Why A Bigger Fleet Isn’t Always Better in Trucking | Jamie Hagen

Speaker A: Trucking is a service job. What you're paying for is the driver. The truck is just the tool. And I think some people get that kind of in their head backwards. They look at the trucks. What you're really buying is the person and their time.

Speaker B: Hello, and welcome to behind the Freight. Before we get into our conversation with Jamie Hagan, we have a special guest with us today. It's Avery Vyse. Avery is the chief trucking analyst for FTR Transportation Intelligence, where he tracks freight markets and rate trends across the industry. Avery is going to be joining us to break down the freight market on a monthly basis, give us the trends for what's been going on and how you can better position your truck for the month ahead. Avery, thanks for joining me and John,

Speaker C: thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker D: So what a crazy, crazy summer last, really, I'd say few months that we've had has been, in my opinion, chaotic for some, chaotic for most. What do you see the freight market doing and are you surprised or just tell us about how it's played out in August so far?

Speaker C: Sure. So one thing that's been interesting is that the spot market has followed more or less the seasonal pattern, in fact, maybe a little weaker, arguably, especially in dry van. And the reason that's interesting is that, you know, because you would say, well, why is the fact that it does what it always does interesting is it's done that in a period of time where diesel prices have risen quite sharply. So, so, you know, over the past seven weeks, prices have risen $1.07. That was after it took nine weeks for it to drop a dollar six. And that has had no effect, you know, or at least no discernible effect on spot rates in any of the equipment types. Now, you could look at that two ways, right? One concerning way is, ah, uh, the market has peaked, it's cooling rapidly. And this is happening the same time diesel prices are surging. Um, and that's a bad recipe. I'm sure those have been around for at least four years, four and a half years. Remember, you know, March of 2022 when we had that happen. You know, spot rates were coming down very sharply after, you know, all time high at the end of 21. And then Russia's invasion of Ukraine sent Diesel prices up $1.15 in two weeks. And a lot of companies went out of business. A lot of those drivers went to work for larger carriers. And actually that in a lot of ways set the stage for the sluggishness. And that's being euphemistic. I Guess that we've seen over the last four years in uh, the trucking industry that sort of rapid growth in the carrier capacity. Right when the market was cooling. That would be the glass more than half empty way of looking at ah, where things are. The glass half, ah, full way is to, to say that, you know, spot rates are running 40 to 45% higher than they were a year ago. And that's more or less whether you exclude the need for fuel cost recovery or not. You know, if we calculate a fuel surcharge, even though obviously a lot of carriers do not get one in the spot market, but we calculate one really just to kind of isolate the portion of rates that are required to recover fuel costs. And like I said, spot rates are running roughly 40% higher whether you look at dry band refrigerated flatbed or specialized. Specialized is a little weaker, but not significantly so. So the class half full is. They don't need to worry about it. Right. They're doing quite well as it is. And that 40% is more or less stable even as rates have softened a bit. So for carrier's sake, that's what they would hope would happen is that we continue to see some spot rates remaining pretty solid and following seasonal patterns which would. We haven't talked about what's coming up, but we are getting close to what would be the bottom of the summer softness.

Speaker B: So you don't see this as another lead in of March 2022 where we have to worry about a longer trend. Do you think it's more seasonal combined with some of the higher rates we're seeing, right?

Speaker C: I don't think so. And the reason I don't think so is that there isn't any reason to think that there's this surge in capacity. If you look at payroll employment, for example, it continues to be quite weak. It's bottomed out, maybe in truckload, but not by much. The pressure on foreign drivers is not dissipating. If anything, it is getting tougher. So I, uh, think what has probably happened is a lot of the things that have gone on, especially with the foreign driver enforcement over the last year, I think have kind of worked their way out in a way similar to what happened in 2018. And, and that is you had the electronic logging device mandate and that was very disruptive, as everyone who's been around for nine years will, eight years will remember. But after a while you kind of figured out how to work around it. And I think it's similar because I think the number of drivers affected by English language and non domiciled is not enormous. But what it has done is disrupt the normal pattern. Right. It's disrupted a lot of lanes. But brokers are very savvy, they're very adaptive. And I think over the last six, seven months where this has really done a big impact, I think they've learned to kind of work with it. Now that doesn't mean that the market is going to collapse, but what it does mean is that maybe that upward pressure is starting to stabilize. In fact, FDR's own forecast has been pretty stable, in fact, quite stable over the last three months. Before that, we kept raising our rate forecast by a few percentage points every month. Now it's very. Our forecast for spa rates, excluding fuel is in the neighborhood of 35% higher year over year. Our contract forecast is about 10% higher year over year. And that, uh, 10% is about the same next year as well. I don't think we're looking at a repeat of 2022. Now if diesel prices were to continue rising and you know, just keep going up and up and up and you know, exceed the 581 record in June of 2022 and keep going beyond that. Yeah, at some point, unless we get some rate increases, that's going to become problematic. But that's a ways down the road and it's very speculative. Crude prices seem to be easing. On the other hand, diesel prices, there are some concerns there. One is that supply is not good and that could have some implications as we go through the year.

