Redefining Road Safety: Future Tech with Mike Rowe

The Reimagine Mobility podcast series. I'm here with Mike Rowe from orderlies. Mike, thanks for joining us. Why don't you give our listeners and viewers a little bit of a background of who you are, and then maybe a short description of what Autoliv does in the mobility ecosystem.

And then we both dive into and reimagine mobility together here on this next 30 minutes of discussions. Well thank you Stefan. Sounds great. So my name is Mike Rowe.

I'm the electronics and mechatronics sales director in North America for Autoliv. I believe is the global leader in airbags, seatbelts and steering wheels. And we're very focused on now reimagining mobility and how to make those new experiences and new features, safe. so we're put a lot of focus on, you know, how do we improve, safety?

what is the role of the steering wheel in autonomous driving? What is the role of the seatbelt? Last time I was driving, as well as some other advanced development, discussions and really excited to have this conversation because some of the ideas that AVL has and smarter braking in these types of things. it's a very exciting time in the industry because there's a lot of overlap between a lot of these passive active technologies.

And we're even seeing instances where these passive technologies are becoming more active. Excellent. So you sort of already moved into my first question, Mike, with your feedback on looking at steering wheels, airbags and seatbelts. A lot of times, I think when we look at futuristic movies where we already have vehicles driving around autonomously, and even I feel like when I talk at times with people, maybe outside of the, let's say, automotive hotspots globally, the perception seems to be and again, the movie industry gives us the idea that autonomous vehicles will not need airbags, they will not need seatbelts because, hey, it's an autonomous vehicle.

And why do you need this right. It's going to keep us safe. So, Mike, give us a little bit of a perspective on how Autoliv looks at that and how they look at it. And on the onset of truly autonomous vehicles, maybe coming into more our daily lives, maybe over the next 5 or 10 years.

Oh, this is what I do. And I'm happy to talk about this subject. I find it fascinating, fascinating and all the nuance that comes with it. So looking at, you know, the SAE defines autonomous driving into six levels.

the futuristic movie, what you're talking about would be, level five, which would be no steering wheel at all in the last year. there's been a lot of discussion about this and a lot of debate, I would say, within the community of the safety community and in academia. Is is level five even achievable? To have a steering wheel that works in or has have a vehicle that works at all conditions with no steering wheel.

and that has been, I would say, a bit of a reckoning. And we've even seen some companies, recently in Silicon Valley that were, you know, really focused on green powertrain, new technologies as well as autonomous technologies that have put those, projects on pause, where the market is now and where the industry is now, as far as I can tell, as we're talking about level two and level three, mostly. level two is typically the combination of adaptive cruise control with lane keep assist.

So it's to driver convenience features. It's meant to reduce driver fatigue. and right now there's not a safety benefit for that. ratings typically drives regulation.

Consumer Reports came out with their ratings about a year and a half ago. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety just came out with their, ratings as well. That's really focused on safety. And I think this is really going to, provide opportunities for the regulators to regulate, but also for technologies to help drivers.

And some of the topics that that we can get into is, you know, when we start talking about impaired drivers or drowsy drivers or distracted drivers, these different features, such as, you know, the smart braking technology that AVL has, with adaptive cruise control as well as the lane keep assist, it can kind of cover for drivers bad behavior. And what is the right way to, to implement those technologies and make sure that the driver is still engaged. When when you look at and you just mentioned when you look at the regulators.

Right. I mean, I your responses with the North American mark. But Autoliv is truly global player. If we maybe take the discussion on regulations, at least from what you see, or maybe how all the we've also seasoned a little bit on average, which regions or which countries do you feel are the most know we're looking again, this this package is about reimagining mobility.

