120. The London Retro!

Speaker A: Okay, here we go.

Speaker B: She's back.

Speaker A: I need to make sure I go on do not disturb for one hour. Okay. And here we go.

Speaker B: She's back.

Speaker A: I am back.

Speaker B: Yes. And you look great. You don't even look jet lagged. Thanks.

Speaker A: We'll go back Friday.

Speaker B: Okay, that helps. That helps a lot.

Speaker A: Um, I had my boarding pass. I saved it because I was going to put it on the bulletin board but then I forgot it.

Speaker B: Oh, darn it.

Speaker A: But when you're going to premium, um, economy, they print out your boarding pass for you and they put a bright orange tag on your luggage that says priority luggage. M. But I'm like, does that really prevent it from getting lost?

Speaker B: I don't know.

Speaker A: They see the tag right away, like, we won't lose this one. Oh yeah. All my luggage was totally good. Your advice to do an extra outfit or whatever. Yeah. Okay. So I was like packing and everything and I remembered your advice. Have an extra outfit in case they lose your luggage. So then I made like a little extra just, you know, a little toiletry bag of like just a few makeup things. Like four things that are my everyday things.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: In case my luggage got lost. But I forgot the outfit. But then my luggage didn't get lost, but I forgot my big makeup bag. Like I just totally left it at home. At home.

Speaker B: So it saved you.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I still had those like four things, you know.

Speaker B: That's good.

Speaker A: My four things I need to survive. Like mascara, tinted moisturizer, blush. We're good to go.

Speaker B: And listeners lip gloss. For those of you who don't listen to them. In order.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: This last episode we talked all about Ronnie preparing for her first big girl international business trip.

Speaker A: Yes. Let's give the high level, as they say in the corporate world. Yes, exactly. Yes.

Speaker B: And it was good. I was surprised. I was telling my friends about it. Like, we're, uh, so excited. We're so proud of Ronnie. She's going on her big first international business trip. And they went. So I wasn't, I mean, what did y' all talk about? I said logistics. Yeah. It was like, what should I wear? Where should, you know, where should I sleep? How should I sleep? Yeah, how do I make the plane ride? Good. It was, it was like nothing about what to do when she's there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: We did a little bit about culture. But you did.

Speaker A: Because your advice was to kind of like sit back.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And go with the flow. Don't try and take charge into them, fit into them. Which was really good advice. And I kept that in my head, like, the whole time.

Speaker B: Oh, that's good.

Speaker A: But, yeah, it was definitely interesting how even though obviously the UK and US are very similar culturally, there was still a lot of cultural differences, especially when it came to work, that I was actually pretty surprised and I learned a lot.

Speaker B: Well, I can't wait. I mean, are you ready to talk about all these.

Speaker A: Let's get into it. Cheers.

Speaker B: Okay, cheers. Yes.

Speaker A: So with work stuff, um, very different labor laws, which was interesting and that we talked a lot about.

Speaker B: And you talked about them because you wanted to make sure that the two teams would understand.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: How to treat the others. Right.

Speaker A: Because we're kind of going through a, uh, reorg of sorts. Of kind of. Not a whole reorg, but, like, some people are moving on to my team. And I think this didn't even occur to me because in the us, I mean, I've been reorged a million times. Nobody's ever asked me how I feel about it before. Like, all. You just wake up in the morning and get an email, you've been reorged.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Your boss isn't Jeff anymore, it's Dave. And life goes on. Yeah. So that's kind of like my understanding of reorgs. And they're always shitty. They're always, like, a tough transition. You never really understand why they're happening. You're supposed to. You're kind of just, like, supposed to trust and, you know there's a reason somewhere that there's a reason somewhere. Someone has a reason. So in the uk, there's, like, labor laws that basically protect against, like, if you're. And I'm. I didn't research it myself, so I'm just kind of going off of what I heard. But basically, if there's going to be a reorg or some sort of change to your role, that's going to change it by more than 20%. Basically, your responsibilities change by more than 20, which I have no idea how they figured that out. Then you enter into, like, a consultation period where you're basically able to kind of, like, air your grievances, concerns, and almost like, renegotiate whatever your contract is, even though it's not really a contract, but basically, like, get super clear on what your new responsibilities are going to be, and then you can either, like, accept the job or you go into redundancy and basically get laid off with, like, a severance package. Wow. Or they help you try and find a different job in the company. So that was just so crazy.

Speaker B: What a, uh, difference. Right. Where you really Are in the driver's seat.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah.

Speaker B: Whereas in the US is you're lucky to still have a job.