Speaker B: Well, with that in August too, I mean, what should people be looking out for going into September? You know, talking about the future here, what do we think the next month holds and does anyone need to prepare in certain ways for back to school and any seasonal trends there?

Speaker C: Yeah, in general, I think we're past, for the most part, the back to school. I think only in certain parts of the country are we still probably in that mode. We do tend to get a bump up for Labor Day, whether that's sort of packaged with back to school or what have you. But generally speaking, the market inflects right about now. It might be a week later than usual. Only because Labor Day is a week later than usual. You know, typical. It's the latest it ever is. September 7th is the latest it can be. Uh, so maybe there'll be a little bit of a delay. Now here's where I would watch. If there's no bump at all from Labor Day, I would start to worry. If there's no firming now We've already started to see a little bit with refrigerated, but it's very shallow. I mean, refrigerated rates were up a little over a penny week over week. It's better than going down from the carrier perspective, but, you know, isn't much. So if there's no bump to any degree. And Flatbed for example. Flatbed has fallen sequentially for 10 straight weeks. You think, well, that's bad. Well, no, that's fairly normal actually to go from the mid year peak all the way through August. But they do tend to firm up early September. So what I would watch if I'm in the market as a carrier is, is to make sure that we at least follow seasonal patterns because I think everything's okay if we only follow seasonal patterns because the market has reset. The market is much stronger than it was a year ago, two years ago, three years ago. So as long as those seasonal patterns hold, they're fine. If the market continues to soften into September into October, then it's time to worry.

Speaker B: Well, you heard him, John. We got to keep an eye out for that little bump.

Speaker D: Yep.

Speaker C: And it's not a huge bump, so people shouldn't worry. You know, it's not like the end of June, but it is noticeable in all three of the major. I kind of look at Specialized because it's so diverse and everything. I tend to not focus as much on it because what is Specialized, it's a hodgepodge. Right. But you know, the other three are much more easy to understand the dynamics. And so for those three, I would definitely expect some sort of improvement in both volume and rates during that period. But really until you get to Thanksgiving, not a lot of change after that. You know, when I come back in a month, I'm hoping that I'll be able to say, yeah, it's pretty much the same as last month. So. Good. We'll see.

Speaker D: Well, Avery, we really appreciate your wizardry, as I call it, and your knowledge and then everything you bring to us in the industry. So again, thanks for being on for this, uh, short little piece here. And yeah, we look forward to obviously September, getting into September and uh, talking to you next time.

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, looking forward to it. So long.

Speaker D: Welcome to behind the Freight. On today's episode we're joined by Mr. Jamie Hagan. He is an owner and president of Hellbent Express, a family owned trucking company based in South Dakota. He's grown from a single owner operator truck into a well respected 12 truck fleet known for its commitment to service Safety and professionalism. Now, Jamie has spent virtually his entire life around trucks. He started as a teenager driving and experienced the highs and lows of being an owner operator. And then now he's grown Hellbent Express into a successful small fleet. Along the way, he's also become well known trucking advocate and a brand ambassador for Mack trucks. So today we'll talk about growing a trucking company the right way, balancing driver's needs with business realities and what he's learned from his decades and decades behind the wheel and why bigger isn't always better in trucking. So, Jamie, welcome.

Speaker A: Yeah, the way you make it sound, I sound old decades in this industry. And also I'm surprised nobody has adopted Freight World. You know, do like a Wayne's World kickoff and like Freight World. Party on. Just waiting for someone to do that.

