Why Paralegals Are Quietly Becoming More Valuable Than Associates ft. Michelle Pendleton

I learned that people say use common language, use natural language. You also have to be cognizant that you're talking to a machine or, you know, thinking of it in terms of you're talking to someone who may not know anything about the legal profession or whatever profession it is that you're dealing with when you're asking those questions from AI. So I learned that I have to take a few steps backwards when I'm starting those prompts because I tend to just jump in and I'm used to using the jargon and I used to using legal tools that know exactly what those parameters are. I'm looking for a brief. I'm looking for anything like that when you use a term and it just comes automatically to you. So I think that is one of the biggest things is just learning to speak a little bit differently and start at the beginning instead of like two or three steps in. Welcome to between the Briefs, a podcast by Steno. We're here to bring you practical tips, expert insights and real conversations about the pre trial process, court reporting and the legal technology shaping the future of litigation. I'm your host, Adrian SEO. And I'm your host, Joe Stephens. Whether you're an attorney, paralegal, or just curious about how technology is changing the legal industry, we've got something for you. Each episode will break down complex topics, share behind the scenes intel, and talk to the people leading innovation in and out of the courtroom. So grab a coffee and let's get into what's happening between the briefs. Welcome to between the Briefs, your go to podcast for legal innovation. I'm Joe Stevens. And I'm Adrian Seah. Today we're joined by Michelle Peddleton, certified paralegal and litigation e discovery paralegal at Allen Matkins and president of the San Diego Paralegal Association. Michelle brings over 15 years of hands on experience across litigation, personal injury and medical malpractice and has played a critical role in supporting complex legal matters behind the scenes. From her early days as an independent paralegal to her leadership role today, Michelle has seen how the paralegal profession has evolved, especially with the rise of ediscovery and legal technology. Michelle, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here today. How are you? I'm good, thank you. I'm glad to be here. It's great to have you on. We're so happy you're here. So how about you give our audience a little bit of background about yourself, tell us more about your profession and what got you into paralegal. Work? Well, actually, I kind of fell into it. I started working as a receptionist in a small law firm, and I got interested, started reading things that were coming across my desk. I became a legal secretary for a couple of years, and then I convinced my firm that I should be a paralegal, and they helped me go to school, and I've been doing it ever since. Michelle, did you get any sort of guidance early on in your career that really mattered a lot to you? The biggest thing for me was to always ask one more question. I think in litigation, that's a big, big thing to think about, because even if you get something that looks like it's pretty simple and obvious on its face, it's not always that way when you start to dig in and look at the actual information and the documentation, especially the evidence. So that kind of drew you and really taught you a lot. Yes. I think I remember responding to an interview question once as saying that I was nosy. Well, nosy means you ask the right questions, so that is the best thing. I always say. Being curious is one of the best skills that you can have. Just understanding that there's always more to learn. Absolutely. I think I learned something new every single day. Still love that. And what got you into Ediscovery specifically? It just kind of organically came into place. I mean, we're dealing Even, you know, 10 years ago, we were starting to deal with so much more information, so many more documents. Emails were coming online. So those were starting to be a big deal. And there just wasn't a way to not deal with those electronically anymore. It was necessary. So I started learning what I could. I poked and prodded at the firms that I was at to move into Ediscovery to start using those tools. And I did what I could before they were ready. So, you know, I asked the questions, I contacted people that I knew. I got trial access to databases and started poking around to see, you know, what. What we could find that would help us. Michelle, I feel like I always love speaking with paralegals or to an audience of paralegals, because they. They really are such unsung heroes in this world in so many different ways. Can you. When someone says they're a paralegal, it could also mean that they're doing a million different things. What is that thing in a paralegal that makes them so, like, where does that come from? I'm just so interested in the idea that, you know, here's this profession that is so integral to the practice, and it does tasked with so many different things, and they're expected to do it all with poise and with precision and with accuracy and repeatability and all of these different things. Is that true? Am I characterizing your profession the right way? Or how would you describe sort of what a paralegal is and what a paralegal does to people? We are kind of a jack of all trades, like I just said. You know, I. I do something different almost every day, at least a little bit that I haven't done before. You know, whether it's today, I'm using Google Earth to map a demonstrative for a hearing. I have never been one of those people that played with Google Earth before, so I'm learning how to do that and make all those adjustments. But I think that. And just being willing to make those