All Brand Marketing Starts With Advocacy | Camilla Craven on AI, Community & Modern Brand Building

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Building Brand Advocacy. Today I'm joined by someone really special. She was our first ever podcast guest back four years ago. Um, some call her the Queen of Advocacy, but also known as Camilla Craven. Welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me. That was four years ago. I know in a way it feels a bit of a lifetime ago, but.

Speaker A: Well, we're gonna get into that because I'm sure there's a lot that's changed in four years. Stuff that you probably didn't talk about that is huge now and also stuff that you did talk about that is still so important today. So, yeah, thank Camilla for anyone that hasn't listened to that first episode. You're silly if you haven't. Um, do you want to just give us a quick intro?

Speaker B: Yeah, of course. Um, I'm a fractal. Back then I was a brand director at Face Gym when I last spoke to Paul. These days I'm a fractional cmo, which is frankly a catch all term for I do a bit of everything other than working permanently in a CMO capacity. Um, and that includes functioning as an operating CMO for some brands through to um, like Sprint, Sprint work projects, transformation org structure, frankly, whatever it might be that I can help brands with. I would say it's um, these days it's the full remit and full gamut of marketing, but it's still very much with an advocacy first, community first lens.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean there is a reason why some people call you Queen of Advocacy. M. I suppose. What, uh, before we get into it, um, so I've got some stuff that you said because you also appeared on our episode 21, which is our social commerce panel as well, one of our top performing episodes as well. So everyone needs to listen to that one. Um, but I suppose in terms of the land of advocacy, like what. What's drawn you to because you're social advocacy. Right. What kind of, what in that space is like really kind of made you latch onto that part of marketing, do you think?

Speaker B: For me, uh, maybe I'm a purist, but I honestly think all brand marketing is rooted in advocacy. And I honestly think it's always been like that, even before the advent of social media, social and as we know it. I think it's Even how brands 100 years ago were being built. And so yes, it's somewhat in some businesses considered a division, a department, a channel or whatever it might be. But for me it's the heart of marketing and everything. I mean certainly I spend a lot of time talking to clients about whether I'd be right to fit for them or not. If you're a business that's purely going to be led on, let's say growth, growth marketing, right now I'm not going to be your person, but I still question whether those businesses should be built like that. Uh, anyway.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And how you can build for it, the center of it. So yeah, for me it's at the heart of everything.

Speaker A: Are we still getting brands that want to build through performance?

Speaker B: You'd be surprised. You'd be surprised. I think, um, to be honest, actually no, it's more, I think it's about prioritization. That's honestly the biggest challenge in building any businesses right now. Yeah, I think in principle, I mean if we all knew what the answers were, if we all had the silver bullet, we would have all created our own brands, we would have sold them by now. I certainly be lying on a beach with a cocktail in hand right now. It's not as simple as that. And I think we all understand the principles, what builds brand and what creates loyalty. But in practice it's the hard bit.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's what to prioritize. So I think the businesses that are building with perhaps more of a growth marketing mentality still performance, still meta led, it's not, they don't appreciate it. It's the speed of return, speed of whatever they're needing to deliver. Yeah, but the question is short term game, long term game. But it also comes down to just ruthlessly prioritizing what to do first.

Speaker A: Yeah. Because we talk about that a lot. Um, especially obviously through the conversations that we have in terms of like the first principles of advocacy, you know, starts with having a purpose. There's you know, creating remarkable experiences. You've got to have that long term view. But we also talk about it isn't a channel, it should be a company thing. It should embedded into product customer experience. Like it's not necessarily just a marketing function, responsibility, not at all. And like as you mentioned, like there's some brands that have been built like that now, but I don't know, like the, you work across multiple brands. Like do you see that as a possibility these days or is it like because in marketing it's moving so fast, like this whole world feels really chaotic. Can brands truly really build advocacy as a whole company, do you think now or does it still need to just fit in within marketing teams?

Speaker B: I think it absolutely can. I think it's um, the businesses that being built today can think of it first and foremost. But as I kind of said, I do also think it's been there forever. So why would you not develop a product in a way that created this natural version of. Someone wanted to feel a belonging, a part of it, and a propensity to want to tell someone else about it. For me, I struggle to understand why product even exists without that. Without that. Um, and it doesn't, you know, whether it's the most functional, unglamorous thing in my life. In fact, funny enough, the most unglamorous, functional things in my life right now are the most important things to my life. They're probably what I talk about the most and advocate for the most. Um, but yeah, in practice, it's, it's difficult for those. You know, for me, marketing is about amplifying advocacy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But really it's about how do you embed it in the brand idea? How do you embed it in when you think about product development in your customer service journey, the customer touch points. And you know, as I said, if I had the perfect answer for it and it was a perfect toolkit or one, I'd be out of a job because there isn't a one fit solution. But it's, I think where we're, where we're going wrong is still. So some, some areas are still thinking of it as a moment in time, a campaign or a channel versus a belief, an infrastructure and an operating system. And how you organize around that can be a thousand ways.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you know, I talk, I talk a lot to people right now about time, people and money being everyone's biggest challenge in business development right now. But they're all intrinsic. Come back to how does it all fit together?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, to be like in a sort of therapy session about it.

