Episode 33 My Dyslexic Leadership Story with Major Symon Smith

Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome to this, the latest episode of the Be Brilliant People podcast. And today I'm absolutely delighted to be joined by Simon Smith. Hello, Simon. Mike.

Speaker B: How you doing?

Speaker A: I'm, um, very good. I'm really looking forward to getting into the conversation with you today. We've got lots to talk about, and before we kind of get into that, let me just give a bit of a brief introduction to you, if that's okay. Simon is a. Is a former leader in the British army, um, and we met through a shared connection. We met through the Ministry of Defence Dyslexia network, where I was very privileged to have the honour of speaking to the network about neurodiversity. Now, Simon is no stranger to the podcast. He's a previous guest of the show as well. He appeared on episode 22 of the podcast where he was still in the armed forces, and he was sharing his journey of being a, a leader in the armed forces and sharing his story around being dyslexic and his experiences around that and being a leader in the armed forces. So we had a great conversation there. And please do check that out in previous, uh, episodes as well. Episode 22, Things Change. So since our last conversation, things have moved on for Simon. So he's now left the. The armed forces and he's returned to civi life, I think is the right term, isn't it? So civilian life as a senior cyber security professional, which I'm really looking forward to kind of finding out a bit more about that as well. And I reached out to Simon, um, just to ask him if he'd like to come back as, as a returning guest on the podcast and share some of this transitional journey and this story through the lens of a neurodivergent professional and leader as well. I'm delighted that he accepted and he's our guest for what is episode 33 of the podcast as well. So, uh, without me waffling on too much longer. Welcome to the podcast, Simon. Brilliant.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, thank you very much, Mike. Yeah, it's really honored to be here. I was just reflecting on kind of what we spoke about before and also had a quick, quick, courteous listen again, just to make sure I don't repeat, uh, anything which I've. I've repeated before. No, yeah, really, really glad to be here.

Speaker A: Brilliant. Brilliant. So, yeah, we're absolutely delighted to have you as a guest on the podcast, Simon, and we're really looking forward to get into that transitional story as well. So I guess this is the part two of the Simon the Simon Smith story here as well. In the first part, we talked about a little bit about kind of like your history and your past and into, into your role as a leader in the armed forces. Now again, obviously things have moved on and changed and we're in a different situation now. But, uh, yeah, over to you really. Tell us about kind of where we were last time when obviously you were a leader in the armed forces, and what's happened since then. Then tell us a little bit about what's happened with you and your journey.

Speaker B: So, um, yeah, when we spoke last, I think, um, I was doing kind of the two roles. My main role is kind of a leader, kind of an officer in the British army, um, and doing that main role then I was also kind of chair for the Defence Dyslexia Network, which I kind of continued on um, after that. So those, how those two roles progressed. I finished that role, which I was, in terms of my leader role for it, which was absolutely brilliant. And then about six months ago I finished that role and then moved into kind of a temporary other role just for the last six months of my time. And then kind of leaving the forces basically around about now, pretty much starting a new job in the next couple of weeks. And then in terms of the co chair role, I've just handed that over in December last year. But in terms of the network, it really crewed on strength to strength or kept kind of going on that, uh, path, which is really brilliant to see. Uh, we kept kind of increasing our membership and we were up to just in the 2000 now. So we've, uh. 2000 in three years.

Speaker A: Uh, and that's just in the MOD as well, Simon?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's just in the MOD. That's, that's 2,000 people across, across the whole of the MOD. Army, Air Force, Navy, um, and civil service as well. And it keeps Growing, about 10, 15 people a week.

Speaker A: Uh, that's amazing.

Speaker B: And it keeps going. Yeah, it's really good to see. Um, and how we adapted uh, as a network in terms of what we were trying to do and our aims was something which we had to constantly revisit and I think we, uh, Lisa, the CO chair, we have to particularly revisit what we wanted to get from the networks. We changed from an establishing network to, ah, we now like to think they were kind of fairly prominent regarding, across all the other networks in defence. And what can we do to really exploit that? Because we're a bit more of a common entity, a bit more of a known entity now. And we're talking to the different stakeholders, both internal and external to the mod, which is really good. So uh, yeah, we're just looking at what the next steps were and for that. So um, yeah, that's kind of the next things to which, which we've managed to capitalize and I can obviously come talk more about that. But yeah, that's really, really exciting. Some of the things I might unpack

Speaker A: that, I might unpack that a little bit with you as well, if that's all right. Before we kind of jump into the transitional kind of story that you're going to share with our listeners for the benefit of our listeners as well. MOD is the Ministry of Defense in the uk which is the combination of all the armed forces, the Air Force and the navy, as Simon was saying there as well. So it's, it's a huge government organization which brings together all of the military armed forces and that's uniform and non uniform as well, isn't it Simon? As well? So yeah it is.

Speaker B: So yes, I'm in the British army part um, of it. But uh, we, when I think of the network, the Defence Selection Network is obviously a defence uh, wide one. So an MOD wide one, miniature defence wide one. So we're really, yeah we're really kind of keen to always use that kind of terminology to make sure it's getting as many people from across defence and not purely just a lot of people from the army side because I'm army and I'm one of the co chairs or uh, just the civil service side because the other co chair is a civil ah, civilian so she looks after the civilian side and I kind of co chair that kind of mainly focus on the military side. Um,

Speaker A: so it's a really collaborative network bringing together all of these diverse groups all into one to focus on predominantly dyslexia in and across the um, different organizations as well. I just wondered then in terms of obviously what's been the kind of, would you say the main impact of the issue with the co chair of. Right. Of the dyslexia network across all of these different parts. Moving parts.

