#035: Multiculturalism in Australia- Migrant and Refugee Integration with Sandra Elhelw

Speaker A: You know, I often say that we don't have multiculturalism without culture. We pride ourselves in Australia on being a multicultural country where we have so much diversity and we have access to so much cultural richness. Mhm. But we lose that unless people retain it when they migrate here.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So we, we don't have multiculturalism unless people retain the links to their own culture and language. And that's something that I feel really strongly about. Lexigo presents the Native Experience with your host br.

Speaker B: Hello world, this is Brian from Lexico.com and you are listening to the Native Experience Podcast, the show that goes beyond translation and localization and discusses creating truly native experiences for diverse audiences. Well, thank you so much for listening and joining us. I appreciate you being here and joining us on today's chat. I'm excited to welcome Sandra Elhawa, CEO of the Settlement Council of Australia. Which is the national peak body representing Australia's Migrant and Refugee services Council has 130 member organizations working together towards an Australia where all people of uh, migrant and refugee backgrounds belong, thrive and experience fulfilling lives. We're going to hear about Sandra's past, her history and all the, all the good times of growing up and some of the bad times as well. So we'll get to hear about her, we'll hear about her role and her history in the workforce and what has driven her to where she is currently at today. So I'm very, very excited to talk with Sandra. She's a wealth of knowledge and experience and passion too. So let's get into our conversation with Sandra. Sandra, welcome to the Native Experience. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining me.

Speaker A: Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker B: All right, so we need to learn a little bit about you. So tell us about yourself personally and professionally and then follow up with what you're currently nerding out on for fun right now.

Speaker A: All right, well I was born in Waiala, which is four hours um, north of Adelaide in South Australia. And I was born there about two months after my parents arrived um, there from Egypt. Um, so um, they were very new in Australia when I was born. Um, we eventually moved to Adelaide from Wyola, um, for work opportunities. My dad found work in Adelaide and I grew up there. And um, I guess at that time in Adelaide there weren't a lot of um, other Arabs or people who really looked at, looked like me at school. And so um, you know, thinking uh, about diversity and, and my place in society has been something that's always been a part of my life from A very, um, early age. And it really intensified after September 11th. I was probably about 10 years old at that point and m. So that experience sort of intensified that and really drew me even closer to where I am now in my professional life. So I, um, I finished school. Um, I went to an Islamic school for part of my schooling. Went um, into law school after that. Never really worked as a practicing lawyer. Um, I sort of ran away from the law and ended up being um, more involved in social causes and social justice work.

Speaker B: Nice.

Speaker A: So, um, I guess my first professional foray in this space was while I was at law school. Um, while I was there I decided um, to volunteer at a migrant center. And so um, that was really just a way of me getting some professional experience in something that I was interested in. And at the time there was a lot of refugees, uh, arriving from Iraq. Uh, and I could speak Arabic. Um, I very quickly learned that the Arabic that I spoke wasn't the same Arabic that um, people from Iraq spoke. But um, it was still helpful nonetheless. And um, so I did a bit of voluntary work there and eventually, um, took on a part time job in that space. Um, and then that led to a full time job and sort of eight years later I was still working in the same field. Um, eventually I thought I should do something with all the student debt I accumulated. And I did decide to work in government in um, a legal area doing law reform on sexual assault and family violence. Did that for a few years and then um, came back to the multicultural space after that. And yeah, I've been there since.

Speaker B: Nice. Wow. I mean you've experienced a lot of life already. Isn't that amazing how that happens? Um, wow. Well, thanks for sharing that. Now tell us what you're nerding out on for fun right now and then I'll circle around back to some of this.

Speaker A: Oh yeah, that's right. I mean I nerd out on a lot of things. Um, so, you know, it's kind of hard to pick one, but I'll pick one that's totally left of field and that you're probably not expecting at all.

Speaker B: Love it.

Speaker A: Um, I have a complete obsession with honey.

Speaker B: Oh, nice.

Speaker A: I just, I love honey. I think it's so fascinating. It's delicious. And so I have about 19 jars of honey in my cupboard. And basically whenever I visit a place, I love to buy the local honey because it kind of, um, I mean because of how honey is made. It's like a taste of the space that you've been to because it's the local flowers and, you know, the whole process. So. Yeah. And they will have slightly different flavors, and no two honeys are the same, so.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: I nerd out a lot in honey and bees.

Speaker B: Oh, that's fantastic. You know, it's funny. Uh, a friend and former colleague of mine decided to get into beekeeping, and I think she did that. I guess it's been about a year and a half ago, and she was talking about getting bees, and I thought, I gotta come see your bees. This is cool. And so we got to go over and see them. And she was talking about the hives and keeping the queens alive. And then you got to be careful about, you know, if you combine hives because one's getting weaker or whatever. You got to be careful with that. Anyway, it was very, very fascinating. And we got to have some of her local honey and.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Yeah, you're right.