So which which governments which regulatory bodies. In what regions or countries do you feel are the most proactive in in setting themselves up or setting a framework from a regulatory perspective to truly be able to adapt faster than others? Level four and again, assuming it's going to happen, level three, level five autonomy from a safety perspective, not necessarily from an automotive perspective of driving autonomously, but also again, from a from a safety perspective. Well, typically the Euro Ncap, the new car assessment program, they have a roadmap.

when it comes to, I would say safety, on the passive side, but as well as autonomous. and what some interesting things that stick out is cognitive detection. They have as a milestone in 2032. So how do you, passively sense whether someone is is engaged with the driving task mentally?

and that's quite interesting. I have the privilege of working with, a global research team, where we are researching, you know, interior sensing, occupant monitoring, human machine interface. to to be on the, I would say front edge of. Okay.

Number one, we talked about L2. The step would be to first step would be to make these systems safe. And then the second step would be to make them usable for, for all people. So, when it comes to car sharing, maybe in the future or when it comes to rent a car, you want to be able to experience this, the safety benefits.

so I would say, just to answer your question, generally, there's a lot of activities by a lot of the, European countries, that are studying this on the, the front end. and really, we want to make sure that we're able to, I would say, standardize safety critical features and safety critical human, machine interface across all vehicles. You know, let's go. Let's go back to what you mentioned at the beginning, Autoliv the global leader in passive safety systems, right.

Airbags, restraint systems or seat belts. But explain a little bit as, as is today and also as you or you guys are all the we see it going forward. Is it always going to be just an airbag in a seatbelt, or is there much more coming in? Is there much more interaction?

You kind of mentioned with some of our technologies, maybe combining these things and instead of looking at, individual safety blocks or individual features and functions in the car, you look at a much more holistic or system wide approach for passive or also active safety, quite frankly. So give us a little bit of perspective as what you see in Autoliv going forward, what passive safety or safety for for occupants in the vehicles and drivers, obviously. What does this really mean Mike?

Well, we pride ourselves on being the system integrators. So that means more than just the components itself. So our systems engineering is world class. And really we can, simulate in virtually, tests as well as physical test how our products work within the overall vehicle, ecosystem.

But when you look at some of the future trends, right, some of it comes from EV, some of it comes from autonomous. The interior cabin is changing. Obviously there's more space. So, I believe we have airbags that fill larger and larger spaces with the same amount of inflator material, using, different principles, such as the Bernoulli principle.

That's something that, that we can offer. but just to give an an example of, I would say the line that is blurred a little bit between, passive and active safety would be our electric seatbelts. so though in a typical crash sequence, if you hit the point of no return, right, and you encounter a crash, there's typically a pyrotechnic element in the seatbelt called the pre tensioner. So this goes off and it cinches your hips.

The pelvis is the largest bone in your, your body. So this allows you to pivot from your, your hips. And then you can load into the airbag. And the idea is this will give you the, most, stress or the least amount of chest and head deflection, right, to reduce injuries in the case of autonomous vehicles and pre-crash braking, the occupant, will move forward, obviously, as the car is braking and it's the point of no return is encountered.

then the occupant is not ideally positioned. So we have this electric seat belt, which is called, we call it a pre pre tensioning mechatronics integrated that actually has pre pre tensioning. So it takes the occupant and using electric function pulls in towards the back of the seat. So that again you can have the most time and distance to experience the crash.

But what we've also found is many customers using this seat belt, for autonomous, because when you start talking about how do we know that the drivers and so we're giving them, this adaptive cruise control lane keep assist, are they having bad behavior as these types of things? In the case of a driver monitoring system and sensing system in the vehicle, if they notice this, they can use the haptic to pulse across their chest, with the with the seat belt. And research shows this is more effective than visual cues.

And Chinese and these types of things. and we've actually has globally over 50 million of these electric seat belts in the market. And I think this is also something, that we're going to see coming to North America. as we continue to iterate autonomous driving.

Interesting. And Mike, you alluded it a little bit, I think, in, in the earlier part of your answer just now, let's talk about simulation. How much simulation. Because in this podcast, maybe we just for your background, we talk so often about the future technologies and I think one common theme across almost anything we've talked about in this podcast over the last 2 or 3 years already, one way or the other, simulation digital twins over the last six months, plus maybe AI as well, plays a huge role.