adjustments because it's a constant movement in terms of what the case requires, what the judge requires, what a witness might require to take their deposition properly. There's no accounting for how that can go. It can change on a dime, and it does very frequently. You know, we had an arbitration just a few weeks ago. We went in prepared to do it one way and to run it one way, and the judge took a look at a binder. We prepared for our witness and said, okay, well, we're going to do this from now on. So we had to, like, switch gears. We had to do all this extra work. We had to get everything prepared. And I'm sure the other side hated us because. Because they had to do the same. So it just. It's just being flexible and willing to do those things and, you know, step out of your comfort zone a lot. When you spoke about udiscovery, you mentioned how there were new tools in the game and you just put your best foot forward to learn them and just figure it all out. I'm sure there wasn't exactly, you know, guidance on this. You probably had to learn a lot of this yourself. Do you think that same concept still applies today? With the emergence of AI and all these new tools? Are you finding that it's easier to learn new technology as it was, or is it harder than it was before? I think it's easier now. I think we took some huge steps forward with all of that with COVID You know, the one good thing that came out of it, because there's so much free education, there's so much out there online and webinars, you know, used to. You would have to go to a class and you would have to show up in person and, you know, you would have to pay money because they have to pay for all of that. They have to pay for the facility, they have to pay for the people to come and not be able to work that day. And now it's just, it's so much more available out there. So, I mean, I, I just took a. An AI prompting course with University of Florida after they had their most recent tech conference. And, you know, you do it at your own pace. You do it online, it's free. If you want to get their certificate, it's like $30 or something, but you don't have to. It's a lot easier now, I think. And there's so many more options, too. So what did that class teach you, Michelle? What were some of the takeaways that you remember from, from now that you've brought back to your prompting? I learned that even though you people say use common language, use natural language, you also have to be cognizant that you're talking to a machine or, you know, thinking of it. And in terms of you're talking to someone who may not know anything about the legal profession or whatever profession it is that you're. That you're dealing with when you're asking those questions from AI. So I learned that I have to take a few steps backwards when I'm starting those prompts, because I tend to just jump in. And I'm used to using the jargon, and I'm used to using legal tools that know exactly what, what those parameters are. I'm looking for a brief. I'm looking for, you know, anything like that when you use a term, and it just comes automatically to you. So I think that is one of the biggest things is just learning to, to speak a little bit differently and start at the beginning instead of like two or three steps in. Now, I'm sure you've heard this phrase before, and that is the concept of managing your manager. Right. And as a paralegal, I'm sure attorneys can ask the world of you, and there's only so much you can do. So what are some practical tips or things that you've learned to do when it comes to managing how you work with your attorneys? I always let the attorney know right away if there's someone ahead of them. If I'm working on something that has to be done and it's got to be done that afternoon and someone else comes in and says, hey, I need this, I immediately respond, okay, what's your timeline? Because I'm working on this and I need to get it done. Today, I always kind of give them that expectation so that they're not expecting me to jump right on something. When I say, oh, sure, you know, I'll handle that, and starts to get into their way of thinking and their way of communicating that they get better about giving me that timeline from the beginning. They'll send me an email and say, hey, can you do this for me today? Hey, can you do this for me? It's not a rush, you know, tomorrow, by Friday, that kind of response. So I think that's one of the biggest things, because I tend to want to say yes to everything and get all of the things done. And sometimes you just can't because you can't do all of the things if they're all due at the same time. If we flip that around, Michelle, what are some behaviors that you've seen, like positively, if you. From attorneys to you to paralegals, and is there any guidance that you would give. You would like just generally attorneys to have and maybe how not to engage with paralegals? It's a very fine line between giving detailed instructions and giving, like, instructions that you would give to AI As I was just said, we tend to know where we're starting from, so we don't need the step by step from page one. And, you know, I personally, I don't take it personally, but I do know people that they see that and they automatically go, oh, this is so condescending. And then that starts to color the way that they're communicating from then on. So I think I would. I would say treat them like they already know where you're coming from and start there and talk to them like you would an associate rather than like you would an administrative assistant who has only been working here for, you know, two or three months. Because I think that. That a good paralegal will ask the questions if they don't know. Yeah, it feels. I mean, it feels like. It's amazing to me how many times in this profession. I'm a lawyer