Why Small Firms Can Move Faster Than Big Law ft. Nicole Brenecki

Speaker A: I don't care what's on your resume. If you're intelligent, you can learn anything and especially work support, administrative work. It's not rocket science. These are the skill set that can be applied anywhere and for any reason. That is why people should not put themselves in these little drawers of. That's how I characterize what I do. I need to have education for that. I need to have skillset. I need to have prior experience. No, you don't. You can learn everything. That's it.

Speaker B: Welcome to between the Briefs, a podcast by Steno. Um, we're here to bring you practical tips, expert insight insights and real conversations about the pre trial process, court reporting and the legal technology shaping the future of litigation. I'm your host, Adrian SEO.

Speaker C: And I'm your host, Joe Stephens. Whether you're an attorney, paralegal, or just curious about how technology is changing the legal industry, we've got something for you. Each episode will break down complex topics, share behind the scenes intel, and talk to the people leading innovation in and out of the courtroom. So grab a coffee and let's get into what's happening between the briefs. Welcome to between the Briefs, your go to podcast for legal innovation. I'm Joe Stevens.

Speaker B: And I'm Adrian Seah. Uh, today's guest has built a reputation as a fierce litigator representing injured workers and accident victims while also bringing an international perspective to our legal practice.

Speaker C: Nicole Brunecki is a partner at Jodre Brinecki llp, where she focuses on personal injury, labor law, employment and wage claims, representing clients across New York City.

Speaker B: Uh, a four time super lawyers rising star, Nicole has also been recognized among New York's top 10 under 40 personal injury attorneys and regularly appears as a legal commentator on outlets including cbs, NBC, Fox, Bloomberg, Core TV and newswork.

Speaker C: Fluent in English, Spanish, German and Polish, Nicole brings a uniquely international perspective to client advocacy, making complex legal issues accessible to people from a wide range of backgrounds. So without further ado, Nicole, welcome to between the Briefs. How are you today?

Speaker A: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. And I'm doing very well. Hope you are too.

Speaker C: Absolutely. For sure. We usually start and we'll get into this with about your background and how you got to where you are. You're just one of, uh, a few guests that we've had who regularly makes TV appearances and you are sort of doing a lot of media appearances all the time. Let's start there. What is that like for you and what is it like to sort of be put on the spot about some sort of Pressing legal issue. How do you get ready for that?

Speaker A: You know, when someone asks me to appear and they ask me a question, I'm assuming that I'm able to answer it. That's why I'm accepting these invitations. If I thought that something was outside of my purview that I would probably send someone else or, or you know, just say, I cannot do it. But the. Usually I'm going to be very, uh, candid about that. Usually you get the topic ahead of time, so you can also prepare yourself a little bit. But there is very often recently, uh, started expanding into live news appearances. When we do, it's somewhat of an intersection between legal analysis and political commentator ing. And that is, that requires just being, being able to say things on the spot because for that one you usually do not get a topic. It's just based on whatever, whatever the breaking news is.

Speaker B: That makes a lot of sense. And do, uh, you feel like you have had to work on like, let's see your camera ready face or like, camera ready voice? Right. Because I could tell you one thing from doing the podcast so long, you gotta just be ready to shine as soon as the camera hits record. So how do you feel about that?

Speaker A: I definitely sucked in the beginning when I started. That was about three, two to three years ago. I think I did improve over time. Especially when you do live in studio appearances. Uh, it's a bit different right now when we do the computer one. In the beginning I would just look at various parts of the screen. Now I'm very trained to look directly at the camera. That is not a problem. But when you're in the studio, there's like 60 cameras around you. So you need to know which one to look at and you need to know when to look at it and then when to look at the anchor that's speaking to you. So, uh, you know, it's not really a complicated thing. But because of the lights and the fact that it's a live tv, then I guess it's a psychological element of stress. So I overcame that. Now, um, I feel more comfortable. But there are moments where I still suck so.

Speaker C: Well, I mean, you come across very poised. But Nicole, you're obviously on those shows because of your legal background and the knowledge that you have. I'm also a lawyer, but I studied. My path was very different than yours. It sounds like you were actually studying overseas. And then we're learning about American law from outside looking in. What is that like? What was that like? What was a sort of a big thing that you Took away. And how are those sort of legal education systems different?