Speaker A: I'm gonna touch on some of that stuff, but I wanted to obviously, as we've mentioned, the first ever one and then the social commerce panel. So I wanted to have a quick look back on some of the things that you've said.

Speaker B: Okay, go on.

Speaker A: Um, this might be more of a therapy session. Yeah, so you said. Well, you told us advocacy has to start at home with employees and your immediate community before you chase big name influencers. That was one community. Um, building should start small. A couple of friends who have a couple of friends, not with scale. From day one, any relationship with an influencer or person of reach should start authentically. Uh, social media means any brand can reach anyone now, which levels the playing field against brands with bigger agency budgets. So I suppose just thinking about those three things, I mean, you've said so many brilliant things in terms of like, how things have moved on in those four years. What do you out of that? What do you think has held up? Ah, what's changed? Um, or like, has anything changed?

Speaker B: Uh, I mean, in principle I don't differ from any of those feelings. The biggest challenge has been how to again, stay true to that. And it's very different. If you were sitting in front of me as someone who's saying, I want to develop a brand, this is what I'm thinking and we can build, you know, that's almost like a day one. But when you're talking about businesses that have been around forever, structured in a certain way, or actually a lot of businesses going through total restructures of how they're doing them from a people perspective, um, there's that pressure. Like back then, I spent most of my time trying to convince of the power. These days, I don't have to do any of that.

Speaker A: It's great, that bit.

Speaker B: The challenge is everyone's got an opinion, everyone's an expert. Um, there's. And then there's the desperation to want to get it right straight away and the speed of which to take advantage of it. And so, yeah, those three things I said, I stand by 100%. But in practice, some of it can be quite hard because if I said to any new brand, or even any established brand right now, or a brand that was stalled in their growth, gotta go back to basics, start pure authenticity, start with a few, that's just not going to cut it right now. But the piece that I 100% have never changed is advocacy starts at home. If you don't have a business, and I don't mind whether that's a founder of one employee or millions around the globe, if you don't have that internal belief internally and you can't articulate that belief, uh, many businesses have an incredible culture with incredible advocacy, but they're all going off saying different things about that business. And I do think the way one of the things we've got as a challenge right now is this still a huge need to control what people say about brands.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so maybe that slightly contradicts what I just said, which is everyone in businesses can advocate and say different things about the same company. So it's not. I still think there's different interpretations that's needed, but if you can't even articulate your core values, mission, the purpose of it, it's gonna be quite hard to keep that consistency. Um, and the world is Very fluid, you know, particularly in the, in the world. The bit m that I'm quite interested in right now is um, marketeers themselves and the power and sphere of influence around them. And you know, again, like whether you're, whether you're working in the beauty space, in the health space like I am, or working in another space, you are uh, trusted for your thoughts and your opinions and your way people go to, for starting point.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so do we have to all be obsessed with everywhere we work? No, it doesn't always happen like that. I wish it was as perfect as that. But um, how can that infuse others if it doesn't start somewhere?

Speaker A: Yeah. There's a couple of things I touch on. The first one was you said everyone's got an opinion.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, I mean anyone outside of marketing thinks they can do marketing. Right. But in terms of the advocacy space, I don't know whether you feel like this, but the term advocacy, like you said, like, you know, a few years ago we had to, we had to have those conversations of the power of it, what does it mean, what it can do. Whereas now everybody's brought into advocacy, but I feel like they're slapping the word advocacy on different things. That uh, isn't actually advocacy. Um, are you finding that or is it just everyone's got an opinion on marketing?

Speaker B: Uh, yes, yes and yes to all of that I think. I mean, look, I actually am a big believer that the best ideas can often come from the most unlikely places. Even, even in my day to day where I consider myself hopefully an authoritative voice on it. I'm. There's people I meet who have one year's experience, who've got a more interesting perspective than I have on it right now. So I think um, to break down the two questions, I think variety of voices and perspective is really value, really important to me. It's almost like the fabric of community in itself. Different perspectives.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: On the same thing. So I'm really supportive of that. And if my belief starts to come in practice, which is we all need to live and breathe it. Marketing is the amplification of advocacy, not the advocacy itself. Then I stand by everyone can have a voice on it. I think the second question on confusing, you know, effectively, I mean I group it all under brand love. Yeah, it's probably if I, if I wanted to like just break down the simplicity because within that you can have more awareness, parts of community, more like advocacy at the heart. But really I actually spend a lot of the time helping people say like forget what to even call it because people get very hung up and even creator influencer.