Tell me a little bit in something as life and death critical as as passive safety systems that you guys are doing. How much have you guys started to use the power of digital twins, of simulation of of AI to enhance your technologies that you just mentioned and but also further improve them, etc.? Can you share a little bit there? Yeah, absolutely.

So our lab is very focused on safety equity. So right when you look at some of the test criteria right, you're limited in the, the, the dummy sizes and masks. Right that you can test. And one of the, areas we're focused on is absolutely, virtual simulation.

So this allows us to, take more, you know, demographics of humans, different shapes, sizes, you know, pregnant, humans, these types of things and really start to, stimulate, that, really to arrive at, you know, safety, equity. And that's something that we look at is we're looking at the data, of course, and who is experiencing those injuries. What are those systems in the vehicle look like. And then how can we improve, you know, outcomes for the vulnerable?

An AI does play a role, of course. we are certainly, seeing what that can do for us, in our, in our processes, systems, our research, as well as our virtual simulation, when, when you look forward over the next five years. Mike, what what what excites you the most of of potential to use outside of the traditional sensors that have been used and are still used today to deploy an airbag or tension a seatbelt? What additional sensors that.

Oh yeah. So now starting to integrate into vehicle be that driver monitoring, be that forward facing cameras, lidars radars specifically made before for more than just adaptive cruise or or other types of features. What excites you the most? The possibility that allows those components that are now placed on a vehicle to further enhance the products you guys are providing.

Again, from a from a systems perspective, obviously done absolute least. So right now, driver monitoring systems and driver, sensing systems is absolutely paramount. because just to take a step back, when you look at level two and this is a huge nuance. So again, adaptive cruise control, lane keep assist.

If you have a vehicle that's equipped with this, it needs to make sure that you're engaged in the driving task in order to provide this feature. But the flip side of that is if the if the system doesn't work for you, you just get to drive manually. So, you know, every OEM wanted to be in the game and they're allowed to be in the game by releasing these systems. But the systems really don't have to work, right.

Because if they don't work, you drive manually because the driver is in a supervisory mode. and, you know, has the liability to vehicle crashes. Anyways, so what we see along with is this need for interior sensing, because if you know what the driver is doing, then the exterior sensors that that are getting data, what's going on can naturally also be used as input. The future is going to be multimodal between the interior and exterior.

In the car, can behave differently. So you need to know if the driver is told. The outer loop when it comes to the driving task are being performed or, you know, act boarding gates. So some of the sensors we see, I would say 80, 90% plus of the OEMs, they use capacitive hand setting on the steering wheel.

Again, you need this for functional safety approach to be multimodal. So it's not enough to know where your eyes are looking, whether each with the road or looking elsewhere to know if you're ready to take lateral control of the vehicle. That's why the OEMs, use capacitive hand sensing, because you have to know where the driver's hands are. You have to do it in a redundant sort of way in order to be certain.

Right. For the vehicle operation. and we see also that every car, I think within 2 or 3 years, a 2D, RGB infrared camera is pretty much standard. and we see this as it's likely going to become the norm.

So these cameras are typically you have IR radiation irradiating your face, right. Like you're turning on your cell phone. And then these cameras are able to decipher your headphones. they're able to track the back of your eyelids as well as, your face detection.

there are a lot of other, play opportunities and new technologies coming in to occupant sensing. So driver monitoring systems, I personally believe are going to be separate from occupant monitoring systems because the technologies will be different. Right? A driver monitoring system is typically only focused on the driver occupant monitoring system of the entire vehicle cabin.

And we see other interior radar at time of flight. these types of cameras and technologies that can provide, I would say, more of a 3D image, than a 2D camera as the regulation comes when you're, you're talking about, you know, hot car protection, for occupants and animals in the car and these types of things, these interior, sensing solutions, start to make sense. Interesting. Mike, maybe a slightly different question when when you work with OEMs in the U.

