Navigating the Price Increase Conversation

1 - > Mark Wainwright: There comes a point in most client-consultant 2 - > relationships when the consultant needs to ask for more 3 - > money, and it can be tricky. 4 - > How do we navigate these conversations? 5 - > Let's talk about it in the podcast 6 - > John Tyreman: All right. 7 - > Welcome doer-sellers, marketers, firm owners, consultants of all 8 - > stripes to another episode of "Breaking Biz Dev."

I'm John, 9 - > he's Mark, and today we're going to talk about how to ask for 10 - > price increases. 11 - > This is gonna be a fun episode, Mark. 12 - > Mark Wainwright: Yeah, I have multiple immediate situations in 13 - > my consulting work. 14 - > I deal with this all the time.

15 - > there's a ton of energy, a lot of focus that goes into the 16 - > original proposal. 17 - > Sometimes there's these big documents, sometimes there's 18 - > interviews, strenuous sort of intense negotiation around price 19 - > and scope and all that kind of stuff, and there's so much 20 - > energy that's put on that. 21 - > But, you know, fast-forward six months down the road or so, and 22 - > everybody looks around and says, "Oh, shoot, we have to go sort 23 - > of, kind of do that all over again."

And they, they don't put 24 - > near the amount of energy and attention to it, and it doesn't 25 - > go well. 26 - > John Tyreman: Asking for more. 27 - > So what does that look like, Mark? 28 - > I mean, there's a few different, like, uh, you can ask for more 29 - > in a few different ways, and we've got a couple of kinda like 30 - > different scenarios here.

31 - > So why don't you paint a picture for our audience? 32 - > What are we talking about? 33 - > Mark Wainwright: different industries have, different 34 - > situations, maybe project-based firms, you know, engineering 35 - > firms, architecture firms, you know, all that kind of stuff, 36 - > right? 37 - > It's, it's they'll have these things called, uh, additional 38 - > service requests or additional service agreements, it's some, 39 - > some amount of work that, that was maybe unexpected, maybe 40 - > outside of the scope, they have a, a process that they use to, 41 - > go ask for more, maybe there's change.

42 - > These are also called change orders, you know, that are 43 - > driven by changes in scope. 44 - > that's a term that, people use. 45 - > we're also talking about annual increases, and I have worked 46 - > with wealth management firms in the past, and, you know, they'll 47 - > charge their clients a, percentage based on their assets 48 - > under management. 49 - > And at some point, those relationships, you know, could 50 - > be early on, it could be a years-old relationship.

51 - > Sometimes they have to go back to their clients and make an 52 - > adjustment in that, in that percentage. 53 - > Um, and I, I've experienced this in the work that, that I do. 54 - > We've talked a little bit about, how I structure my business. 55 - > I'm based on a, on a set monthly amount that is, agreed to with 56 - > my clients.

57 - > And if I work with clients long enough, I start looking at that 58 - > number, and I say,"Hey, we might need to change that." I don't 59 - > know what's... 60 - > You're, you're, you've done a similar thing, yeah? 61 - > John Tyreman: Yeah.

62 - > Just recently actually I've, uh, my business has grown to the 63 - > point where I've had needed to increase my overheads, bring on 64 - > an accounting firm, um, start to hire some folks to help support 65 - > service delivery. 66 - > So I've, I've had to recently go through this, and I think that's 67 - > one of the reasons why I think this was top of mind in bringing 68 - > this up in our conversations. 69 - > But yeah, this is a, this is a tricky situation. 70 - > It's really tough to navigate, can be very stressful.

71 - > and then it's a challenge in communications and expectation 72 - > setting. 73 - > So yeah, this is, this is definitely top of mind for me. 74 - > Mark Wainwright: for sure. 75 - > And, and then there's just one last little example that, I 76 - > frown upon, that whole hourly billing thing.

77 - > a ton of organizations and professional services, have 78 - > hourly rates that they base, you know, when they're selling 79 - > themselves, 60 minutes at a time, And a lot of times those, 80 - > those rates are impacted by cost of living increases, you know, 81 - > just regular annual increases to kind of keep pace with inflation 82 - > or, you know, promotions or whatever else. 83 - > and you could be an individual that's been working with a 84 - > particular client for a long time, and you've had a 85 - > particular hourly rate, and they're fine with that and 86 - > everything else.