Speaker A: Right, Exactly. But it's kind of like you do. You are in the driver's seat. But are you really? It's kind of a, I don't want to say illusion because there are a lot of protections. But like, at the end of the day, it's either do the new job or you're probably gonna get laid off. It's just not gonna be in the American shitty way where you're laid off next week with two weeks severance. It's more. You have some time to process. Whatever. Whatever.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: So that was just super interesting. And then, um, they have like, as a full time employee, I never refer to my contract, even though I did sign a contract when I first started my job. But you're never like, I would never say, oh, I'm not going to work. My boss needs something Saturday, but I'm not going to work. Because that's not in my contract. No, because it's just not the way we think about our jobs. So anyways, that was kind of a thing of like, they don't really work hours that they're not really supposed to be working very much. More like this is my job that I agreed to do and I'm gonna

Speaker B: do it similar to like France and the rest of Europe. That it's more.

Speaker A: I think so you. Well, they were saying like, oh,

Speaker B: we live to work. They work to live.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And they have good vacations. Oh, take out much better vacations. You know, they take off summer.

Speaker A: Much better vacations.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But then they were saying, oh, our labor laws are like, compared to the rest of Europe, they're just better compared to yours. So that was kind of interesting. And it definitely like those. That snowballs into cultural differences because I think the big wigs aren't just making decisions and reorgs kind of as quickly because it's a whole. If you do that, it's going to be a whole thing that you're going to have to go through.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: So, yeah. Really interesting navigating all of that. Interesting. Hanging out around the, you know, VPs and directors and stuff.

Speaker B: Is it very hierarchical there?

Speaker A: So it's more hierarchical in the US or at least for my team than it is there. I talk to my boss and she talks to her boss.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: I hardly ever talk to my boss as well boss.

Speaker B: Oh, totally.

Speaker A: That's not really the way that this team in the UK is. It's kind of like if they've got an issue, they'll just go straight to the big boss.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: This is my problem.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: It seems like. So that was interesting. It's also just interesting the way people at that level move and speak. And it's just like a giant, constant game. It feels like that's going on, really. And I'm like, this seems exhausting.

Speaker B: Oh, politics.

Speaker A: Politics, yes. Like constant office politics. And I don't know if it's because I've been sheltered in a remote environment for the last few years, so I just haven't been back in it. But I was like, man, the office

Speaker B: politics are politicking and I'm not excited about being a part of that. No.

Speaker A: I told Parker. I'm like, it's like I'm on a giant game of Survivor right now, but the prize isn't a million dollars. It's just a really big project that's going to take a ton of time.

Speaker B: That's so craz.

Speaker A: So, yeah, that was kind of crazy. And I, uh, just had a lot of anxiety after leaving meetings and conversations, being like, did I say the right thing?

Speaker B: How'd that go? Like, how did that go? Yeah, how did you get any feedback about you and how, uh, you were there?

Speaker A: I should ask my boss for feedback about how it all went.

Speaker B: Is there anybody there you could ask?

Speaker A: M. Yeah, definitely the team that we were, like, collaborating with that where our two teams are kind of coming together. I should probably ask them.

Speaker B: And the idea is that some of these might report to you.

Speaker A: So I'm getting three new employees, but they're going to be out of Comcast Tech center in India. So that will also be interesting because now I'm going to have totally different time. I mean, it's interesting because in India they have, like. I didn't realize this, but I guess a lot of software engineers that work in India, they, like, operate on these different shifts. So a lot of times they work late their time.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So that they have some overlap with us.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: If they're working for American companies. So they'll work till like 8 their time and then we can have a few hours of overlap. So I guess that's kind of how it's going to go, but that's going to be a whole interesting thing. So I don't know. There's a lot going on. There is a lot going on. The team's growing. It's good. It's going in more of a software engineering, like, web development route, which I obviously don't have a lot of Familiar familiarity with.

Speaker B: Do you want that?

Speaker A: I don't know. That's the other thing is it's a whole balance of like, you want to inspire confidence in your boss and her boss that you can do this and that you can figure it out.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: But you don't want to oversell your abilities. And then all of a sudden there's high expectations that you can't meet. So you want to under promise and over deliver while also inspiring confidence while not trying to come across as arrogant, while making sure that the people that you're taking the work from feel like you're intimidated so that they don't think that you're undervaluing their work, but they still believe in you.

Speaker B: All before noon.

Speaker A: Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Uh.

Speaker B: Oh my gosh.

Speaker A: Yeah. That's crazy. Well, I thought you'd have some more advice besides.

Speaker B: No, it's funny because I thought you would have gotten exposed to this a little sooner, to be honest.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And. But it's inevitable. M. Right. And it's that thing of, um, how authentic do you want to be?

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And how much do you want to do whatever's thrown at you.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Versus having some say Right. In what you do next.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Are you just the, like the lap dog of the organization that takes whatever they give you?

Speaker A: I mean, I'm 100% down to roll with the punches. What? Whatever they give me. I really don't care.

Speaker B: Because you think I'll learn something new for you. I'll learn something new and that's the way I watch.