Speaker A: That'd be amazing. I live in an apartment, so don't have a beehive. Um, but yeah, I'd love to be able to do that one day.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, you got to have land for it because there's. You got to be. I don't think the. The. I mean, you could try the apartment things like. Oh, just, you know, walk around them.

Speaker A: Look, my house plants. My apartment aren't doing amazingly, so, uh, you know. Yeah, I've got low hopes for beehive.

Speaker B: I mean, do you sing to the houseplants? I heard that works.

Speaker A: I definitely don't sing to my houseplants. Okay.

Speaker B: That's funny. No, I understand. Houseplants are, uh, difficult. It's the sun and it's the joy. I think they pick up on your emotions. I don't know. I don't know if that's true, but that's my theory. It's a running theory.

Speaker A: Yeah. Interesting.

Speaker B: That's great. Wow. Okay. Obviously, a lot of your history growing up, I'm assuming, is what drove you to do what you do today. Is there any story in particular, anything specific that, you know, you. You had as you were growing up that said, hey, I need to do something about this? I mean, I know. I know your whole. Your whole upbringing, obviously, is why you're doing what you're doing, but I'm just curious if there's any specific stories.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I don't know that I've ever had, like, that specific moment of being like, this is what I need to do, or, um, you know, because of X experience, I need to be involved in this space. I think it was probably more this um, kind of being drawn to things that I understood, you know. Um, I think for. For many people, where we can have the best impact or do our best work is things that we understand really intimately and well. And so maybe it's less about, um, that it was so important to me, that it was more important than anything else, and more that I felt like I had a, um, perspective to share on it, or I understood it in a way, or that, um, I could add value to this space because of my experience. Um, and I think that's kind of been a constant thing that I've come back to. Many times when I've looked at, you know, pieces of work that needed to be done or, um, opportunities or jobs or whatever it might be is sort of this, you know, I think I have something to contribute to this issue or this thing that needs doing.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. That's good. So you mentioned ever since 911 things got really bad. And, uh, I was there. I remember that as well. And it's interesting growing up with, uh, a grandfather who was at the tail end of World War II and just kind of seeing his biases because of what happened and what happened to them when they were overseas and stuff like that. And then my dad was not in Vietnam, and me growing up, it's just like, hey, I just love everybody. I'm one of those people that's like, I don't care where you're from. I just love you. I just want to hang out with you. I'm, um, a people person. And so I didn't understand that kind of thing. But then when 911 hit, I got to see people that were scared and suspicious, and then bad things started to come back up. So you mentioned that, and obviously, um, you said you experienced some of that as well. So talk about that a little bit. Whatever you're comfortable with, of course. I don't want to dredge up any bad memories or anything, but I'm just kind of curious. I know that's something that you are fighting or have fought against at least, and are working towards bringing people back together. So just talk a little bit about that. If you're comfortable, that is.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, of course. I, um, mean, I guess, uh, you know, after 9 11, I think one of. One of the first things that happened was very internal, which is that, um, all of a sudden your level of understanding for your own culture has to increase in that context because everyone else is asking questions.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, um, you know, they're suspicious. And, uh, you know, there's a Lot of debating of your identity happening. And in that context you sort of have to suddenly brush up your knowledge. You know, I was a, I was a 10 year old kid, um, didn't necessarily. Well, of course, you know, life looked a little bit different for me at home because we had some specific cultural norms or ways of doing things and we spoke, um, two languages at home. Um, you know, I didn't necessarily know all the ins and outs of my own religion and culture. And so I think in that kind of context, one of the things that happens is that you really have to, um, you really apply a critical lens yourself to your own, um, culture and identity and understand it in a lot more rigor than you might have previously. Um, and that's sort of forced upon you in a way partly because everyone else is asking you questions, you know, why do you do this or why do you do that? Or is it true that, um, you believe this or whatnot? And while you know what's true for you, um, and what you do believe and don't believe, these questions are not just being asked of you, they are being asked of, you know, an entire population.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so, yeah, there's a really rapid process at a very young age of brushing up on your own knowledge of who you are and who your people are.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: Um, and then, you know, there's a, that's all being unpacked in an antagonistic climate, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, people, a lot of people are very openly curious. I love that. You know, um, many people also ask me questions from a position of I'm just interested in how a different group of people do things or think about things. Um, but that's not the way the questions were usually being asked at that point in time.

Speaker B: Yeah, no.

