Laura Kornhauser - The gift of a family business, calculated risk-taking, and the importance of finding your people | Episode 24

Speaker A: So I was an executive director kind of getting ready for that next level. And I remember thinking about how sad it was to the concept that I would have to be a different person at work than the person that I was. And then I started doing the math on the hours one spends at work, especially in the job that I was in. And it's a lot and it's more than the hours you spend awake not at work. So I had a big existential Sorry, I m don't know. Discovery wasn't a crisis of like, do I want to spend all my work time being fundamentally kind of like a different person than I am? Um, and I didn't want to do that. So I tried to figure out, okay, what the heck do I do now?

Speaker B: Hi, my name is Nathan Baumeister and you're listening to Builder, Banker, Hacker Chief, a podcast where executives from the world of finance and technology share the story of how they got where they are and the decisions that made them who they are. I'm looking for hidden moments of truth and sacrifice, wisdom and folly, and what it's like to navigate the treacherous waters at the helm of a growing company. I want to do all that so that together we can learn from their journey and use that insight personally and professionally. In episode 24. My guest is Laura Kornhauser, co founder and CEO of Stratify, a fintech company that is increasing financial inclusion for consumers and mitigating risk for financial institutions through their AI driven decisioning platform. As the daughter of a software engineer mother and an accidental academic father turned accidental entrepreneur, Laura grew up watching her parents build a company together. The business was woven into their home life with employees becoming members of an extended family. Not only did that business provide Laura with several of her first jobs, it also gave her a map for the type of company culture that she would create at Stratify. After getting her degree at Princeton, where her father also worked as a professor, Laura spent more than a decade at JP Morgan working in investment banking and derivatives. After a crisis of personal principle led her to resign, Laura went on to earn her MBA from Columbia. Between her upbringing, academics and professional career, the idea that Laura would start her own company does not seem far fetched. But when she hit the VC circuit looking to fund her new venture while also pregnant with her first child, the response left her questioning her own qualifications. Fortunately, Laura has never lacked determination or self confidence, refusing to make her personality or opinions just to fit in placate corporate biases. Today, she is leading a company that is taking that same principle into financial decision making, eliminating bias and mitigating risk, but just as importantly, creating a company culture where people can feel safe and accepted for who they are without risking their careers. I had so much fun with Laura, and I can't wait for you to hear our conversation on episode 24 of Builder Banker, Hacker Chief. This is a joyful romp through the ins and outs of family business, risk taking and the courage to be yourself in the face of immense opposition. All right, well, Laura, thank you so much for joining us on Builder Banker Hacker Chief.

Speaker A: So happy to be here. Nathan.

Speaker B: Yeah, I've been a longtime fan. I have just absolutely loved getting to know you over the years as we're building our companies together. And I can't wait for, for our listeners, uh, to be able to learn from you and your story.

Speaker A: Oh, that's very kind of you. The feeling is extraordinarily mutual, and I'm super happy to be here today.

Speaker B: Awesome. So I always love to start from the beginning, Laura.

Speaker A: Yeah, way back when.

Speaker B: So, as we take it back. Yeah, way back when, in the beginning, how is it that you growing up helped to shape you into the entrepreneur that you are? Cause let's be honest, we're all a little crazy.

Speaker A: Little bit.

Speaker B: Starting companies, running companies. Something happened in your youth that said, yeah, you know what? I could do this.

Speaker A: What was that, that moment of craziness that sparked? Uh, well, for me, it was a long moment. Um, my parents are entrepreneurs, so my parents started a company, uh, not necessarily purposefully. Um, my dad was a professor, and he was, uh, working really late one night, and quite literally the phone rang in the department that he worked in, and he picked up the phone and it was someone calling to try to get consultant help. Um, it was actually. He's a transportation guy. It was a railroad company. It was the early 80s. All the railroad companies were merging and they were trying to figure out what to do with their rail lines and basically how to take the existing hardware that they had and the routes that they had and make it into something, um, that kind of made sense in the new company. So he started taking that consulting work that then grew into a business. My m mom then left her job. At the time, she was an engineer, or as she loves to call it, a programmer, which is what they called it back in the day. She was a programmer. Um, and she came over to work with him. And my dad's very much the big ideas guy, um, and the vision guy. And my mom's the actually get shit done, pardon my French person. Um, so they were a really great pair. And I saw them work and build the company over the course of 30 years before they eventually sold it to a strategic. Um, and that those were my first, second, third, fourth, fifth jobs growing up, starting from answering the phones when I was in high school, which I actually really loved. Great job answering phones. Get really great at talking to people on the phone. Answering the phones when I was in high school, up to when I was in college, network editing, um, with my dad, typically like late nights at the office. Um, and I really loved what they built as far as a culture within their community, within their company. Most of the people worked there for a long time. Um, they were family members to me. You know, came over for, came over for dinners, came over for our Seder, like our Passover Seder was always like a smorgasbord of the people that didn't have things to do. Um, stayed with us in between apartments, all these kinds of things. So it was very much a family. Um, and I always really admired that and I think had deep within myself a desire to go do what they had done and build something like what they had built from a cultural standpoint.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: What an awesome hands on education that you were able to get from your parents. I do have some follow up questions because it's just like all that you just shared, there's just like chock full of so many different lessons. The first one is that typically when someone chooses the route of academia, they are very opposite of uh, entrepreneurs. Yeah. So I'm just curious, like, what was your dad just not like, like, was he not like the typical academia that he's like, oh man. Yeah, let's jump in and do this.

Speaker A: My dad is not typical any. I mean for those that. My dad's name is Alan. For those that know Alan Kornhouser, he is not. He is, uh, they do not forget him. Um, he is not typical in any way, shape or form. He's now been a professor a, for over 50 years. Um, he still, I still will have people, random people will come up to me at events or wherever we are. And because obviously my last name is reasonably recognizable, I will get these. I can't tell you, like out of the blue. Wait, do you know Alan? Um, and it's someone. Yeah, someone that took his class, you know, 20 years ago or whatever and still remembers him. He's a, um, very energetic, vivacious guy who I would say was a like unintended academic. Okay, um, unintended academic. Uh, my mom actually had a lot to do with that. They met in college. I don't think at the time they met, he will admit that he was not studying super hard or. Well, my mom got him up to snuff. No surprise. Um, she's the implementer. Yes. She's the GSD person in every way, shape and form. Um, and so I think that that got him a little bit more into academics. And then he went for post grad work and he was really into aerospace because when they were back at that time, it was really exciting, all the space stuff that was going on. I remember I used to make fun of my parents back in the day when I was in high school. I'd be like, did you go to Woodstock? And they'd be like, no, we went to the space shuttle launch. And I was like, you dorks. Now I'm like, I kind of get it.