Speaker A: I'll figure it out.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I'm not stressed about it. I'm not like, oh, this isn't the direction I want my career to like. It's all good experience at the end of the day. And it's exciting. It's not like it's. Well.

Speaker B: And you haven't done a lot to actually go and have done those things over and over. Right, Right. So if you get to a point in your career where they've given you options that you've already done.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And it's really not in best interests. So if you've done something before.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And doing it again is just solving the corporate need instead of really helping you to add additional skill sets.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Then you can kind of push them away from that. Um, and say, hey, let's get somebody else that can actually leverage that.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: Right. And they of course may come back. And so. But we want somebody already did it. Well, I get it. But then let that be this much of my, my job and I need some new stuff. Right, right, Yep. So. But doing what you're doing next would be some good skills to get as a manager.

Speaker A: Definitely.

Speaker B: And so that's great.

Speaker A: Growing. It's getting more people. That's more exposure. Yeah. So it's all good.

Speaker B: So with the business trip, um, I love the way we started with what were the cultural things? Yes. And the job things like, are these people gonna come and report to me?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: So that's what we were talking about.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So the three new hires, that's, um, pretty much it for my team. And then there's gonna be a couple front end engineers that are gonna report to a manager in the uk. And will you work well and a

Speaker B: lot with this UK manager?

Speaker A: Yeah, me and the UK manager are gonna be peers and gonna have to. Yeah. Be on the same page. Have you met we're hiring?

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: So I'll probably have to go back to London to interview for that. Good job.

Speaker B: Good.

Speaker A: So that's the other interesting thing about UK culture versus US culture, especially when it comes to engineering teams. Most. So I feel like this is kind of an American thing where it's like, okay, this is our main product that this team is working on. We're gonna do it with as few people as we can.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Like if it takes four people to run this application, they'd be a lot stressed with six, but they're doing it fine with four. It's gonna stay at four.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: In the uk, I feel like the teams, it to me seemed more like robust and like really fully built out. It wasn't just like, yes, better staffed. And they have, um, for most engineering teams, a principal engineer and a manager. And the manager is not technical and doing the work. And no, they're like solely focused on people management. And then the principal engineer is solely focused on like technical mentorship.

Speaker B: Whereas in, uh, the U.S. they'll try to do all that together.

Speaker A: Right. I mean, I think that's a great way to do it because in the usa either promote the best engineer who's absolutely shit at working with people. They're terrible managers, but they're really good engineers.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Or you have a manager that doesn't know anything technically and has a hard time managing a super technical team.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Or you get, you know, the perfect thing, which is me. I love that you get someone who is technical that is also interested in managing people, which are kind of rare in engineering.

Speaker B: Oh, it's. It's a zebra.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's Another thing is, like, the engineers that are coming to my team are worried about not having a principal engineer to, like, offer guidance and mentorship and stuff.

Speaker B: Do you feel like in your career you're moving more away from the technical roles and more into the management roles?

Speaker A: Like, I'm moving away, and I don't know how to stop it. So maybe you could give me some advice on that.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Because I want to stay on top of my tech skills and be able to, like, contribute to the stuff my team's doing. But I feel like the more the team grows and the more projects we get, the more I'm like, okay, you are gonna work on this. You're gonna work on this so that it can all get done, and then they kind of, like, get going. And I feel like in engineering projects, once a project kind of gets off the ground, you're kind of. If you're not with it from the beginning, it's, like, technically hard to know what's going on, let alone be able to contribute. Like, you can. I obviously, understand, still, to follow it. To follow it. But if it was like, oh, I have this bug. Can you look at it?

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: I would be like, well, you've been writing code to this project for the last month, and I don't really know what's going on. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker B: So it comes down to, do you want to do that work and have that accessible in the future, that type of work?

Speaker A: I know. I don't know.

Speaker B: I don't know. And that's okay. There's no bad answer here.

Speaker A: Because I'm like, I like coding, and I like working on my projects. I also really like managing. But if I keep managing, am I gonna end up like these soulless people walking around playing their office politics all day? Because that sounds awful.

Speaker B: You don't have to. Right. And I'm sorry.

Speaker A: That was. I hope nobody hears that. But that's how it feels sometimes, honey.

Speaker B: That is a lot of what, um, life is like. Right. And you get to choose. So for me, I wanted to build. Build a bubble that allowed my people to not have all the politics.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then I played the politics that I had in my tool kit.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: That I would pull out when I needed it, but it wasn't all consumer, and I really didn't like pulling it out.

Speaker A: Okay, okay.

Speaker B: But you tried to make it a game so that you went, hey, we need to get that done. Instead of going head to head and having a fight with this guy, I just ended up figuring out who he Works the best with. And going and pitching it to that guy, getting him on board, letting him pitch it to him.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And being strategic instead of, um, taking on the politics, uh, head on or even the decision head on.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So it comes down to where do you get the most fulfillment? Uh, do you see yourself more as a people person, where you're developing others and you're changing people's lives that way?