Speaker A: What is it now?

Speaker B: Opinion. Former content creator. Again, I don't mind what you call. As long as you're talking on the same. As long as we're in the same business, you're having the same language and you understand what your intention is. Um, I mean when I, when I built the Chart Tilbury advocacy team all those years ago, I mean it was a PR nightmare trying to actually even recruit into that team. So advocacy, what I was like, just call it like on LinkedIn, we'll call it PR or whatever it need to be. And that now completely undermines it. So but again going. I think people over engineer, overthink.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: But also misunderstand the intention. Like a creator, for example, just to go into one type creator isn't automatically an advocate. Not all Africa's creators, no, not all creators in theory are, um, you know, some of them hold influence and trust. Others are there for uh, entertainment, others are there for storytelling, others for relatability. You know, everyone's role is so different and that's, I think that's the magic of what we do. I mean it becomes complicated because of that.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I think in terms, if we were to kind of. I know it's not a case of like putting in this one definition of what advocacy is. It's brand love in action. People that want to talk about your brand, whether they're recommending you or defending your brand without being paid to do it, that's how I see it.

Speaker B: And actually one of the things we, Paul and I talked about in the first podcast was, um, if you were to. Some of the brands I talk about the most, I'm not even a customer for.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I just love what they're doing and um, love. And it's not that I'm not a customer. I have it. I just. For whatever reason, what they do is not something I need in my life. I need to, I want, need to spend, want to be part of. But I really, I find myself. You come across people the time who are in need of something and just because I wasn't their customer doesn't mean I can't still talk about it. Still talk about it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And likewise as well, some of the biggest. I actually find the most interesting people in a brand, uh, as customers, audience, community, whatever you want to call them, are the ones who are intersecting with your brand, engaging with your brand, part of a brand. And the ones are not even shopping.

Speaker A: Mhm. But are there and so many times, like so many times on this podcast. Like it's not, it's not necessarily high spenders. When brands talk about like we're going to take our VIPs out and I'm like, is how do you, how do you class your VIPs? Well, who spends the most? I'm like what about, you know, people that are opening the emails that you know, the people that are in your, you know, your comments on your live shopping or just on your socials like that uh, are just actively there and like, like I said, they're defending you, they're talking about you. What about them?

Speaker B: So that's the most special if you can build a business where effectively, if you stop trading tomorrow, people are still part of it. Like to me that's, that's community, that's advocacy and whether or not they're coming to you for entertainment, knowledge, a sense of belonging, peer like finding like minded people. I mean there's lots of reasons why people are part of, there's lots of areas that proliferate that advocacy. Um, but to me there, that's where I'm like, how do I make more of you? And more importantly how do I unlock that group? Because it might be passive. I don't necessarily think someone who can be, I don't necessarily. Some of the most, probably most important valuable people to a brand, often ones the brand doesn't even know is because they might be quite passive in their behavior. But again the world we're in, what's changed over the last two decades is visibility of all of that and the control and, but as I said, it's been happening since humans existed 100%.

Speaker A: I knew we'd do this. I knew we'd get so stuck into detail. Yeah, let's. I wanted talk to you in terms of like the fractional lens because um, obviously you get to work across multiple brands and I wanted to kind of just dig into I suppose some of the patterns that you're seeing and I suppose you're, you're someone that can go in and sort of audit advocacy and whether that's programs or what's kind of happening in the advocacy space, um, within the brand, but within outside lens, I suppose. Are you what has been the most kind of like common thread that you've seen sort of in the last I want to say four years. But I think that's a ridiculous time frame to um, I think it's fair,

Speaker B: I think it's still, it's operationalizing like the operational layer behind it as I said. I don't think, I think we all have the right intentions and we all roughly know what we should be doing but physically rebuilding to do that the clients. I mean I intentionally try to structure my portfolio of work that I'm doing which is from pre revenue brands right up to household names and each of them could learn from one another one part of it. It's a lot easier to build it in something doesn't exist right now. It's a lot harder to put it into something that's much more established. But likewise the more established has years worth of brand love just needing to figure out where it is and how to um, build it, bring it together. The most common discussion, I mean I could probably boil down the conversation I have to like two or three all the time which is how do I physically do it?

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Where do people sit, who do people report into, who owns what, how do I think about the P and L to support that layer? Um, and again like the purest side of me would say I don't care where your team sit, what their titles are, who they're reporting to, as long as you think about the system in the right way and you build it as an infrastructure behind the business. Yeah, I think it's still. And I know this is an easy thing to say versus do and it's easy to give out the vice versa doing yourself. But um, with all the best intentions of the world you still. We have one customer. Well like effectively think about one customer, one journey. And yet we're building five or six different things internally that are not talking to one another. And even in the small businesses which have a couple employees are still trying to keep that together is hard because

Speaker A: they're thinking of you know, five different platforms, 15 different tools.