87 - > And then, it's like,"Hey, it's Bob. 88 - > Same wonderful relationship. 89 - > We love working with you guys. 90 - > By the way, I've got an increase in my hourly rate."

And they'll 91 - > say,"Wait, so we're gonna get the exact same thing from you 92 - > this year that we got last year, but we're gonna have to pay more 93 - > for it?" And Bob says,"Oh, yeah. 94 - > Yep. 95 - > John Tyreman: Sorry.

96 - > Mark Wainwright: Sorry." 97 - > John Tyreman: It's really uncomfortable for everyone. 98 - > So the - I guess, Mark, like w- how have you approached this in 99 - > the past? 100 - > And maybe I can share how I've approached this in the past too.

101 - > Mark Wainwright: sure, the fundamental problem here is that 102 - > it's like you said, it's just uncomfortable. 103 - > It's hard, one of the initial things that kind of happens is 104 - > people get emotional. 105 - > Uh, they get defensive. 106 - > You know, they, uh, if you're a consultant, you try to 107 - > rationalize, this, this extra amount.

108 - > If you're a client on the other end of it, you know, you're 109 - > dealing with constrained budgets. 110 - > You're dealing with, results that are still slightly beyond 111 - > your, your reach. 112 - > You know, you're, you're trying to work towards this thing, and 113 - > then, you know, you get hit on the side of the head with some 114 - > random price increase that was kind of unexpected, right? 115 - > So that's...

116 - > The, the, the problem is that it oftentimes catches everyone off 117 - > guard. 118 - > It's oftentimes kind of just, just unexpected. 119 - > We haven't, we haven't prepped well enough for it, so it's kind 120 - > of unexpected and n- it's, it's nobody likes it, right? 121 - > That's the fundamental problem is that actually the consultants 122 - > don't like asking for more money.

123 - > They're like, they just wanna deliver the work and get paid 124 - > for what the original amount was, and we're fine. 125 - > The clients don't like to get this. 126 - > So it's just a bad situation, right? 127 - > That is the fundamental problem is that nobody's happy about it, 128 - > John Tyreman: I suppose like, at least in my experience, what 129 - > happened in my, my case where I needed to go out and, and ask 130 - > for more for a price increase was because I'm bringing on 131 - > overhead.

132 - > Um, but there's also the scenario that has happened to me 133 - > in the past where we agree on an, in a, a scope of work, but 134 - > then that scope of work just kind of like balloons a little 135 - > bit. 136 - > You know, it, it, it expands in areas we didn't anticipate at 137 - > the onset. 138 - > And like you, Mark, I operate on a fixed monthly fee as well. 139 - > And so the - if the scope increases to a certain point, 140 - > you know, there's natural breaks where it makes sense to like 141 - > come together and have that conversation.

142 - > So that's kind of how I approached it was w- after that 143 - > 12-month contract,"Hey, let's take a look at the work we've 144 - > done. 145 - > This is what, this is what we're gonna need to do moving forward. 146 - > Here's a couple options," and we'll get into that down the 147 - > road. 148 - > But that, that's kind of how I approached it.

149 - > Mark Wainwright: sure, sure, sure. 150 - > Things change, right? 151 - > There's the, the, the scope changes. 152 - > We were doing A, B, C originally in this first period of time, 153 - > month, year, whatever it was.

154 - > Now we're doing B, C, and D, and D's more complex where we're 155 - > doing A, B, C, and D, or we've added that, you know. 156 - > So it's, they're shifting situations. 157 - > So, so it happens because the scope kind of changes. 158 - > John Tyreman: And w- what's fr- what's frustrating to me - Hold 159 - > on, Mark.

160 - > Before we go on, I just, I just, I, I just gotta get it, get this 161 - > off my chest. 162 - > What's frustrating is, is I've had this, this one client and, 163 - > um, we agreed on a scope of work, started down that, down 164 - > that path, everyone's happy, and then a month later,"Oh, w- w- 165 - > let - we need to do this. 166 - > Let's do this. 167 - > Let's do this," from the client.