Speaker D: Hey, I think you're onto something, Scott. Let's kind of introduce that. I love it. I'm curious, Jamie. So Hellbent Express, I love your name, by the way. How did you come up with Hellbent Express? Where did that all come from? I love learning these sorts of things about the naming conventions.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think it was just pure luck or the gift from God, if you will. My CB handle was hell bent. Hagen, uh, an old driver gave me that because he said I was always trying to do everything. You know, I never said no, always did everything. Just kind of said, you're always hell bent on getting everything done. So when it came time to start an llc, I thought I would just get paperwork in the mail. And I didn't know the process. You know what I mean? So I called the state of South Dakota and they're like, oh, yeah, let's just do it over the phone right now. What's the name of your company? So I had to come up with a name, like, literally in 10 seconds. So it just came straight off the top of my head. I, uh, drove for Smithway Motor Express way back in the day. So that was just Express was at the top of my head. It just came out and it worked out. I mean, we get compliments all the time.

Speaker D: Heck yeah. Before we kick this show off, we both were complimenting you and your name. It's really cool. I love that.

Speaker B: Hey, sometimes you gotta pan for gold for a while, and sometimes you strike it right away, right?

Speaker A: Yeah. I stepped right in the river and picked out a nugget just like perfect.

Speaker D: I read something about you where you obviously spent almost your entire life in a truck from when you were in diapers. Sitting there with your dad as a little boy. I mean, what's one memory that you have with your dad driving? Or even. What's that first memory you have being in a cab, sitting there with Pops? What's that memory?

Speaker A: I'll never forget it. That's the crazy part. I'm 52, and I still remember riding with him when I was 4 and 5 years old, because it was exhilarating to leave South Dakota behind. We were in an old Cabo or Transtar, no air conditioning. And I remember going south and it being incredibly hot, you know, because both windows are open, and I'm just sweating. We sitting in that cab over the top of the engine. So you're listening to the engine just m the whole way, just making noise. And we took a load of grain down to Oklahoma, and it was one of those. It was a flatbed with the side kit. So you had to take the side kit off. You had to dump the thing. You know, they raised it vertically in the air. So I remember all that stuff, helping him, you know, get out of the truck, having them tip it, and then taking the Sidekick completely down and then hauled, uh, ditch rich equipment from Oklahoma up to North Dakota. So that was my first memories, just helping them with all of that. For all intents and purposes, just a few years earlier, I was in diapers.

Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.

Speaker A: So I'm working in this industry my entire life.

Speaker D: That is awesome.

Speaker B: I love how you remember the round trip, too. You remember going out. Annoying what you guys had coming home. That's awesome.

Speaker A: Yeah. But that's the only one I remember. He did several of them. I went with him several times, but that first one was, like, just completely ingrained, you know, just a little farm kid. And then getting to go down to Oklahoma and seeing those massive grain elevators. You know, you see pictures of them now, and they seem kind of like, well, no big deal. But back in 1980, they look pretty huge.

Speaker B: And when you're a little smaller, too, things seem gigantic.

Speaker A: Yeah. When you're only three feet off the ground, it does look pretty big.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: So, uh, obviously you've seen this industry from so many different angles. Driving, being an owner operator, then a fleet owner, and now even becoming an industry influencer, which is really cool. Was there a specific moment that was, like, the biggest learning lesson from you within your entire life in this industry? I mean, what is that moment where you're like, whoa, this is a huge step. I just learned a lot.

Speaker A: Fleet ownership was the biggest leap for me. When you only have yourself to control. It's easy. I shouldn't say easy. We all have troubles controlling ourselves, right? Am, um, I right? But when it comes to helping others and riding a line between the business and people, that's the hardest part, I think, of being a leader in fleet ownership. Because what's best for the business isn't always what's best for the people and vice versa. So you have to find that constant balance. Thank God my wife is there to help me. She's, you know, every once in a while reminding me that I can't do that. You know, you can't just force somebody to do this or that. You know what I mean? Like, you got to take their interests at heart as well. So that's been the hardest part because I'm gung ho, you know what I mean? Like, I'll just do it, you know, whatever it takes to get the job done. But it's my business. So it's not the same way when it's someone else's business and they only want their collective check. Right. Like just all of us, you're just trying to make a living. Right. So that's been the hardest part for me.

Speaker B: Yeah, we all need that better half. It's nice to have somebody really in a little bit when you go too far, one side or the other.

Speaker A: Yeah. If it wasn't for her, I don't know if we would have made it this far, really. I probably would have pissed everybody off.

Speaker D: Kudos to Ms. Hagan. We appreciate you.

Speaker A: Yes. Big shout out to Hillary.