Speaker B: The.

Speaker A: So the different armed forces, the, the uniform, the non uniform. What's been the main kind of impact would you say of, of growing to a network of over 2, 000 people focusing in and around uh, predominantly dyslexia. But I would imagine there'll be many people who, who have multiple neurodivergences who are kind of part of that as well. How's that all kind of panned out on what's been the impact.

Speaker B: So, yeah, so in terms of the impact, um, really, it's a really interesting question because there's so many different areas which we've looked at trying to focus on gaining that impact. And I think where we are now, I like to think of where we are now is dyslexia is becoming a common conversation not just within the network, but within different parts, across all teams in the mod, a lot more than it was before. So before we were trying to get all the people who identified as dyslexia, who wanted, who had interest in dyslexia in some way, bringing them all in to the network and then talking to them about it and going, by the way, this is the network, etc. This is the different things and considerations. And now we've did one of our events which is focused on the line manager side because we've reached a dyslexic audience a lot and that's still growing. And, uh, lots of dyslexic people are talking to dyslexic people. That's fine. The people we wanted to talk to is the line managers and that's what we've done in one of our recent in person events. And we got all of the line managers to there and said, look, this is what you need to do. Or we would suggest these are the considerations for people who are in your team who are dyslexic. Which is definitely going to happen based on the statistics. As people know, 1 in 10, 1 in 5 people dyslexic, and that is becoming a lot more common occurrence and we're realizing that a lot more in some of the things which we're hearing about and we're having line managers, a lot more line managers reach out to us directly who aren't dyslexic, going, hi, I've got several people who are dyslexic in my team. How can I best support them? And that was happening a bit, but nowhere near as much as it is now. That's where I feel the impact is really having now, is that we've got these cohort of, uh, people and then now we're reaching out and branching out and we're seeing and hearing a lot more conversations and we're having different other events which we're going to be turning up to, which are done and run by other people who are really driving home the message, which either heard about the network and then started doing their own active campaigning on their own bases and their own camps around the world actually. And Then they're kind of asking to talk to us a bit and asking us to kind of bring in, whereas before we were the people to go out and set up the different ones in the different areas and then do that initial reach out. Whereas now people are going, oh, by the way, I'm doing this, this, this and this is what I'm doing. Can you come and help? Oh, that's brilliant. Yes, yes, we would love to. Ah, yeah, that's for us the impact. We're really moving now, shifting to the line manager side.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm really curious and it's interesting to kind of see how you've come together and moved from obviously beyond that, uh, I guess that initial almost like an extended version of an employee resource group into much more of a proactive kind of support group for wider staff. So non dyslexic, uh, people who work um, across the different parts of the different organizations and also supporting directly managers as well. And it's interesting how you've come as a network and come to the conclusion that managers are one of the areas that really needs a lot of support as well. Because I know certainly in the space I work in, I've come to a very similar conclusion as well that managers, uh, ultimately are the ones that are going to kind of make or break anything that happens in the workplace. Right. So if they're not on board and they don't understand and they're ill equipped to support and don't have the resource, then no matter how well intentioned your plans might be, they're never going to get off the ground if there's a manager there who can't kind of enable that. Right. So I think that's, I think that's, that's a solid, a solid basis to operate off. Can I just play devil's advocate slightly here? And, and I'm dyslexic, so I'm um, absolutely overjoyed to kind of see things like the MOD dyslexia network. And I've spoken as you know, I'm a big fan and a huge supporter and advocate of everything that you do. One thing that I, I see get asked a lot, I'm just interested to kind of hear your thoughts on it is. So it's fantastic that there's so much going on in the space of dyslexia, uh, and an awareness and support. Hey, over here. I'm ADHD or I'm autistic. So what about us? Where does the dyslexia kind of network in the MOD stand on that and supporting the wider uh, encompassing area of neurodivergent folks and neurodiversity more broadly.

Speaker B: No, that's a really good question. And um, one thing recently just touched upon this very quickly is that in terms of that challenge uh, and hearing that voice uh, and of the different views from people who are dyslexic and non dyslexic to the network, we really encourage that and really want it because that's the only way we improve as a network and learn more about it and understand the views. Particularly people who aren't dyslexic, who want to understand a bit more or who have a view or perspective on it. We need as a network to hear that challenge because funnily enough if you get a load of dyslexic people in audience and talk about the positives of it it will be really high. But we need to hear other people talk about those sides. So I really really appreciate that challenge. And um, in terms of that there is a support networks in the mod. Brilliantly so there is an mod neurodiversity network which is we kind of talk to and we um, regularly discuss that. So they support and champion and support the other wider m supporting kind of neurodiversity characteristics. But ultimately when we over go anywhere and talk about it we talk about neurodiversity generally. We don't kind of say we are focusing pure and dyslexia because obviously dyspraxia, dysonia, uh, adhd, autism, lots of overlapping

Speaker A: and intersecting divergences going on, isn't there? Yeah.