Speaker B: You could.

Speaker A: Yeah, you're not thinking of that one human.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you can have a business. Some of the businesses that I, you know where I work with businesses who are very crystal clear on what they are here to do and what their joint business plan KPIs are goals are as a business, even if you're very clear on that and centrally all pulling together for one objective, you still have individual KPIs, individual agendas and so naturally things can start to pull apart.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, you know, as a. Whether or not I was a CMO in a brand or fractional as I'm doing it well frankly even basically whoever's at the top has to worry about everything. It's and in practice that's hard to do because you can't Be in everything and you can't be putting it together all the time. And you can have team who have the right intentions. But um, not forgetting it's one customer with one journey. And the challenge is not all of them are going to have the same journey. Someone might discover your brand, see everything in one piece of content on TikTok and that is the start and the end of their shopping journey done. Others might be seeing, hearing about it, seeing an ad landing on site, seeing it in retail. So you know, we can't control all of that. But ultimately building for relationships.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And building for that bigger picture is the pattern recognition that I think can help. Yeah, I think um, as well the. And then the second piece to that is then like tools, systems, data. So often I see that being put in to solve problems rather than solving the behavior at the heart.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Or solving for the strategy or not building for the outcomes first and foremost. I mean if, if I could show my 2000, well frankly if I could show myself when I started my career, but if I could show myself probably around the 2016 era, what exists right now for systems, tools, platforms. Oh gosh, I would have cried with happiness. Now I'm in the challenge where I, and in fact it was. I ran an RFP quite recently um, for a brand to build them an advocacy and social sort of stack of sorts. And even me as the buyer who knows the industry very well, it was really difficult because you've got incredible. For one, the advent of AI is just an exploded technology. But you can, there's functionality that I see in so many different tools which I'm like oh my gosh, I want that. But how do you layer it on together? And it's all got a bit complicated. And you also ultimately all comes down to um, adoption by the team. So it's finding the balance and not just adoption by team, but also understanding at the C suite and understanding investment level. I could build you the most beautiful complex, well, not so the most beautiful system of everything talks to one another. But if the team just aren't using it day to day, then might as well not have anything.

Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker B: So it's that fine balance between building, starting small, layering on, building for outcomes and behaviors and then finding the solution.

Speaker A: Okay. Would you say that's kind of, if you were to look at day one in a brand? I know it's difficult. Every brand's different. Um, particularly if you're looking across that whole kind of suite from start up to uh, legacy, um, what would you say day One looked like in terms of the advocacy space going in and sort of what. What are those conversations they want?

Speaker B: Regardless of the brand size.

Speaker A: Regardless of the brand size. And then thinking about the next few months.

Speaker B: Yeah for me it's listening to start with like seeing what is going on, what's the status. Um and I don't mean just listening to team but listening to customers, seeing what exists. What are you working with to start from?

Speaker A: Hm.

Speaker B: Because I often something I'll get brought in to say we need to suddenly develop X amount more output or X amount more people or if X1 budget ready to go or we want to change the reverse, we want to make it more efficient channel. You can't do anything until you know what you're working with. And often it's too reliant on one data metric and people assume it's either not working or working or something exists. So yeah, my first job in anything I ever do, regardless of the size is just listen, observe and explore and see what's going on.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And seeing what's happening naturally without you having to um. As I said the marketing team for me is the um, incentivization, the proliferation of that advocacy. But what's happening if we did nothing, if we all just stopped and the site and the brands kept trading tomorrow and all channels turned off. What is naturally happening anyway?

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: And then build from there of what's needed.

Speaker A: Yeah. How are brands measuring advocacy?

Speaker B: All sorts of ways.

Speaker A: How should they be measuring advocacy?

Speaker B: Again it's so depend on the business. But for me there is a level of attribution and um, efficiency that we can all determine off our work right now. But again what I'm seeing so much of a challenge of is I hear if I had a penny for every time someone said that didn't work. And I say well what didn't work? That didn't drive sales, that didn't drive clicks, that didn't drive. Um, it could be any form of action but for me, and if I've done well, it might not drive a click, it might not drive, it might do nothing visibly but I know it's done something. And so there's always going to be that balance of head and heart data and uh, behavior and customers. We're in a world right now where everyone's decisions on purchasing goes from or if anyone's like me, goes from totally overthinking everything to so impulse one space of three seconds. Um, you know literally like yesterday I was trying to buy something and I had put stuff in my Amazon box and I was trying to find cheap and I was trying to find it better and it was like, you know, going in a bit of a spin and then next minute I just like something bought something that I think it wasn't something I knew I needed. Just there it goes. Um, so tangent. My point is there's still so much we can not measure.

Speaker A: And that's okay.

