on Instagram, blah, blah, blah. And then I had like, people that I know who were like, hey, Drew, you should check this thing out. And it was like very, you know, clear messaging, who is it for, you know, et cetera. But was it. What was different is, um, they. I actually had to like, talk to a person on the phone. It wasn't a zoom call, wasn't a teams call. It was like kind of a classic, like, I'm getting, you know, texted by a person and then we're like scheduling time and we're talking and I'm telling them about who I am and what I care about and whatever. And um, and then like, ultimately that fed seamlessly into this, uh, their digital experience, which is like this app that they use to. And this is not a promotion. M. I'm not getting paid to say this, but, uh, I was really impressed just generally with the kind of like moving from this personalized concierge white glove sort of like membership conversation to now the digital experience that is, um, pretty easy to use and pretty kind of seamless. And I think there's like this interesting trend that, uh, that is starting to emerge, which is, you know, how are you really tightly connecting the physical experience and the relationship, like, enabling human relationships, but also the digital side, which is like, everything just kind of happens and you don't have to, like, spend a ton of time figuring out, like, how do I use this thing, how do I connect to this person? It's just like, it just. It just works, you know? Um, so that. That's one example that comes to mind. And I, And I'm seeing this across a lot of others. It's kind of like I've referenced this company in the past, but it's like the Disney. The Disney ification, right? Like, if you. If you go to a Disney theme park or if you go on a Disney cruise or whatever, it's this, like, beautiful connection between, like, you know, your kid or you could have this really great moment with an actor right in the park. But at the same time, like, you've got the magic band or whatever, and it like, lets you just, like, walk around, do whatever, pick, pay for stuff, they know your name, whatever. Without it feeling like this invasion of privacy, and without it feeling like, how, like, why is this so hard? Which is a lot of times what ends up happening. Like, the tech doesn't seamlessly work with the kind of the service experience. So anyway, that's like, another angle that I'm seeing a lot of is, like, people are investing more and more at the intersection of digital and physical, which I think is going to become even more important, right? As. As brands and marketers think about how do you connect with your customer? It's going to be. It's going to be like, you get this intelligence, but how you leverage that intelligence should be thinking at those intersections, right? Like analog and digital.

Speaker A: Uh, really interesting. And, um, you know, Drew, I think that, uh, when, uh, uh, an onboarding experience for a member at the Y goes really well, that's exactly what happens, right? So as somebody walks into the Y and, um, engages with one of our front desk folks, um, they're taking. They're asking them before they go on a tour, what are your goals? Why are you here? What's important to you? Um, and then they are customizing that tour based on that input, and that input then becomes part of their profile. So as we are building, um, more, you, uh, know, suggestions as they're kind of continuing through their journey, it's really based on one, what they've told us, and then two, um, now we have behavior, right? And so now we're understanding a little bit more about Them because ultimately you know, at the end of the day, um, what we're trying to do as an organization is um, be that place of community and connectivity.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and that doesn't just mean um, you know, a fitness center.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: That, that means all of the other things that the Y has to offer, whether it's community well being or you know, programs and different engagements. And so that initial input in the upfront as you were, as you were talking about is very analog. Right. But it's critically important because if you don't um, have that conversation then you're never going to get really that um, depth of understanding, um, so that you can um, truly be um, helpful um, to you know, the members that you're serving.

Speaker C: I think marketing leaders in the next several years are going to, the good ones are going to be great at discerning when to have an analog experience or human moment versus when to have a digital touch. And like discerning when and how to do it in a tasteful way is I think what's going to happen make or break brands honestly. Um, because I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of companies right now that are going like all in on AI trying to do everything automated, everything digital, everything, you know, uh, AI powered, which there's a lot of benefit. But I think it's kind of this like um, diminishing returns probably. Like if you kind of over dilute your brand with like everything's fast and easy and it cheapens, it commoditizes your brand. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: But if you're like, all right, let's be really thoughtful here. Let's not just do AI stuff for AI sake. Let's think about where do we leverage AI and key moments of the journey to really make um, it frictionless, make it easy. But then let's also be really intentional about like this is a point where we need to have a human touch. Like we really need to make sure that our frontline workers are engaging with our customer in a specific way. We are, you know, on our back of house, back office people. Like we're handling things in the right way. We're. And, and to your point, like I love that you guys are investing in this. Like if I'm a, if I'm a consumer and I come in, into you know, a why and I share things about my child, about me or my preferences and then like fast forward two months later and I'm talking to somebody else and like it's like I never had that conversation. I'm gonna be like dude, why am I having to say this over again, right? But like if, if I'm talking to somebody else and they already have that information, they know those preferences. I'm be like whoa, this is pretty cool, right? And it just separates the why in my mind, right? Experientially, because I'm not, I'm um, it's more of that surprise and delight. Right. So anyway, I think that's where marketers are going to start to really have to think critically about discerning and differentiating. Like this is the moment where we really need to be like hands on. Right. Versus like this is one where we need to like make it as fast and easy as possible using technology. Um, anyway, those are, I don't know, I don't know your thoughts on that.