Speaker A: So, just just to provide a bit of a background for your listeners, I was born and raised here in New York, in Long island specifically. But my mom, she's Polish, and she took me to Poland when I was very young, so I went to school there. And that's where this story is coming from. It's the reverse of what people usually do. They actually come to the country here and they do things. But I was born here, then I left, and then I came back. And obviously, this whole law school thing, I did that. So my mom gets off my back now. It became a career. Um, the main difference is that over there, the law is more statutory. There is no such thing as precedent and jurisprudence. I mean, obviously there is a body of jurisprudence because the courts issue opinions. But the difference is that everything is driven by statute more than by precedent. So that's one thing. And that is one thing that I also need to explain to my clients. Because once I came back and I went through this whole ordeal of law school and bar exam and everything else and started my business, now a lot of my clients are Polish speaking, because we, as you said in the beginning, happened to be in the personal injury field. And a huge part of that in New York is construction law because of the unique nature of our construction law protections. Uh, in New York, there's sections of the labor law that pertain only to construction workers, and they also happen to be the most, uh, the cases that yield the most profits for a lot of attorneys. So I always wanted to tap into this market. And as part of this market, I deal with Polish people, and they definitely do not have the understanding of how the system works here. So I can explain those things to them and kind of put them more on the path of understanding the claims that they break here and how those claims are litigated and how those claims are resolved.

Speaker B: How do you feel that process goes? Did you have to, like, create a framework of breaking it down? Because trust me, as someone who, when I first came into understanding the legal industry, it looked very intimidating. Right. Uh, there's a lot of steps. You can be multiple laws. You gotta understand. So how did you go about simplifying that all for your clients?

Speaker A: It depends on who's sitting in front of me. You speak to this person and you see how they think, and you address it right there. And there is no. There's no checklist on, uh, how to deal with any specific person. Obviously, you have to. You have to be able to explain the process, which is pretty much the same for every person, but then you listen to their feedback and how they react, and then you adjust on the fly. What is it that you have to tell them? Once again, you. One thing you want to do when you have a new client sitting in front of you during an intake is you want to explain to them the procedure. And first of all, right, especially right now, which I'm sure we'll touch upon how the landscape for personally. And personally personal injury has changed. But now you have to explain the fact that there is nothing but delay, denial after denial, and all these things that you have to deal, uh, with, even if your claim has merit, because there is no such thing anymore as there is a claim that has merit, and you call the adjuster and you settle the case over the phone. That's something that I saw when I first started. There is no such thing anymore.

Speaker C: So say more about that. Does that mean that you're quicker to file suit? Does that mean that, like, outline a little bit of how the evolution of that landscape has changed?

Speaker A: So I'll, uh, first answer the question whether we have to file suit. The thing that we do in this firm is unless the policy is like, 25,000, which happens in motor vehicle accidents, that I would say we always file suit, and we do it the same day of the intake. We're a very small firm, but we're incredibly efficient. I used to work at a very big firm, and files would just sit for two or three months before anyone would put them into suit and just gather dust. We do that the same day. We try to get that served the following day if the index number is assigned, because they used to be assigned immediately. Now sometimes you have to wait these days. So the court system slowed down as well. So we do file suit on, I would say, 95% of the cases that come through this door. And, you know, how it goes later. That depends on a lot of different factors, which is a big part of my criticism of the New York State court system, because it's not uniform. Every county, every judge, every part has different rules. And you also have to explain that to the clients, because the clients usually say, oh, my, you know, my friend or my cousin had a case, and that case ended in this and that amount of time. And I'm like, well, because your cousin, let's say, was in Nassau county, but you're in the Bronx, so you're going to be subject to different rules. And people very often cannot understand that. So there's just so much we could get into. On, um, this question.

Speaker B: How have you been able to keep up with the constant change in rules, especially for different boroughs and counties? Do you. You're, uh, a small team, so, you know, must be a lot to get into.

Speaker A: I don't really have a life. I work most of the time. I chose the very hard path of not only litigating those cases, but also running the business where the cases are being litigated. So everything from make sure there is toilet paper in the bathroom to make sure the trial is prepared and the cases tried is within my scope of responsibilities. So I guess it's, uh, a skill set where if you're able to do that, then figuring out what happens in a certain courtroom is not rocket science. You know, I'm not saying that I have any special skills, but as I always try to explain to our interns and our employees, don't treat this as a legal situation. Just think about, you know, it's a life situation. You need to figure, uh, what to do. Figure out what to do and when to do it and how to do it. And these are, these are life skills. And if you don't know, just simply ask. You can always go and ask a question that never hurts. You're probably going to get educated a little more than you even expected. So just by, by going around, by being present, by taking on the. On as m. In many cases as we could, especially in the beginning. There's a hallmark of all these big personal injury firms. They like to. Especially based in Manhattan. The, The. The ones that are prominent, they just like to get the perfect cases. Perfect, uh, liability. They think it's easier on them. We used to take cases that were beyond saving cases where, you know, a, uh, prior counsel did something in discovery that was irreparable. And we, the clients said that there's no way out of this. Like, for instance, salary judgment got denied. Like, no one touches those. We, in the very beginning, we used to take every single thing like this. And being able to do that gave me a big lesson as to how things work. And that, um, knowledge is carrying on over the years. But we've only been around for six years, so it's just a matter of how efficient you are with your time.

