Why Podcasting Belongs in Your AEC Marketing Plan with Tom Schwab

Speaker A: Welcome to the AEC Marketing for Principals podcast. This show is designed as a conversation between sales and marketing principals to address trends, challenges and best practices that are driving growth for professional service firms. Through our collection of discussions with subject matter experts, industry legends and leaders, we aim to share thoughts and practical tips with our listeners that you can use for growing your AEC brands. Hosted by me, Katie Cash, senior vice president at SmartIgees, the AEC growth consulting firm that's been developing smart business strategies for design and construction firms since 2008. Hi, everyone. Today we're diving into one of what I believe might be the most underutilized but incredibly powerful tool for AEC marketing and sales. And it seems a little self serving to do a podcast on podcasting, but that's what we're going to be talking about today. And it doesn't necessarily mean you have to launch your own show and become, you know, the next big IT thing, but it could be finding a way to elevate your thought leadership on existing shows. And I really just want you to remember that podcasts are about creating content, but they're also about vehicles for outreach. So for my listeners out there that are trying to find a way to balance the doing with the selling and maintaining relationships, I want you to think about podcasting as a particular vehicle that can accomplish more than one thing. And to have this conversation, I sought out the best there is out there, and that is Tom Schwab. So Tom is known in the industry as being the founder and the chief evangelicist about interviews for podcast and podcasting for podcast. And so, Tom, I'm really excited to talk with you and especially since you are an engineer at heart, how you can use subject matter Expertise, particularly in B2B, to build credibility and grow revenue through podcast. So, Tom, thank you for joining me today. I'm excited to dig into this.

Speaker B: Katie, I am thrilled to be here. And like you said, I'm an engineer by degree. Uh, my first job out of college, uh, was running nuclear power plants. Uh, I don't do engineering anymore. But I always say I architect businesses here. And I always go back to first principles, right? And one of those is one, when I talk to ideal clients, ideal prospects, I get business, right? That's a fundamental thing. And now with technology today, it's like, okay, so how can I use technology to talk with them in mass? And not only ideal clients, but the AI that's referring them? So it's going to be a great conversation here.

Speaker A: Well, and I love that kind of soft opening. I mean, when we think about the process of pursuing client accounts and winning projects across the design and construction industry, we all want to have a conversation with a client, right? That's the goal is, oh, you know, can we get a meeting, can we have a conversation? Can we do X, Y and Z? And every time we seem to talk, we're able to close business. People can understand our points of view, people can understand our solutions we might have to their problem. And you know, for most of us out there, people just want to work with you because you become a trusted professional that can help them and make their lives easier. So whether or not you're talking on the stage and giving a very formal technical presentation, you're in a closed door interview scenario, or you're just sitting across the table from someone with a sit down meet and greet, I think you just kind of mentioned it. Podcasting is kind of the next evolution of that and being able to do it at scale. So let's talk a little bit about why podcasting, why now? It's not about trying to be Internet famous, right. But it's really about showcasing your subject matter expertise that you have within the walls of your professional organization and helping your clients get to a solution quicker. And whether that's helping you show up through their AI search or if it's just being someone to help them fill their commuter time where they're feeling like they're investing in their professional development. So, Tom, um, I'd love to take it from your perspective. Why do you think podcasting is such a smart business development and marketing investment?

Speaker B: Uh, we started a decade ago and I thought it was a great thing a decade ago. And you know, this idea of tapping into other people's audiences get that know, like and trust. And when we first started, people would say, what's a podcast? When I give my elevator pitch today, people are listening to podcasts, right? That's how they're getting their information. And it's the early adopters, it's those people that are looking for new ideas, new solutions. And I think sometimes that word podcast is misunderstood, misleading. Right. Podcast refers to an ipod. And most people today that are listening to it don't even remember what an ipod is.

Speaker A: That's so funny. Yeah, I have a store full of the defunct technology. Yes, exactly.

Speaker B: So what's a podcast? Right. If they hear it on their drive to work right through xm, um, radio. Right. Is that a podcast? They could be listening to it there if they're on YouTube. What if they're on social media and they see a 60 second or 90 second clip of you. Is that still a podcast? I don't know, but it's one of these great things where today you can create in the way that's easiest for you. And we're all comfortable having one on one conversations with clients and then you can repurpose it in ways that are easy for other people. And we were talking about before that conversation, right? Nobody likes to just fill out an rfp. It's like, let me talk to them, let me talk to the decision maker. And the problem is that sometimes you can't talk to them and you're talking with someone else and you hope that they repeat it. Well, instead of that, why don't you just get heard on a podcast, maybe even get heard before they send the RFP out so they, you help them sort of feature or frame what they're looking for. And it's a powerful way to be seen as thought leader and actually be, to be a thought leader, people have to know your thoughts, right?