Speaker A: Uh-huh.

Speaker B: Or are you solving problems and feeling like your whole day was worth it because you accomplished something technically? Yeah, I think I know the answer.

Speaker A: Like, probably more of a people.

Speaker B: I do too.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: I think you've just always been wise beyond your years. Thank you.

Speaker A: I just don't want to be an annoying manager that doesn't understand what's going on technically, and then makes bad decisions, because that's so annoying.

Speaker B: But the, the reason you won't be is because you don't want to be that. Wow. So you. It's gonna be okay.

Speaker A: Okay, right? Yes. Yes.

Speaker B: And you can always do things on the side, like little hack projects or sitting down and talking with your people and saying, you know, can I spend a couple hours with you as you debug this problem? Do you know how cool you would seem and be, uh, if. If you did that with one of your people and what they would think of you?

Speaker A: I mean, I still do contribute a lot technically now, but it's just definitely becoming less and less.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: But yeah, yeah, no, that would be good.

Speaker B: And you're going to be given other assignments that you've never done. That work.

Speaker A: That's been all of my assignments. And, like, this one is definitely the most out of left field. I feel like, out of everything so far, but I'm not like, super stressed about it.

Speaker B: Good.

Speaker A: I think it's gonna be okay because your.

Speaker B: Your attitude is that of. Of everything is figureoutable. Yeah.

Speaker A: Everything is figureoutable.

Speaker B: But you weren't like that at the beginning. Do you remember when we met?

Speaker A: Oh, my God. But once you figure out a bunch of stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Then you're like, oh, I got this skill. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And isn't it powerful to have the skill?

Speaker A: I feel like I did hear a lot during this trip about skill sets. What team has the right skill sets? What people have the right skill sets.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Which I totally get. But in, like, the engineering, technical world, like, so there's so many resources out there, so much code already written. Like, it's, you know, as long as you're somebody who's gonna be Resourceful and reach out to other people and kind of be a sponge.

Speaker B: But that is the skill set. Being resourceful.

Speaker A: Yeah. Being.

Speaker B: So when people say to you, oh, we need someone that's already done that.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You may be able to push back because of what you know and say. If we've got a tenacious person, they're gonna figure this out.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's true. I think my like, biggest concern about it is I want it to be, um, have like the best, you know. You know, they said like best practice. Like I want it to be up to like industry.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Standard.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Well, especially because this is my first time working on a product that even though it's an internal product that other people see and use and like they expect it to be working all the time and they expect it to be fast, I feel like.

Speaker B: And they depend on it.

Speaker A: They depend on it. Most of my engineering work up to date has been like side projects. No. But they haven't been like product level projects.

Speaker B: Oh, got it.

Speaker A: Like if they're sweating, it doesn't really matter. Or if they, if there's a bug, they'll just let you know and then you can fix it. I mean, you have to fix it now.

Speaker B: It's. No.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: This is impacting us right now. And that's so cool because now it means you're getting more visibility.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And that means you can shine. Or if things happen, you'll be evaluated on how well you respond to that. Right. Not screwing up, but because everybody. Things are going to happen. It's. How do you respond?

Speaker A: How do you respond?

Speaker B: Like now it's okay. These are highly visible projects. How do I keep people in the know so that nothing's new news?

Speaker A: Yes, yes.

Speaker B: Right. That's the big thing is people just hate being blindsided. Right.

Speaker A: So yeah. Somehow you'll tell somebody a piece of information two, three times.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And they're still blindsided.

Speaker B: Totally.

Speaker A: Like how many fucking times you have to tell.

Speaker B: Yeah. And remember, it takes seven times people to hear. Right.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So it means you, you cover your ass. You actually send them an email after you talk.

Speaker A: Oh yeah.

Speaker B: So. So that they can't say, oh damn, I was so busy that I didn't. To be honest, it. It's on me.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That I didn't hear you digested. And do something with it.

Speaker A: Exactly. Especially when everything's remote. It's like if you send someone a slack and they say okay, you don't. There's no body language for you to look at and know that they absorbed.

Speaker B: Yeah, they. Yeah, it's like right up ahead. Right.

Speaker A: But I want to hear your advice on balancing the inspiring confidence in your bosses, but also under promising so that you can over deliver.

Speaker B: So I totally.

Speaker A: Because I feel like sometimes I say, oh, we can do that. That's not going to be that hard. We can figure it out.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But then I don't set myself up for success because then I feel like sometimes that gets internalized as, oh, it'll only take her.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: A few months.

Speaker B: So remember, the only thing I change with that is it won't be hard to. We just. Just say the first and third thing you said. Oh, we get that.

Speaker A: Uh-huh.