168 - > And it's like, we just talked about this. 169 - > We just talked - That's, that's out of scope. 170 - > Mark Wainwright: And that can be driven by an, bunch of different 171 - > things. 172 - > And, and one is, a word that we touch on quite frequently is, 173 - > assumptions.

174 - > if you are not clear enough up front, the client can have some 175 - > assumptions that certain, certain elements, certain things 176 - > were just part of the deal. 177 - > You know, they were just included. 178 - > And it takes a little bit of time, I think, for everyone to 179 - > get more and more clear that, oh, in fact, it was not. 180 - > So now you're wrestling with this as a consultant, you're 181 - > wrestling with it and you're saying,"Oh man, I want to keep 182 - > this client happy, so maybe I just wrap that in."

consultant's 183 - > looking at it going,"Wow, that's a good bit of work. 184 - > I don't know if I can. 185 - > I want to keep those folks happy." So there's a little bit 186 - > of wrestling there.

187 - > So it brings some added tension to it as well. 188 - > another driver of this, I kind of touched on this before, is 189 - > that, you know, just annual increases, in some situations, 190 - > this can be sort of, there can be like a multiplier effect in 191 - > that maybe there's a team of consultants, and a lot of times 192 - > if people are familiar with this, like in the world of, you 193 - > know, large engineering projects or architecture projects, 194 - > whatever else, you'll have a, sort of a central consultant, 195 - > you know, they'll refer to it as the, the, the prime consultant 196 - > who is sort of the lead consultant, and then those folks 197 - > will need to go and hire a bunch of sub-consultants, other people 198 - > who have other expertise that need, need to, to, to be brought 199 - > to bear on the, on, on, on the project.

200 - > And the multiplier effect is, like it's not just you, it's not 201 - > just your organization, right? 202 - > All of those people who are working underneath you as 203 - > collaborators or sub-consultants, you know, come 204 - > knocking, right? 205 - > So it's not just you having to go. 206 - > It's like you have to go on behalf of like a team of a dozen 207 - > other consultants who are like, "Yeah, we're all asking for a 208 - > little bit more," and everything rolls up, and all of a sudden 209 - > the client's like,"Wait, what?

210 - > John Tyreman: I've definitely experienced 211 - > Mark Wainwright: yeah. 212 - > So it's, so, so, so all of that, that's, that's what happens, 213 - > right? 214 - > So, um, that is the biggest challenge. 215 - > So 216 - > John Tyreman: I do wanna call out inflation being one.

217 - > And I kn- uh, and I know that it's, it's kind of a, a 218 - > footnote, but, you know, a dollar today only buys about 72 219 - > cents of what it did just 10 years ago 220 - > Mark Wainwright: particularly in these longer term relationships, 221 - > we will underestimate or underprice this sort of 222 - > inflation, right? 223 - > We will, we will under- So if we're involved with a client for 224 - > five years, 10 years, whatever else it is, that's a long-term 225 - > relationship, right?

226 - > maybe for the first five years of the relationship, we've 227 - > completely underestimated, maybe not even asked for an increase 228 - > or just underestimated this. 229 - > So now we're at a point where it's, there's a painful 230 - > situation where the delta is huge. 231 - > if we'd have actually just kind of gone back every single year 232 - > and sort of had that conversation, things would be 233 - > better. 234 - > But now there's a big gap, 235 - > John Tyreman: right, so let's navigate.

236 - > How do, how do we get through this? 237 - > Mark Wainwright: you and I deal on the, sales and marketing end 238 - > of things, John, so obviously we're hyper-focused on the front 239 - > end, like what's happening upfront, you know, upstream of 240 - > all this stuff, clearly we're gonna, you know, shine a light 241 - > on that. 242 - > We're gonna, we're gonna highlight that. 243 - > So just like with the original sale, we have to use great 244 - > discovery even while we're under contract, as we're developing 245 - > these new scopes, added scopes, expanded, you know, whatever 246 - > else.

247 - > Things are gonna lead to these, conversations where you need to 248 - > ask for more. 249 - > We need to use good discovery, and discovery involves 250 - > understanding what is most important to the client so that 251 - > we can then price those things. 252 - > And then we have to use great three-option proposals with, 253 - > this spectrum of recommendations when we go ask for more money. 254 - > We cannot default back to the same old behaviors, even if the 255 - > original contract was done well.