Speaker A: Um, and even currently it's being asked in a very antagonistic way in a way that's assuming that you're inferior. Um, and you know, it's just not necessarily a pleasant way to live where your identity is viewed as second, um, sort of second class until you prove otherwise. Being on the back foot in terms of having to establish that you are morally sound. Yeah. Um, yeah. So I think that's probably the, the sense that that's how things were sort of playing out for several years there. I didn't even have it, um, necessarily as bad as a lot of people. I didn't wear a hijab. I still don't currently wear a hijab. Um, I wore one on the way to school and the way back from school when I was attending, um, The Islamic school. So there are very limited circumstances where I was kind of visibly Muslim to other people. Um, I think for women who were identifiably Muslim, it's a very different experience. Um, my experience sometimes was actually the opposite where people would assume, because of the way that I presented that um, well, first of all, they might not necessarily know I'm Muslim. I also have a Western first name, so.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: I think some people were a bit confused. Um, and sometimes people would kind of assume, uh, that I'm like in quotation marks, one of the good ones. Um, or feel comfortable to, uh, sort of say Islamophobic things often. Um, so I guess my experience of it was slightly different to some other people.

Speaker B: That's just. And you're right too. I mean, when people are asking, I mean, I love the curious people. I'm with you on that one. But there's those. And I feel like that's the majority these days that are asking questions to prove a point or to catch you, you know, ah, I got you, you know, kind of thing. And uh, and I hate that. You know, it's just like, uh, it's. They've already made the. They've already married their minds up. They've got an opinion about something. They don't really want to know the truth. They don't really want to know more. And um, it's out there and there's a lot of it going on right now and it's. I'm sorry to hear it. Still going.

Speaker A: Yeah. People exist outside of, you know, um, people don't live their lives in order to prove their identity to anyone or to prove, you know, they're morally sound or good people. People have, you know, broad and rich lives where they also just want to think about what they're having for dinner and you know, the shopping that they need to do and they've got work and all sorts of other things happening. You know, people don't need that additional burden of having to demonstrate their humanity to someone else.

Speaker B: I agree. Yeah, I've experienced, uh, some of that in a very different way and for different reasons. But unfortunately, you know, there have been times in my life where I've had to, you know, prove, am I worth any. Pretty much you are, you're, you're nothing unless you're proven worthy, like you said, in some people's eyes. And it's ridiculous and it happens way too often. So anyway, I'm glad though that for those of us who are standing up and saying, let's not do that, let's be curious. Let's get to know each other. You know, And I always keep saying, too, you'd be surprised how much we all have in common, even though we have so many rich differences. But it's just amazing when you start to get to know people. You're like, oh, this is wonderful. Why didn't I do this before? So, uh, in one way, I'm glad you have these experiences because you can relate. You can talk to others, and you can be there for them and encourage them and also educating others on, no, that's not the way we do it. We do it this way. This is the way it works. So I'm sad you had to go through it. But at the same people ask me, do you have any regrets about your life or experiences or anything? And I say, well, I would never want to go through them again. But, no, because I wouldn't be the person I am today if I hadn't gone through that pain. And now I can be more, you know, gracious and understanding and, you know, loving and respectful in ways that I. I wouldn't have been beforehand. So. Yeah. Well, tell me a little bit about a cultural experience. Maybe another one that you've had, uh, that. That stuck with you, maybe impacted you in a big way.

Speaker A: Let me think. I'm probably gonna butcher the retelling of this one. But, um, I remember. So occasionally I deliver training sessions or cultural responsiveness sessions as part of my role. And, um, as much as those sessions are about teaching or passing on skills and knowledge, they're also about learning. And I find I learned so much from those sessions. Um, and, you know, we try and do them interactively and get people to also share their reflections on culture, whether it's their own culture or other cultures. And, um. So we had this exercise where people were sharing how their culture influences their lives. And I remember, um, this one participant's reflection, which was just so insightful and, um, and really, really thoughtful. And it stuck with me because it was something I hadn't really considered before. And she shared how, um, she comes from, um, from India. And, um, she was sharing how in. In her tradition and in her culture, um, everything is connected. So, um, you know, nothing is too far removed from anything. And, you know, I'm totally not doing it justice in sharing this concept. But the way I understood it was that, um, you know, we're all related. All concepts are related somehow. And that provides kind of a level of grace when engaging with the world or, um, a different level of wisdom in being able to see the connections between everything. Um, and you know, obviously the way she explained it was very deeply meaningful to her and um, and much more articulate as well. And so it just sort of stuck with me as, as another example of how um, culture doesn't just impact, you know, your food choices and you know, what dance you do at a wedding or um, you know, it's more than just kind of, you know, plastic covers on dining tables and caricatures of um, older ethnic people. It also shapes how we see the world and fundamental things about um, our spirituality.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's really cool. So how would you say, how would you share yours? Just like she did?