Speaker B: So in the process of, when we were building up to, when we were establishing we managed to, we were quite lucky. We got a lot of traction really early on um, and we were um, chatting with the other mod neurodiversity organization and we, we had kind of a resource where people could chat and talk on the team site and we created kind of uh, a kind of areas for ADHD autism to talk uh, on there because that was just. We wanted to create a shared area even though it was in our network space. Obviously we're dyslexia. We wanted to create an area for it because several people were asking us about it and we said it's not really the area which you would normally want to focus on and we don't want to stray into an area which we don't have as much knowledge on as well and we uh, don't want to do anything which is necessarily either incorrect or do something which is not the best Support mechanism for something. But, uh, we thought it's just prudent to do so. Uh, we did that, but now there's other chat areas and there's other discussion groups for kind of adhd, autism. But generally, to be honest, everyone just, just gets on, asks loads of questions and just support. And as long as people know that there is support, I'm ambivalent with whatever chat group or whatever name, it's where as long as someone with a neurodiverse characteristic needs support, wants to talk to someone or talk to a group or colleagues or friends or whatever. Yeah, that is there really. So. And it feels like it is. Yeah, there. So, yeah, um, hopefully continues.

Speaker A: No, I'm really pleased to hear that as well because I think it's so easy to kind of funnel into just one particular area, is it? Without listening to the voices of lots of different people who are at different areas on the spectrum. So, for example, you know, if I'm bipolar and I'm m dyslexic as well, I might want to come off. I'm just bipolar. I might want to come and be part of this community and offer my perspective as well. It's great to create, I think, a space where all voices uh, are welcomed and heard and can contribute as well. Which it sounds very much to me likes what's going on there in your network as well. So again, I welcome that and get behind that 100%. Sounds like you're very proud of what you've done and your role that you've played in the network and in the wider community across all of the defence network. Would that be fair assumption to make?

Speaker B: Yes, I am. I feel it's. It's really nice to see the impact you can have and when you see that directly through feedback, directly or indirectly from people that it's just really, really lovely to see and know people have been supported. It's the quickest way to get kind of that tangible. Have I made a difference today? Well, I have. Because of xyz or have I made a difference this week or this month? It's. It's a real nice way to see it. Whereas some of the different roles you can do, I feel you can get really lost in the. In the process and what you're doing and the actions to push what you're doing a bit further and to add value to the organization, but to try and add value to people, individual lives is the bits which I think people would remember a lot more when you think of the time you had and that's What I remember from when I reflect on my 14 years in the army is I reflect on the people who influenced positively my life and my experience because of the way they were, their positive leadership, um, characteristics, their examples, etc. All of those is what I remember and what I take away is leadership knowledge as well to hopefully take it further forward. Um, yeah, it's, yeah, that's. Yeah, I'm really proud hopefully, ah, of what we've got to do. But to be honest, it's as in the last year particularly that it's really much been the majority of the people in the wider network who have really drove it further forward. We've just kind of given a little bit of signpost, or me personally, I've just given a little bit of signpost in support of where people to go to and maybe positive reinforcements with their own ideas. But there's lots of other people's ideas really, which is all going, making it go further.

Speaker A: It's lovely to hear and I think you've played a really important role in everything that's happened, Simon. So congratulations and it's great to see that neurodiversity more broadly has a voice in the Ministry of Defence and across the armed um, forces, the navy, the air Force and both in uniformed and non uniformed and across the civil service that play a vital part uh, in terms of defence as well. So it's great to see the elevation as well and that really our voices are being heard across defence as well. I think you'll be leaving behind an excellent legacy there in terms of obviously the work that you've done and the continued work now that the network can continue to do and to continue not just elevating the voices but continue to really drive and make an impact for the many, many, many neurodivergent voices that are part of the uh, various armed forces as well. So it's great to see. But tell us about then. So obviously you're in, you're in that transitional kind of period, aren't uh, you then between leaving your, your leadership role in the armed forces to moving into civilian life then? So tell us about that. And obviously you're leaving behind we still be part of the network going forwards, or is that, are you kind of just moving and leaving that, handing that off and moving into your, your new life and new role now? How's all this going to work? Tell us about your transition.

Speaker B: So, uh, yeah, the transition, there's, there's so many different parts to the transition in the army, um, you get kind of a Whole year as well. There some exemptions, but you generally get a whole year to resettle.

Speaker A: So I've given.

Speaker B: I give my notice around about kind of Feb last year to say, okay, as of early March, I will, um, give my year's notice. So it's a really long period to reflect and consider all the different things for it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's really, uh, yeah, it's really interesting. Different dynamics and considerations to think about. But in terms of the network role. Yes. I have handed that over to another co chair who's military as well. So we've kept one military, one civilian co chair, uh, and his army as well. So that's. And she's been involved in the network probably nearly since we started it as well. And she's in huge amounts with it already. So she'll be absolutely brilliant. And I wanted to be really clear that I wanted to hand it over to her and um, to make sure I take that step back because it's really easy to stay in and keep involved with it. Even though I won't have access to the systems and things which are used to communicate with each other, it's really to go, okay, my time has been done now. I had an idea and thoughts and views. But ultimately we need someone else with different thoughts and views and ideas to take it on a step up. Um, and if we have the same thoughts and views and ideas that, uh, that won't take it to where it needs to go. It needs to have someone else's leadership to take it on forward. So I will kind of. I'm really keen to make sure I take that step back away from it and deliberately not be involved, um, with it really. But, um, in terms of what I do in kind of the civilian sector, I'm really KE to keep involved with that side and look at what other support. I know there's a civil service dyslexia, uh, and dysgraphia network, I believe the SDDN they're called. So. And, and there's loads of different areas and then with it in civilian street in terms of support. So I'll keep my eye out for a lot of the different areas there, um, and see kind of what I can do to advocate further. But in, in the civilian sector, um, and then in terms of kind of my. Yeah, my resettlement, it's um. I think the phrase I've heard before say it's a wild ride over, over the year. It's definitely really true. It's, it's. It's a lot to think about. And consider over a 12 month period to leave something just been more than just a job for 14 years. M. And there's so many different periods of time where you think that will be a big thing and that's not. But it's a small things which catch you out which are uh. Oh well that was actually really difficult to do to hand over this part or to do this part that was actually it. So I thought my last period of time in uniform and giving that back, I thought that would be really a bit of a difficult period. But that wasn't actually I didn't find that part as difficult because I think I meant prepared for it. But it was small little parts um, which I thought was kind of a little bit difficult. And it's a small little things which you're giving back and handing over which get all. I'm not going to do that again actually. Or um. There's just so many different.