myself, obviously, and like, you're just talking about being a good human being, you know, not. Not condescending, treating someone with respect, being kind to them, not taking them for granted, not presuming they don't know anything, like meeting them where they are. I. It's interesting to me how often in this line of work there is just a need to return to some basic values. Sometimes that's the actual guidance. That's the reset is just remember that this isn't a new set of rules. This is just about being a Good person. I would definitely say that. I mean, communication is so important. It definitely is. And I wonder, has using tools like AI helped you in communicating your ideas to attorneys or preparing your ideas for a case? How do you go about using it in your day to day? Well, I have only used it in a very general sense for work just because we're kind of still rolling out some of our tools so we don't have access to all of them in our enterprise section. So I have to be very careful about what I put in, what I'm looking for. But I have definitely used it in terms of, hey, I have this meeting with a supervisor or I have this meeting with an attorney, give me some talking points or how do I ask these questions of this person and kind of like getting the way to ask those kinds of questions just in a general sense. And I've obviously, you know, I love, I love the built in AI for Google in terms of starting to ask a question when I'm doing something that I haven't necessarily done before. You know, hey, how do I, how do I execute on a, a writ for a piece of personal property that's attached to real property that's not owned by the same person and you know, that kind of thing, it'll pull it down, I can jump to where they got the information from and I can actually get like the code, I can get the checklist, I can get that kind of thing. So that is so helpful. Yeah, no, I bet. I mean, it's tremendous. What access we have now to answer is there was so much, you know, harder to discover before. Over the last couple of years there's been, maybe this is just a natural trend, right? Like there's new technology, there's skepticism, there's early adoption, there's fear. And I think that was definitely true in the paralegal community as well. I mean, it was with lawyers. It definitely is in other sectors too. But there was fear about what this technology meant to the future of the profession. How do you think paralegals are generally considering that now? Are they embracing technology the way that you are or is there still some sense of what does this mean for our industry? I think it's a mixed bag. I've heard a lot of people say that they, they aren't comfortable with it, they don't trust it. They're worried that their firms are going to, you know, use that in place of them as well as the associates, that they're going to use it to cut costs. But I think most people that are generally comfortable with the technology. They're going to embrace the AI as well, because it's just one more, it's one more tool, it's one more step in the process and we're still there at the beginning. I've just had this conversation with someone about, hey, what would the paralegals actually use this AI for when they, when they get access? You know, here we need to make the case for, you know, bringing you guys in. And it's, it's those step by step things that say, hey, we can do so much with it. You know, I've already been asked to do things with it and I have to like, pull someone else in to take that extra step because I can't do it myself. But we can still guide the process. Even while we're, while we're learning and we, while some of the firms are still taking their time kind of thing. It makes sense. You're like quietly influencing, you're able to push it in the direction that it needs to go. Yeah, we can say, hey, this tool, we have this tool. Let's see what we can get out of it. Let's ask it to run through and see what the response is. Let's see how many iterations it takes to get, you know, the information that we want. And if it's helpful, I would love your, your take on how you've seen the role of the paralegal change throughout the years. I feel like the role they play today is not the same. It was maybe 10 years ago. How would you describe the change you're, you're seeing today? We are being, I think, expected instead of, I would say, fighting for all of those extra tasks. We're now expected to be in the courtroom, to come in and run the trial tech, to be there to see what's happening in the courtroom instead of we're back in the office. Even firms that typically have used trial techs in the past for individual trials, they're now looking to their paralegals to take that role and take that place because, well, I mean, it's more cost effective. It's someone that's familiar with your case. It's someone that you know, that you trust. And it's just, it's all around a better fit. And I think that attorneys are starting to realize that we can do those things. And in a lot of cases, we can do them better than a first year associate, better than a vendor that is just jumping in at the last minute. You know, they're, they're seeing the value of, of what we can do because we've, we've been doing it and they've been getting more and more comfortable I think, over the years because it's, it's definitely. I feel like it's exploded in terms of how well people are aware of what we're doing and used to. You would see a lot of firms, they might not have a paralegal or they might have one now. It's expected. Yeah. Michelle, first of all, I mean, let's not sell you short. I think that the things that you do or a capable paralegal can do is almost always tremendously more valuable than a first year associate. I mean, you know, the skill sets that you have, the experience, the intimacy, the meticulousness, the process