256 - > Good discovery, good understanding led to s- you 257 - > know, three-option proposals with great recommendations. 258 - > The client picked option B, you know, everybody was happy, but 259 - > now at some point in the future, we're needing to ask for more 260 - > 'cause things have changed, things have grown, whatever 261 - > else. 262 - > We can't default back to that, "Oh, I'm just gonna give them 263 - > one number and have them say yes." What happens when we give 264 - > them the one number and we're sort of, you know, un- you know, 265 - > we're in a relationship now, we're under contract, right?

266 - > If we give them one number, we - I mean, even to a, to a more 267 - > severe degree than previously, they feel like we're forcing 268 - > their hand because we're already under contract, that we've got 269 - > sort of one arm behind, we've got their arm twisted behind 270 - > their back, and we're the consultants and we're just gonna 271 - > come in and we're gonna work them over again with one number, 272 - > we're gonna push them, and they're, they don't have any 273 - > options.

274 - > Like we've already done whatever, 50% of the work 275 - > already. 276 - > We can't change now, and now they're asking for more. 277 - > So ugh, that just, that just erodes trust and just beats up 278 - > the relationship. 279 - > John Tyreman: I think you bring up a, a really good point about, 280 - > and I just wanna highlight this for our listeners, is that price 281 - > increases, expanding scopes, redefining that, setting those 282 - > expectations is, should be treated just like a new business 283 - > development opportunity, a new sales opportunity 284 - > Mark Wainwright: even before we have to go ask for more, if 285 - > we're doing these great three-option proposals ahead of 286 - > time, we're foreshadowing the future properly with our three 287 - > options, everything else, we will find ourselves in these 288 - > sticky situations less and less.

289 - > And then when, you know, the situation comes up where we have 290 - > to ask more, you know, we've got that information to, to, you 291 - > know, kind of fall back on. 292 - > We've talked about this in the past, is that if we do great 293 - > three-option proposals ahead of time, a lot of times our high 294 - > priced option, the third option, whatever you want to call it, 295 - > sometimes it's the first option, but the high priced all-in 296 - > option is the, is the tool that we use to foreshadow the future, 297 - > right?

298 - > So if we've ha- if, if we've put that in front of the client and 299 - > they opted for, you know, option B, but they looked at that high 300 - > priced option like,"Wow, there's no way we're gonna end up 301 - > spending that much," you have that tool that, that everybody 302 - > looked at together a year ago or whatever it was, and now you're 303 - > gonna sit down and review things and you're like,"You know what? 304 - > We picked option B, but we f- lo and behold, we found ourselves 305 - > wandering towards, you know, this, this high option."

So 306 - > we're there right now, right? 307 - > We're at this high option because we had these two or 308 - > three things that weren't gonna be incorporated into that high 309 - > priced option that you opted out of, you explicitly opted out of, 310 - > and now here we are, right? 311 - > John Tyreman: I, I wanna link this to specialization and 312 - > having a process, a delivery process, because if you have 313 - > past experience and you are specialized in a specific 314 - > industry or delivering a specific kind of result, then 315 - > you're in a better position to be able to anticipate what those 316 - > changes are or what those new levels are, what that option C 317 - > is.

318 - > So, there's another benefit of specialization and being 319 - > hyper-focused on a specific slice of the market 320 - > Mark Wainwright: No, it's great. 321 - > That's a good point to interject right there for sure. 322 - > You're super in tune with the work you do, the results your 323 - > clients get, and any deviation from that, you know, you're 324 - > immediately aware of, right? 325 - > Like,"Oh, we're headed off track here," right?

326 - > We're not - We're, we're, we're, we're veering to the left 327 - > slightly, so not, not 328 - > John Tyreman: Been there before, totally. 329 - > I wanted to add another kind of bullet point to how you can 330 - > navigate price increases, and one of them is to sell that 331 - > higher price offering to new opportunities. 332 - > So if you found yourself in a position where... 333 - > I'll speak to my own experience.