Speaker C: Nicole, I want to talk about that a little bit. What a client can get from a firm your size versus a firm that is much bigger. There's obviously a lot of advertising dollars that come out of the bigger firms. And, uh, so sometimes they. People can equate size of a firm with, you know, you get more. You get more access to more people, more money, m. Whatever it might be. You've been obviously in both sides and you've run your firm as a small, efficient operation for the last six years. What is it that is a big difference? What is a differentiator between your firm and a firm that might be much larger?

Speaker A: Uh, I'm not going to speak to every single firm, but the ones I dealt with, the ones I was hired by in the past, it's just a marketing gimmick that you get more with greater size, in fact, and very often you get less with a greater size because there's just so many people and the work is so compartmentalized and one hand doesn't know what the other one's doing. And the coordination of that workflow is not always perfect. So very often these firms take on volume, and the volume also requires having enough staff, but there is not enough staff. So they seem like. It seems like these are big firms, but they're big in terms of, you know, they have a big office, they have a lot of cases, but not necessarily the bandwidth to deal with that. And that's why. And also those, those very same firms have a philosophy that they, they don't really care that much about what's good for the client as opposed to what's good for them. So what happens is a case that could be settled in two, three years will stay on, um, the trial calendar for eight years just because the, the longer they wait, the more they get. And if you look at certain advert, certain offers, they even try to put that philosophy forward in the ad, which I, which I think it's. It's actually the most honest approach to that because you already tell the client what to expect as opposed to you have a meeting with the client, you promise them the mountains, and then the client doesn't hear from you for six, seven years and you don't even know what's going on. But the case is on the trial calendar just so they can think, they can make the carrier think that, you know, it's on the eve of trial and they're going to get slapped with a big verdict, and that's when they pay more. But the insurance industry is fighting back. So right now there's all this stuff happening in New York with rico, with all the fraud allegations. Uh, I've written an op ed about that. In January, I was at the peak of my frustration because we have, uh, from the day one that we started the firm, we always take a case, take a client and the philosophy has always been that instead of milking, taking one person and bringing them to wit's end and milking them and having them wait for eight, nine years so I can maximize the profits. If we turn this around for this person, make them happy, they will bring us more clients. And that is why we're here and we're still alive and we're doing okay. But this is not the overall philosophy in this field. It's also something I'm, um, critical of and, you know, maybe doesn't yield me a lot of fans, but I think it's the right way. You cannot put ads on tv, say you care about injured New Yorkers when you actually injure them more. So. So, you know, that's. That's. But that's just me.

Speaker B: That should be the billboard, uh, ad. You can't be putting ads when you're

Speaker A: going to injure billboard. Then there's going to be a bunch of things on that. But I. I have to. I had to deal with COVID I had to deal with inflation. I had to deal with all these things at the same time. You know, maintaining the appearance of growth and expansion so that people still keep coming and having trust. So it's a lot of different factors, but there will be a time where I will be more. More vocal because I have the means to do so. So wait for that.

Speaker B: So, Nicole, you mentioned running a small but mighty team. What goes into your thought process when it comes to hiring? Like, how do you decide who can join your team? When's the right time to scale?