awareness, the relationships, the. I mean, it's, it's, I think it's, it's, it's very undervalued. I don't know what your specific roles and responsibilities are at the firm, but are you tasked with evaluating new legal tech at all? Do you get pitches all the time from different legal tech vendors? We do. We do. We have a department, actually, depending on what the tool does. We have a couple of different people that we can go to. But a lot of times it'll come to us first because the vendors know us. They work with us on another project, or they'll see us at an event, or for me, they'll see us through the paralegal association. And so they'll reach out to the paralegal directly. And sometimes we have a little bit of leeway to make those decisions. Or at the very least, I'll get quotes from someone that's reached out to me. When I get asked a question that I'm, oh, hey, I heard from this guy. Let's, let's see if we can get a quote and see if they can do what we need. But we're kind of like in an intermediary, I think a lot of times at the bigger firms especially. And so we kind of put that to the next step. I'll get something in and I'll say, hey, you know, we might want to look at this. You know, let me know if you want to talk to this, this guy. Well, I, so, so my follow up there is what advice would you give for people who are trying to sell to paralegals? What are the things that irritate you and what are the things that you think people like? Where can people quickly show value to you? I think understanding that we aren't the decision makers, almost always we're not the ones scheduling depositions for court reporters. And I get a lot of people asking us, you know, hey, do us for court reporting. And they'll ask over and over again. I'm like, I don't make the decisions. I can give your information to the secretaries and the attorneys, but they're the ones that make those decisions. And I can give my 2 cents. And the other thing is, know your audience. I get a lot of emails from vendors that have obviously not looked at what I do and what kind of law I practice. And I'm like, okay, this is nothing that I am ever going to deal with in my day to day practice. Why? Why are you sending me 10 emails in a week? So, you know, know your audience. Do a little bit of legwork if you're going to contact someone directly. Yeah, I think that's one of like the number one rules in sales. But it's not easily followed quite at all. Michelle, for any new paralegals or maybe anyone considering the profession, what advice would you give to them while they're considering this? Is there any, like, gems or anything you wish you knew early on that they should know? I wish that I had known a little bit earlier what we are capable of doing. And I think the certifications that are out there to help you along the way and to help you get in those, you know, those bigger rooms. It was quite some time before I think I even heard about NALA and the certified paralegal exam. And, you know, I think, you know, NIFPA has another one that's a national certification. And I think we're getting better about that just because we have LinkedIn and there's so much more out there on social media and we're all so much more connected. But just do your research, look at those things. Even just going on LinkedIn and seeing who's connected to who, like go to the paralegal association or whichever association you're connected with and see who they're following, see who's interacting with them. Because there's so much out there. And I think once people have an interest in doing this and then they see what the possibilities are, I think that just draws you in because there's so much, I mean, as a lawyer, anybody that works in the practice, there's so many areas of law. There's so many different, you know, things you can do. There's so many different sizes of law firms. There's just, there's so much. Michelle, you're the president of the San Diego Paralegal Association. What conversations are paralegals having now that maybe aren't reaching a broader audience? Like, what are the. What are the big concerns in the paralegal space? Or where are people sort of spending a lot of time and energy sort of with each other, talking about similar things? I think a lot of it is balancing our educational opportunities. Anytime you get anything like AI coming through, it's the big thing, and everybody is concentrating on it. But we also want to make sure that we're offering and other people are offering other educational opportunities that we still need for just the basic areas of practice for people that are just starting out for, you know, paralegals that may not necessarily have the background underneath them to understand some of those larger issues? You know, I. I still go to a lot of the webinars on the AI and things like that, but that seems to be saturating right now. So it's. It's kind of like, okay, that's going to be white noise shortly. So what. What can we look to, you know, next month to kind of stand out a little bit? And, you know, also, especially with AI coming out, it's an access to justice and the licensing issues that some of the other states are dealing with. And I don't think California has revisited it like they. I think they were supposed to early this year or even 2025. And I don't think that they've gone back to revisit that for California yet. But, you know, other states are doing it, and that's. That's definitely a big discussion point for the national associations, especially, that are talking about who's doing it, who's not, how it's working, you know, what the problems are, how we can make it happen everywhere so that we have those options and that people have those options. You mentioned this education piece. Do you think there needs to be more events? I'm assuming that paralegals need to do continuing education