Speaker A: Yeah, I um, I 100 agree. I mean what's, what's really interesting right is I mean you think about all the different ways that we are connected today, right. With our digital devices or whatever that looks like. But um, loneliness is a, is at an all time high. So what does that say? You know it's, it says that the tools are useful. Right. But being connected doesn't mean that um, the human interaction isn't important. Right. And you know, finding that those uh, important points in um, any member or customer's experience where um, you know, AI should sort of play the role of identifying the preferences but it never replaces um, the human touch. And our uh, y associates. One of the things that we absolutely love about them is how committed they are to um, our members and to our centers. And uh, it's part of the reason why um, our members are so loyal and have spent so much time at the Wyeth. It's, they appreciate the people.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and the tools are just more uh, you know, enhancing that experience, not replacing it.

Speaker C: Yeah, love it. Um, so one of the things I love about the show is I try to, you know, everybody I bring in, we always try to make it like practical. Like okay, brass tacks, like what do I do? You know, like there's a lot of things and sort of strategies but making it more kind of practical, tactical. Um, so I'd be curious, like what do you think are like maybe the top two or three things that if you're a lot of people that are listening are like mid sized companies, marketing leaders, product leaders, business leaders, um, what would you advise or recommend to them as they think about um, the future of marketing and customer experience?

Speaker A: Yeah, Ah, uh, I think we touched upon one very uh, Consistently kind of through our conversation, which is have a deep understanding of the audience that you're trying to reach and how you as a brand, um, uniquely deliver um, against their wants and needs. Right. So um, finding your differentiators are incredibly important. So it doesn't make a difference what the tool is. Um, if you can't identify um, why you're different, um, than your competition to yourself, then you're never going to be able to accomplish that, um, to the audience that you're trying to reach.

Speaker C: Totally.

Speaker A: Um, two is really understanding how and where they're consuming information and putting yourself into those conversations seamlessly. Right. So uh, I think that we used to make the mistake of you know, uh, forcing um, our messaging on um, whomever uh, you know, was turning on a, uh, a channel or you know, online. Um, and that wasn't so useful, um, because in many cases nobody was, nobody was looking for that information, nobody wanted it. Um, so really understanding kind of uh, to the point that you were talking about earlier with base is understanding kind of like their buyer behavior and um, connecting with um, them when they're indicating kind of their interest in having a conversation. So I think that's um, also really important. Um, and then lastly it's, it's about authenticity. Right. Don't try to be something that you're not. Um, and you know, if, if you don't have those attributes that are, uh, you know, that your target audience wants, uh, then build them first, um, before you try to present um, yourself as a solution.