Speaker A: I don't care what's on your resume. If you're intelligent, you can learn anything and especially work support, administrative work. It's not rocket science. These are the skill set that can be applied anywhere and for any reason. That is why people should not put themselves in these little drawers of. That's how I characterize what I do. I need to have education for that. I need to have skillset. I need to have prior experience. No, you don't. You can learn everything. That's it. So we have a very, very small team. And the team is just. It's just fantastic. It's just. We have the smartest paralegal, we have the smartest law interns. You know, we don't. Like when I went to get internships, people say, oh, you can do document review because you're just an intern. I used to go work for people who will let me write an appeal, let me write a lawsuit, let me write a motion for summary judgment, and, uh, When I passed the bar, I already knew how to do all these things. And that's why I feel that the industry is the way it is just to benefit the people who are running it, because it's. It's, you know, if you want to surpass what is typically how things are typically done and handed out in terms of work assignments or whatever, you can do it. But I have always seen there's. There's this big ceiling above me, and I just started my own business, and now, guess what? There's no ceiling I can do anything from. Going to try a case is just a matter of making sure the clients come, that you have the clients. But then you can do everything else that this license allows you to do. And nobody's going to tell me, oh, you can't go argue at appeal. Yes, I can, and I did, and we haven't lost one. Okay, so that's it. Have some coffee, if you don't mind, of course.

Speaker C: Uh, Nicole? So I would tend to agree with what you just said. I really believe that so many of these teachable skills are, I don't want to say overvalued, but I think if people want to apply themselves to it, like, I can teach you the rules of evidence.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: I do want to talk, though, about what are some of the skills that you find to be kind, critical to the profession, but that are unteachable. So you, for example, obviously, I'm, um, not necessarily going to be talking. Talk about like, you're multilingual. Right. That's a skill that takes a lot of time, but like bedside manner with clients, the ability to actually communicate with opposing counsel in a way that is beneficial to your client, or stand in front of a judge or stand in front of the jury. Take all the things that you know and distill them into something meaningful. Do you look for skills like that? How do you prioritize them in other people? And then how do you sort of. What is unteachable to you?

Speaker A: Well, it depends on who we're speaking with. So, for instance, for myself as the person who does an intake when a new client comes in versus, you know, going to trial. So different skill set that is critical and indispensable versus, like, for instance, an administrative person, for those, I would say, attention to detail. And if you, on any given day feel like you're. You're too tired, like you're too worn out, you can always come to me and tell me, and I'm always going to send you home and pay you for the day. We, uh, that, that's what, that's what happened to me when I worked as a paralegal. They would expect like, oh, stay until seven. No, because I work three times faster and I don't need to stay there until seven because I stayed until four and I get so much more done. So these types of things, that's how you treat people. You need to make sure you can adapt on the spot. So I say it's developing an instinct for whatever you do, you need to develop an instinct. And one way to develop an instinct is to be around stuff all the time, to experience things, to not have a very clean cut experience. So I went to school, I was a valedictorian. Okay, no one cares. Because then you go, you have to do a job and the first person already gets, uh, the first client you have, it gets under your skin and you have a break now. So that's, that's the thing. It has to be a combination of book knowledge, street knowledge, and all these things for you to be able to survive, especially in New York, and especially in a contingency business, because that's another thing that no one talks about. We are so young and so small as a firm. We have to, uh, survive in the sense that if a case takes six or seven years, then how am I going to make sure that the lights are on? We have to turn other smaller cases around quicker. So I have to, I, I went into this with zero dollars, zero capital. No daddy, no mommy giving me money, no one. So we went with $0. We used to, me and my business partner used to split money for a roll of stamps and things of that nature, go to the post office by ourselves. And it was just 20, 19 when we did that. So, you know, if you, if you did not know how to survive. So maybe just an experience of, of, of being poor also helped in the past because you just don't spend money on things that are unnecessary. That's another skill that I think helped us survived. Because when I speak to my peers, my counterparts, like, oh, I have these 20 jury consultants. I have all these people. I have an executive assistant putting things on my calendar. I'm like, uh, exactly. And you don't know what to do anything yourself. You know, like, I do everything myself to this day. And you know, doing that, it really, really etches things in your brain. So, uh, it's a survival skill. You know, imagine if there was an apocalypse outside right now. Like, who would survive knowing that the person who experienced more things, that did more things and not Compartmentalized so much so I would say just don't be easy on yourself when you really want to get good in doing certain things. There's so many, so many skills that go into this, but I think if you're a person that runs on instinct, then you can adapt to anything and you can survive this business just as any other one.

Speaker B: Nicole, is there any type of technology that you've incorporated into your firm at all just to either help with the workload or speed things up for yourself?