credits as well, correct? Yep. Do you think there needs to be a stronger push from legal tech companies or other organizations to have these continuing education events that paralegals can attend that are actually insightful? I definitely. I definitely think that more education geared toward the paralegals can only be good. I mean, we can go to the bar events, we can go to almost any educational event in the legal realm and attend those to get our cle. It's the same. It's the same CLE credit, but so much of it, and especially in house at law firms, it's geared towards the attorney. So you're not actually touching on what the person behind the scenes is going to do with that information. We're not going to be in the courtroom talking to the judge. So that doesn't apply to us. We're not going to be, you know, the one negotiating with opposing counsel. So we have a little bit of a different expectation when we're looking for educational material that appeals to us. So maybe to put you on the spot, what would you like to like if, if, if you could design a couple of courses, what would they be about? What would you like to sort of be doing a deep dive into that may not necessarily be AI specific? Well, as a litigation paralegal, I, I'm always looking for how to, how to prep your case, how to start from the beginning or even, you know, the middle when you first lay your eyes on a case. What do I do? Because especially if you haven't been doing it forever, that's what most people want to know, okay, where do I start? Or how do I get to the point where I'm not rushing the last three months before trial to try to get everything done and figure out if we've missed anything? So I think even just like the steps in that process, you know, when you first get a case, here's how to set it up for success later. Here's how to set up your discovery, even if you're not the one drafting the discovery. You can track what's happening, you can see what's going out, you can see when it's coming in. You can see the meet and confer. You can see the decisions that are being made along the way, and you can see whether we're getting the information that we asked for. And, you know, that kind of helps you later on to know, oh, hey, we're going to need this. And we never followed up. We never got it back. They never agreed to, to do it. And it fell, you know, it could have fallen into cracks or, you know, we have these documents. We're never going to be able to get these in unless we get this guy to a depot or get a stipulation, because no one signed a declaration. That used to be a big one when I did personal injury and malpractice with medical records, everybody gets the records. And they're like, oh, yeah, we got the records. Let's look through them, let's do everything. And then you're ready for a trial and you're like, who's going to authenticate this? That's a valid point. And in mapping all of that out, I can definitely see the value in IT and just providing more guidance like this is how it should be structured. That way, nothing falls through the cracks. We're able, you're able to just provide a thorough process for any paralegal to follow. That makes complete sense. Now, Michelle, I would love to know, where do you see the paralegal profession going in the next five to 10 years? Are you seeing it stay the same or are you going to. Or do you maybe see a whole nother hybrid with, with these, these new emerging technologies? I definitely think that we are going to be expected to be more tech savvy than ever. There are still going to be those attorneys that aren't comfortable with it or that just don't want to learn it or just don't have the time. Our role is going to, I think, become. Well, not become, but I think we're going to add the skill of interacting with those AI tools, interacting with the databases in a different way because they're incorporating those AI tools. So document review is going to change, I think the technology, whether you want to do it or not, whether you enjoy it or not, I don't think it's anything that we're going to be able to get away from. And I think that that is going to be one of the biggest, one of the biggest things we're going to kind of have to be. Even if we're not technically looked at as a hybrid role, we're going to, in practice, be sort of a hybrid legal ops lit support paralegal. Is that scary to you? Is that exciting to you? I like it. I mean, I've always wanted to be involved in the technology and I've always pushed to have access to more and to do all of the things. So for me, I enjoy it. I think it's exciting and I think it's just opening up more doors for us. Michelle, what has been a challenge of yours for the past maybe year or so, like what has something that you, you thought about and you're like, ooh, this is something I either got to wrap my head around, I got to learn, get better at it. Is there anything that comes to mind? Honestly, it's. It's the actual nuts and bolts of the ediscovery tools, because for a very long time it was just jump in, review these taglies. But there's also, how is it coming in? How are we getting it from the client? How is it getting into the database? How is it structured when it gets there? Because all those little things you slowly start to find out, affect how you're able to search it, what it looks like when it gets there, you know, whether somebody's going to object to it later, whether somebody messed with it before it got there, you know how we're going to produce it. All of I've been slowly getting better at that. And, you know, that was one of the things that I really enjoyed about this new position when I took it was I got the opportunity to. To do that. So, so it. I think that for me, is it just figuring out the back. The background for all the. All the tools that are out there. We spent a lot of time