Speaker B: We can figure that out. Yeah. Do you see the difference in that versus it won't be hard? Um, because you just don't know what it's going to be. Right. I mean, we had a guy, every time I went to him and said, we need to get this work done. Give me an estimate so I can get some people to do it. And he would tell me, and it was a Duffy factor. I think we talked about this. It was, oh, I can do that in three weeks. And you knew a normal human could do it in nine weeks.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Three times three. Right.

Speaker A: And so would he actually do it in three weeks?

Speaker B: Oh, hell yeah. Because he was a nut bar, like CMT's Smartest Shit. Right. I mean, he could. He could make people feel pretty stupid.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So he. When God was giving out talent, there was a lot of intellectual. And some of the people skills were not as strong, maybe. Right. So it was. That's okay.

Speaker A: This was God with the engineering skills.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: And then with the, uh, people skills, it was like a little. But the people skills, it was this. Yeah.

Speaker B: That was all there is. That's all there is. Right. And so you get that. So knowing that it's that whole thing of when you were at pizza locale.

Speaker A: Oh, love life. Simpler then.

Speaker B: Yes. You want lower expectations and exceed them.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So how do you do that in a way that doesn't look like you're bullshitting them? And it's all about authenticity. Because if you go in there and you're just blowing smoke.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: To say you don't know you've never done this, but you want to say you have.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Then they're going to read right through it. Right, right. So instead it's just like I used to tell some of the engineers. Say what you've done. That's similar to that. How well it went.

Speaker A: Uh-huh.

Speaker B: And how you'll, you'll get this done the same way. Yeah. Now I had all these engineers that went in and talked about what they hadn't done before that didn't help anybody.

Speaker A: Oh, to say, well, I've never done this, I've never done that.

Speaker B: Yeah, we've never done that. Exactly. We've never done this part, We've never done that part.

Speaker A: Yeah, okay, I get it.

Speaker B: But to be honest, how many things do you go into in life where you haven't. You've done even 70% of them, right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Life is kind of all new shit, right. I mean, look at what I'm doing. I'm taking on some damn door project, right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I'm like, I've done 40% of this somewhere, but the other 60% we're gonna figure out.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But I think it's also, um. I remember so distinctly being a computer science major the first time I learned my first language, and it's Pascal. I know that's gonna date me, but shut up, bitches. And then I learned my next C. Then, you know, other languages, it was easier because you have a frame of reference, you got your C legs, and

Speaker A: you just don't get frustrated.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Like when stuff doesn't work for me or I don't. Things don't work exactly how I expect them to. I'm like, yeah, par for the course. I don't really get like emotionally pissed off anymore.

Speaker B: And if you can have those mantras.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Right. Like you said, par for the course. For me it was an agile term that was said, that's a problem to solve. M. And instead of saying, oh my God, that's a problem to solve. Do you see the difference? And we can figure out shit.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Because everything is figure out.

Speaker A: Yep, exactly.

Speaker B: M. Does that help?

Speaker A: Yes, it does. It does. Because I got feedback from my boss that I need to improve how I give timelines.

Speaker B: Oh.

Speaker A: Because I kind of say in my head when I get something because I feel confident, you gloss over it. No, I just say that it won't take as long as it ends up taking. Oh, do you know what I mean? I don't like, leave room for unexpected problems. Oh, I can probably do that by Friday.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then my boss was like, well, I know that means you'll probably have it like Tuesday. And I'm like, well, that's not good. My boss shouldn't be having to like buffer for me, but I need to be giving better time.

Speaker B: And there's actually theory of constraints.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Of how you develop software schedules. Did you know only 26% of software projects come in on time?

Speaker A: No, but that does not surprise me.

Speaker B: Is that ridiculous?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So what you learn is my gut is telling me Friday.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I'll tell them Tuesday.

Speaker A: I know.

Speaker B: So that's your internal. Capture the thought. Don't say, don't say Friday.

Speaker A: Don't say shit.

Speaker B: Don't say shit. You know, make. Put your lips together Tuesday.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And you reroute it 1 out of 10 times, pull it out of your ass, do it on Friday. Then everybody's like, damn, Ronnie's the shit, you know?

Speaker A: Right? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So, yep. That's cool.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot going on.

Speaker B: Okay, so I really want to know, how did the logistics part of it go? Tell me, did you take the right stuff? Did you? How was the flight?

Speaker A: Oh, premium economy, was luxurious.

Speaker B: Could you sit back?

Speaker A: Oh, yeah. So it reclined back. It had the little, like, foot recliner.

Speaker B: So it came up.

Speaker A: It came up. It didn't go like all the way back.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: It's so interesting when you recline in those. Like when you first press recline, you're like, oh, this is so nice. And then like five minutes later, you feel like you're sitting straight up.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You want to go back even further. Further.