Speaker A: What was, what was something.

Speaker B: Um, so weirdly one of the most recently is um. So for me fitness has been a big part of kind of my time time in uniform. I've really enjoyed that part and the camaraderie and the team building it brings is absolutely amazing. It's something which is just such a huge positive to get paid to do fitness, uh, during the working day which is, which is absolutely brilliant. And some of the events which I've done have been amazing. One of my colleagues of mine said um, I need to go back to camp to pick up some stuff from there anyway. And he said oh, we've actually, there's a competition, we're doing a fitness competition. Um, we're one short, like do you want, can you jump in? Um, and that was Wednesday last week weirdly. And it was then I was doing it and I was like, oh, this is my, it's my last fitness thing I'm going to do now in uniforms in my time serving. And I didn't kind of know when that was going to be. I didn't really think about when that was. And for me that's kind of a quite a big moment to kind of oh, this is my last time. And I'm just standing there and seeing every single person who is all there who is generally a pretty high level of fitness as well when you're competing and working with all these other people and building teams and cohesion. And that was kind of a really, I felt kind of a big moment for myself. I didn't really think because I didn't know it was going to happen as well me, that's quite a. Oh well this is um, this is it now. This is the last time I'll be doing this and then that's it. And the next time I'll have to forecast obviously my own time to do fitness outside of it and, and team cohesion through them, through the means of physical fitness is, is not something which you can do to the same degree as what you can do in, in the armies. Um, yeah, that's kind of one of the, one of them over, over the year which I thought. Oh yeah, this is actually ah. Uh, yeah, this is like a moment. Yeah this is, this is kind of a moment which I'll kind of, I'll remember and reflect on as part of the, of the 12 month journey, which people call it a journey. And uh, I do, I do feel like it definitely is uh, it is that over, over the year I'm really,

Speaker A: I'm really curious about and I really like the sound of the fact that when you're in the armed forces or I uh, assume that's across all the armed forces of the Navy, the Air Force is this one year kind of like transitional sort of period. We know, don't we as neurodivergent people that ah, transitioning can be a really difficult area and having additional time I guess to transition. Do you find that's been more helpful in terms of having like a whole 12 months to transition or has that been difficult as you've kind of kept hitting these different moments where you've kind of thought I'm not going to be part of that anymore and almost getting that kind of sense of I guess loss, um, in a way I don't know what's the transition feel like through your lens and as a neurodivergent person as well.

Speaker B: So I think that is really key for myself to look at what traits I have and what things I generally do or don't do which support that 12 month period. Because there is peaks and troughs of activity and some parts are really, really self driven probably actually a lot of it is self driven in terms of those peaks and troughs um, of activity and for me is knowing that what, what do I do, what do I likely, what type of activities I go, I'll put that off because that's actually a bit of a difficult one or that might be a quite challenging or emotional thing to kind of go through and I might put that bit off or might not or uh, or something along those lines. Identifying those uh, bits were really um, key for me. Um, from kind of the neurodiversity side. Um, and in terms of the 12 months it's quite strange. I think a plan would, plan would fit any timeline. So if someone gave me six months and I did it, I'll still have the same, but it would just be quicker, quicker peaks and troughs. Whereas if it was two years then it'll be different. And sometimes you get that as well. In terms of it, depending when you're finishing service you can have up to two years as well to do that resettlement time if you're finishing your contract, for example, if you've done a lot, served a lot longer. Whereas I gave my notice to leave earlier, uh, uh, than kind of my full pension point, if that makes sense. So my full time um, of service, it is quite difficult for me. I've made sure I just did planning and listened to every single person for it. There's a little tagline I got and I don't know if I stole it from someone or actually I heard it from someone or made it myself. But either way I like the idea of listening to every single piece of advice and take every bit of it with a pinch of salt.

Speaker A: Okay. Yeah.