S., but also Autoliv globally, what are some of the things you you wish, if you could one, 2 or 3? up to you, how many you want to mention here that that these OEMs would better understand about, the products you guys provide? Is it that, you know, in an only standalone way, they're much less efficient or effective than if it's, again, from a system level, much more integrated instead of, well, this is a safety system.

We just put it in. We have to have it. It's a regulation, right? So be it.

Is it that, hey, you know, paying more for a more advanced system really has tremendous payback in, I don't know, customer loyalty, brand recognition. I don't know what are some of the things that you could say. I wish they meaning the OEMs would understand this better or see this differently. I would just say in general, right.

Autoliv has components that are capable of doing more. It it's not always understood. we take again, a systems engineering approach, which is a functional safety approach by defining requirements early on with OEMs and an OEM, they say being willing to have those technical discussions earlier, that they actually provide great benefit because we really are we're not trying to add cost to the vehicle. We're trying to make the vehicle perform better for autonomous driving and safety applications.

That that's really, the motivation. So I am absolutely, I would say agnostic, to, you know, I just want the best solution. And I want every OEM to be able to have, a system that performs. And then the question becomes, and maybe it's a question for you, Stefan, is, when will, these autonomous systems start to drive buying decisions for consumers?

So when, when you buy your next vehicle and you want this level two system, you know, is that one year out, you know, three years out, five years out when that is going to be a purchase decision. Because of course, we see these OEMs monetizing the vehicle post-purchase with the subscription service. So the idea is you're going to love your autonomous driving suite so much, right, that you'll continue to pay for it after purchase in order user interest in the make. Maybe couple of more questions for you.

One, as you look forward 5 or 10 years as we again reimagine mobility here to get what excites you the most in your space, in the passive safety space that that you look really forward to of eight being developed to a point where it can become a product or be maybe something that's the industry or you guys are developing that you feel in the next 5 or 10 years, OEM will definitely start deploying this at scale, right? What are some of the things you're most excited about? Well, I would say the advancement of the steering wheel.

A steering wheels are going to be needed for some time. Something that I watch very closely is steer by wire. I, I don't necessarily share in the optimism that it's going to be here in the next five years, for a variety of reasons. more so it's, you know, when you look at what's prioritized three powertrain autonomous, you know, you don't need to have a steer by wire for green powertrain, you know, or an autonomous vehicle.

and I think there's a learning curve that comes with this when you start talking about our consumer adoption and acceptance. And it also would, you know, the scalable solution, I would say is that yet determined. And it would add, cost to the vehicle. But what gets me excited, I would say in general, is one thing we're very focused on is the ECU and side of the steering wheel.

So as autonomy advances, the steering wheel rolls and importance more and more so you can see the driver information center is likely going to go to a heads up display. and then, when you start talking about, human machine interface, it's very important for drivers to know the status, the autonomous system. and our research shows us that putting that similar to a side view mirror, putting, lane departure alerts on this, right when the drivers are looking at this, it's very intuitive, using the steering wheel to show the driver what is the status, the autonomous system, is it in a or driving mode?

Is it engaged? Disengage. Because when you start telling the drivers what dynamic, driving tasks are being performed before they know the status of the system, this can drive a little bit confusion, and our research tells us that this improves driver behavior, as well as trust in the autonomous system, because that point will come where, okay, the driver is going to trust the system and no longer necessarily pay as much attention to what tasks are being performed, they're going to want to know the status of the system later.

So that I would say on the steering wheel side excites me, as well as on the seat belt with this electric seat belt, you know, the safety benefit of pre pre type tuning, how haptic can be coupled with the vehicle features, we can put different pulses based on different, you know, situate things in the vehicle even using it as a teaching tool. Right. So if you want to tell the driver don't don't perform that maneuver again, that you just, just performed, it's also, effective for that.

And also the other safety benefit is when you buckle up, it gives you nice little how to make sure that seatbelts being worn properly and also can help you, take off the seat belts and in real in, in, in a, you know, very repeatable way. So these are, I would say, the exciting things that excite me. And believe it or not, I would say another one would be one thing that makes North America unique. is part of the bipartisan infrastructure law.

there's been a lot of research on impairment. So impairment due to blood alcohol content. So we have a ... program that's being funded.