Speaker B: Right? You want flat.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So. But there, the flight was not full. So there was a guy on, like, the aisle because I was in the middle. Three seats in the middle. I was on the aisle, he was on the aisle. We had the center.

Speaker B: Oh.

Speaker A: Shared real estate for our snacks, whatever.

Speaker B: Great.

Speaker A: But he was an older guy, and when he first sat down, he couldn't get his headphones to work. And I was like, oh, my God, he better figure this out, because if he moves to the seat next to me so that he can use the headphones, I'm gonna be pissed. Right.

Speaker B: I want my space.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, so the flight attendant came.

Speaker B: I want my buffer.

Speaker A: Yeah. So the flight attendant comes over, tries to help him with it. It doesn't work. The flight attendant goes, well, you could always move over. That seat's unoccupied. And I'm like, no, no, no. So then he gets a new set of headphones, and then he figures it out, and then it starts working.

Speaker B: And I was like, oh, thank you.

Speaker A: But he was so funny. He was watching, um, Anyone but you the rom com.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And he was dying, laughing, like. He had his headphones on and he was audibly cackling out loud.

Speaker B: I did not cackle. Did you watch it?

Speaker A: I did. I did.

Speaker B: So how did you spend your time? Did you move?

Speaker A: Okay. So I watched American Fiction, which was really good. I would recommend that movie.

Speaker B: I haven't seen it to everybody.

Speaker A: I really liked it.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: It was nominated for best picture.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: I do a rating system on my phone where I keep track of everything that I've watch, listen to.

Speaker B: Oh, my God.

Speaker A: And I give it a ranking on a scale of 1 to 10.

Speaker B: Oh, my.

Speaker A: Then I'll add some emojis for special recognitions. Yes. Anyways, I gave this a 9 out of 10, which on the Ronnie scale was a very high rating.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Only, like, probably eight things the whole year get a 10 out of 10.

Speaker B: So, I mean, do you feel like it was an easy flight?

Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I think it was pretty easy because I watched that, and then I took my sleeping pills, and then I listened to my sleep story with the Calm app about Sienna the sloth putting all the other animals in the jungle to bed. And then I fell asleep, and it was not, like, a very good sleep. It was definitely one of those where you keep waking up, going to sleep, waking up, going to sleep. But then, next thing I knew, they turned the lights on and it was like, breakfast service. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah.

Speaker A: And they gave us breakfast, and then we landed right. Like, this is pretty good.

Speaker B: Yeah. And the food. How was the food?

Speaker A: The food was honestly not that bad.

Speaker B: Good.

Speaker A: I had really low expectations. Yes. And it was better than expected.

Speaker B: Oh, good. It. It was not bad. So you stayed up the whole day as we talked or not?

Speaker A: Yes. So then I landed at 12. I was super anxious because I just get really, really bad travel anxiety.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: And then after, like, not sleeping that well, sleeping pills, whatever, I just felt really, really weird. I didn't get to the hotel till, like, two, and then I went to the gym, did, like, my usual full workout. And then I showered, uh, and stuff. And then I was like, okay, should I, like, go out and do a little exploring? Right. And I just was, like, in a. I was just super, super anxious. So then I was like, I'm just gonna stay at the hotel bar. I'll have a burger, have a glass of wine, easy. See who else is here, easy. So I did that, and then, uh, went to bed early. And then the next day, I woke up, and I felt great.

Speaker B: You're like, I'm ready to start.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm ready to start the trip.

Speaker B: I'm ready to kill it over here.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And they go, oh, that Ronnie. We like her yeah.

Speaker A: And I was very much a guest woman on the trip. Like, anybody that was like, do you want to get a coffee? Yes. Do you want to go to lunch? Yes, I'm going to go. A lot of smokers in the UK Also. Do you want to go get a smoke break? And I'm like, well, I don't smoke, but I'll go stand with you. Yeah. And we just stand with while they smoked. Um, this gal that I met that's on my broader team, Min. I just loved her. She was so fun to hang out with, but she is like a real gym rat. And she was like, do you want to go do Thai boxing with me at lunch? And I was like, yes. So we went and did Thai boxing. And then I was talking to other people, and I was like, nobody here wants to, like, take me out to explore London. Like, what's the deal? And they're like, all right, we'll do it. We'll take you out. So then on the last night there, we actually, like, went out to dinner and did some sightseeing and stuff. And it was good.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I definitely met a lot of people, for sure.

Speaker B: So. Good.

Speaker A: And I knew that working.

Speaker B: Yeah, I knew you.

Speaker A: And also it felt like, in a very authentic way. I didn't feel like I was kissing everybody's ass. Just like, I, like, felt like I really got to know people and just a lot of stuff. Stuff about what? Their personality. And that's so cool. Yeah. Well.