Speaker A: Well, I started using AI very, very late in the process. I've already had people just, uh, you know, text. I would see the hallmarks of ChatGPT and in emails, messages and everything, I'm like, did you really need to use ChatGPT to just tell me one or two sentences? But I started, uh, doing that myself too, because I learned how to tell it to do things that I basically, I guess what it's called is giving them the right prompts. Right. So I learned how to do that for myself so that the work product that comes out of it, it really resembles what I would like to do. So sometimes I sit here, I yell at ChatGPT and I get what I want out of it, but I started doing it like just a couple of months ago, so that's the only thing. But no one else in my office does it. Like, my, my law partner is so old school. Like he's just 10 years older than me, but he's, uh, I would say an old soul. So he takes him a little longer to, to actually incorporate these types of things. So he's not, he doesn't use it at all. My staff never seen. So we just, uh, we have Cleo for file maintenance, for, you know, for. To put in our cases with the documents and everything. We use Clio. We have a Google Drive that I think is 99% full. And that's about it. We did, we did meet with a lot of companies using AI for automation to create settlement demands and everything. I don't do that because when you speak to adjusters like you, it's, it's obvious that they use AI to analyze medical records. And that's how, and that's how you can actually win a negotiation with an, uh, adjuster because he, they're just so automated and so robotic right now for the, for the most part that you can just tell them details and things that you would say at trial. And that's how I always get the, a little extra money squeezed out of them. So I, I like to, I Like, to just still use my eyes. And we have 200 cases and. And just between the two of us. So, uh, it's possible. You know, it's possible. And I still sleep eight hours a day, every day, so it is possible. You don't have to use AI for everything and anything, But I would say it's a really good tool. But it's limited to being used as a tool. Use it as a tool and not as a, uh, as, you know, as a replacement of you. So if I can carve out a very, very small, very well defined task that I would find too tedious for myself, then I'm going to use AI for that. But nothing that would deprive what I'm doing of the personal touch.

Speaker C: Nicole, you were operating. Obviously you started with zero, and you're operating early on, especially on the onset of COVID like with the thinnest of margins, razor thin margin for error. But you now have you said a couple hundred cases. How are you deciding at the intake process? Are there red, uh, did you have to say yes to cases that you otherwise would say no to? Now, how does your intake process change? Are there red flags that you look

Speaker A: out for right now because of the. The rise in what's called fraud, which is also ridiculous because fraud has been around for a long time, and a lot of these people who are, uh, members of the bar and they have these firms, they have used it to their advantage. I have seen it with my own eyes, and I know that it's been around for a long time, and that's how the growth and the wealth of these firms have been built to a great extent. So, uh, no one will tell me that this isn't true. But my problem is that it trickles down to companies like mine. When we have no fraudulent clients, when I speak to a person, we ask them detailed questions that we can immediately, on the spot, say if you. If you're lying, it's just. It's just so obvious, because these things are very, very, very easy to determine. So we personally have not had any fraudulent cases. M. Okay, maybe in the beginning there was one case that turned out to be fraud. But the moment that we found that out, we immediately withdrew. We would never do anything like this, and we would never support that. We would never pay a runner, a doctor. I don't know how, uh, familiar you are with the RICO cases that are right now being brought about against a lot of doctors, against a lot of personal injury lawyers in New York. There is, you know, a lot of debacles surrounding that. But we have never, we have never done that ourselves. So if someone comes with a, uh, with something that's, I would not say strong liability, but plausible liability and they have any type of conceivable injury, I will take the case. It doesn't matter if it will fare $10,000 or 10 million. We will still take it because we're still young enough to make sure that this person is going to bring us 10 other clients. And that's exactly how this whole case portfolio has been developed. I don't care if this is something that I will settle over the phone in two months. If you just go to physical therapy 10 times takes a second, not a problem. It's not a waste of time because you're going to bring us more clients. And I have had cases that were worth 10k that brought me cases worth 50 million and that's it. Because this one person was treated very well, was not sent back, was not ridiculed in any way, like, oh, this isn't worth my time or my effort or whatever. It's the same set of activities that you have to do to bring any claim, whether it's a Geico little Geico case or whether it's a gigantic construction accident is the same set of things. You file suit, you pay the fee $216.28. The lawsuit is m. Mostly copy paste. Like, what is it different that you're doing that you're too good to take on the small case unless you don't care about developing the business? I'm still at that stage where I care. So the, so I take every single case. Just as long as you have a credible account of what happened. There is no hallmarks of any type of fraud because we don't do that. Even though, as I said, there is right now this big wave of fighting fraud, which is ridiculous because it's been, it's been around for a long time. It benefited most sides and nobody both sides. And no one ever did anything until recently post Covid because there was some few new actors that I guess joined the fraud that were not accepted in the community. And now they started, uh, filing these lawsuits. But that's just something that has always been around and it's trickling down because right now I have to defend and do discovery in cases with obvious liability, with obvious injuries, cases where accidents are on camera. They're still going to say that my client is exaggerating injuries. And it's all because of these people who committed fraud. Uh, the big firms that did not have enough of the profits now it's trickling down to us. And everything we do is also harder to close. But we're still doing it. So, yeah, you can read the op Ed. I wrote it actually. I actually spent. I was at the height of my frustration in January of this year, and I wrote this Op ed came out in AM New York, and it was really. It really did strike a chord because I got a lot of feedback from insurance companies on LinkedIn and everywhere, and everyone was very, very upset about what I wrote. So I wrote how it really is. So I've seen it from both sides. I've witnessed it as a student, as a paralegal, then going into this profession on my own. There are people who need to be taken accountable for this, held accountable. I'm sorry, but insurance carriers, if you listen, do not label every single thing fraud because you paid the defense counsel money for defense, and you're wasting that money because they're not doing anything, but they're pretending like they need to defend these cases to delay them into perpetuity. So you are wasting more money in the long run than this is worth. Not everything is fraud. Not everything has to be treated as such.