Speaker B: And that's okay. But I think you ultimately have to give signals enough to reassure the right. Whoever it might be.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, but again I think that like, let's just go back to like, let's go to like basic. Let's say you did a. We're doing a um, uh, influencer paid campaign of sorts.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You could take the exact same message, exact same look and feel of a creative with two content creators who are exactly the same size and they're both gonna perform very differently. M. And there's not. That doesn't mean one is a failure and one is a success based on numbers alone.

Speaker A: Mhm. Are you still finding that conversation of like advocacy community that that space is still a challenge like with the cfo?

Speaker B: Yeah, for me the CFO conversation is always going to be a challenging one. It's not a cfo, it's investors, it's founder and frankly it's even me leading the team. You know, I want to feel confident in and have conviction on um, the decisions we're making.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And testing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I'm not convinced with all the technology and everything that I can't even dream of. Let's say we're sitting here in five years time, I still don't think we would have cracked it fully.

Speaker A: Why?

Speaker B: Because I think customer human belief, human interaction, decision making is not linear, is not fully like unless you were to have a conversation with everyone that's ever engaged in something. So I think there has to be the trust in it there and the overall other markers you can use for intent.

Speaker A: Yeah, I suppose if you think about five years time from now we're going to have what, almost two bigger generations, the gen Alphas and then the gen betas coming up our kids.

Speaker B: So uh, let me give you an example. Like if, if the social media ban, which we're not going to talk about. No. Goes into effect, that fundamentally changes a huge group of massive.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And for argument's sake, let's say that turned off tomorrow and let's assume the ban was fully effective. Doesn't mean we're not stopped marketing to those people. And if we go back to marketing 20 years ago one to one.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Mainstream media, it was hard to determine effectiveness. So I think there's this also feeling that we have to determine like be able to measure everything. And yet for many years we were marketing without much of that at all. It was very one sided. So I also think there's that expect that expectation is unrealistic and I think there's this assumption that with social media platforms, data that's available to us, scraping a back end, API integrations, it's going to give us everything. But we'll only be able to do so much.

Speaker A: Yeah, so much. We could talk on that one. Um, I wanted to, I wanted to chat to you about the whole kind of. I suppose the m. You've already mentioned it, there's influencers, creators, but then you've also got macro micros, nanos. Um, and you wrote about, and correct me if I'm wrong about Mac putting Martha Stewart on their I Only Wear Mac campaign. Um, which was an unlikely pick. Right. Um, I suppose in terms of your, your line of work, what do you think was not wrong with that. But what, what, where did that come from? That ah. In terms of why you wrote that, do you think?

Speaker B: Um, so I think my thesis on Martha Stewart was actually. It was genius but unexpected.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, I think again it comes to the brand and the nuance of where you are. But for. If I had just shut my eyes and thought for a minute, what's Matt gonna do next? That wasn't what I thought they'd do next. When I first read about it I was like huh. Uh. And then all of a sudden it like clicked for me. What I think was genius about it and it's. Regardless of whether Martha Stewart's household name or an unknown, but a version of Martha Stewart is we all think we know what the end customer is, but it varies in buckets. And so bringing that to life in a fabric of your community.

Speaker A: What I wanted to say about Mac and like, as you said around how it was a move that you just wouldn't have expected. I actually think they're quite a fascinating team in terms of how they structurally operate and they operate in these culture pods and I think that's just such a. And I think that allows them to move one at a fast rate but also be able to kind of pull out not these stunts but these kind of moves where you're like oh my God, I wasn't expecting that.

Speaker B: I think they're a masterclass in reinventation. Uh, reinvention. Right now I've got to Give a shout out to Emily Bromfield, who was my boss at Charlotte Tilbury. She hired me there and she's currently running global marketing there. Over the last year and a half, I think or so that's a brand that for me was losing its way. No lack of love and disrespect for those running it before, but, um, and I think it's turned. They really stay true to who they are right now, but they come out with the unexpected. But they are thinking of very different ways to bring it to life and you can see that in the results. If we were to measure on more traditional EMV and share a voice right now and market share.

Speaker A: Do brands still use emv?

Speaker B: Yes, many do. Uh, some still die on the cross of emv.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: Um, but. And it has a place for me as well. But it's a temperature check. Yeah, it's a signal.

Speaker A: Signal.

Speaker B: It's not your. Something worked or didn't.