Speaker B: Like, I kind of want to go to some space launches.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah. Wow, that is awesome. The one thing that. It sounds like a very strong common thread between both of them is the level of curiosity.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: Like, always learning, like, still in their 80s. Like, there's still more to learn, there's more to do, more to see. Like, let's go. Let's go.

Speaker A: Curiosity and work ethic. Like, work ethic. Um, they both, you know, came from humble beginnings and, you know, um, did everything that they, you know, got every single dollar for themselves and, um, very much instilled a, I think, a really good work ethic in me and my siblings because of that. Because we saw it firsthand. I mean, that's what they always say about parenting, right? Like, you can tell your kids things all the time. All you want is about what you show them. And they showed us that throughout our entire lives. Um, you know, throughout our entire lives. I almost wish that they sometimes worked a little less.

Speaker B: Maybe just a little less, uh, for them.

Speaker A: For them, I mean, we didn't want, you know, we got to do all the fun stuff, but for them, I wish they, you know, took a few more vacations and worked a little less sometimes.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, something that's, you know, there's multiple ways to learn from someone what, what to do and what you would suggest maybe not to emulate.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, for sure. Like, I. I think that that's one thing. That's. That I am so grateful for in general, just the age we live in. And also, Covid, is that, uh, you know, my. My parents used to have to go physically back into the office at night when they needed to work at night. Now, if I have to get something done. You know, I just go to my computer. Um, and it. And it makes it so much easier, A, logistically, and like, B, it's just easier. I have little kids. I feel like it's nice for them, even if they're sleeping, to know that, like, we're not running out of the house to go somewhere.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so I feel so grateful for that.

Speaker B: Yeah. All right, I'm going to throw a complex question at you.

Speaker A: Ooh, I can't wait.

Speaker B: But then it's going to be a little bit of choose your own adventure, because. Yeah, just. I'd love to go in. Choose your own adventure wrapped in your story of growing up. And you said it was for a long time, like, even through college you were working there. Uh, you have this dynamic of, um, a husband and wife working together in a business. And not just a husband and wife, also the kids. So lots of times that doesn't work at all, but somehow it worked. Um, there's this idea of balance or integration. People call it work life balance or work life integration, however you want to talk about it. But everyone's in the business, but you're also a family. How do you actually balance that? And then the third one which is tied to it is you learned that treating the team members at the company like family. Family was super important. But you also, like, when you're running a business, you also need to, like, be profitable and you need to. You have certain performance expectations of folks. So is it really a family? Because, like, you can't, you can't fire your uncle, but you can fire. But you can't fire an employee. Right. And so, uh, it's all wrapped up into one in this question. The reason I wrapped it up into one is because it all has to do with this, like, family business, personal, caring, like. Yeah.

Speaker A: Where are the, where are the borders? Where.

Speaker B: Yeah, So I just, I just love to hear wherever you want to go with this question.

Speaker A: Um, it's messy, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's messy. Okay, so I'll start with the kind of personal part of it, and then I'll go to what I think about it in regards to stratify. So on the personal part, my parents are no longer married. My parents got divorced shortly after selling the company. Um, and is that the reason? No. Is it a contributing factor? Probably, you know, probably, um, working with anybody is really hard. And they were effectively co founders together. And, you know, for all the reasons that, you know, VCs have kind of sayings they say about we never invest in a married couple. You know, there are. There are things that are harder about that. And while I feel really lucky and I feel that I benefited from the fact that they are very different individuals, you know, over the long term, sometimes opposites don't always attract. Right. Um, so for me, I feel like I got the benefit of having two parents that are both so fantastic but are so different. Um, and, you know, that made the smorgasbord that is Laura. Um, but, you know, for them, making a marriage work through, you know, the normal, like, ups and downs of life, it got too hard. So I think it's sad that that's the way it ended up for them. I wish that wasn't the way it ended up for them. I, um, wish there was a kind of more happily ever after for them after they sold the business.

Speaker B: Partnerships and business and love can be hard, which isn't to say that you shouldn't mix them clearly. Laura's parents had a lot of beneficial synergy and reached a successful exit for their company. The work of building a company, raising a family, and cultivating a marriage are some of the hardest jobs anyone can, uh, undertake. Even when skills, mission and values align, relationships aren't science. And despite our desire to reduce business to numbers, it's not that simple either. We are human beings tackling human problems. We can't control the outcome, only our effort.

Speaker A: As far as the family, I have two older sisters or older siblings. One sister, one brother. My sister was involved in the business a little bit, but my brother was most involved in the business. So my brother started working there a few, uh, years after he graduated college. He actually went over with another colleague to Europe to start their European business. So he had kind of his own thing, if you will, to run. And he absolutely crushed it. I mean, like, absolutely dominated it. Um, and that, I think, was really important. I think if he had been not with his own, call it, thing to own and run, the clash with parents, all that stuff would have been probably really, really hard. Um, but because he had this kind of segregated thing, um, it worked okay. You know, there were still hard parts, um, and, you know, still challenging, um, moments, um, because, you know, there is with any job, with any job, right? With any job, let alone with any job that involves family, right? They're gonna be challenging moments. Um, but it was able to work because, again, he had this kind of piece to own for me. I was just, like, happy to be there, you know. So for me, it was never really challenging because it Was never their business was never part of my quote, unquote career, you know, if that makes sense.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, it was just a way to learn.

Speaker A: It was a way to learn stuff. It was cool. Like, you know, I was spending a lot of time there anyway, because my parents were there all the time, and I was third kid, you know, so, um, it was a way for me to get involved. And I was always that kind of person. You know, the first way I got, like, you know, I loved, like, going around the office to do things right. Like, we would have office barbecues at my house. And when I was like, four years old, my parents loved telling the story about how I was trying to organize everybody to do a game and a competition. And so I liked being involved in it. And so for me, it was all positive. Um, but it was because, again, I had a good amount of separation from my own career. For stratify. It's hard. It's hard when you really care about people, um, and you feel like you hire really wonderful people, which we have been really fortunate to be able to do. Our team is our greatest, uh, strength. Right. Um, greatest asset. No question of that. Um, and so I care very deeply about everybody that works at the company today, and I care very deeply about everybody that worked at the company yesterday and doesn't work at the company today, whether, you know, they left for whatever reason. And I always try to think about the classic, like, bad egg can spoil the bunch and that, you know, if we have someone that needs to go, um, they need to go because they could. They could, you know, they could tamper the rest of this great thing that we have going on. And it's not fair to everybody else to keep people that, you know, uh. Cause I have. Whatever. Cause I care about them because I don't want to let them go, whatever it may be. So I try to take that mentality, but it's really hard. Like, I would say it's one of the hardest things for me personally about the job, um, is that I always want to kind of like, find the good. Find the way that we could help make it work. I'm a make it work person. And sometimes you, um, have to not be a make it work person when you're running a business.