Speaker B: And I only had one instant where I thought about going to Amsterdam for a expat assignment. M. And it was really attractive. It was one of those things where you said, I want to do this once.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. Uh, and I ended up not doing it. Um, but I did a lot more international assignments.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Which. Which turned out good because I think I'm the type of person that likes. You know how we talked about, you either go deep or you go broad in your career. M. You either want to be the best, you know, radio engineer in all of super specific. Right. Or you want to be broad and have done so many different things. Yes, I'm definitely the broad.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: I have, like, a three year, um, interval of boredom with any job. And at three years, I'm like, what's the next one? This is getting on my nerves.

Speaker A: She's snapping.

Speaker B: Right, right.

Speaker A: They call this clicking in the uk.

Speaker B: Clicking. Love it, love it, love it. So you have to figure that about yourself. And I know that international assignments were broad. Right. You got to figure out stuff both culturally and you're usually doing something pretty niche.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. So what do you think you are?

Speaker A: I think I'm broad. You are?

Speaker B: Sure. I would think that.

Speaker A: Yeah. I feel like I've done a lot of different stuff and I've never really been an expert on any of them does that I've been just good enough to get by.

Speaker B: The thing is to lean into that and not feel less because you're not the other thing.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, I know that's true. I do need to lean into it because I'm like, with work, there's nothing in tech that I'm so passionate about that I would just want to dive in and do that thing for the

Speaker B: rest of my m. Career. I agree. I'll never forget. Remember last year I did the Yellowstone Club valet.

Speaker A: Yes. Talk about broad careers.

Speaker B: Stupid Pearl Meter. The guy that, um, was the Nobel physics prize winner and discovered dark matter. Oh, he was so neat. He was in my car.

Speaker A: Oh, wow.

Speaker B: Him and his wife. Oh my God. So we're sitting there and we're chatting. Most of the people that are in your car, you know, rich and famous, powerful, they're. I'll tell you about what I've done.

Speaker A: Yeah. I'm not gonna ask you about what you do.

Speaker B: These are this little Jewish really cool couple that are like, tell us about you.

Speaker A: Oh, that's so nice.

Speaker B: Uh, so I chat, you know, and. And I'll never forget. Stu says it makes me think sometimes I should have been broader. And it's like, you got the Nobel. You got a million dollars for.

Speaker A: You have a Nobel Prize for discovering

Speaker B: something that no one else has discovered. Yeah. I think you did good in. I said to him, I think your mom was pretty proud. Yeah, I think he did good.

Speaker A: You should have said, who's driving who around right now.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: I think you have it figured.

Speaker B: Exactly. It was just the coolest.

Speaker A: But to get.

Speaker B: He got who he was.

Speaker A: That's actually so inspiring because it's like, oh, if you're chasing this feeling of 100% confidence and you did, and you feel like you've done everything right and made all the right decisions, guess what? Doesn't exist. No. Discover dark matter. Still don't feel that way. Doesn't exist.

Speaker B: Exactly. And it makes you feel so. Like everybody's struggling with their own shit.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: I, uh, bet sometimes Michelle Obama m thinks, hmm, Hm. Maybe I should have blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker B: Yeah. Stayed in. In, um, practicing law.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: During the presidency of my husband and you know, I mean really seriously. Right.

Speaker A: Michelle Obama. I always. From her book. Think about her advice. This is like, total change of subject. But about, um, coming back for maternity leave.

Speaker B: I don't remember this.

Speaker A: She like, talks in her book about how when a lot of times women. And I guess she either made this mistake or somebody told her not to, but will come back from maternity leave and basically try to, like, negotiate coming back part time.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Like, I'll come back part time. Yes. Whatever. Because they want to spend time at home with a baby. And she's like, don't do it, because what you'll end up doing is the exact same full time job you were doing before, but with half the pay.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's what I tell people too. Yeah, it's tough.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, we should do an episode about

Speaker A: planning for paternity and maternity leave.

Speaker B: Oh, that's a good idea.

Speaker A: Maybe we've done that before, but I think that would be.

Speaker B: I don't think we have. And it would be nice to find somebody who's done that well.

Speaker A: Mm.

Speaker B: I love this. I am so impressed with how you. You did you feel kind of nervous about going.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, Because I have really bad travel anxiety.

Speaker B: Oh, no.

Speaker A: Really bad kind. I have bad travel anxiety. My girlfriends, I saw them, like, literally I landed on Friday and then took a shower and then went out and got like pizza and wine with my girlfriends. It was so nice. And they were like, we're so proud of you for going because they've traveled with me before. They're like, we know how you are. And you went to London all by yourself. That's so badass. So I was very proud of myself.

Speaker B: And don't you think you'll do it with a different attitude next time?

Speaker A: Oh, yeah. The next time I'll be like, way m more comfortable.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Ready to go.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: It'll be good. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker B: And they'll be new weird shit. Will. Will come up always.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: But I'm sorry, what were you saying about my advice?