Speaker B: So we were obviously looking into you and reading about you. I saw your piece that it was heavy duty trucking, about being an owner, operator, having a few good years coming out there and then upgrading your truck, getting a nice rig and things kind of switching, the market changing or just the business itself and having those operating costs. What did that experience with kind of your first pushback and barrier, what did it teach you and how did it make things better? With your lessons from then on out?

Speaker A: Lessons in business, it's not fun. It's fun when you're making money and then when things turn and you have to adapt and change. Like, it's funny, we've been doing this now six years as Hellbent Express, and how we started and where we're, uh, at today is completely different. Know the people we've met, people we've employed, like, we've only got one guy that's been here the whole time. But even just the people you work with, the brokers, the loads you do, it's constantly fluctuating because what you're doing today doesn't mean it's what you're doing tomorrow. Which is crazy because how do you plan for that? Right? So you buy an equipment, you're relying on this situation and then that evaporates and now there you sit. Had planned for it. And that has been another great lesson in trucking is that you can't. What is the old wives tale is don't put all your eggs in one basket, you know what I mean? Don't assume that basket's going to be there and put all your eggs in it. So lesson learned. Now we try to diversify a little bit. We try not to get too specialized simply because what we're trying to do with our situation. I think if a guy were out to be a specialty hauler, obviously you'd have to specialize. But we're just driving, um, trying to have good times out here on the road.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean we like to talk about it too because we're in an era where I feel like a lot of carriers are thinking about an upgrade or thinking about where rates are at and wanting to get to that point. And so it's just a cautionary tale. Right. You got to know your business and know, uh, tomorrow's not going to be like today.

Speaker A: What you buy today still has a payment on it three or four years from now, you know what I mean? At that level. And if the market can endure it, you can find yourself in a sticky situation. Not that we were in a horrible situation, but these newer trucks, I saw the market shifting with the new EPA 27 rule coming in and prices going up even higher. And so we bought heavy this year, praying that the next couple of years, at the very least, the market will be great. But I knew, you know, if we were to leap into 27, truck prices were going to go even higher. They were going to be more complicated and they're already complicated as it is. So it was one of those things. Now we're taking an even greater risk and gamble. But you gotta do it. That's the thing about trucking. You just gotta do it and send it and hope the good Lord it all works out.

Speaker D: Yep. Love it. I read you had mentioned something about how it's okay to say no to a customer if it's going to be beneficial to your business and your drivers that you have. How did you come to realize that protecting your people is ultimately better than taking on business that may or may not be healthy?

Speaker A: Well, there again my wife comes into play on that one because she was the one that come with that. She's like, you don't have to say yes to everything. Because I am kind of a yes man. I like to say yes. I like the adventure and the experience. Whether it's good or bad, you're going to learn something from it. So I am more than willing to do something stupid if it will. When you look back at it, you look back and you're like, ah, uh, maybe that wasn't such a bright idea. But I just went into it wide open and my wife's like, you know, maybe we should say no to a few of these demands because it's getting kind of crazy and the guys aren't happy. And like I said, that was part of it. Learning that whole situation what I would consider acceptable in what other people consider accept, you know what I'm saying? Like, for me, I am willing to endure a lot of pain and agony just because I like it in the sense, like the adventure of trucking and seeing where this goes or how this works out. Whereas when you're an employee, you're like, hey, I'm just here, Let me do my job. I want to get from A to B. Why are you making it so difficult? Why are you booking these loads that are, you know, delivering on the top of a mountain? I'm like, don't you want to go to the top of a mountain? That sounds like fun.

Speaker D: You just assume everybody's adventurous like you. Right. You can't make those assumptions.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So I've had to wane my enthusiasm a little bit.

Speaker D: Yeah, cool. What have you found to be really the biggest key to retaining? I mean, you seem to be doing a great job at managing a smaller fleet. Like, what is the key to getting good drivers or great drivers and making them or having them want to stay with you?