Speaker A: Okay, sorry. I knew again, I knew that we'd kind of go off on all these chapters. Um, but yeah, let's go back to the macros and the micro kind of space because, I mean that shifted so much even just in like the last couple of years. Um, and I suppose for you, like if you were handed a six figure kind of celebrity ambassador budget, how would you operate with that budget these days? If you're thinking about those two kind of creative landscapes, I would honestly park

Speaker B: budget for a second and just go back to where are we? Where do we need to go? What is currently missing? What is, um, the job that needs to be done in this brand, what's working well and then build for the outcomes that we want to achieve and then build the fabric of what that is. Because let's uh, I'm making this up but like, let's say it um, was a brand that was relatively unknown and missing elements of trust. For example, it might be that the strategy comes that we do need quite a broad mouthpiece that's more of a mainstream household name to help with that amplification. But likewise, we also might need to have a lot of that strategy be linked into people with credibility. And it might be regardless of size, but I need people who are experts in X, Y and Z arena.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So there's not an easy answer to give in terms of how to structure it. But I think overall, in principle, every type of size of influence has its place still. They have different roles, but, uh, they also, even two household names with the same size of audience side by side can have a different Role.

Speaker A: Mm mhm. Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, and Martha's. In the case of Mac, the brief might have been household name. Someone with a slightly provocative point of view or sort of like MA might feel that will reach us across America.

Speaker A: You could have gone in terms of employee advocacy. Where do you think that will go? Because obviously that is a huge, I don't want to say thing right now because it's not a thing. It should again it should be just part of that whole advocacy piece. But in terms of employees putting themselves out there and them being the creators now, how far do you think brands are going to start looking inwards and sort of not looking outward anymore in terms of like their creator budgets and because I think that could be really interesting, I think

Speaker B: I. For me employee advocacy doesn't have to be more complicated in principle than how do you build that natural efficacy amongst your employees. And ultimately they're all here to do a certain job and it might be that they want their job to end at the end of the day, but someone who knows they represent a brand and m. What they can do about it and then obviously as you say you can take it to the full extreme and one becomes effectively the face of the brand.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And we've seen many examples in recent years where there's been some incredible success stories of brands who have built a narrative and storytelling from who's in that business. Um, did they, you know, and as they're all the founders. Well. And the sort of resurgence of the founder led brand right now. But you can uh, there's brilliant business out there who don't have any faces of like any founder, anyone internally. That's the voice. But they build voices on the way. So I think not to like avoid the question but it comes back to what, what do we stand for? How do we tell that fabric of who we are? And if there's a natural way to do that with people who are in your own building, brilliant genius. But it also won't be right for everyone even if you have that. I think the challenge will be um. I've been really loving the um, the uh, odd muse. Um.

Speaker A: Oh, with Sophie.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Going back.

Speaker B: Yeah. And like you know that's become like a, a ah, narrative in itself I think. And so, and even the way I think what Sophie, if you're listening to this and what the team did at salts even the exiting of a team member who was clearly very happy but went back to someone that they, you know, have a natural affinity to, that's become like a whole story in itself and I, because I was about to say my. Before, the reason why I suddenly jumped there was thinking the risk of having employees be a big part of the voice of the brand is people come and go. But I think being comfortable with that and embracing it is also very valuable. And you know, even back in the days of when I was at benefit 12 years ago, running their comms, you know, um, with amazing Lisa Posh, Dixon and Loretta and Lauren and the team, how do we build around them but also build for a business that can stand without that? And the same goes for founder businesses. When I was at Charlotte Tilbury, Charlotte still very much at the helm of that business, but won't be forever, I'm sure.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And how do you build a brand that can stand without that as well? M. So for me I. Again, it's so nuanced, but there's, there's some incredible examples of that done well. But I don't, I would hate someone to listen to this and think, oh my God, I've now got to go do that. Yeah, I, um, think you've got to look at all the tools in your toolbox you can leverage within the amplification of advocacy and if that's one of those done efficiently, authentically.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think speaking of tools, I mean you've already mentioned like if you were to look back five years ago and someone said you were going to have all of this, um, I suppose in terms of like, I suppose four years ago AI didn't even come up in the conversation. Right.

Speaker B: No,

Speaker A: huge um, conversation now, um, I think would be silly not to mention it. Um, I mean it's gonna be interesting. I think this uh, in quarter four in terms of like what's gonna happen Black Friday, I mean Paul obviously the co host of the show is talking about how it's going to be a massive. No one's going to be scrolling deals are they? They're going to go to their, their preferred uh, AI platform of choice and be like, show me this, show me where all the deals are. Um, but for you, in terms of AI and advocacy, what do you think is happening with the two right now?