Speaker B: Sometimes the way to make it work is to tell them, you know, ask them to leave.

Speaker A: Very good point. Like, is to look at the macro, make it work. Not the micro, make it work. Right. Um, but it's. I struggle with it. It's hard. It's hard.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Well, um, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I totally agree with you. It is absolutely the worst part of running a company.

Speaker A: Source part. It's the worst part. Um, but a really important part. But a really important part too. Um, and I think I'm a very loyal person. Loyalty is very important to me. I feel very loyal towards the people that have either worked at our company or helped our company. And, um, that will never go away. But I really feel oftentimes, especially if you have to let someone go, if you do it in the right way, it's ultimately better for that person too. And I know that's a little like Kumbaya, but I do actually believe it.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, one of the nice things with years of experiences is you can actually look back at specific people where that actually became true 100%, which is really nice. Right. It gives some peace, I think, when you're early on in your career and you haven't had that lived experience of seeing that when you, when you let someone go, it actually. And most of the time ends up better for both parties. It's like, well, right now I'm not feeling that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right now I'm just scared and worried.

Speaker A: Right. And. And especially now, it's kind of a weird environment out there. And, um, you know, people, it's. It's the toughest part of the job.

Speaker B: Yeah. All right, so you had this fabulous hands on education, watching your parents grow this successful company, and you decided still to go ahead and follow the traditional education path. Right. So, uh, you went to college. Um, where did you go and what did you study?

Speaker A: Uh, I went to Princeton University. Uh, and I studied longest major of all time, Operations research and financial engineering.

Speaker B: Nice.

Speaker A: Say that five times fast. Called Orphe Orfi or what? Yeah, I know it sounds kind of like it's kind of like a weird space alien. Orfie.

Speaker B: Yeah. Does Orphe eat cats like alf?

Speaker A: I hope not. I think of ALF a lot. No, it was, I mean, it was a great major because it was engineering, but very much tied into finance. So I minored in finance, um, and engineering management systems, um, whatever that means. Um, and it was a very, you know, it was a very practical engineering degree. Um, yeah, you know, we did a lot of, um, modeling and simulations for, you know, stochastic processes and other unpredictable things. And like, that ends up being, I think, a very. Ended up being very relevant to the work I ended up doing, even though I didn't necessarily know that was going to happen.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, um, as you were going through Princeton. Yeah. And, uh, you know, I don't know. Studying orfie. Is that how you say. Is that how you say that? Studying orphea. Sure. Being an orfer. Uh, do you, do you have, like, now with the gift of hindsight?

Speaker A: Yeah. Everything is so much clearer, Nathan.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Are there, Are there any stories or specific experiences you look back that you're like, oh, man, that had. That. That actually had a big impact on helping me to become the leader that you are?

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, for sure. Um, I was an athlete. Um, I say was so, so sad, but was an athlete. Um, so I played ice hockey in college. Um, and I played it all growing up. I started playing when I was five. Um, and that the whole experience hugely shaped the person that I am. Um, and then I think doing it in college shaped a lot of my, I would say, multitasking skills. Um, so. So I was an engineer. And especially, like when you start off in engineering, that works a lot. It's a lot of classes and it's a lot of hours. Um, and then I played ice hockey. And then I wanted to have a social life because I cared about that a lot. A lot. Um, so I used to do things that were crazy, like create. You know, I had Friday, 9am Physics tests every week they would, like, quiz on what you learned that week. And I used to make flashcards. And when I was going out to go out, I would review the flashcards on the walkout and then after a couple beverages, I'd review the flashcards on the walk home and then go take my test at 9am Friday. So you do a lot of squeezing it in and fitting it in, um, uh, wherever you can. And, uh, that multitasking skill or management of multiple different priorities really, really helped me. Um, so that was huge. Um, and then I had a lot of really great opportunities while I was at Princeton to, um, bring people together, usually, um, for social reasons, but sometimes for other reasons as well. So I think I learned a lot about how do you motivate people and get people excited about things and get people to rally behind your crazy idea? You know, usually it was some event or some activity we were going to do, but, um, still I found that, like, it's amazing how much leading with excitement, um, becomes infectious. So I got very good at kind of like amping up the jazz for things. Um.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And that, I think, has been like a really valuable skill to me for my career as well. And then I learned a bunch of stuff too. But, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think, uh, what I love about the two things that you called out is, um, there's a big narrative now and I think it's merited that the formal education system through college might not be for everybody. And I totally think that makes sense. Uh, but I do think that a, uh, discussion I'm not hearing about as much is going to college isn't just about what you study.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: And in fact, there's a microcosm of various different experiences that you're not going to be able to have otherwise that can have a deep influence on your life. Like playing hockey in college and like figuring out what type of social scene you're interested in and how to motivate people and energize them. Right. Like, it's a great experience. It's a great hotbed for experimentation and not just in an educational sense.

Speaker A: Uh, couldn't agree with you more. And I would say Princeton does a nice job of this as well, because kids live on campus for four years. So it really creates, I think, more closeness amongst the undergraduate population, which I really benefited from as well. Um, but it also kind of keeps everybody a little in that bubble for longer.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Which again, I think kind of incubates a lot of those learnings that you just talked about, um, that are very much outside of the classroom. Very much outside of the classroom.

Speaker B: Living in close community can be really uncomfortable and downright weird, especially in college. But those experiences form how we see the world, create adult friendships and enter the workforce. College isn't just about a degree. It's about discovering and shaping the person you want to become. In a moment, Laura's going to talk about how her senior thesis was both a major accomplishment and a missed opportunity. You could see it as a failure or as a reminder that noticing trends and patterns that others don't isn't enough. Uh, you need a vision to execute as well. There's something very powerful about forced social interactions with people that you wouldn't otherwise normally choose to spend time with. Um, that really helps to grow your empathy, helps to grow your patience, helps to just. So many things. So, uh, yeah. I love that. I love that for you. You had that experience. And now I know anyone that went to Princeton has that experience. Right.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Very cool. Now I have to ask, was it at Princeton that the thesis story happened as well? Because, you know, we gotta talk about that.