Speaker A: You said that you would have said stayed a weekend. Yes, I kind of agree with that because I, uh, didn't really. Having never gone on an international business trip, I was kind of thinking there would be plenty of time for the international part. It's basically all business trip. Because it's work during the work time.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: You're going to the office, meeting with people, whatever, but it's also work after.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because you're going to dinners with people.

Speaker B: Totally.

Speaker A: Happy hour with people.

Speaker B: But not seeing stuff.

Speaker A: Yes, exactly. You're just going to a restaurant. And so it's just constant the whole time. Like, you really need a day off if you want to.

Speaker B: And actually the coolest I remember was my peer, the head of development when I was doing sales for Servion. Uh, he took me over the weekend and really saw things.

Speaker A: Oh, that's so awesome.

Speaker B: And that was incredible because the week. The work week was that. Yeah, exactly. So it's nice. When you go to India, you have to stay at least two weeks. Right. Because it's such a long trip.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So you know you're gonna have a weekend. Yeah. And you hope you have some, um, non dud that you work with that's gonna step up and say, oh, I

Speaker A: wanna show you the place, show you around. Yeah.

Speaker B: And it makes you. When people come and visit you, it makes you want to do a better job of showing them this area. Yeah.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah. That's like my whole thing is if somebody came to Denver, I would love to show them.

Speaker B: Totally.

Speaker A: Like, I would love to do that. But I mean, I'm an extrovert, so maybe that's not everybody's cup of tea. But I'd be like, let's go. I have an itinerary. Yeah.

Speaker B: Oh, I'm so proud of you.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You're just growing up right in front of my eyes. Yeah.

Speaker A: So that's my retrospect thing.

Speaker B: I love it.

Speaker A: I would have stayed another day to have a free day. Um, I thought I was even by yourself? Even by myself.

Speaker B: Great.

Speaker A: I thought I would explore on the day I got there. Now I'm realizing that was shit. Because the first day you get there, you're just like, you don't feel good, you're exhausted, you're jet lagged.

Speaker B: Like, you just want to get through it.

Speaker A: You just want to get through it. Stay awake till bedtime.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So don't really plan and don't even

Speaker B: set those expectations for yourself because you're going to be disappointed.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Right. Just say, okay. Um, my whole goal is to not fall asleep.

Speaker A: And if I achieve that.

Speaker B: Yes. Right. It's not to go in sightsee.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I love it.

Speaker A: And like, doing a workout when I got there was actually so good.

Speaker B: I'm so proud of you.

Speaker A: It made me feel so much better.

Speaker B: Oh, I love it.

Speaker A: And it helped a lot with the jet lag. At least I think.

Speaker B: What made you do it?

Speaker A: Well, so you know how I listened to Andrew Huberman? That's like, he talks about jet lag and stuff, and that's one of the things he recommends is doing a workout. So it kind of just like, resets your system. And also it helps you feel like you have those. Feel good.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Chemicals. And then helps you fall asleep. That totally. And just kind of gives you, like a reset. And then he also says that whenever you get to the place, you're going to, like, eat meals at the time you're supposed. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. So never leave your watch if you have to change it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Never leave it at the old time.

Speaker A: Ah, don't leave it at the old time. I had my computer at the old time.

Speaker B: Oh, no.

Speaker A: And the next morning I was in a meeting and the computer was like, 4am No.

Speaker B: I was like, do it. Don't look at it. Just ignore it.

Speaker A: Don't look at it.

Speaker B: Don't do it. Yeah. I'm so proud of you.

Speaker A: Oh, thank you. It was a great success overall.

Speaker B: It was.

Speaker A: Thank you for all your advice. And I feel like we've had kind of like a lull in my career where everything's been pretty easy breezy.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I haven't been having to ask you a lot of questions.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: Just a heads up that might become. We might be hitting another rough patch.

Speaker B: Hey, you remember you and I talked

Speaker A: to your sound on. For. On your phone. Don't turn it on vibrate. I might need you.

Speaker B: Oh, I've never. Never. And I think this is important to say to people about mentoring relationships. There's going to be kind of more active seasons. Yep. And it's okay.

Speaker A: It's totally okay.

Speaker B: Because if it was always up there, you'd kill people.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: And if it was just a blah, they'd say, why are we have a relationship? Right. And so this. This up and down makes it interesting.

Speaker A: Have you ever said that to somebody?

Speaker B: Never.

Speaker A: Why are we having a relationship?

Speaker B: Why do we. Why do you want to be my friend? No, I'm teasing.

Speaker A: What a hoot. Love it. Yeah. I do still feel a little out of sorts, but.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's understandable.

Speaker A: Yeah, totally.

Speaker B: But you'll get so good at it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Oh, I'm so proud of you. Till next time, people.

Speaker A: Till next time.