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean for me my culture is a very communal culture. Um, you know, the family unit is more prominent than the individual and the family unit extends beyond the nuclear family as well. And so I think that element of um, collectivism comes up a lot for me because we do live in a society that is more individualistic than Egyptian culture or many Arab cultures. And so in little ways that comes up a lot on a regular basis. Whether it's um, you know, something as simple as norms around splitting a bill or if it's um, you know, you're filling in forms and the way it asks you about family or um, you know, even just the entire aged care system. Um, I think that theme of the collective and the role of the individual relative to a society is one that um, is similar in many non Western cultures. Um, and it's one that I probably come across the most frequently um, you know, in my day to day life.

Speaker B: Yeah, so you are, you're working a lot now you, you mentioned with Migrant Refugee Services and you're working as the CEO of the Settlement Council of Australia. So talk a little bit about what you're doing there, what um, the Settlement Council is also doing and I don't know some of the, some of the exciting projects you're working on. Any, any good stories that you've got as well?

Speaker A: So the um, Settlement Council is the peak body for migrant and refugee services in Australia. We've got um, about one member organizations that support migrants and refugees across the country.

Speaker B: Nice.

Speaker A: So our role is to do a few different things. Um, we are the policy and advocacy voice for our um sector. So we do a lot of engagement with government and um, trying to promote policies and programs that allow um, people to settle well and to have a sense of belonging and to thrive in their lives In Australia. Um, we also deliver um, a whole range of national projects. So because we have this grassroots Network across the country. We're able to, um, do work at a national scale that reaches, um, the grassroots. So, um, I'll give a couple of examples of that maybe shortly. But, um, that does involve a lot of localization work. Um, and we also do a lot of training and capacity building and have professional development functions for, um, the workforce. So that's sort of our role in a nutshell. Um, there's a lot to be. I think in a role like this you have to maintain a level of optimism. Um, there are lots of reasons to, um, despair, I think, in a space like this. But you have to maintain that there are good things happening and good things that are possible in order to continue to work in a space like this. And so I definitely maintain that. And there are definitely some things that I'm excited about. Um, one of the things that. That really gets me excited is that we do have a mass of people who do share a common goal and a common vision. And when you really think about not just our, um, member organizations, but the number of people that work in them, um, and then their families and their community groups and their client bases and all of the community leaders they engage with, there is actually a huge mass of people that are committed to an Australia where people do belong and where they thrive and where we welcome and support migrants and refugees. And I think that is probably the single biggest thing that excites me most. Um, and there are a lot of things that we've been able to do with that. Um, we, uh. You know, uh, I guess to give um, a specific example, um, we worked with Lexigo, in fact, on um, a project around, um, cancer screening. So trying to increase cancer screen screening rates among, um, migrant, uh, and refugee communities. And um, we worked with our network to first of all develop some, um, animations and resources that really resonated with cultural communities that were not just in the right language, but also that the message resonated with those people. And then, um, because we had this broad network, we were able to use that network to get really far reach. So I think we reached, um, well over 300,000 people through that project. Yeah, um, and that's just kind of one kind of tiny element of the work we do. Um, but the underlying theme is that, you know, there's a lot of people supporting this work and we can reach a lot of people through the network that we have.

Speaker B: That's incredible. So now, was that an issue where they didn't have access to cancer screening before? Is that what you're saying? Or wasn't in their language.