334 - > I priced my services a few years ago around me, myself being a 335 - > solo consultant. 336 - > But as the business has grown, as I've gathered more 337 - > experience, I've been able to realize that, you know, I need 338 - > to increase my prices. 339 - > One thing that I can do is replace old clients with new 340 - > ones at that higher price point. 341 - > Mark Wainwright: You're listening to breaking biz dev 342 - > John Tyreman: the podcast that beats up, breaks down, and 343 - > redefines business development for the professional services 344 - > firms of tomorrow.

345 - > Your hosts are John Tyerman, founder of Red Cedar Marketing, 346 - > the podcast marketing company for experts and professional 347 - > services firms, 348 - > Mark Wainwright: And Mark Wainwright, principal consultant 349 - > and founder of Wainwright Insight, the fractional sales 350 - > manager and sales consultant to professional services firms. 351 - > John Tyreman: If you find this podcast helpful, please help us 352 - > by following the show and leaving a review on Apple 353 - > podcasts 354 - > Mark Wainwright: and now back to the show.

355 - > let's get slightly more specific on this, and I want to kind of 356 - > talk through sort of a scenario, 357 - > John Tyreman: Are you gonna quiz me, Mark? 358 - > Mark Wainwright: Sure. 359 - > I'll cr- I'll quiz you a little bit, John. 360 - > All right.

361 - > So if we're gonna, if we're gonna give them some, give them 362 - > three options at this point, And just say we're gonna give them 363 - > like a low option, a high option, and then sort of a, a 364 - > middle option. 365 - > what would the low option be? 366 - > John Tyreman: I would look at that as redefining the scope of 367 - > work at a lower price point. 368 - > And I would...

369 - > It, it's a total lower dollar amount, but it's total, it's a 370 - > less l- less of value that they're receiving, but it's a 371 - > way to recalibrate the scope of work to something that's 372 - > manageable on the delivery end, but also satisfies the need for 373 - > a, you know, a lower price point on the client's end. 374 - > Mark Wainwright: Good. 375 - > A-plus for sure. 376 - > Gold stars.

377 - > So, so yeah, just to dig a layer deeper into that, and maybe this 378 - > example applies more to sort of a longer-term engagement where 379 - > we're just sort of walking alongside the organization and 380 - > we're, you know, whether it's a retainer or whether it's just 381 - > sort of a, consistent relationship we have So our low 382 - > option is we're gonna carve out a bunch of stuff that we were 383 - > doing before, pull out some scope, and then we're going to 384 - > reintroduce a lower price that doesn't include some stuff we 385 - > were doing before, and maybe some of that stuff was high 386 - > value and maybe it wasn't.

387 - > You know, maybe we were just spinning our wheels doing, you 388 - > know, a fewer, a, a, a handful of different things with this 389 - > client that really wasn't making much of an impact. 390 - > So maybe we can carve that out, refocus on something that is of 391 - > high value and high importance to them. 392 - > Lo and behold, we end up with a slightly lower, lower dollar 393 - > point here. 394 - > So in this scenario, there's our, there's our low option.

395 - > Now let's swing the pendulum to the other side. 396 - > What is the high option, 397 - > John Tyreman: yeah, and this is kind of what I was alluding to 398 - > earlier in, um, having that specialization and being able to 399 - > anticipate what the maturity of your clients looks like. 400 - > So I can speak to in, in my world of helping clients with 401 - > podcasts, I know that there's certain levels that can be 402 - > unlocked as the, a media brand grows. 403 - > So audience engagement becoming more and more like you need to 404 - > spend more time engaging with your audiences on the high end, 405 - > right?

406 - > Or you start to develop sponsorship opportunities that 407 - > take bandwidth to be able to manage. 408 - > So those are like a couple examples, and then so th- that's 409 - > what I would do is on that high end, let's take a look at what 410 - > mile markers are we hitting, what mile markers do we 411 - > anticipate hitting in the next six to 12 months, and then how 412 - > would the scope of work change if we hit those milestones? 413 - > Mark Wainwright: Got 414 - > John Tyreman: That's kind of how I would approach it.