Speaker A: My big missed opportunity. Uh, yes, it was at pr. So, uh, there you have to. Everybody writes a thesis. Um, which I also think is interesting. Everybody writes a thesis. Uh, it is like this Big thing your senior year, of course, writing your thesis. Um, and it's a massive journey that you undertake as an individual. Um, another big lesson journey. Uh, and then at the end you turn it in. And I was fortunate that mine, uh, did well. And then I probably should have run with it afterwards, but I didn't have the conviction in myself to do so at the time. Though I now regret it. Um, well, I shouldn't say I regret it. I don't regret it because I wouldn't be here today if I had done other things.

Speaker B: But, uh, it was something you learned from.

Speaker A: Something I definitely learned from. It was a classic. I had written this, you know, significant thing, if you will. Um, that it was, it was focused on the, the inflating at the time. I graduated in 2003, so it was 2002, 2003. It was focused on the inflating housing bubble at the time. Um, and basically what it did was go through different metropolitan areas and kind of chart out what was happening compared to previous bubbles and patterns in previous bubbles and then did a prediction of when the bubble would burst. Um, because that's the thing about bubbles. Bubbles are actually fine to ride the wave on. You just don't want to be riding that last minute wave on. Want to be going up.

Speaker B: Yeah, I have some family and friends that, uh, rode, uh, the bubble all the way up and then they took the slope all the way down.

Speaker A: All the way down. Which is the most common story. Right. So, um, I was very fascinated by the concept of just bubbles in general. I mean, I still am. I think it's really interesting to think about how you can get irrational exuberance around a particular topic that leads to, you know, um, prices significantly, uh, diverging themselves from fundamentals. Um, and then it keeps going for like a long time. Yeah. So I've always been very interested in them, I think, since I first heard about, about the tulip craze, like, way back when, I don't know, grade school. Um, so this was an opportunity for me to continue that in a much more meaningful way. And yeah, I didn't. Even though I got like, you know, I got a prize for it, I got all these accolades for it. Um, and I didn't have enough confidence in it to then go and try to do something more with it. I thought I completed this task. The task was write a thesis and get a good grade or do a good job. I completed the task. I did a really good job.

Speaker B: Yeah, and you got the grade and

Speaker A: I got the next. And you graduated And I graduated.

Speaker B: You know, that was the prize.

Speaker A: That was the thing. Right. Um, and I didn't. You know, I definitely kicked myself in later times because it turned out it was more right than wrong. And, um. But it's. It's. You know, it was a big. It was a good lesson for me. I was not ready at that point, graduating from. I mean, when I was graduating from college, I didn't know what I wanted to be. I didn't know what I wanted to do. Um, I had a real wide variety of experiences in my kind of summers in college and my work during college. Um, and I had no idea how to put that into a career or career path or anything. Um, and I definitely wasn't. I didn't come out of undergrad being like, I'm ready to start my own company either. Going back to the thesis thing, I didn't believe in my. Myself enough then. Um, to do that or to build

Speaker B: out, like, a whole investment theory. Yeah.

Speaker A: And to think, like, I have a view that's different and valuable than anybody else out there. Right. Um, which is part of the crazy view that you have to have to start a company.

Speaker B: It's true.

Speaker A: Which is part of why, like, we're all insane.

Speaker B: Yes. Like, yes, of course I could do this. Well, what do you know about that? Nothing.

Speaker A: Yeah. But I can do it well, why hasn't someone else done well? Because they're not XYZ and I am xyz.

Speaker B: Um, or other people have done it. I could just do it better.

Speaker A: Exactly. I can learn from what they did wrong and do it better or faster, whatever. So I definitely did not have that out of college. Um, so I went. I thought, okay, what is called, quote unquote, the hardest job that I can apply for and the quote, unquote, best job I can apply for and that I thought was going into investment banking. Um, so I did that whole recruiting process, and thankfully it worked out, and I went and started investment banking at JPMorgan. And I hadn't done a summer internship. I was one of three people out of a training class of over 100 that hadn't done a summer internship in investment banking.

Speaker B: Oh, wow.

Speaker A: So I walked in and everybody's all, like, turbo. Y. Really ready to be bankers.

Speaker B: Yeah. Invest in bankers. I just kind of. I'm ready, I guess. Let's go.

Speaker A: I like math. What are we doing here? Um, I find finance really interesting and fascinating. Um. Uh, but, yeah, that was definitely not for me. Um, but I was really fortunate, again, that I found an opportunity to Go and move within J.P. morgan.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And that ended up being really good.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it ended up being really good. But you said you also found out that it wasn't for you. But like, how long did you stay there?

Speaker A: I only stayed there a year. I would have stayed there a lot longer. Um, this is another like, straight, ah, up luck thing that was, I think, hugely impactful to my career path. Which is a, uh, good friend of mine. Um, still to this day is one of my best friends was working at JP Morgan on the trading floor and she knew how unhappy I was in banking. But I was gonna like, I would have sweat that out for I don't even know how long because that was.

Speaker B: Well, you know how to grind. You learned how to grind, right?

Speaker A: I know how to grind. I know how to grind. I like to excel at things. I like to be good at things. Um, and so I would have just done it. Um, and I mean I did do it for a very short period of time. Um, and she like, was all over me being like, this is not the right thing for you. You need to look for other jobs within the firm. And I thought, hey, it's too early, I'm too young. I got to prove myself first. I can't go popping around, um, without proving myself. And she actually ended up getting me an interview on the derivatives desk. Like she went over to them, talked to them about me, told me about me, said, you gotta meet this girl. Like she hustled for me. Um, she now actually is a, you know, very successful talent. She does talent placement at the very higher levels. It's real skill she has.

Speaker B: Turns out you're like, evidently she was very good at that.

Speaker A: She crushes it and does very senior hires across VC and ah, VCNP right now. But, um, she really pushed me to do it. Um, and then I went in and within this classic markets, within 24 hours I had a job from, had a job offer from when I first went in. I threw together a resume because I didn't have one. Um, and then I had to figure out how to tell my current team that I was leaving my current bosses that I was leaving and I was leaving early. You don't leave after one year. Like, you don't leave after one year, you leave after two years. Maybe you really leave after three years. And that's kind of like the way it's supposed to be. So I was, I was, I was bucking the trend.