Speaker B: I mean what's really, really lucky is you're leaving an organization where every single person who was part of it is really, really keen to give you their time to help and support you. Uh, uh, they've gone through that experience. They kind of know that it's really keen to support people who go through that transition. And I didn't really think much of that. It was the case of some, maybe people, odd people might just go, yeah, I'll give you 5, 10 minutes chat M But the amount of support is unbelievable. Uh, from people and colleagues, ex colleagues is just huge. And that part of it is really, really, really helpful. And so the amount of discussions and chats I've had with so many people over that year supporting has been absolutely brilliant and all of them have been really, really, really useful. And everyone's on their own different journey. So that's kind uh, of the caveat you have to. I uh, feel like it's applied to it is someone will give you their opinions and views from their own experiences and making sure you go, okay, well that's their experience, their journey. Let's put that in the context of uh, I'm not in that situation potentially. So that part uh, might not apply to me, but I've not had a discussion with anyone yet which has not been beneficial. Even ones which someone's situation is extremely different to mine. I've still taken away at least, at least one small bit of advice or support or a resource which I've then used in some way. So yeah, I've been really lucky really um, in that side over the 12 months. But um, yes, it's a lot to do to kind of leave normalization after that.

Speaker A: Yeah, no for sure. And I guess it will be for you in any uh, serving military personnel that kind of, I guess that sense of loss right when you leave something that you've become so that kind of rodri. That attachment of doing those things on, on a day to day basis and those relationships and that kind of routine, um, that suddenly it's going to be something completely different. Right. So I guess it's good to hear that you know there's so much support there. People have got your back and people want you to succeed beyond your life after moving out of the armed forces as well. And would you say you were able to and I don't know. Does the network and the other networks as well play a supporting role in that for people who are perhaps on the spectrum and need a different kind of conversation sometimes about different needs as well? Is that a role that some of the networks play there internally as well?

Speaker B: So quite strange is that the networks, in terms of support networks, if that was an area which I think people asked of it, I think they would step up and do that. But there's so many different other wider networks, employee support networks, forces transitioning networks. There's so much from that side that I don't feel like the other support networks don't really need to do as much for it. But what's quite funny is and this is where we look back at the membership for the defence, the section network, one third being army and the amount of people in my opinion in the army who are dyslexic is absolutely through the roof that it's a self fulfilling support in terms of the traits which generally affect people with dyslexia. The kind of starting from a blank page and things like that of just write a CV from scratch which is a huge part. There's loads and loads of CV support and then there's loads of people who have templates which then they can give you to help and that steps you on the rungs to be able to learn or what's the best thing I want to do with my CV exam for example? Uh, for example and that's what I find interesting is that a lot of people end up providing support for people who are Dyslexic without even realizing it. Just because they went through that transition journey, either found something was missing or wasn't there, or the support was there within a certain degree and then they've created and helped and provided that support. Someone, whether it is some people who have created companies to help people transition through it, um, or there's actually just MOD endorsed organizations or part of the mod who help people transition anyway. So it's weirdly ends up supporting a lot of people with dyslexia without even realizing it, without even going, oh, by the way, this is support for someone who is dyslexic, but actually it's support for someone. But generally people who are dyslexia are going to find that support a lot more useful than someone who maybe isn't.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So, uh, kind of events and stuff like that and building a bit of routine around it. So it's used to the routine which we've been used to and it's kind of a continuing continuation of that routine to the point of where you want to kind of find obviously kind of student employment.

Speaker A: Yeah, so it sounds like there's quite a big population of dyslexic neurodivergent folks already there by proxy, which surely is the place eventually we want to get to anyway, isn't it? In all workplaces, uh, where support is any, any support is available for all neurotypes and it just becomes just part of the culture that, that, that that's how we support everyone regardless of the neurotype. We just, we just make sure that it's like a universal kind of model of support that benefits everybody. Ultimately that's probably where we all want to get to, isn't it? Probably. Like I said, some organizations like you just described, it might be just happening anyway by proxy. But you know, we want to I think, get across that, don't we? Across the board where everyone's kind of supported regardless of where they are, if they're on the spectrum or if they're not on the spectrum and make sure that people just are able to do their best really. So it's good to kind of hear that that's happening already within some, uh, workplaces and that you're able to get the kind of support that you need.

Speaker B: Yeah, so it's really interesting on that because when we got to we've done a couple of events where we've talked about different support, kind of technical support measures and software enhancements and different bits of software to have and things like that or Text to speech software, all these different other things which generally people would sexually would like to gravitate towards. And someone made a really interesting observation on one of the calls, said, well, this is just generally useful support for anyone. And after that it was just quite funny because we all talk about it, we're talking about, oh, this is dyslexic support stuff, where actually it's not. It's just really useful to write a load of words and just hear them read back to you sometimes because you might have misspelled or missed a word, whether you're dyslexic or not. And same with mind mapping software. Some people, even if they're not dyslexic, generally really like mind maps. And it's quite interesting because all these different things which we have, we have a huge spike of people who are looking at the different tips and tricks and different demos. We've got how to use OneNote or something like that, and loads of people are watching it and looking at it and they're going, oh, I'm not slexing at all. But I just. A friend of mine showed me this demo and it seemed really, really good. And then they shared that wider that we see a huge spike in views on some of the different things which you've done. And it's quite comical because, um. Yeah, it's just for. It's just support. It's not dyslexic support, it's just support.

Speaker A: Uh, human support.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's human support. And, um, that's what makes it really quite comical, actually, thinking about. Of the networks and the roles and things like that and ultimately just improving.

Speaker A: Anyone?

Speaker B: Yeah, day to day.

Speaker A: Right. Inclusion benefits everyone.

Speaker B: Right, yeah, definitely.

Speaker A: So, uh. So tell me about. Obviously, so you've got to this point then, Simon, and now you're, uh, you're moving into kind of cyber security. What's kind of shaped that pathway then, that kind of pathway into cyber security and becoming that leader in cyber security from where you were.