Speaker B: Nicole, when it comes to taking in new clients, particularly ones that are multilingual, uh, or ones that don't speak English, how do you feel you end up connecting better to them because you can speak their language? Is there a sense that they can really only come to you because, you know, you understand what. How. How to communicate with them?

Speaker A: The communication is very important to, to manage a person's expectations, to explain the process so that they don't get frustrated. They don't start going around asking other attorneys for advice, because attorneys may want to poach the client. I'll, uh, promise them other things. You know, so there's. There's so much that goes into that. But also a language usually is tied to a certain culture, and a culture is usually tied to a certain mentality. And this is not. Thinking in stereotypes, has nothing to do with that. But it is a fact. Not everyone. Like, for instance, a lot of my. I'll give you one example. A lot of my Polish construction workers are of a certain age. A lot of them came to this country after or during the time where there was communism in Poland and all these things, they affect the way people think. They come to this country. They don't really understand how the institutions work, the government, how the court system works, how the society functions, what are the priorities of capitalists so far? Because, you know, Right now, there seems to be a trend in a different direction. See what happens with that? But that is. It's helpful to be able to speak the language. But I'm not going to lie to you. It's not like I was so super fluent in the cultural aspects and everything of that country either. I was, uh, born and raised here, and I spent some time there as a child, came back, and my mentality is from here American. I was born here, I'm probably going to die here. Um, I'm happy as an American. So it's not like I was such a cultural expert where, you know, the language is a tool. It's just like AI is a tool. Language is also a tool where you can get closer to this person. But I think interpersonal skills, they work the same regardless of who you're dealing with. You just have to be able to adapt based on who's in front of you.

Speaker C: Talking about skills, Nicole, I actually want to talk specifically about litigation skills. What are some litigation skills that you feel are underrated, overrated? Did you ever get early on in your career from any of the work that you were doing, any really critical trial advice, advice that you've taken with you?

Speaker A: No, nobody ever gave me any advice. This is all being gatekeeped. I have interns who, uh, worked for us that went to work for a big defense firm or big plaintiffs firm and would come back here and say, oh, my God, I'm so happy to be back because you actually explained things that I learned so much and over there I didn't get to do anything. So they make you go through that ladder. I'm a big proponent of, no, don't do that if you don't have the patience. I don't have the patience. I never wanted to do that. So, uh, nobody ever taught me anything. I taught everything myself. I mean, Jordan, my business partner, was actually my supervisor at a big plaintiff's firm. And he did teach me the basics of litigation to the extent that he was able to, and the drafting for litigation. So I did get a lot of drafting advice from him, but it was not like you were sitting in and, you know, he was giving me a lecture. It was like I drafted a paper and then he would cross everything out and then give me, like, the paper with everything, you know, revised, and I would incorporate the revisions and I would learn what's better. So, you know, it depends on what aspect of litigation we're speaking when it comes to the day to day. Because trials, you know, trial, this is this glorified type of an attorney. But trials happen very rarely as you know. So when you look at the day to day litigation, drafting complaints, motions, whatever. My main advice and the main skill that I think I got is to be succinct. No, the court system is so overloaded. In New York, judges have over a thousand cases on their docket. This is not federal court where the judge knows what the case is about. This is high volume environment. And this is another skill that I developed myself. Don't give them essays. Nobody has time or the bandwidth to read your eulogies. Just go succinctly to the point. And once you do that, you will see how it is appreciated. And I understand that as well because we have volume here too. And I don't need to hear the whole story. That's another skill that comes in here. You need to be able to make, manage the client. Because if you don't manage the client and to control the client to a certain extent, they will come and tell you the story for five hours. I don't have time for that. So you need to make sure you steal them gently towards the meritorious question that you have. So it's that with the client, with the court system, be succinct, be to the point. If you have a request, just make sure you state your best basis, your best foot forward for that request. It will be very much appreciated. When it comes to trials, obviously it depends on what jury you end up with. There's some skills for Ward here, you just need to be a people's person to understand them, interact with them and have them. Like you. You know, I've done trials where. But also. But I do believe that as a society in general, we tend to seek justice and we would assess things on the merits. So I've had trials where I think like I started out very, very well because. And I do things on both sides. I do, you know, we do personal injury and employment law. But I also do a lot of things on the side. Whatever I like to do, I just do it. So I've recently tried, uh, a big copyright and trademark infringement case that ended in a $1 million judgment against my client. My client got on the stand and said he did it and he's proud of it and he'll do it again.