Speaker B: First of all, everyone's obsessed with the word AI, but to me it's just technology. So that's never gone anywhere. It's just a new version technology and propelling of that. Um, so whether technology, AI interchangeable, where it's changed the game for us in our industry right now is knowledge, um, automation, speed, agentic behaviors, layering, removing a whole layer of admin identification Tracking all the stuff which done better, uh, done quicker, can uh, arm us with the right information.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: What it can't do for me, uh, this is on more of an operating operating system. It can't, it can help build relationships, but it can never replace building relationships. I'd love to see how, you know, I, if I could dream up how to solve it would be how do you make, let's say I was the community manager brand 10 of me and it literally is me, but done. Yeah, agentically. And I question where that line will ever be, how far it will ever be able to get to build authentically. So yeah, for me it's like solved so many of my problems and my worries. Um, I also do, I mean there is some of the fear of. Not the fear, some of the assumption it would just solve everything. I don't think it will solve everything. And I think we've got to be realistic about what that is and not just take that as truth.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, but we've, you know, leaning into it, embracing it and using it in the right areas and not using it where it shouldn't replace something else.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, I think the challenge on a, like from a ICP and purchasing as a CMO of the tools out there right now and systems is, you know, it used to be very easy to determine what a product roadmap looked like for the next year and you know, commit to a two year contract. The world is moving so fast. I think even if I was to even sit and look in the eye of the cto, they'd probably also not have quite all the answers for me right now of what that will look like. We're all building at speed. And so I think right now what we're, at least what I'm experiencing is kind of um, an overwhelm because everyone's grabbing at what there is right now trying to build really fast. I think what we'll see, if we were talking in a year's time, there'll probably be um, I think there'll be um, amalgamation of systems tools, AI technology that goes within it. I think we'll see uh, some businesses not make it. I think we'll see others fold into other areas. But then also going back to the one customer piece. Yeah, I can't have, I can't ever behave with one customer. If I have one that does my social listening, one that does my interaction, one that does my social monitoring, one helps me manage. But then the downside, the one fear I do have about ah, um, consolidation is what I Love right now is you have ah, businesses who. They've got a superpower. And I talk a lot about superpowers of like individuals and systems and tools like what is the one superpower? And if everyone. If we. If ultimately you could show me here. Camilla is a system that will do everything for you. I know you can't be a super. The superpower will not be solving for everything. And so I also worry about that too. So I'm a bit stuck as well between wanting it all and not wanting that. Um, but I think that's what we've all got to figure out. And I think most importantly the ones that will thrive are ones who understand what it feels like to be the operator in the business as well because you can come up with incredible features and platforms and whatever it might be. But in practice what was it actually feel like?

Speaker A: Yeah. Ah, such a. It's an interesting scary space I think. Um and I think that's such a good point around being in the operator shoes and I actually think that's not happened for a while. Um. And. And that's the scary bit because this world has this. Our space has changed so much.

Speaker B: Yeah. And actually a lot of the business I talk to. Mhm. The bigger businesses are thinking about what they build of their own as well. M. And again I have quite a strong feeling right now which is build your own where it's relevant to help, you know, more like your agents within that borrow from other technology and systems to bring that together. Interpret it in a way that's useful for you as a business. But likewise let's take I don't know, identification and monitoring. Like there's businesses whose entire foundation is building that will never rival that.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So use what exists and again lean into the superpowers where it's needed. But it also I think finding you know, we're all obsessed with the shiny new toy when it comes out too. Yeah, me too. But again it comes. You know there's probably where I have a lot of conversations and what I think I'll continue to have a lot of conversation the next year is is something. Will something get us 75% of the way and we'll only have to spend 25% or is going the extra 25% and investing going to really. But then have a challenge with adoption and usage is going to be the right answer.

Speaker A: Yeah. Let's watch this space. You've mentioned a few brands already but who's getting this right? Who's getting advocacy right right now for you?

Speaker B: Hey, I'VE been answering this question. It's a bit of everything. Oh, I think that um, and businesses are doing it in so many different ways as well where I think it's genius. I mean I actually, funny enough the F and B space right now gets me the most excited. The perfect ted's of the world trips, the um, salts. I think there's a lot to be taken from that. I think that um, in the beauty space I see moments of brilliance, but what I don't always see is it then like filtrating across everything that they're doing. Um, so yeah, it's almost like if I, if, if I could make a bit of a baby of lots of different brands, I wish of each part of it. But I think uh, my again it comes back to. I think a lot of brands are using it for fame. Moments of fame.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, which is not to be undermined but you know, like, you know, let's take in the TikTok and shop here. Right now everyone's talking about Dr. Malaxson's of the world and the Medicubes, the Metaheals and the, I mean the scale of which those businesses is just incredible. But then the challenge for me is then how do they build brand like legacy?

Speaker A: Well, I wanted to just touch on this now you mentioned it because it might be slightly different to the angle that you were going to talk about. But TikTok shop for me I think is that not damaging because anyone can be an affiliate, anyone can be talking about brands on there. There is literally there's. And I hate to say it because you know, in terms of advocacy, you can't control the story, you can't control the messaging of what people are saying about your brand. But how it's been done on TikTok I think is, I think in particular in the influencer space. I know I was speaking to someone a few months ago and they were talking about in terms of the brand that they worked in. She was like, we now can't work with certain, uh, influencers because of how TikTok, how our brand is being represented on TikTok shop. And I just found that super interesting because have you seen any kind of conversations like that where it's almost not damaging the brand but it's almost kind of separating the brand out a little bit.