Speaker C: Yeah, those are man. Completely agree. So, so good. Um, two other things I'll add to it. So, um, I think in a world that's getting fast consumed by AI, um, and in a world where you don't know what's real and what's not. Right. I don't know if you're seeing. There's a lot of stuff on social media where it's like people are creating these crazy videos on Sora, which is like this kind of video generation tool. And it looks believable. I mean it looks like someone pulled out their iPhone and record some clip. And the only way you know it's a AI generated is got a little Sora logo in the corner but like pretty wild, right? And so um, one of the things I've been sort of suggesting to a lot of marketing leaders, uh, I talk to is like, hey, I would start to think about almost like don't polish it too much, right? Like being more real and authentic and like being obviously like human, ah, is actually an advantage I think because it's going to start to, you're going to start to see the people who are just generating mass amount of content and you know, uh, things with AI that will just, it'll just disappear into the sea of, of sameness. Right? And so, um, like things like this, right, like conversations with real people, um, having like these more like in person interactions. Like those kinds of things that are more truly authentic and they create loyalty and trust and connection I think is really, really important. So every opportunity I, I suggest like, even if you're, you know, a consumer brand, I still think there's an opportunity to be more human, right? Like put a face to the brand. Like have people right at the forefront of it. Not sort of this like faceless organization. I think. I think those days are quickly ending where it's just sort of this like we are faceless company, you know, and you're like, who's really behind this? Um, so that's one and then the other one is. I, um, think uh, it's kind of to your first point, I've um, recommended to a lot of people, like, sharpen your. If you're familiar with the ICP concept, like ideal customer profile. It's like to your, you know, know your customer, understand your customer, con, uh, comment. Like a lot of businesses right now, they're kind of trying to be all things to all people and, and, and you know, you could be a massive brand, but if you're still sort of just like, hey, we're everything for everyone is going to get hard to win and to grow with that type of positioning. And so I think it's like sharpening who are you really for? Right? Like, and who are you not for? And being really clear on that and then making your messaging and your positioning and your campaign strategy and like content and all of these things kind of pointed to those people because then they know like, oh, this is for me. It's not like generic messaging, generic kind of positioning. Um, like the base example is a great one because like, you know, when I clicked on the ad and looked at the stuff, like all the messaging throughout all of the interaction and touch points was very succinct. Like we are for. And it was like CEOs founders, da da, da, da da. And then like we're like, they have another part of the community. It's like we are for, you know, and it's like very crystal clear on who it's, who it is and who it's not. And, and that was honestly what for me, I was like, okay, like, I don't usually join these things, but I was like, all right, I'll try it out. Like, I'll see, you know, like, if it. And they're saying things that I'm like, yeah, that's. That's me. Like, you're speaking to me. Okay, cool. Like, this sounds interesting, you know. Um, so I think it's just. It's like being very, very clear about who. Who you are talking to, who you're serving. Not. Not trying to just sort of cast this wide, wide net. Because I, I really think it's going to get very hard for folks who are just kind of like, we're everything and we're for everyone. And you're like, I don't know that people want that.

Speaker B: Right, right.

Speaker A: And then. And then, you know, the outcome of that is you're for no one.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, you know, a good strategy is about making choices.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. And, um, you. What you want to be really clear on is your audience's wants and needs. And as you were, as you were mentioning a few minutes ago, um, demonstrating that understanding right through your language or the information that you're providing or how you're positioning, um, yourself as a brand. Um, because, uh, people connect with brands personally or the. Or the brands that resonate the most are the ones that are able to form the emotional connection. Um, if it's purely a rational connection, um, anybody can substitute, um, a functional need. Um, so what you have to be able to get to is, um, demonstrating that understanding of your target audience, because if they feel like you understand them, then they're going to want to engage with you further.

Speaker C: 1,000%. Yeah. Um, would love any final thoughts, parting words to the audience, as well as, um, where can folks connect with you online?

Speaker A: Sure. Uh, so, you know, we talked a lot about, um, AI today, and I, uh, think that one of the most useful tools that y' all provided, um, us in our last engagement, uh, when we did this very deep dive in, uh, in some research around one of our, uh, programs, was that you took that research and you put it into, um, you know, a chat GPT, um, that we can now ask it questions. And it's pulling from our own data. And I think that's really important because the amount of information that's out there. Right. Who knows how much of it is actually not right? But if it's your data, um, and it's pulling from your information, um, you know, it's right. And so I think that's really important. So, um, that one, two is Just because you can find it doesn't mean it's valuable. Right. So understand, don't let, um, the amount of information, um, substitute some really good decision making. Right. So what are those triggers? What really matters, uh, to your consumer and to that journey, um, because that will help you, um, sort through, um, the volume of information that we now have easy access to. So I think that's really important. Uh, so if you're looking to connect with me further and understand a little bit more, um, about, uh, either my career, myself, or, you know, what's going on here at the. Yeah. Please feel free to reach, uh, out to me. Um, I'm on LinkedIn. You can also, uh, connect me. Connect with me, um, through the Y. Uh, more than happy to answer any additional questions that anybody might have or, um, have some further conversations.

Speaker C: Cool. And, uh, folks, you can always connect with me. Drew burdick.com I post a lot on LinkedIn. I have a newsletter, obviously, this podcast. Always great, great to chat with other, uh, leaders. Rob, Amazing conversation. Not surprising at all. It's been amazing. I appreciate you being on the show, man.

Speaker A: Yeah, thanks, Drew. I appreciate your time and thanks for inviting me.

Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Talk soon.

Speaker B: Like, comment and subscribe.