Speaker A: I think it's a combination of things. I mean, there's some underlying issues around access to healthcare generally, whether it's cancer screening or otherwise. Um, the costs of seeing a gp, um, mean that it's prohibitive for many people to have regular health checkups. Um, and then compounded with that, if you don't speak English well, then finding a gp, um, that can either speak your language or where you can have a positive experience using an interpreter is not necessarily easy. Um, uh, all of the campaigns. There's a lot of campaigns around cancer screening. We've all probably seen an ad around cancer screening. But if you don't speak English, um. Well, if you don't understand English fluently, then you're just missing on that, missing out on that exposure.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and then there, you know, other factors, such as, um, you know, maybe it takes a lot of extra effort to get a screening if, um, if English isn't your first language, perhaps you don't drive. Um, you know, I find often people forget that in many countries, getting a driver's license isn't a, uh, rite of passage that everyone goes through. And so if you've migrated to Australia, let's say in your. In your 30s or your 40s or your 50s, um, you know, you can't take for granted that everyone lands here knowing to drive, knowing how to drive. And yeah, getting a driver's license when you're, you know, not 16, living with your parents is a. Is a different experience. But, um, you know, again, that's just one little factor that can make it much more difficult to get a screening. Um, yeah, there's. There's a lot that goes into that, and I think it's really just about, um, you know, giving people the information they need to know that they can get a screening. That it is if you have a Medicare card, free. Um, and, you know, a bit of information on how to do that and some motivation around why it matters that, you know, um, these are. You can. You can avoid diseases or, um, treat things early if, if you get screened.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for listening today. I hope you're enjoying this conversation with Sandra. And don't forget to check out Native Experience, the book. Marc Saba, the CEO here at Lexigo, has an incredible blueprint here for authentic engagement all in one packed book. It's incredible, it's effective. And by the way, this is great for marketers, communication professionals, business leaders, anyone eager to connect deeply across languages and cultures and truly understand that native experience that we talk about here on the show, so make sure to check it out. We would love for you to give us your thoughts on it as well. Head on over to lexigo.com nx for more information on that and to grab a copy of your book. Back to our conversation with Sandra. So, okay, walking through the process, A, uh, family migrates to Australia. Ideally they come to you. How do you find them basically? And how do you know how to reach to them? And then the process, because you talked about a couple things here, but what is that process for these migrant families to really basically grow in the culture, thrive, experience that fulfilling life and be able to move forward just with everything you talked about? So you talked about health, access, you talked about even a driver's license. But what is that process and what sort of challenges do they typically face as they're coming, and how do you find them?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of different processes depending on who you are and what context you've come from and how you've arrived in Australia. Um, it's sort of each settlement journey is different, but there are some commonalities and some parallels. So, um, I guess the first thing to note is that the majority of people don't get any assistance with the process of settling into Australia. Um, we have this network that supports migrants and refugees. But, um, in Australia the majority of um, migrants aren't eligible for settlement services. So most, um, migrants arrive in Australia as skilled migrants. Um, and skilled migrants are not eligible for, um, any settlement support, any federally funded settlement support. Um, there are some programs out there that do support people irrespective of visa type. But the reality is that, um, the majority of migrants who arrive in Australia do not receive any formal support to build their lives here. Um, that's been a huge part of our advocacy because we think it's a real gap. And um, it's not always been this way in Australia. Um, uh, in previous decades, people were supported no matter what visa, um, they arrived on. And it's also not the way some other countries do it. So in Canada, for instance, um, all migrants, all permanent residents can receive settlement support. And that's a very different experience. Um, so if you've arrived, uh, and you don't have any support, uh, it's quite obviously a different process, you know, um, because, uh, we do have so many requirements to get a visa. Generally, um, you know, a primary applicant who has applied for a visa is required, for example, to meet various, um, tests. They usually have English language capability and they might be a Lot more well resourced. And that means that they arrive in Australia with a certain level of um, skills and resources that um, that mean they do ultimately sort of well. Um, but it's still a very disorienting process, um, to arrive in a new country and um, sort of be left to your own devices to figure out how the whole thing works. Um, on the other end, um, most of the formal services provided through our network are ah, delivered to humanitarian entrants. Um, people have arrived in Australia as refugees and that's for very good reason because they do arrive in a very different context. They've experienced significant trauma. Um, they're not, they haven't chosen to come to Australia. They've been forcibly displaced and have been forced to leave their countries and um, settle somewhere else. Um, and there is obviously no means testing behind that. The primary reason for resettlement is um, having faced persecution. And so um, of course in order to be resettled as a refugee in a new country, you need to be met with a house and a place to stay. Um, you know, someone can, who can help you set up a bank account and do all of those basic things. So um, that's quite a different process. Um, and it's um, that's a much more traumatic experience than say someone who has made the active decision to move to Australia in order, um, to get work here and um, for other opportunities.

Speaker B: Yeah. Wow. Well, and you're right, um, there's obviously a lot that goes on with the uh, mental and emotional health too. Now I'm curious, as they do settle in Australia, you're helping them and obviously they have to get to know the land they're in now and get to know the culture and the custom they're in. But how do you do that? How do you help them with that while still retaining their own culture and custom and language and all that?