Speaker A: There's many factors. Being a driver myself, I kind of approach it from that point of view. First and foremost, we got good equipment. You know, we roll with some really good equipment. Trucking is a service job. What you're paying for is the driver. The truck is just the tool. And I think some people get that kind of in their head backwards. They look at the trucks. What you're really buying is the person and their time. So I try to make sure guys have got good equipment so they can utilize their time best. And then we try to treat them like human beings. I tell guys all this all the time when they apply. I'm like, I can't compete with a huge mega Carrier for health insurance. I can't compete with them on, you know, 401k plans and matching IRAs, and I can't do any of that compared to them. But what I can do is call you by your first name, know when your birthday is, treat you like a human being. If you're not feeling the best, I'm not going to say, hey, well, you know, the load's booked and, you know, good luck. We're going to make sure you're safe and you're treated like a human being. Because that's. Ultimately, I'm out there on the road, too. This is how I want to be treated. And it's one of the reasons why I started it. I wanted to see why Fleets made the decisions they made, because from my point of view as a driver, I didn't understand none of it. I'm like, why do they do this? And then you get in this position and you start to see there's a balance between business and people. And bigger businesses can get really focused on that business part of it. And not so much the people, they lose track that they're in a service industry, and it's the people that provide the service. You want a happy employee showing up, smiling at shippers and receivers instead of being like, this damn place. The last thing I want is angry employees. It's the last thing. So I think that's been our success. We've got a great group of guys. I, uh, pat them on the back all the time because they deserve. Technically, trucking is an easy job. I'll be the first to admit, it's not that complicated. The hard part is the discipline to stay doing it day after day out there by yourself, no one else to rely on but yourself. And that can be the hardest part. Being trapped out there on the road, going through your emotion, in your fears, and you're all by yourself and something breaks down. You know what I mean? Like, you're all by yourself. So that's. That's the thing too, you know, and these guys deserve that. There is no hell, Ben Express without the people. Because I'm just Jamie. And that's why I didn't name it Jamie Hagan Express. Because I didn't want it to be about me. I wanted it to be about the group, the team that you can build, and that's bigger than any success financially. This is not the most rewarding thing I've ever done in m my life. I'm not gonna lie. Being a fleet owner, I thought you would just cash checks, but as it turns out, you cash them sure enough, but they go out the other side just as fast as they come in. Right. So the most rewarding part has been the people. The guys I work with, they've been fantastic. Fed a few clunkers, but that's life, right? You got to have a few bad employees for a couple of good ones to be loved and adored. Right.

Speaker B: I'm not going to tell you you're wrong, Jamie, but I got to say, from this side of the table, I don't think anybody's going to be telling you it's an easy job. Maybe for you.

Speaker A: Well, yeah, I've done it for so long, maybe.

Speaker C: I don't know.

Speaker A: Like to me, I feel like we could train a monkey to drive a truck. It's just the monkey would not work for bananas. That's the thing. I've always said worry.

Speaker B: The animal question comes up later. So be ready for that. We'll reference that again.

Speaker D: I already know what his answer is going to be.

Speaker B: I do have to say, Jamie, like we had Charles Gracie on here a couple weeks ago and he was saying exactly the same thing as you. Where the 401k and the health insurance and stuff, this is obviously important, but more and more carriers, it sounds like what we're hearing is they care about that personal touch that, uh, being able to know who you're working for, have them know you and actually have that relationship rather than signing bonus this and extra perks here and there. So we're hearing it more and more and it's nice to see that consistency from the smaller side. So that's awesome. I got one for you. I was seeing how you recently switched out for Hellbent Express from doing more of the food grade tankers into doing more dry van specific work. Why did you make that shift? And then also what kind of opportunities did that open up for you or what opportunities led to you making that choice?

Speaker A: What the biggest thing that led to it was the economy kind of cooled and the company that we released to Cliff Veesman incorporated out of Gary's Health, quote, good group of people, their market share just kind of slowed down a little bit. And you know, I had trucks leased on with them and those guys were tired of sitting there, just wasn't enough work. And they were trying to spread it around the best they could. But I was picking up demand on the Hellbent Express side. So I was essentially borrowing guys from one side to the other, making them go from tank one day, the van the next day, and eventually the guys are like, we would just rather do van because you're way busier over here then this is. Prior to 25, this would have been a 24. When 25 came around, it definitely was a lot slower, but it was slow there too. So it just worked out the way it worked out, and it's really starting to catch on. I gotta be honest with you, with the ELP enforcement and everything, I could probably double my size easy enough if I could convince someone to loan me the money to buy more trucks.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: How do you feel about being a, uh, smaller 12 truck operation versus being 30 or 40? Do you think that being that smaller operation gives you an advantage? Or if you could, would you look for more expansion here in 2026?