415 - > Mark Wainwright: Yeah. 416 - > Good, I have a, a second alternative to that. 417 - > Like the - so, so, so the first option was this carve out, you 418 - > know, carve out a bunch of scope, offer up for a lower 419 - > dollar amount. 420 - > This high option when we swung to the o-other end, and maybe 421 - > this is a relationship, maybe it's a project-based, 422 - > may-may-maybe it's just a long-term, long-term 423 - > relationship, whatever else it is.

424 - > So from the get-go, we have, from the time we signed the 425 - > original contract, we have noticed that the client is, you 426 - > know, pushing the edge of the scope, right? 427 - > And things have kind of almost, you know, almost un- you know, 428 - > subconsciously sort of expanded with time, right? 429 - > So the high option at this point, now that we're at this 430 - > inflection point and we say, "Okay, we need to have a 431 - > conversation," the high option can be sort of a worst-case 432 - > scenario that says,"Look, over the last 12 months, the 433 - > trajectory of our work together has taken a, you know, a 434 - > completely different tack than, you know, what we originally 435 - > expected," right?

436 - > We're just, we're 10% over here, we're 20% over here. 437 - > We're just, like, it's just const- like the, the line is not 438 - > headed the way we all thought it would. 439 - > It's, you know, it's increased, and the line is steeper, right? 440 - > You're looking at our graph here.

441 - > Um, if this continues, here's where I see us kind of ending 442 - > up, right? 443 - > Here we are, year one. 444 - > Year two, if we continue along this path that we've been on 445 - > with things expanding, here's where we could, here's where we 446 - > could end up. 447 - > And lo and behold, that's a big number, And a lot of times you 448 - > won't.

449 - > A lot of, a lot of consultants will just freak out. 450 - > They're just like,"No way that I, I am gonna put that big 451 - > number in front of these guys because they're just gonna freak 452 - > out," right? 453 - > No way. 454 - > But that's our high option, Okay, John, here's where you 455 - > bring it all home, right?

456 - > So, we've given them the low option where we carved out just 457 - > this little chunk of scope, lower dollar thing. 458 - > The high option is like,"Look, we've had so many changes," 459 - > whatever else,"the tra- the, the, where we're headed is 460 - > really expensive." And then we come back to our wonderful 461 - > Goldilocks, our middle option, which is the thing that says, 462 - > "Look, if we both make better decisions, manage budgets, 463 - > manage schedules, everything else, all that stuff, here's 464 - > where I think we can be in this next 12 months."

And maybe it, 465 - > may-maybe, you know, it's an increase, but it's reasonable, 466 - > it's understandable For both parties. 467 - > And, that is a fantastic option, right? 468 - > It lets you control the price conversation that we talked 469 - > about in the past. 470 - > It lets you give them, offer up this low dollar amount thing, 471 - > but it's a pretty small scope.

472 - > It shows them worst case, and then you end up in the middle 473 - > John Tyreman: And it's, it's an exercise in the client 474 - > understanding the service provider and their, their 475 - > business model. 476 - > I think i- in the, the high option is really a, a tool in 477 - > this scenario to make sure that the client understands where the 478 - > boundaries are in the existing scope 479 - > Mark Wainwright: For sure, right? 480 - > This is, this is f- this is the, we talk about framing a lot when 481 - > we talk about, price and scope and everything else with these 482 - > three options.

483 - > Like, this is, this is your tool to frame the conversation, to 484 - > control the price conversation. 485 - > It's like this is the low end, but it's missing out on a bunch 486 - > of stuff. 487 - > This is the high end that basically says,"Look, if, if we 488 - > can't get our stuff together and continue to let things sort of 489 - > expand and grow, um, with no constraints, we're gonna end up 490 - > here," and then we snap back to the, to the middle option. 491 - > So that's where we're presenting the client the ability to choose 492 - > the three options.

493 - > We give them a really nice, attractive central option that 494 - > says with some discipline, with some good decision-making, 495 - > there's gonna be some increases, but it's not gonna be that, that 496 - > high end. 497 - > Nor do we have to sacrifice a whole bunch of things that maybe 498 - > you want in this low option, right? 499 - > So there you go. 500 - > All right.