Speaker A: Well, um, I guess most settlement work is done by the person themselves. Um, you know, yes, we have settlement services, but ultimately it's the individual who migrates, who um, you know, learns the language, who figures out how things work, who builds a new life and they do the majority of the work of settlement. Um, I think it's a really good question around retaining your own culture and adopting a new one. Um, you know, I often say that we don't have multiculturalism without culture. We pride ourselves in Australia on being a multicultural country where we have so much diversity and we have access to so much cultural richness, but we lose that unless people retain it when they migrate here.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So we we don't have multiculturalism unless people retain the links to their own culture and language. And that's something that I feel really strongly about people maintaining. Um, you know, uh, for me, even growing up, I remember, um, I didn't speak Arabic for a long time when I was young, just because I think my parents were so focused on learning English that, you know, speaking Arabic wasn't a priority because they needed to learn English and get work and, and set themselves up. And it wasn't until I was, you know, a little bit older that we kind of had the headspace as a family to be able to invest in learning our own language and customs and, and keeping, um, and keeping that alive. And I'm really grateful for that because my life would look so different if I didn't have those skills. Um, but I think we emphasize a lot people learning English and learning norms here, and that happens anyway. Um, I don't think we're at risk of migrants not learning the language and not settling in as much as we're at risk of losing cultural richness in our society. Um, people have extremely strong incentives to learn English and to learn new cultural norms and to fit in. And those incentives have always been there. There are barriers to that, and some of those are systematic barriers. Um, and we don't necessarily make it easy for people to make those adjustments. And that's part of the work that we do is supporting people to be able to make those adjustments to the best that we can. Um, but in that whole process, we forget just how important it is for people to be able to, you know, use their language skills, to have friends from their own cultural background where they can express themselves in a language that is of most comfort to them, where they can express the complexity of their emotions and feelings in a way that they might never be able to do in English, given it's their second language. Um, yeah, I think we don't pay enough attention to that part of, um, adjusting to a new society.

Speaker B: No, that's very true. So, uh, do you think there's pressure to more assimilate than keep your culture, or is it laziness? Is it, like you said, out of necessity? You had to learn. Your parents had to learn English so that they could thrive and live and put food on the table and that kind of thing too. So, uh, is there a reason why the culture isn't kept as much? I mean, it could be a lot of reasons, I guess. I'm curious. Yeah.

Speaker A: I mean, day to day, we live in a society that speaks English, where Everything operates um, on um, the terms of this culture.

Speaker B: Um,

Speaker A: everything from how you greet someone to um, you know, uh, how you uh, cue somewhere, to um, the kinds of interactions that you have with parents when you're dropping your skills, your kids off for soccer practice. Everything operates on cultural norms. The holidays that we have time off for or the holidays we don't have time off for. Society is set on a certain culture and speaks a certain language. And so by default you're engaging with that on a day to day basis. Um, you know, you have not just the opportunity to practice that culture but the requirement to practice that culture. That's just kind of the default norm. Whereas when it comes to say um, the culture that you grew up in, which if it isn't in Australia you don't have those same opportunities, um, maybe uh, year after year you're finding you have to work on your um, religious holidays. Um, perhaps you um, only speak your language um, on the weekends. Let's say you've had children who grew up in Australia and don't speak your language and so you're communicating with your children in English and um, you know, you're not using your own language as much. Um, you know, it's just not uh, maybe there isn't a language school you can send your kids to and so they can't learn their first language. Um, maybe that's relying on volunteers and because of the cost of living everyone uh, you know, has to work um, full time and sometimes additional jobs on weekends. And you know, there's no one in the community who has the um, who has the ability to take up that role of the volunteer language feature. Yeah, um, the way society is set up is, is just set up in a way that um, a certain culture is the norm because we live in, in Australia which is a country that um, although it's Aboriginal land and we all um, we all settle on Aboriginal land, the day to day norms that have been embedded in society are Western norms. And you know, is that lends people towards uh, practicing one skill more than they necessarily have the ability to practice the other one.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's, I mean that's really, really good insight and it's good to know that if, I mean, I guess it is more complicated, you know, than just kind of waving a magic wand and saying this would be the solution. If you had your way though, is there a solution that you have in mind that would help this?

Speaker A: It's not necessarily a solution but I think it's something that would, that would kind of Bring about a lot of other solutions. And I think it's, you know, as in many Western countries, there's this questioning of whether multiculturalism is a good thing. Um, and a lot of people thinking, well, you know, why should we, um, make accommodations for people from a different cultural background? Or, you know, um, why should we have cultural diversity and should we value it and is it a good thing? And I think it's really important to accept that we have the population that we have. You know, we invited people to Australia to. To be a part of our society. They settled here, and they had children here, and their children have had children here. And we have a culturally diverse society. That is a fact. People, um, have come from different places and they speak different languages. And I think it would be really helpful to. Instead of thinking about whether we should or shouldn't have a multicultural society, m To just think about how do we make a multicultural society work? Because it is multicultural. Whether we like it or not, our population is diverse, and that's not changing anytime soon. So. So I think it would. The thing that I would like to see is a shift in mentality from questioning multiculturalism to a constructive conversation about how do we make it work as best as we can in this country?