Speaker C: It's hard to overcome.

Speaker A: M. Yes, it was just a bunch a matter of managing the damages aspect. So, you know, we started out and I thought the jury loved me, but then they ended up with this verdict because just my, my, my. I guess they had a different opinion of my client and what he said. So there are so many things. And also there. There we arrive at another skill. Just don't get upset when something doesn't work out, because you're never going to win every single thing. We have a fantastic track record of winning, but it's not always winning. So you have to get over that. And if you're a perfectionist, which I think I am, then, you know, sometimes you can get a little too much on your head. You know, I managed to manage my own expectations too.

Speaker B: Nicole, this is going to be more of a personal question, but what role has music played in helping you unwind after a long work week? I understand you run a record label called New York Tracks. I'm a big fan of techno myself, and especially here in Miami. So would love your. Your take on this.

Speaker A: So it is. I know it's in my bio, but it's something that I don't really do anymore. I would be lying right now if I said that I'm still actively putting out those records I did. The last one was right before COVID And then, you know, uh, those records are. It's kind of seminal when you put things out on vinyl. You don't have to do it every two weeks. You know, it can be. The release in itself can have some longevity. So I wouldn't say it's stale right now, but it's something that. It's where all my. All my work in that field died around that time because of the responsibility that starting the law firm, um, became. I do this. This is what I do now seven days a week practically. When you combine it with my media work, it's just seven days a week. But I did. The music was with me since I was in my late teenage years to all the way through, like, um, when this firm became more successful and groot. So I. Before I started the record label, I used to organize parties, raves, warehouse raves, other types of raves, force raves, everything under the sun. I used to be very active in that scene. Clubs, you know, a, uh, more informal settings. And then after years of organizing events and being like an event promoter, I started the record label and it was also very, very successful. It had made waves, uh, because the. The tracks I was putting out were different than whatever was popular in the. In the scene at that time. I would. I always tried to show something different. So I started that with the idea we would be only putting out New York artists that make a bit of a different sound. And that's why it's Called New York Tracks with an X. But, you know, that is just right now. But. But I'm happy. I'm happy with the way I ended it because everything we put out was met with very favorable. It was received very favorably. And there was really a, um, high anticipation of these records coming out. So ending it at that high note, you feel like you did not burn yourself out creatively and you can just leave it there in the past. And it's like, wow, such a nice thing I did. And I left it at that, um. And without too much volume, without. With the quality decreasing.

Speaker B: Yeah, I wanted to follow up on that. So you said that you left her in a good place. Is there anything that you learned from event production and planning that you take into being an attorney today?

Speaker A: Absolutely. Maybe not as much as being an attorney, but running a business because the logistics skills, the skills sounding in organizing things and making sure that things flow and that you come up with a project and use from start to finish, you can implement that and execute it is the same skill set. Doesn't matter what it is that you do is the same skill set. And I am very concerned with developing skills as opposed to getting, you know, things on my wall or papers or all these certificates, because that benefits. I still pay my student loan to this day. I'm wondering why. Because they didn't teach me anything, teach me anything. So, you know, I still paid on my gama and just, Just let it go. Right. Because they did not teach me anything. Not, no offense to the school. The school was great. I didn't show up much, but it was great when I did. I always was more concerned with, like, getting a job and actually going and seeing what the. What the lawyer does, you know, at the office or in court or. And then I go to school and they tell me, oh, read this tort case from the 1800s. I'm like, great. Well, I don't know how to buy an index number at the clerk's office. These are the things I would teach people. But there's a reason they're not being taught. And I'm not being. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm not. But there are obviously unspoken reasons for why things are organized the way they are. That's it.