Speaker A: I don't think I want to grow m many more than what we are right now. This is kind of the perfect size for me, being able to still do the job. So we get bigger. I feel like you start to lose touch, but you have to, because now you have a, uh, much bigger picture. And you move from being a, uh, lieutenant to a general, and now you're disconnected from your team on that level. Your team has to be leadership people underneath you. And I still want to drive a truck, if I'm being completely honest. You know what I mean? I've never wanted to get out of the truck. I enjoy this industry. I enjoy driving. I was driving earlier this morning, did some work on a trailer, and then ran here to the podcast real quick. That's just who I am. And I don't want to change that. I don't want to be that guy that has got a bunch of people underneath them, and you're just completely disconnected from the situation. Right. I'm sure, um, JB Hunt, he doesn't even know if he's alive, but I'm sure he has no idea who works for him. No idea.

Speaker B: I mean, that the more applets on your uniform, right? You can get that thousand foot view, but it doesn't hit the same as the hundred foot one either. It's nice to be a little closer to the people. I like that.

Speaker D: All right, are we ready for the lightning round? And by the way, lightning round, Jamie, you've already answered or somewhat answered one of the questions.

Speaker A: Can lucky is drag? I don't know.

Speaker D: I really don't know. So these are designed to say whatever comes to mind quickly and just give an answer less than 30 seconds. We'll fly through just two or three questions and then we'll end the show.

Speaker A: Feel free to beep out any cuss words I say.

Speaker D: Oh, uh, no, those are staying and we're going to bold them. Sir. No, but real quick. So here's my favorite question. If animals could drive trucks, which animal do you think would be the best driver and why?

Speaker A: I thought you were joking about that question.

Speaker D: No, that's my lightning question.

Speaker A: I mean, obviously I think monkeys. I mean, they taught them how to fly planes. You know what I mean? Like, there was a movie not that long ago about them flying planes. I mean, come on. Like, it's a no brainer. Just put them in a truck, show them how to do it. Just got to get a truckload of bananas.

Speaker B: If you could send them to space. Yeah. They should be able to drive a truck. Right? That makes sense.

Speaker D: That driver cost comes way down. Yeah, you're paying with bananas and not real money. Yeah. You're on to something. I like it.

Speaker B: All right, what is if you're picking one either book, podcast, or newsletter that you'd recommend to other people in logistics, what would your pick be? Jamie? Not this one. That's cheating. You got to pick a different one.

Speaker A: Do we exclude the behind the freighters that, like, is this like you guys tuning up like an easy softball for me? Is that what's happening?

Speaker B: It's got to be a different one. This is obviously number one.

Speaker A: I love Nooner with Dooner. The dude is super entertaining and he's still touching on freight. So it's like a great combination of like not dry, you know, stuff. You know, he's kind of quick and easy. I love podcasts. I mean, I grew up in the industry before this podcasting came along. So you listen to just generic ass talk radio, which was dry, you know, if they weren't talking about something or people just calling in, randomly talking about space aliens or something. I mean, it was rough. Now you can focus on things, you know, like, I want to learn about this or that. And there's a lot of them. I mean, there's just a bunch with all kinds of interests from all points of view. I think it's fantastic. I could probably list a hundred of them, but really just put in your Google search for, you know, great podcasts.

Speaker D: So who is somebody then in the trucking industry doing great work that you feel like more people should follow?

Speaker A: There's a bunch of great people out there, you know, on social media right now that got some good entertaining stuff. But, you know, that was the one thing that changed for me from being a fleet owner is I don't have a lot of free time. I spend a lot of my time doing bookwork and people work versus sitting in the cab and enjoying, even when I'm driving, I'm on the phone versus listening to the radio and those things. So I'm not the best person to ask that question. I kind of come across people long after they've been out there. So that's a non answer and that's what you're getting from answering.

Speaker D: It's a raw, honest answer. Just like really this entire show has been about Jamie. I really appreciate you being open, honest, having that real life personal touch that you have with your drivers. You said a lot of very beautiful things. I really appreciate you and what you do for this industry. So with that said, uh, that concludes the show for today. So thank you everybody for listening or watching. Behind the Freight. This is John and Scott and we are out. Thank you, Freight World.

Speaker C: Excellent party on.

Speaker D: Uh, if today's episode helped you think differently about your operation, share it with someone in your network who needs to hear it. And if you're looking for tools to help keep your truck rolling from finding quality loads getting paid quicker, well, truckstop.com is here to help. Go visit truckstop.com to explore the load board rate insights and risk management solutions

Speaker B: built specifically for carriers and, um, brokers.

Speaker D: Thanks for listening to us at behind the Freight.

Speaker B: Until next time, keep the wheels turning

Speaker D: and the bad loads burning.