talking about the changes and what lies ahead and fear and new technology. What is something that you see is in your profession as a paralegal is sort of untouchable by the technology. Where are paralegals adding value that no tool is going to ever sort of replace? I think it's the case management. I think that's the key because I find when I see a case that hasn't had a paralegal on it, it's not structured. There's no management, there's no tracking of all of those things that we've been talking about. I think the ability to know where you're going and what you're going to need to get there, it's invaluable. And a lot of attorneys, they know that, but that's not their focus because they're focused on the strategy, they're focused on negotiating with counsel for this and that. They're focused on the motions, they're focused on the legal work, but they don't have the time necessarily to focus on all of those other things that need to happen. So I think that's never going to change because those things are never going to. It's never going to change the way you go to court. Is there an element to this that incorporates skills that may be a little different, maybe like soft skills or the way you speak to someone to communicate it more effectively? Are there any those type of skills that you know are absolutely necessary in the world that a paralegal lives in? Oh, absolutely. I mean, you have to be able to read the room. You need to know who you're talking to. You need to know what their role is. You need to know what your expected role is. I could be working on four different cases and have four different sets of expectations, even if it's the same attorney, you know, it's not a case by case basis, it's not a person by person basis. And it has nothing to do with me personally. And I think knowing who you're working with, what your expectations are, I think that that emotional intelligence and being able to communicate is. I mean, there is no substitute for that. Yeah, I, I completely agree. It's so necessary. And, and do you think with the world of AI, this is maybe getting worse, or would you say it's getting better? I think with tech, it. It has gotten worse. Maybe with the AI and the way you, that you need to talk to AI, it will start to improve because you have to. You have to be aware of how you're asking questions and how you're. You're putting that information out there. But I think with, like, the texts and the emails and the chatting on Zoom and teams, I see some very interesting communications come through, even from, you know, attorneys. So it's definitely a skill that still needs to be. It still needs to be worked on. Okay, Michelle, we always ask this question at the end of our podcast, and I'm interested to hear your answer. What is your hottest take on the industry right now? You know, I'm going to paraphrase and steal from someone that I heard speak at one of our events recently, and it just stuck with me. And it, I think about it all the time. And he said, when you're looking at something new and scary or fun, if you can't avoid it, you need to learn it. And that has just stuck with me. And then that's how I feel about all of the new changes in the, you know, the AI, what we're going to be doing with AI, what we're going to be doing with databases, you know, what we're going to change, what's not going to change, we're not going to avoid it. It's coming whether we like it or enjoy it or not, so you have to learn it. And I just, for some reason, that sentence has just stuck with me for weeks and weeks since I heard it. And it. It's so true. Yeah, definitely a great deal of truth, that. And I feel like it's the way that the industry in a lot of ways is responding to the forces at play now, the new tech, all the things that are changing. And I think it's a great hot take. So thank you for that, Michelle. That is officially a wrap on today's episode of between the Briefs. So, again, a big thank you to Michelle Pendleton for sharing all of your insights into everything we discussed here today. Adrian, do you have any final thoughts? No. Thank you so much for joining us, Michelle. It was a pleasure having you here and learning more about the role of a paralegal and how much what it takes to be successful. So thank you for joining us. On that note, be sure to subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. Thanks for listening, stay curious, stay inspired, and we'll see you next time. Up next on between the Briefs there are far too many people doing document review. I don't think we would replace the associates so much as we would be replacing people doing document review at the first level in some way, shape or form. So in a sense we are replacing our own reviewers to some extent or those in the industry offering human driven first level review. And I don't mean to exaggerate, there's actually Genai review itself requires a fair amount of human legal input which we also provide. So in a sense the activity is being replaced, but it's certainly not the case that all the people are being replaced. But that being said, I don't disagree with the overall thrust of the question, which is there are far too many people doing document review in the industry today than need to do so based on where the current technology Stay tuned for the full interview coming to you soon. Between the Briefs is brought to you by Steno. To find out more about Steno and how we combine exceptional court reporting and litigation support services to deliver a superior litigation experience, visit steno.com that's S-T-E-N-O.com and then make sure to search Search for Between the Briefs in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere else you get your podcasts and click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. On behalf of the team here at Steno, thanks for listening.