Speaker B: Yeah, I like that. That's a really good approach, because you're right. There are countries where they do not have nor believe in multiculturalism, and that's what it is. But then, like Australia and the United States and Brazil and some other countries out there that absolutely do have that multicultural approach to things, and they do want to welcome. I mean, they do. Like you said, we already welcome people. So we need. How do we figure out how to make it multicultural in a way that is beneficial for everybody there, rather than, like you said, competing, should we do it or not?

Speaker A: Or.

Speaker B: Okay, we're doing it well, but basically. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that's good. That's a good question to ask. And I honestly think, too, that that's. If you can find a way to convince people to stop looking at the. Should we have this or not? Or this person or this whatever. Just say it's what it is. We live in this country. How do we make it the best we can? I think people would shift their mindset

Speaker A: better partly to seeing people from different cultural backgrounds as your fellow citizens.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Part of the reason why this question is being asked is because people who have come from other countries are still seen as guests. But we're not guests. I mean, you know, visibly. When you look at me, I look like I'm someone from migrant background, but I was born in this country.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: You know, my passport is Australian. English is my first language. Um, you know, the strongest cultural norm, set of cultural norms I have is probably Australian culture.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, but the reason that question gets asked is because I'm still viewed as a guest. So when you view your fellow citizens, um, and uh, fellow migrants in this country as equal to you, then I think you stop asking that question.

Speaker B: Agreed. Agreed. Do you think it's a majority or a minority of people that are causing the problem?

Speaker A: Um, I mean, I have no data

Speaker B: to go with just more what your thought is.

Speaker A: Uh, I don't know. I'm not sure. I think I, um, think part of the issue is that we do categorize people as, as pro or against or good and bad.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: And um, that in itself is, is problematic because sometimes, you know, people are really good people and you know, um, just because we're good people or we, you know, um, are, ah, not the stereotype of a racist, racist person doesn't mean that we're not also part of the problem in some ways.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and similarly, someone might, you know, um, on the face of it, be anti migrants. But you know, maybe there is actually, um, other parts of their life where they make positive contributions to somebody. And I think that polarization of, um, you're either, um, you know, you're either progressive and supportive of all the right things or you're, or you're not, um, can, can stop us from being able to address the issue because we can also have this veil over our own shortcomings.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a really, really, really good perspective, you know, going through other scenarios that have very similar outcomes and questions and judgments, just like you're talking about here. And of course, even this specifically too. I mean, human beings, we're complicated in many ways and there's fear, there's comfort. Like you said, we just want to worry about what we're eating for dinner tonight or putting a roofer over our head and we don't have time to worry about all this other stuff. Then you've got the people that. It's like, well, this didn't happen to me specifically and so, oh, well, I'm going to move on kind of thing. Then you've got other people that literally have no idea what to do. They don't disagree or agree. They just kind of say, I don't know how I can help. There's so many factors, you know, like you're talking about where human beings Are, um. They're the ones that actually are the problem. And then, like you said, then there's the m. It seems to me like the majority of people are in that lukewarm state. It's a. I don't necessarily want to. You know, I don't want to engage with this because of all of those reasons I just listed. Um, it's interesting. Uh, and then I feel like there's also the side where some people. It's their mission, it's who they were made to be, to go out and champion these causes, you know, and it's not everybody's mission. So it's tough. You're absolutely right. It's a very tough thing. But what I think everyone can do is to step back and listen and be curious, like you said, and just get to know other people. Just get to know another human being, regardless of whether you believe in multiculturalism or not, and regardless of where you're at in life. But just look at another human being. Doesn't matter what they look like, where they come from, doesn't matter. And just be curious and get to know them and enjoy their company, enjoy their friendship. I feel like if we can do that, which is a very small step, a lot of things get solved, but for some reason it's not happening. Well, it is, but it's not happening all across the board anyway. So. I don't know. That's just kind of my little simplistic look at things.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, um, I think people should be concerned when other people don't have the same opportunities that they do for something that's not their fault.

Speaker B: Oh, agree.

Speaker A: In my context and in the work that I do, um, I'm concerned with the barriers that mean that people have come from other countries or migrated to Australia or don't speak English as their first language or have a different culture. I'm concerned with the barriers that prevent them from engaging in life to the full extent that they want to. But for other people, it's different things that create those barriers. And no matter who we are, um, I think we should all. It should concern us all when someone is prevented from having the same opportunities that other people have by virtue of something that's not really their fault.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, you know, whether it's because of a physical limitation or because, um, they do speak a different language or have come to Australia at an older age or, um, have had a history of torture and trauma or whatever it might be, um, I think as citizens and as people who are committed to this country, we should be committed to supporting everyone to have the same opportunities or a fair go, however we want to phrase that. Um, and that applies to everyone irrespective of their racial or cultural background.