Speaker B: So for me, I've kind of. It's been a progression over, uh, several years. So I've, um. I did kind of an IT degree before joining the military and then I joined the IT communications part of the military. And then as you're going through, there's a ability to specialise a little bit more in that area and do some things and have some opportunities, which I've been really lucky to have. So as I kind of started that about kind of five or six years ago, really getting a bit more into that specialism. Side, I just got a bit more interested in it, um, and having the fundamentals of kind of programming and, and all that kind of really technical stuff back from 2006, 2007, of doing, um, my kind of my network computing degree. Uh, I just thought I'll kind of continue on with that really, and just see if, um, it's something which is an area which I can kind of keep doing, keep exploiting. Really. Yeah. Um, I think it's about three or four years ago, it had kind of a couple of opportunities and then it's just kind of branched on from there and so. And I think there is kind of a fair amount of, kind of neurodiverse support, neurodiverse traits and people generally within kind of the IT or technical specialisms. Really.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And for me, the bits which I like to try and hopefully think I'm useful at is utilizing the very technical words and information and knowledge and the huge depth and complexity which definitely cybersecurity has utilizing and looking at all of that and then translating that into kind of actual useful English and general analogies and using that to say, okay, well, this is this situation and it's comparable to this because that's the key part. Uh, I think sometimes it's missing within it. I think it's known a lot more now within the cyber security industry, but it's still an area which is really difficult to bridge that gap because the depth and width and breadth of the actual technology is huge now. Um, and so to have those conversations to translate it to, uh, kind of the business leader side is really, really difficult. Um, yeah, so that's kind of. I just thought I'll continue on that. And generally being in the. As kind of more of an officer role and more of a leadership role within the military, it leads a bit towards that as well. Those type of conversations in terms of, of summarizing big depths and quantity of information into simple, simplistic kind of terms

Speaker A: generally, I would probably reflect that, uh, that probably plays well with your dyslexic way of thinking as well. And there's something in the fact that dyslexic thinking and problem solving and being able to kind of interpret large, complex challenges and simplify them is maybe kind of played some part in. In that direction.

Speaker B: Maybe 100%. There's, um. I definitely. I think it was probably about six, seven months into kind of starting up and finding the network, founding the network, where I really realized that, oh, actually the reason why I've managed to. I feel like I've Been kind of quite lucky and fortunate successful in terms of what I've managed to do is because of my dyslexic thinking and skills which has enabled me to just take that, that zoomed out approach and go okay, well actually this, this part, this part, this part, bring these all together and do that and then that's probably a solution which I think kind of seems about right really. And my brain, I think chilexic brain, Germany just a bit quicker at that and it can make it make those connections really, really, really quickly. It might struggle on some of the other things and different where it's uh, there, there, there, etc, all those might take a little bit longer to do that. But um, ultimately I would prefer to have this other skill of being able to yeah look at all these different in randomly unconnected pieces and bring the connections together quicker than generally maybe some other people who aren't on selective art neurodivergence.

Speaker A: No. Absolutely strange isn't it how we can become, I guess as a society and we're not going to dive into medical and social models here, but as a society we can become so obsessed with like you've said, they're getting the grammar right whereas they're there he she all these kind of like grammatical things that as dyslexic folks might not naturally play well to us, but actually when it comes to solving some real nuanced problems and challenges, you know, we're really good at that. But instead we focus in on whether we can spell something right or not and that can like adversely hold someone back from their careers or they can be scolded for such things and not see the bigger picture here that actually someone's bloody really good at solving some real big things that make a massive difference. Who cares if they get their E's or their eyes the wrong way around. At the end of the day, ultimately the thing is about what are we good at and what can we do and what are our strengths. So we can play to that because as we know those things is as important as they may be to kind of present language in the right way to someone or whatever. Actually the real kind of thing is what problems are we solving and what difference are we making in the world, right. And using our brains to be able to do that as well. And you're working in the technology space as well as we know and the more technology keeps continues to advance and evolve, things like that are going to be automated and solved for us anyway. So in certain respects they're going to really Kind of rub alongside us and make sure that those things are just done as we go as well. So we're going to have to worry less about that because the technology is going to be running alongside us to support us with that. So I don't know how you feel because you're obviously working in that technology side. Do you think technology is a real kind of enabler and level leveler up for us neurodivergent folks?