Speaker B: Um, but still with jb, JP Morgan, just jp, just the investment banking side to the derivative, the Derivative side.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, um. And they. Everybody was really wonderful and supportive. Honestly, they were really wonderful and supportive. I had a call with these two unbelievable women who had recruited me. Um, Constance Coleman and Liz Meyers. Liz is like the global of everything over at JPMorgan now. She's unbelievable. Constance. Unbelievable. These women are, like, unbelievable. I had a call with them about it, and I remember them, like, really taking the time to think through this choice with me and not be like, we hired you into this job. You need to stay in this job. Right, yeah. Um, they thought through it. They thought, hey, derivatives is really related to everything you studied in school. And, um, risk is something you've always found really interesting. And, you know, um. And it was a job where I would get sales, I would get trading, I would get product development. Like, I would get to do all these things that I wasn't getting to do in investment banking. And so they helped me make the decision to move over.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, what a. Like, it's such a beautiful story of so many people in your life that supported you. Right. Like, oh, my gosh, you had the one friend that's like, I see you.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I also see you're not going to do anything about this 100%. I'm going to step in.

Speaker A: I'm going to do something.

Speaker B: Yeah. And. And then, you know, getting worried that you're going to leave. And they weren't like, oh, this is about us.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: They're like, no, I want this to be about you. Let's talk about you and what's best for you. I mean, what a.

Speaker A: What.

Speaker B: What a wonderful example. There's, uh. There's no doubt that I think a lot of people, like, there's. There's this general idea of US Exceptionalism, but there's also this idea of individual exceptionalism. Right. Like. Like, everything that you get is because you did it.

Speaker A: And you worked so hard, and you work so harder and longer than everyone, man.

Speaker B: That's not it at all. Is. Is totally a group effort.

Speaker A: It's totally a group effort. And it's totally a. Like, uh. Gosh, it sounds so cheesy what I'm about to say, but I'll say it. You. You get the energy back that you put out into the world. M. Right. So, um, I said it before, like, I genuinely care very deeply for the people in my life, and they care very deeply for me. And that is, if I have, you know, being all midlife crisis, y. Looking back at my life, um, that's the greatest thing about my life. By far. It's the greatest thing about any fancy school that I went to. It's the greatest thing about any fancy job that I had. It's any accomplishment I've ever achieved. It's all, um, the people I met while doing it or the connections I formed while doing it. And that's like, I've been really fortunate in that.

Speaker B: Here's where the myth of the successful entrepreneur can get out of control. We like to hear dramatic stories about individuals who bent reality to their vision and put a dent in the universe. But it's still just a heroic myth. The real story and the true accomplishment are about people, the relationships that were formed and the lives that were touched. It's cliche, but true that nobody ever reached their deathbed wishing they'd spent more time at the office. The world needs a new story about entrepreneurship, one where we see the people, the work, and the cost is a messy, holistic picture and a venture that is still very much worthwhile. So you moved over to the derivatives. You got to use your, uh, Orphe powers.

Speaker A: Look at you, Orphe.

Speaker B: Uh, so what, like, kind of what, what happened next? And how, how, how did your career path continue to help, uh, you become someone who is willing to start a company? Right?

Speaker A: I mean, anybody can be willing to start a company.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a whole other thing. You know what's funny is, uh, lots of times all you need is that willingness.

Speaker A: Right? It's the crazy. It's going back to the craziness piece. Um, so I was in derivatives at JP Morgan for 11 years. Um, so I spent a long time there. And, um, I had, I would say I had a really good experience there. In general, my experience at JPMorgan was a very good one. I met unbelievable people, found great mentors, sponsors, all these kinds of good things. Um, I can't say enough good things about the people at that company. Um, but I got to the point where I felt like I'd done selling, I'd done some trading, and I'd done some product development. In particular, I was responsible for, um, helping launch our quantitative investment solutions. So there were algorithmic trading strategies that we're selling to corporates and different kinds of asset managers to either add or reduce risk, basically. Um, and we had done all this work to build out this product suite. We generated all this excitement. We're about to launch it, and we found out at the 11th hour that the. We were launching it through swap vehicles. And because they were swaps, uh, they were under Dodd Frank. So it Meant that we had to do a bunch of disclosures related to Dodd Frank and we didn't have what we needed to do the disclosures. Um, and so we were going to be in a situation where we'd done all this work to build this product and then we couldn't actually like trade it or make money on it. Um, couldn't get our tech team to build it. I often joke that they said they could do it in Q5, which is actually exactly what they said. Um, and uh, which is common at fis, like internal tech teams are often burdened down with existing stuff, not new stuff. So a friend of mine, uh, and I just scotch taped something together nights and weekends so that we would be able to still do the launch. It was not pretty, but it worked and it satisfied the compliance requirements we needed to, to be able to go and trade this product. Um, so for me that was a big eye opener that, hey, I knew the world was changing. Well, it's like I knew the world was changing as far as what machine learning was starting to do in financial services. So this was like 2014, 15. Okay. So like it was starting to do some really cool stuff. Dodd Frank was still working its way through the system. I mean, it's still working its way through the system. And um, and I was like, wait, JP Morgan doesn't have all the stuff that they need for Dodd Frank? Like, what the heck? If JP Morgan can't do it, who else can't do it? Um, and then I also like looked ahead in boss's boss and did I want their life and did I want their job? And the answer was no. And so being a, I would say reasonably to extremely motivated person and ambitious person, I was like, well, if it's not here, where is it? Um, I also was at a point where I was coming up for MD and I was starting to have all of the kind of talks that you do around md. And I had one talk in particular with um, a really amazing senior woman who told me about how I would start to have to effectively. She called it putting on different faces, but how I would effectively need to start to be a little bit more hard nosed and you know, whatever at work than I had been, um, to get to this next rung of promotion.

Speaker B: Um, and for our listeners, just, could you just. What does MD stand for?

Speaker A: Uh, Managing Director. So the classic steps within an investment bank of titles is you start off as an analyst. It's very confusing because in many places analysts mean something totally different. But in the world of an investment Bank. You start off in an analyst, then associate, then vice president. I remember when I came vice president, and my boyfriend at the time's mom told everybody I was the vice president of JPMorgan.

Speaker B: You're like, that's right.