Speaker B: Um, so I definitely am in the camp of thought that if you're concerned about brand dilution and control, then you don't have a crystal enough brand in the first place and like a strong enough, enough foothold to work from because again I'm not going to be always right but my view is this has been going on for many years since humans existed and we couldn't control what people were saying. I couldn't tell you what someone at school gates was saying to a fellow mum friend was telling someone about we're just building very visibly now and very publicly. Uh put it this way in the last two years of all the brow and I've done maybe 40 I can't remember maths but 50 brands in the last couple of years I can only think of two instances where I've and two pieces of content that I've said that is now not okay, not what I want. Um and that was honestly like a click baiting style of um uh. Like using like this brand's been cancelled to try and get attention the rage bait, that kind of thing. Beyond that I, yeah for me I'll always I think be in the camp of diversification of voices and opinions and thoughts can only bring richness to a brand but it's probably one of the biggest challenges in a lot of particularly in the premium prestige heritage brand space right now of how to do that.

Speaker A: And I also wonder why some of the influence was then the sort of the I would say probably more like the, the micros the mega ones don't associate themselves with TikTok shop because I think that was the interesting point as well. It's kind of like they're not, they're not doing that kind of like lo fi ugc. Why are they seeing it as oh I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be

Speaker B: doing that I think I mean the, the two stigmas that TikTok shop is still grappling with is price pricing and gray market sort of inauthentic products.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um and there's probably a little bit of its creating it has proliferated the like hype culture of trust in some products.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um but I think but also like a lot of those creators in this and the world of affiliate affiliates been around for a long time that's not new Talking about affiliates right now as if it's something that's just existed since um but they will professionalize up and they'll you know there'll be people they'll when their revenue stream suddenly becomes different to just cut off commission whilst they have a side job. Well they run their job and it's on the side they'll forever be in that world But I think you would be brands cannot build and creators if they really want to build for the future of their own pipeline. I think they've got to think of it like that and do it in the way that feels right to them.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, but the. Yeah. Going back to, as I said, some of those K beauty brands I think have done incredible job of advocacy. They basically fueled. Dr. Blackson had something like 250,000 searches a week. Month. I would get my data wrong and it's a brand I never even heard of months ago.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But then how do they then link it into. What's missing for me is then the brand. I'm only seeing it uh, in those places and then it's not like coming through. So I think it's that ecosystem or it's more important like the product is. I actually bought some of those products and now some of them I sit on and haven't used. Again, like, again, going back to my very first question you asked me today, which is for me, you build products with absolute.

Speaker A: The heart. Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think the. Yeah. I think the one danger is the inflation of hype around a product. Like ultimately, particularly in my world of beauty, there's some products have changed my life. There's some products that have made me a hell of a lot happier person. But if it comes to like aging and how your skin's gonna change, a product can only do so much. It's like being realistic in that too.

Speaker A: Damn it.

Speaker B: I'm still on the search despite me

Speaker A: knowing that we need to talk about that off camera as well. Um, Camilla, are you ready for cringe or community?

Speaker B: I um, am.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: I'm allowed to break rules and say a different word.

Speaker A: Try it.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Okay. A brand appointing a face who's never mentioned the brand before.

Speaker B: Cringe. Criminal.

Speaker A: Oh, I love the new word. We've got a new feature. Um, a founder replying personally to every single comment community.

Speaker B: But it doesn't have to be the founder. Do you think it has to be the founder?

Speaker A: Who else?

Speaker B: Anything authentically representing the brand or frankly could be perceived as the founder.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: I mean Charlotte Tilbury. For years we used to reply to DMs as if it was Charlotte. We all knew it wasn't. But it like that's the brand. The DNA.

Speaker A: Yeah. Gifting a product to 500 micro creators with no brief and no ask.

Speaker B: I like no brief and no ask. In principle I just want lots of more questions about the context of it. I think people think the solve is just volume, not asking, just get it out there. So as long as it's for the right reasons. But, yeah, I'm a big believer getting product in the hands of people and letting them interpret as they wish.

Speaker A: Yeah. So more community than cringe.

Speaker B: Yeah, of course.

Speaker A: A brand calling its fractional marketing team part of the family.

Speaker B: I mean, it's a bit cringe, but it's so true. I hope people think of me as

Speaker A: their family announcing a celebrity ambassador deal before the celebrity has ever used the product.

Speaker B: Criminal.

Speaker A: A brand's community. That's really just a subscriber list with a nicer name.

Speaker B: I wouldn't say it's cringe, but it's not a community either. No.

Speaker A: M. What is a community?

Speaker B: How long you got, Camilla?

Speaker A: M. That's all I've got. Thank you.

Speaker B: Thank you so much.