And I just, finished, doing a lot of commenting on advanced knowledge, the proposed rulemaking for midsize. and really, they're looking for ways on how can we prevent, I would say, operation of a vehicle while you're impaired. And the idea isn't that the car will you don't call the cops on you. but the car, will.

obviously not not perform. So I really like this field of study here. Challenges. There's a lot of overlapping behaviors between, impairment and drowsiness and distraction.

And really, what excites me is what ways can we come up with to really identify it as one of those three buckets, when, again, there are so, so much overlap. Interesting. And then that just brought me one more question before my final question. Mike, have you guys ever looked into as as I know some seat manufacturers have and other ones have kind of combining sort of some like some medical measurement.

Right. We have watch smartwatches now to tell me my pulse goes up. Hey you need to take a break. Oh my watch already buzzed here it time to get up to move around.

Have you guys thought about integrating that into seat belts versus usually something that that then somebody else and brings to you and you integrated versus you bringing it out as a standard product that that, Autoliv brings in. So sort of that combination of automotive passive safety with medical, I don't know, detection or measurements. just interested in that. Oh, absolutely.

We have a demo. You can, you can see, but we we, with we spend a great, amount of energy and even resources on R&D. So, we have a smart sense, seat belt. Right.

and it really what it comes down to is you want vital signs on occupants so you can detect their mood and these types of things. And we can use this information. Right. So that's when I could be deployed.

And right now we don't have, I would say a best practice set of sensors in the vehicles. and really a way to monitor, the humans to get all the info that we need. So one thing that we, we have, which is, passive, which passive is preferred. You're not wearing wearable.

These types of things is our smart sense seatbelt. This will allow us to measure respiration, of, of the driver, which is very useful information. Obviously, the other one that you would like to get, but it's more difficult to get passively is heart rate. But then the seatbelt also can tell, tell us the, the approximate, the size of the driver.

So occupant classification as well as the position of the driver and also detect misuse of the seatbelt. So for example, current seatbelts, they're just going to be based on whether they're, you know, buckled or unbuckled. but this can also detect if you buckle up the seatbelt and put it behind you, for example. So this is very, very important for adaptive safety.

Right. So the size and position of the occupants. but also what are some of the vital signs that that we can get. And we really I would say focused on, the seatbelt, a great deal because as you're having handsfree experience putting those sensors on the steering wheel, you know, when it comes to vital signs, even, you know, like pressure monitoring, your, heart rate, if you're not on the connected with the steering wheel, that makes less sense.

But that's again, why the capacitive hand setting is so important. Because you have to know if the driver is ready to take lateral control vehicle. Interesting. All right.

I think we can continue here for for quite a while. Have tons of questions. Super interesting topic for me. But last question, Mike, totally unrelated to, to what we just talked about, but what's going to be the next car for you by and why?

Oh, next car by. Wow. This is, like I said, I am agnostic. but I would say, being deeply rooted, in the, in the active driving assistance, I would say study it.

Right. I get to participate in, a lot of different, industry organizations, the Advanced Vehicle Technology Consortium, such, and I watch the Consumer Reports and the I test reports, so closely, I think I'm going to take the challenge for myself to come up with my. You know, learning from what I learned from them, my own evaluation criteria. And I want to buy the car.

And that, I think, performs the best, you know, when it comes to adaptive cruise control, Lane keep assist and the car that I wear, you will well, you know, allow me to say pay attention to the road. But the reduce the most driver fatigue. And I certainly have some opinions on that of, of you know what that is currently in the market. I'll buy a car probably 2 or 3 years.

But I will say that's that's well, focus. I all right. There you go then. Of course with an auto leaf product in it, that's for sure.

There's a good chance it'll be in there. Yeah. Thank you very much, Mike, for joining us here. Very interesting.

Thank you for your insight and very valuable knowledge. We appreciate it. Thank you.