Speaker A: The. I was like, I'm not the, um, vice president, executive director, managing director, then managing director. So managing director is the equivalent of call it partner at other businesses. Right. Um, and um, so I was an executive director kind of getting ready for that next level. And I remember thinking about how sad it was to the concept that I would have to be a different person at work than the person that I was. And then I started doing the math on the hours one spends at work, especially in the job that I was in. Um, and it's a lot and it's more than the hours you spend awake not at work. So I had a big existential. Sorry, um, M. I don't know. Discovery wasn't a crisis of like, do I want to spend all my work time being fundamentally kind of like a different person than I am? Um, and I didn't want to do that. So I tried to figure out, okay, what the heck do I do now? And I'd always thought about going to business school. I'd take the GMAT like years before just to kind of have it. But I'd never actually gone the next step and applied. Um, and so I decided, okay, I'm gonna apply. My GMAT score was about to expire. Nothing like a deadline to motivate you. Yeah, I'm like, I'm not taking that thing again. So if I'm ever going to business school, I'm going now. So I applied, um, and then I was fortunate. I pick places, um, and then I was getting ready to do it and I found out that there was going to be layoffs, um, that were going to kind of heavily impact my team. Mhm. Um, I tried to. I had got pulled into office saying that a couple of my teammates were going to get fired in a couple days. And I was pulled into the office with the intent of listening, uh, in on them so that I could better take over their accounts afterwards, basically. So that's what I was being told to do. Um, these were people I was friends with. I just found out they were going to get fired. One of them had three kids. Obviously the first thing I do was told them I have more loyalty to those people than I do to the organization at that time. Um, and also I felt very offended by the concept that I would spy on my friends and Colleagues to get information before they got the acts. No, thank you. Um. Um. And I told them I was planning to go back to business school. Said I could raise my hand and resign now and then, maybe save one of the people that was gonna get fired. And, uh, I, um, was told by a person, I won't say their name of that it wasn't my decision who got fired and who didn't, and it was his decision, and it was a big ego thing about it. And, um, and then I said, okay, bye, bye. I'm done. And people thought I was insane because I was, like, mid-30s, leaving a really good job on a really good path to go back to business school full time. People thought I was looney tunes, but, I mean, maybe I am. I'm a little looney tunes. You have to be.

Speaker B: Yeah. The power of introspection is such a huge skill in leadership, because when you are a leader, though, you always have mentors to reach out to and you have, like, team members to reach out to and stuff like that. It is a bit of a lonely path. And if you can't get outside of yourself and look at a situation objectively and be like, I'm feeling this way, or I don't feel good about this. Why is that? And be able to have that conversation with yourself, um, you'll miss out on a lot of learning. So I just love hearing that story that you are in that spot, you're in that area, and you were able to have that clarity of thought and the ability to go through that introspection to make something that, you know, for a lot of other people sounds like they were like, uh, wrong decision. And you're, like, wrong.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: M. Right decision. But thank you for your input. Yeah. Ah.

Speaker A: I mean, and it was. It's like anytime you're making a big decision, like, most people thought it was nuts. And then the people that really cared about me thought it was a great idea.

Speaker B: There you go.

Speaker A: And you could, like. I mean, it was so clear. It was so clear. Um, and then, you know, was. It was scary, but wonderful. Right. I got to. I got to take time. I got to take, like, four months off, because I wasn't planning to leave right away. But then this whole layoff thing came, and I was like, okay, I guess I'm leaving now. And, uh, so I got to take, like, four months off. I got to travel. Just amazing. I, like, I traveled a lot in that time. Um, and then I got to come into starting business school with, like, a very free mind and a mind that was very focused on, you know, how do I figure out how to make this big transition from a large company into being either starting something or joining something. Early stage. I didn't know if I wanted to actually be a founder or just join something, uh, that had recently started. I knew I wanted something more entrepreneurial. Um, and then it was hilarious. In business school, you get all of the normal recruiting paths coming out. Um, and the best thing I did the whole time was just stay so far away from it.

Speaker B: You knew what you wanted.

Speaker A: You knew what I wanted.

Speaker B: You. You knew what you were going there for.

Speaker A: Knew what I was going there for. And I think that that's why a lot of people don't get as much out of business school as they want to is because they go there. Maybe they go there for the social side. I was not going for the social side. Um, I was going. I definitely, like, went on some awesome trips, as everybody in business school seems to do. But, um, uh, they were like. I went on a trip to East Africa to learn about entrepreneurship in East Africa. I went on an, um, entrepreneurship focused trip to Israel. And you met with businesses and you met with VCs in the region. And you got to understand how these emerging economies were working and how important innovation was and how central innovation was into these emerging and reshaping economies and that. I just freaking loved it. I loved it. I don't think I missed a single class. I went to every class. Nobody does that in business school. But I was like, I'm here, I'm spending my time.

Speaker B: I'm learning. Yeah, well, you knew your why.

Speaker A: Yeah, I knew my why. I knew my why. Two whys. I knew my why. Um, so it was a really good experience for me. And then I was fortunate to meet my co founder, Dimitri, through a mutual friend. He wasn't at school and he was trying to. He had built a really cool technology that. And he was working as a quantum finance and he wanted to talk to someone about other applications in finance that he was thinking about. And our, uh, friends. My friend linked us up and we started chatting and you know.

Speaker B: Yeah. Did you, did you realize at that point in time, as you were looking to found a company and partner with Dimitri, uh, did you realize how well prepared you were for that?

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Like, I mean, I mean, no one's ever actually prepared to start a business, just to be clear. But you had this fabulous example of your parents. You'd been able to be in the trenches to work out. To work out. You've. You did product development you had to do sales, like you had to do operations all through J.P. morgan. And uh, then you went to business school. It's like, like, man, it almost seems like, yeah, of course this is what Laura's going to do and now's the best time because she's so well prepared. But I'm guessing that's not where your head was at.

Speaker A: No, it wasn't at all. No. I, um, I wanted to do it and I had the, I'll call it courage, I guess, to do it. I wanted to do it. But then we got, we had a real tough time in the VC circuit, like early on in the company. So anytime you think, you know, if your ego's feeling nice and good, talk

Speaker B: to a couple VCs, go try to

Speaker A: raise some money for a early stage company that doesn't, you know, pre customer, pre revenue. Um, so I would say, at least in those VCs minds, I did not have any of the right because I didn't go to, I didn't go to Stanford. I hadn't worked at a faang company, I hadn't, uh, you know, whatever. I wasn't a second time founder with a successful exit, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So for me, the patterns made sense.

Speaker B: In a moment, you're gonna hear Laura claim that she isn't a risk taker, she's a risk calculator. And while that may be true, there's no question that she has used those calculations to make decisions that few people are brave enough to make. It takes a lot of fortitude to face rejection from multiple investors and still forge ahead. But that's also why it's so important to find your people. The ones who believe in you and can provide the vital encouragement and feedback to keep the going, to keep growing. As Laura said, the people who really care about you are the ones you should be listening to.