Speaker B: I completely agree with you. So how do you inspire the people who are not currently concerned?

Speaker A: Well, I think a lot of people don't, um, don't appreciate how much impact that they can have. So um, yeah, that's a good point. You know, when I talk to people, well, first of all, when I tell people where I work that I worked at a place called the Settlement Council of Australia, they don't necessarily even know what settlement means. They uh, have no idea what I'm referring to. And so, um, then I explain what it means that it's, you know, that process of adjustment with people, you know, landing in Australia and um, basically figuring out how to live their lives here. And we support people in that process. Then we're like, okay, that makes a little bit more sense. But then people often assume that it's this job that's done by a bunch of services, um, which are in our network and it's not. Um, everyone has a role to play in migrants and refugees building their life in this country. Um, whether it's as a neighbor or as an employer. You can be the person who gives someone their first job in Australia and that person who provides someone their first job in Australia has such a huge impact on someone's life. And not just their life, their whole family's life and their kids. Well being, um, you know, you can take the time to repeat a sentence if someone didn't understand you the first time. If you work, um, in a government agency or a service, um, you can offer someone an interpreter. Um, there are so many. If you're a doctor, you can, there's all sorts of things you can do. It doesn't matter what your role is in society. Um, you know, as a teacher, as a healthcare worker, as a neighbor, as a friend to someone, as a colleague, as an employer. Everyone has a role to play in someone's settlement journey. And so I think part of it is understanding that this is something that we can do. It's not something that sits over there in a bunch of services. Mhm. It's something that we all share a responsibility for across society is really important. Mhm.

Speaker B: I agree. Everybody has a unique gift and a unique role. Like you said, everybody does. And I've heard this so many times recently, even where people say, well, I agree with that, but I can't do anything about it. I don't have any knowledge or gifting or talent or whatever, or I don't have the ability, or I don't have the status. I mean, those are the kind of excuses I've heard recently too. And I. My response is always. But you do. You actually do. You just don't believe it.

Speaker A: You do. And, uh, you know, the level of diversity in Australia is such that you are inevitably coming across people who are migrants all the time.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, you know, without intending to, you are, uh, chances are high that you are engaging with them in some capacity. And so, um, you know, those opportunities are there all the time.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. No, I agree. Okay, so the last piece of advice I will ask then is for the person who doesn't believe that they have what it takes to reach out and make a difference, regardless, we all have something. Again, how do you encourage that person to find what that is, what that uniqueness is that they can do and they can offer? Is there any kind of specific thing you've told somebody before?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, think about what you're good at in general. Step back from the multicultural or migrant space and just think about what your skill set is. Um, and then you can make the link between that skill set and how it could be useful to someone who's starting a new life. In Australia. For example, I had this conversation with someone who, um, owned a restaurant and they were saying, oh, you know, you get to work in the Social Justice League space. That's so amazing. Like, I wish I could do more impactful work. Um, you know, like telling me that they didn't see their work as very impactful or fulfilling. And I said, well, actually, um, you can have a huge impact, you know, and you're. For example, um, you could hire people from a migrant background and, and employ them and give them work opportunities. And I went on to talk about a bunch of social enterprises that had been started in Australia for the purpose of providing pathways to employment for refugees. Um, and he became really interested in, um, this whole space of a number of restaurants who had, um, set themselves up specifically to provide opportunities to refugees. Um, and sort of as a hybrid between kind, um, of a regular commercial business, um, and a charity. And, um, you know, that's just one little example of where something seemingly completely unconnected to the space can become useful in the space. Um, it's not that you have to have a skill in supporting migrants. It's just whatever skill you have, think about how you can make a positive impact with that for people.

Speaker B: I love it. I love it. I think that's a perfect note to end on right there. It's a great piece of advice and I thank you, Sandra, so much for sharing all of this and for sharing your experiences and your passion and everything you're doing right now. And it's awesome. I love what you're doing. So thank you for that. Thank you for doing what you do and thank you for taking the time and chatting with us and sharing that too.

Speaker A: Thank you so much. Such a pleasure to talk to you.

Speaker B: Sandra L. Helwa, uh, CEO of the Settlement Council of Australia. My name is Brian and thank you so much for joining us today. Today. Really appreciate it. We'd love to hear from you. As always. Questions? Comments? Email us nx lexico.com we will talk to you soon. And remember to always strive for authenticity and embrace the power of Native experiences. Have a great rest of your day.

Speaker A: Sa.