Speaker C: Nicole, you are seven days a week. You've said goodbye to your, like, pre law passion with music. You're running the business side of everything. You're also in a profession that is, like, deeply antagonistic or can be rife with inefficiencies. I'm kind of just curious, like, what your drive is, what, what is the, your motivation? What is what keeps you going and why are you just like, how do you propel yourself through this?

Speaker A: I just want out of it. I just want to leave this. I. I never wanted to do what I do. So I'm always in a rush because I just don't want to do it. So I come here every day. For instance, today I'm sitting here drafting an infant compromise order and it's just reciting the same stuff. This is the court requirement list is putting the same stuff that's already in all the documents that was submitted. And I'm like, why are we doing this? So I just want out of this. I want to be a politician. I've always wanted to be a politician ever since I started speaking. My mom said that I'm always saying that. So I just want to make enough money so I can support myself without asking people for money. I don't come from a rich background, so I had to do all of that myself. Once I feel like it's enough that, um, you know, that I will take that on the road and I will run for an office and every, every person I help right now. And with the degree of involvement and the degree of care and everything, I truly hope that these people will remember what I did for them and they will go and vote for me when that time comes. But I. All I see is I would like to improve the society. I would like to find ways for us to be efficient, to cut through the sludge, to. To stop wasting time and money and stop wasting talent and stop going in circles and going through cycles. So I. These are, these are the things I would like to do in life. And I think that I've implemented that in whatever activity I've undertaken so far, whether it be this firm or whatever else I did before. So that's just, you know, long term goal. Hopefully that works out. And if not, then I'll just, uh. Everything here is set up so I can just, you know, take another case. If that doesn't work out, then it will just, uh, stay here and keep doing what we're doing now.

Speaker B: Nicole, we always ask this at the end of our conversation, and that is, what is your hottest take on the legal industry right now?

Speaker A: Perfectly ties into what I just said. Stop going in circles for your own benefit. Try cutting through the inefficiency. Don't think of every client, every person as a billing opportunity. Because if you actually focus on what this job is at heart, then you're going to make more money in the end of it. Stop over billing. Stop doing unnecessary discovery. I hate this. Don't do interrogatories when you can depose a person. There's so, so many things we can do to be more efficient, and then we will have more time for ourselves. And remember this high, this whole hierarchy should also be cut down because there is all these associates sitting in cubicles for 11 hours a day during the best time m of their lives, when their brains are at, uh, their best. Just that somebody at the top of the hierarchy can bill insurance carriers and whatever that whole structure is benef. And I know it's a form of capitalism, and I love capitalism. I'm not a communist. I never will be. But the thing is, we can do the same and make money as well, but we don't have to make people suffer, and we don't have to make our clients suffer. We don't have to make ourselves suffer. So be more efficient. That's it.

Speaker C: Well, that's the first time we've had a hot take like that. Nicole, I love it, but, uh, definitely, firmly believe everything you're saying about efficiency. You definitely seem to embody it perfectly. So with that, that's a wrap on today's episode of between the Briefs. Big thank you to Nicole for joining us, sharing your perspective on everything here today. Adrian, do you have any final thoughts?

Speaker B: No. Nicole, this has been an incredible conversation. Thank you so much for joining us here. I can see the passion you have for what you do, and I love to see it, uh, just visibly in this podcast. So thank you so much.

Speaker A: Thank you very much for having me. I go to Miami very often, so I'll hit you up when I'm there.

Speaker B: Be sure to subscribe to between the Brief for more conversations with leaders shaping the future of law, business, and innovation. And we'll catch you on the next one. Up next on, um, between the Briefs, before you go, mark your calendars. We're heading to Ilticon 2026, and this time, we're bringing the heat, literally. Joe and I are sitting down for a full recap of everything between the briefs, plus hot takes. This time with our. Our brand new hot sauces. New sauces, real tears, and hot takes you will not want to miss. So stick around. It's about to get spicy. Stay tuned for the full interview. Coming to you soon. Between the Briefs is brought to you by Steno to find out more about Steno and how we combine exceptional court reporting and litigation support services to deliver a superior litigation experience experience. Visit steno.com that's S-T-E-N-O.com and then make sure to search for between the Briefs in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere else you get your podcasts and click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. On behalf of the team here at Steno, thanks for listening.