Speaker A: Well, obviously I'm a bit of a risk taker. I would never consider myself like a risk taker. I am a risk calculator and I take calculated risks. And uh, I don't consider myself in general a risk taker. So I, you know, if to, to your point, I kind of like gathered up all the goodies I thought I needed or all the skills I thought I needed to be able to do it. Um, and I really focused on that at business school, like taking the classes that would help round out my toolkit. Um, but then you go out and like, none of it works. Like you think it's gonna work.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: You know, and that's part of the Fun of it though. Like that's part of the fun and the excitement. Uh, yeah.

Speaker B: How do you adapt?

Speaker A: How do you adapt? How do you adapt? And that was the hardest thing for me in early days and I still struggle with it. But I think I found better coping mechanisms was managing the roller coaster. That was the hardest thing for me. I got really excited at the ups and then at the downs I would get really bummed. And so I had to really start to figure out how, um, to kind of like dampen that curve a bit because it was taking too much of a toll on me early on.

Speaker B: A lot of whipsaw.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm a person that likes to get excited about like I have a natural call it bias towards excitement. Mhm. And it's a hard. And it's hard to tell yourself, like, no, you gotta like tone it down a little bit. Tone down, yeah.

Speaker B: Or when you are not personally excited because you just got punched in the face. How can you still step up right. During that time to pull people with you 100%.

Speaker A: You got to lick your wounds yourself. Um, especially in early days. Right. Um, that's why, I mean, hey, I feel so grateful for my co founder. I have a ton of admiration for folks that are able to be solar founders. Um, but you know, for, for me, he's been huge when I have those moments because he's the person I can go to and like not feel like I have to be on. Like when you're a founder, you feel like you have to be on a lot all the time, you know.

Speaker B: Well, um, I think it's. I honestly think it's not even just a feeling.

Speaker A: Uh, you do have to. You're right. You do have to.

Speaker B: Yeah. Like you are always being watched.

Speaker A: So true.

Speaker B: Uh, it really doesn't matter where you are, you're always being watched.

Speaker A: So true.

Speaker B: And um, that is, that is difficult and it's very draining.

Speaker A: Yeah. And how do you answer the question when something just went not the way you planned or not the way you wanted to, which happens?

Speaker B: What are we going to do now?

Speaker A: What are we going to do now? And how do you answer the question when you're not event that night, how's everything going? They don't want to hear the real answer to that question. They want to hear. They want to hear a version of your sales pitch. And that's also part of, I mean, not to give an AFT plug, but it's part of what I love so much about aft. Um, like I feel like I now have found the communities where I don't feel like I don't have that pressure to be on. And I can have those more real conversations oftentimes with other founders, but it doesn't have to be other founders. And uh, I have developed some of my best friendships over, like from the stratified time period when we're able to get to that real talk soon and where I can ask the question of how. I have a number of founders where we do regular, either bimonthly or monthly, just sessions where we get on the phone and we each get to just talk about all the stuff that is worrying us or hurting us or tough and help each other through it. Because oftentimes you don't have a lot of outlets for that.

Speaker B: Yeah. And for those listening, if you're not familiar with aft, it's the association for Financial Technology, which is a small group of, uh, executives who are building technology and other services for banks and credit unions. Uh, I think the main point that you're talking about, which uh, definitely speaks to my heart as well, is you got to find your communities.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Find your communities and find the people in there that in those communities that you don't have to be on for and they actually want to know about that.

Speaker B: They don't expect anything of you.

Speaker A: They don't expect anything of you. They're not trying to value you, they're just for you. They're not trying to evaluate you. Right. They're just trying, you know, they ideally care about you as a person, you care about them as a person. And then you want to help each other. So you can't help people if you don't know what's really going on. Which has been the other. Call it big learning of me. For me as an entrepreneur, for as much as you need to always be on and need to always be selling your business, you also have to figure out the people that you can tell the real to.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Because otherwise you are alone.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well. And honestly, you're a little bit of a ticking time bomb.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And the truth is the reason why going back to the VC stu, like the reason why VCs invested in multiple time founders is because you learn a lot.

Speaker B: You survived, you learn a lot and

Speaker A: oh, you wanted to do it again. It actually makes all the sense in the world. Right. Um, so, you know, if you can, if you can befriend those kinds of folks and then, you know, you help them out and they help you out and you ideally live the mantra that I try to leave in life, which is make no mistake twice. Then there you go.

Speaker B: Yeah, there's plenty of other mistakes to make, 100%.

Speaker A: Go try something.

Speaker B: Go repeat the same ones.

Speaker A: There's so much more room to cover.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. And the Stratify story and the success that you all have had has just been, um, awesome. I think one of the things as we were talking about the podcast that you had mentioned, that I just want to touch on briefly before we wrap up, is you mentioned early on you have young kids, and you told me that's been really impactful on how you now think about business. And I would love just to hear a little bit about that, uh, before we wrap up.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, thank you for asking. So I have two sons. Um, Axel is four and almost a half, and Aiden is two and a half. Uh, so both of them I had during Stratify. So as we often joke, Stratify is my first baby. Um, and then I had two more human babies. And, uh, was really, particularly with Axel, my older one, it was really hard figuring out, um, both what to do through the pregnancy and what to do after. Um, so again, this was a place where Covid was kind of. I was lucky with COVID We were fundraising when I was pregnant with Axel, and it was during COVID So thankfully, I didn't have to meet anybody in person. So nobody that I was raising money from knew I was pregnant.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's actually, uh. We probably don't have time to dive into it now, but that.

Speaker A: There's a lot there. Um, there's a lot there. Um, and then I had this weird feeling at the end where I was like, when we were starting to kind of get term sheets and start to put the round together, and I was like, wait, I haven't told people. I really need to tell them, but how do I tell them? And are they going to pull. Blah, blah, blah. Um, and I'll say, thankfully, the experience I had was. And maybe this is because we had already done the vetting, right, to get, call it, the bad eggs out of the bunch. But I got no backlash when I told people that I was pregnant. Um, and that at that point I was, like, about to pop. Um, but I think it was a lot because we had kind of, like, weaned away the people that maybe would have care. Through other parts of the, I would say, process, we developed on how to get investors that match with us. Um, because I think we've been really lucky to find investors that really match well with us. Um, and then, you know, I didn't take any time off and all this kind of stuff, uh, after having the baby. And that was a mistake. Like, it was a mistake. So. Mistake for me. It was a mistake for the baby. It was a mistake for the business. Um, given what was going on at the time, I didn't have the luxury to make a different choice. But then when I was having Aiden, I. I did. I had him. He was. His birthday's at the end of October, which is kind of nice timing, right? Kind of rolling into the holidays vs. Vs. Axel's born in March a little bit harder. Um, and I took time and my team supported me through that. And that was a big, I don't know, big lesson for me on, like, taking what you need and, you know, putting your. Putting your oxygen mask on first and all this kind of stuff. And then for them, now I just have. I don't want to work all the time. I don't want to work all the time. And I don't think that. I never have thought that the ideal should be that you work all the time. Um, I believe in output versus input, I.e. quantity of hours. And so I am more like, I will block out my calendar to go do the. When Aiden starts school, and there's like, two weeks where you spend, like, an hour in the classroom every day to, like, get them used to going to school. I will block out my calendar and make sure I'm there. I will not go. You know, I once went to a conference on Axel's birthday. It freaking gutted me. Like, it gutted me. I will never do that again, you know? Um, so I feel like I've, like, learned through having kids just how important it is to find that whatever you want to call it, balance, strike that, whatever equilibrium, whatever you want to call it, between work and life. Um, and I think it's made me better. Like, I think I'm a better leader. Um, I think I'm better at my. I think I'm better at it because of all of this, which is counterintuitive to the way I used to think about, like, work. Like, you need to put in more hours. You need to put in more hours. You need to put in more hours.