Speaker B: Yes, I think it does. If it's used right, I think it can really level up because it can make any of the challenges which neurodiverse people generally have, it could just level them out a little bit more and it makes them not that prominent for it, which is quite good because it's kind of, I feel like it's refining some of the work of people who are generally neurodivergent to coalesce their ideas to make sure that they're actually getting enough gravitas to where they need to go to, to be interpreted right rather than to be stuck at, uh, the position where they're trying to formulate their different ideas to something to then actually make that step forward to where that can be added. So, um, I think it is really key and it's like anything, it's kind of just learning the different tools and making sure that you're understanding the, the best way to do that, to exploit the tools and not be heavily relied on them as well. To make sure that you can, you still need to understand the core and basic principles of IT and programming. There's a huge, obviously discussion at the moment about programming languages, what's utility and obviously large language models, kind of doing a lot of potentially some of the work for that. And um, where people sit in terms of coders, et cetera, and their ability to what roles they can kind of do. And um, yeah, it's really difficult. And I think the key bits I think of is it's really vital that people who are neurodivergent reflect, especially kind of when leaving the military, what aspects they're good at and then making sure they continue what aspects they're good at into what future job roles they can do. Because there's certain paths which will naturally lead from military people in kind of extra military roles. But it's making sure that if you have the skills and passion and enthusiasm for them to keep going through there. Um, but making sure to, I think, to have that little check of okay, well, does this support neurodivergence? Kind of my positive neurodivergent aspects or is it going to be heavily testing the areas which I potentially might struggle on a little bit and then that might actually mean it challenge you kind of a little bit more um, for it. And there's so many, there's so many variables within that.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So in terms of actually how much support they've had before, how much uh, they are knowledgeable about their own areas which they're kind of and weak at and things. There's so many different things to know and understand. But I think that's a really key area when you're kind of moving between job roles to go, okay, well what are the requirements of this role? Is that going to fit my strengths or my kind of my weaknesses and what etc.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think you make some really interesting observations there, I've noticed. And would it be a fair observation to say you've always seen from our conversations before as well, Simon? I think it comes across from me when I reflect that you've always seen your dyslexia and your dyslexic thinking is a real strength. Obviously we know with these challenges for us in different areas and you'll no doubt seen those and felt those as well. But focusing on at all times, well, what am I good uh, at? What are my strengths? How can I move forward to be able to utilize my way of thinking with the strengths that I've got to really trajector me forwards? Is that kind of how you've kind of shaped your career pattern throughout your life?

Speaker B: It's a, it's a bit odd because the military, there's a lot of different roles you have to do in terms of going through it. So there's not actually as much freedom potentially as you would want. There's so many variables within that.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So in terms of what role, what type of area of the army you're in or RAF or navy etc. So there's so many different areas in terms of that where you can deflection choosing. It's all completely, completely varied. I've definitely kind of have seen it as a strength and I've tried to do to play it to strengths but there's always so many areas of the military which they will ask you to do certain tasks which need to be done. Whether it's time based or whether it's written language, it will always need to be done like that. And um, I'm a really big advocate in the fact that the military always needs to ask that of people and you need to have a minimum competency level in order to achieve that, if you don't then you need to be, you need to have a lot of self reflection in what you need to do to get yourself to those standards because that's a common standard across everyone, um, depending on role etc. But um, it's really key to make sure that everyone has that and you've got to take that self flex moment to go well what do I need to do to get better? And I can't just go well that's my weak area. I can't do that because there's some. You don't have the flexibility as you do potentially in some other organizations to go actually I can't do that except well no, that needs to be done and your role defines that. So you need to find a way to get better and improve that. And I made the um, reflecting last time we spoke about report writing as a lead, as an officer you need to do report writing, you need to be able to do that, you need to be competent of that. And uh, that's a really key and vital aspect because that deep promotion, yes or no for people. So um, it's vital to get that right and if you don't get that right then that's something you need to be better at. You can't just go on um, just not very good at it. No, you need to just not doing that. Yeah, you can't just kind of not doing that. And um, so yeah that's absolutely vital. But I once again I kind of, as you flexed on before, I count myself very lucky. I was diagnosed at the very beginning of secondary school in year seven. So I really one of the very, very few lucky ones who's known about my dyslexia the majority of my life. So I've always had coping mechanisms. I've had huge amounts of support, extra time in GCC's and onwards, etc. So I've been really lucky that I've had the support but others aren't uh, looking fortunately and a lot of people get diagnosed a lot later on, 40s, 50s in terms of when they find out they're dyslexic. There's so many variables to kind of touch. There's no one size fits all for it. But um, yeah definitely I felt lucky so I can utilize those skills and not worry too much about the weaknesses, knowing that I can upskill myself on those areas.

Speaker A: Yeah. And as we've touched on, you know, as technology continues to evolve, those weaknesses can become weaknesses for example or challenges can become less so with the advent of technology to support us with that. So if you, you use an example there of report writing, well, we can use AI and technology to support us with that now as well, can't we? So we can get our words down in whatever way. We can get our words down or we can even get some help getting some words down. You know, we can speak into, uh, into, into AI or into software now and get some words and then repeat that back and then help us formulate our think. Thinking into a way that perhaps 10 years ago we was never able to do. So, you know, things keep changing, I think, to be able to support us with that as well, isn't it? So it's right, it's what you say about just not just kind of saying, uh, look, I'm a victim here. I can't do anything, there's nothing I can do. It's beyond my circumstances. That's it. I can't do this too well. What can I do? What can I do to help myself here in this situation? If this is something that I've got to do, it's part of my job. What, what things are available to me, what, what support can I put in place to be able to help me mitigate that and be able to go on a level playing field with others, what success enablers do. I need to be able to do that so I'm on that level playing field and then I can really showcase my talents and strengths and that different thinking that I've got that I can bring to the table. Right.

Speaker B: No, massive.

Speaker A: So what's next then? What's next for you, Simon? Tell us about what's next. You've shared in this conversation your journey, where you were, where you are, some of the transitional, the resettlement. I like that resettlement kind of framing on it as well, that resettlement period, your pathway through that cyber and developing yourself that way and coming to where you are now. So what's next for Simon?