501 - > That's one sort of, you know, low, high, medium sort of a 502 - > situation. 503 - > And frankly, I think that, that example that we just provided 504 - > there applies to a ton of different situations, because 505 - > inevitably we run across things in the work that we do as 506 - > consultants that are unexpected, and it drives increases in work, 507 - > increases of scope, and lo and behold, increases in the 508 - > dollars. 509 - > And when we frame it properly, here's the low thing we could 510 - > do, here's the high thing, really expensive, but there's a 511 - > nice middle.

512 - > I think that's a fantastic way to approach these, these 513 - > changes. 514 - > Okay. 515 - > So we have got some, just some, you know, bullet point here. 516 - > So now what?

517 - > What's everybody go and do now? 518 - > John Tyreman: the number one takeaway from me is looking at 519 - > your existing client portfolio and doing your, doing some 520 - > discovery, listening, learning, looking at each engagement and 521 - > thinking to yourself is, how far off a scope is this? 522 - > where did we see this relationship heading? 523 - > What's changed in terms of the value of the client when we 524 - > first started working together?

525 - > What do they value now? 526 - > What's changed? 527 - > and I think just going through that exercise of intentionally 528 - > doing a discovery exercise with the client, um, but 529 - > independently as well 530 - > Mark Wainwright: you know, just the foundational understanding 531 - > across the board that asking for money is, is, is undesirable for 532 - > everybody, right? 533 - > Client, consultant, the whole thing.

534 - > Nobody, nobody wants to get into that. 535 - > That's it. 536 - > Nobody wants to be asked for more. 537 - > Nobody wants to go and ask for more.

538 - > So it's just not, not good for, for anybody. 539 - > It's not good for the relationship. 540 - > The other big thing for me, like, you need to treat these 541 - > things exactly the same way as you did the original proposal, 542 - > provided you did a, you know, provided you did what we say you 543 - > need to do in the first proposal, right? 544 - > Do some options, do good discovery, present really strong 545 - > understanding, align your u- align the options you present 546 - > with the understanding that you developed through great 547 - > discovery.

548 - > That exact same thing needs to happen now. 549 - > And frankly, it's gonna be a little bit easier because now 550 - > you know them. 551 - > You've worked with them for a period of time. 552 - > You understand them more.

553 - > You understand how they like to work. 554 - > You understand what their, their pain points are. 555 - > You understand what they, the things they place a lot of value 556 - > and importance on, vice versa. 557 - > So now you're armed with a e- an even deeper understanding so 558 - > that you can come into these conversations really 559 - > well-equipped to present some really strong, strong options.

560 - > So we gotta treat this the exact same way first time around. 561 - > We gotta include those options. 562 - > And, you know, this is kind of whether this is worth being 563 - > explicit or not, John, it's like we gotta take this seriously, 564 - > right? 565 - > So many folks approach these sort of additional service 566 - > requests asking for more way too casually, I don't know if you 567 - > have or not 568 - > John Tyreman: No, it's anxiety filled, sweating bullets.

569 - > It's like, 570 - > Mark Wainwright: it's probably the opposite is like I have so 571 - > much stress up, you know, kind of in this thing as I just, I 572 - > just don't do it. 573 - > And sometimes that happens, right? 574 - > Is like we're so anxious about it, we never do it. 575 - > We just n- we, we need to ask, For sure.

576 - > And we don't wanna rationalize, we don't wanna get defensive or 577 - > emotional or whatever else. 578 - > It's, this is an, this is an opportunity to be emotionally 579 - > intelligent, to work through some recommendations and some 580 - > options. 581 - > frame these options appropriately so that when we 582 - > sign this next go-round, when we head off on, you know, part two, 583 - > then everybody's happy with the relationship and we've got good 584 - > trust, good working relationship, and we're frankly 585 - > even more focused on the results that the client wants to get out 586 - > of this.

587 - > So, John, we've, we've hammered this enough. 588 - > I would love for people to have, you know, a nice, rich 589 - > conversation online with us, whatever else, you know, about 590 - > this topic. 591 - > John Tyreman: Hit us up on LinkedIn and tell us how you've 592 - > navigated price increases with your clients along the way. 593 - > We'd love to hear, hear from you.

594 - > Mark Wainwright: Good.