Speaker B: Yeah, just keep grinding.

Speaker A: Just keep grinding. Just keep grinding. Um, so it's changed my outlook quite significantly, and I want that for the team, too. Like, there are some founders who want to have a culture of, like, we work every night and weekend, and I don't want that for our company. Uh, we work nights and weekends when we have to, and we Don't. When we don't have to.

Speaker B: Yeah. There are times and seasons where it's necessary.

Speaker A: Yes. And you have to do it then.

Speaker B: And you have to recognize it as just a season.

Speaker A: It's a time and season. It's not our culture. It's not the way we are going to win. Okay. Like, we are going to win in other ways. Um, and again, we'll grind as much as we have. And we, you know, we always deliver on time and in full and all these things. But I think also we're able to do that because our people aren't burnt out all the time. Yep.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think the other analogy that I hear a lot, you know, are we doing a sprint? Are we doing a marathon?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, you know, I don't think that analogy is. Is. Is perfect because in a marathon, you try and keep a consistent pace for all 26.2 miles.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Which is impossible, really, what you're doing here. But I think. I think maybe an adventure race. Right. Like, let's go with adventure race. Like, see what we find. Yeah. There's. We have a week to get from point A to point B. We can't just work the whole time. Right. Anyways, but thank you so much for sharing that and, uh, what wisdom you've been able to garner throughout your whole experience. And quite honestly, I wish we could just keep talking, but I do have to wrap it up. Uh, but we do want to end with our two typical questions. So the first one is, do you have any non business books that you'd recommend?

Speaker A: Yeah, Um, I would love to say I'm an avid reader. I'm not. I'm an avid listener, so I do all of mine on audible and unfortunately, most of them. It counts. It counts. It's gotta count. Come on. Um, most of them are business books, but one that I've read recently that I think is really interesting, it's called when the Going is Good. Uh, or, sorry, when the Going Was Good. Um, and it's by Graydon Carter, who was editor of Vanity fair in the 80s and 90s. Um, and it's about like the. Call it. Heyday of print media. He was right after Tina Brown and like. So it's a very interesting look at a totally different industry, uh, that I really like. I tend to be a nonfiction gal.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks. I love that recommendation. Uh, and we'll make sure to put that in the show notes. All right. And the last one. Is a leader born or is a leader made?

Speaker A: This one is so, so tough. And I obviously want to answer somewhere in the middle, but I won't cop out and give that kind of answer.

Speaker B: Oh, you're going to commit to one?

Speaker A: I think you. Well, I mean. Well, you want to know my real thought and then I can commit if I have to. My real thought. No, no, my real thought is it is, of course, a combination. I think you are born with natural leash, but I think leadership is a skill that is then honed over the experiences in your life and the examples in your life. If I had to pick, I would say made overboard. Like, if I had to pick, I'd say made. Um, but I think it's a combination of both. Um, for me, it is like I had some intrinsic desire to bring people together towards a shared common goal from when I was born. Like, I had something like that in it.

Speaker B: Yeah, but you said four years old, right? You were getting people.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: Like, literally.

Speaker A: Yeah. Like, one of the best things I did was at one of them I did was I asked three questions and it was like, what's your favorite color? What's your favorite animal? Like, what's your favorite number? And the answers were what I thought. So people had to, like, they didn't know, they just had to enter it. But, like, you won if you picked what I thought. The best things work. It's a great game.

Speaker B: I love that.

Speaker A: I love it. It's a great game. But, yeah, no, it's all about the people that you get to know over the course of your life and the examples that they set for you. It's all about that.

Speaker B: Well, what a fabulous conversation. Laura. Thank you so much for joining. I'm walking away just completely filled with amazing, uh, lessons and inspiration and, dare I say, some excitement that has just come off of you and entered into my life. So thank you so much.

Speaker A: That is so very kind. Nathan. Um, I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much for having me on.

Speaker B: The 19th century philosopher, poet and author Ralph Waldo Emerson once gave this advice. To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. Of course, you also have to develop the wisdom to tell the difference between intransigence and. And self knowledge. As a leader, you won't be successful if you're swayed by opinions and peer pressure. But you also won't find many friends if you can't practice flexibility and openness to new ideas. That's why you need people who will love you when you're wrong and who deeply care about helping you become the best version of yourself at stratify. Laura Kornhauser is building a company where both of these dynamics exist. Where it's safe to take calculated risks and still be wrong. Where employees aren't reduced to points on an org chart. Even if the right decision for everyone is to part ways, that might be the hardest thing for new leaders and their teams to accept. It is possible to love and care for each other and for some partnerships to end. You've heard me say this before. Business is personal because businesses are made up of people. The real challenge is to hold your head high, trust in your community, and believe in yourself, even when the world is trying to tell you something different. That's what authenticity is really about. The courage to be yourself and live out loud. Laura Courthouser's story is a wonderful example of that principle put into practice. It is such a gift that we could share it with you. Thanks again for listening. You'll find the link to Laura's book recommendations in the show notes you've been listening to Builder Banker Hacker Chief, a podcast produced and distributed by Z Suite Technologies Incorporated. All rights reserved. I'm your host Nathan Baumeister, co founder of Z Suite Tech. This show is co produced, written and edited by Zach Garver. Sound engineering was done by Nathan Butler at Nimblewit Productions. If you enjoyed the episode, please take a moment to leave us a review or share the episode. This helps other people to find our show. You can also listen on all major podcast platforms including Apple Podcasts, YouTube Music and Spotify.

Speaker A: I'm batman.