Speaker B: So for me, I kind of start with a new company in the next couple of weeks and I'll make that public in terms of where I'm going and what different roles I'm doing. But, um, it will hopefully be very much still kind of working alongside different, different supporting elements with, with the kind of the mod. So hopefully I still keep some type of linkages in there for it, which means it makes it a bit, hopefully kind of easier for me to, to do that transition period as well. And I feel comfortable. But, um, yeah, I'm kind of really positive to just continue on that kind of hopefully that cyber security side really and um, just continue on and try to refine my knowledge and skills and to just make, see what difference I can kind of make and just to take the traits which hopefully are really useful and I've been quite good at in the military side in terms of the traditional aspects of just task orientated driven output side just to kind of get those and to kind of continue them on into, into the civilian side. So um, kind of more to kind of come public in the next couple of weeks but um, yeah, I'll kind of see where it goes. But I'm just very much, I'm just trying to really keep an open mind and take each day as it comes. As I go through that process to go what new can I learn today? How can I get better? And just constantly try to get that feedback which I felt I was really lucky I managed to get that in the last year. Ah and a bit to get a lot of feedback from the people I worked with where I can be better and make sure I kind of capitalise on that and really take that feedback on um, to make sure that I can learn and make sure my learning cycle is a lot more rapid and I think it's going to need to be huge when I start my new role. Um, for me doing a firstbody enrolled in 14 years and at first kind of new jobs, a lot to learn and take in. Once I kind of think the dust is settled then I'll have a look at kind of more of the diversity side in terms of the neurodiversity side and support and see what I can do and what impact I can make on the other side of the fence and I think no doubt um, Lisa as co chair uh, uh, will probably reach out to me in terms of asking me what I'm doing and when the different things are and what.

Speaker A: Keeping your account accountable.

Speaker B: Yeah, keep me accountable and ask me what difference I'm making and all that stuff. But no, I think very much just keep an open mind looking at how I can bed in and kind of make a positive difference to hopefully kind of a really, really good team uh, which I'm going to be a part of in the next couple of weeks.

Speaker A: Brilliant. And yeah, thank you for, for sharing your, your journey with us again for part two of, of your journey. It's been a pleasure talking to you and understanding a bit more about that journey that you've been on and that you've gone through and that way you go into as well. Keep on Doing what you're doing. Keep on changing the world with that, uh, dyslexic thinking. I think you're making a real great difference to the world in terms of what you do and what you're doing. Uh, keep advocating, keep advocating. You're a great advocate for yourself and for others. And like I said, be, uh, really great to kind of see you continue with advocacy outside of the military as well and into that civilian, um, world as well. So I'm really looking forward to kind of seeing you really kind of get up and use your, your leadership and your, your position and your voice as a neurodivergent leader in civilian world as well as well, and making a difference as well. Because, yeah, we know that there's a lot. There's a huge population of neurodivergent people in the IT sector as well. So it'd be great to kind of, I think, touch base with you and find out what's happening there as well as, and find out kind of what's going on and what you're doing as well. Really, really kind of value that. And, uh, yeah, I look forward to kind of seeing your journey continue to, you unfold. Simon, it's always a pleasure talking to you. Thank you for being a guest on the podcast.

Speaker B: No, thank you very much for, uh, the opportunity to chat through Mike. It's brilliant. And uh, yeah, I see loads of stuff that you do with this podcast and what I think as well. So it's, yeah, huge, huge positive difference in. That's making. Ah, thank you very much for the opportunity.

Speaker A: Really appreciate it. And I think we spoke for the benefits of listeners, didn't we? Before we sign off, we spoke about the reason. The why, I guess. What's the why? Why do we do this? Why do I even do this podcast? And we said, didn't we? I do it because I want to invite people like yourself on to actually give, give a voice and give a voice to people who might not have a voice and to kind of share stories and to kind of share hope and to share optimism and to share that actually being neurodivergent is not a deficit. You're not broken. You don't need to be fixed. You can really go out there and make a difference in the world as well. So I've improved people like you on the show, actually sharing their journey with, with others and sharing, you know, what is possible, what you can achieve. Then. It's, it's. Yeah, it's. That's why I do this. And it's great to have you on and share your stories, Simon. So thank you so much again.

Speaker B: Yeah, thank you very much.

Speaker A: So, uh, yeah, and before we sign off, I just want to remind everybody that if you are enjoying the podcast as well, this goes live on YouTube as well. It goes on Spotify. Don't forget to subscribe to the show and share it with others. And, uh, do do feel free to jump in and comment and whatnot and engage with this show. It's always great to have new listeners and to kind of share these stories as well. If you want to find out more about what my business does, be brilliant people, then here's the link to the website Be Brilliant people dot com. I specialize in supporting neurodiversity in the workplace, supporting leaders and organizations to really help embed neurodivergent talent in the workplace as well. Much m what we spoke about in this podcast as well. So I'm also a coach and mentor and work with neurodivergent folks and again, use my voice as a speaker and podcaster to really elevate and lift up the conversation around neurodiversity. So again, yeah, please check out my website. Engage with the show and the podcast. And if you're out there and you're doing your thing, keep doing your thing, and if you're out there and this has really helped you in some way, then that's brilliant. That's if one person's been helped by this conversation today. Job done. We're really grateful to you and really grateful to our listeners who've joined us today. So. So thank you so much and thank you again, Simon, for joining us. And, uh, best of luck with everything going forwards.

Speaker B: Thank you, Mike.

Speaker A: Cheers. Thank you. Bye for now.