Speaker A: A few things that you mentioned I just want to shed some light on for our, uh, audience. A, uh, podcast can take on lots of different forms, but I think the central piece of it is all of our listeners have a unique point of view, a very specific area of expertise, whether it's around a vertical market such as aviation or healthcare or data centers. And you have an audience of current clients, potential clients, potential project partners, or even potential employees that would benefit from understanding your point of view, what you're all about, how you seek solutions, how you might work, how you've already solved some other problems that might address some questions that they have that are keeping them up at night. So I really love the idea of using one asset, you know, one episode that can fuel so many different things, right? That's, that's like a marketer's ideal goal is I've got this golden asset that's going to go live. I can promote it on social media. I can shoot an email out to, you know, our mailing list that we haven't touched in a little while and remind them, here we are. I can repurpose the conversation into a blog post for those that might want to read. I can repurpose the conversation for an abstract and submit for my subject matter expert to speak at a show. You know, I can use it perpetually into the future as, hey, you know, I just heard that you had this problem. I recently talked to someone just like you on my show. You might want to listen to this. You know, let me Know, if you want an introduction, let me know if you want a tour. You know, there's lots of different ways to leverage it, and I think sometimes we just get too stuck on, Oof, that feels like a lot. And, Tom, I think you and I both share the opinion of, well, let's just try it. Let's start small. Let's see if we can get you Mr. Or, uh, Mrs. M. Subject matter expert, as a guest on an existing show. Let's leverage an existing platform. Let's see if you like the conversation. Maybe let's talk a little bit about the value of guest appearances.

Speaker B: And often people will say, you know, should I be a guest or a host? And I don't think it's an either or same platform. It's like. Well, it's like Uber. Should you be an Uber driver or an Uber passenger? Depends what your goals are, right? So being a host is a great way to nurture your current leads, nurture your current clients, right? But to get out there and get new exposure, get new leads, get new authority, you have to go on other people's stages, right? And so here I am. Katie is known in the AEC marketing world, right? So you did not come to this podcast because it's like, ooh, Tom Schwab. I've always wanted to hear him. No, you're tapping into somebody's existing audience and you're getting that authority that goes with it. So the idea there is that I think guesting is easier, right? Maybe I'm lazy. And it's like Katie's doing all the work here of recording it, editing it, promoting it, and yet the guest gets the majority of the benefit from it. So it's like engineering 101, right? Put less in, get more out. And all of those things that you were talking about before, Katie, with all of the things that you can get from an interview, what I wanted to point out is none of those take more of your time, right? We. We always refer to our clients as the talent, right? So in 45 minutes, you do the interview, and you can get all of this social media out. You can get, uh, things for your sales team to use. You can get things for your website. And I'm an introvert. And I just think, I don't want to be an influencer. I don't want to be cringy out there. I don't need to show everybody what I ate for breakfast and have videos of me throughout the day. But if we've got a conversation, like, if I'm speaking in an Event. I'd love to put that up there and, uh, helpful with other people. Right. I'll take a clip of this and, you know, little bit of Katie, little bit of me, and, uh, we'll put it up there. To me, that's leading with education, not with my ego.

Speaker A: Right. And I think that is what makes an subject matter within AEC so special, is everybody is an expert, everybody has something to say, everybody can be helpful. And we are consultative by nature. You know, lots of us self identify as the introvert. People don't believe me when I say that, but I would much rather, you know, do one of these interviews, one on one, Tom, than have to, quote, unquote, work a room. Right? You know, oof, makes me really nervous. I'm gonna, I'm gonna need definitely to decompress in a hotel room after that before I go back out for round two. But you want me to talk about marketing, something that I know and do every day, something that I'm passionate about, and have a 30 minute conversation with you, Sign me up all day long. And that's kind of the mindset that we want all of our listeners to have is you all could be really, really valuable guests on shows that already exist. And you could start to build your own thought leadership platform as you mature and start to realize, hey, we can make this more of a regular thing. And I'm a marketer, so I love it for all the legs that it gives me as a marketer. Right. All the different ways I can use it. We view it as evergreen content. Lots of ways to point back to it, lots of ways to different to milk it. But I know a lot of our listeners find themselves in the selling or the doing side of the table. And I'd like to maybe pivot just for a minute, Tom, and maybe talk about the value of podcasting for business development. And I think this is where a lot of people miss the mark. You know, a lot of people think, okay, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go on a show that makes total sense. You can, you can leverage that for thought leadership, building up executive visibility, you know, you can use it in sales, so on and so forth. But if you don't own your own show, you're kind of missing out on what I believe to be a really, really great way to open doors and, you know, further relationships. So in aec, where relationship building is really core to winning work, I think a podcast is a great vehicle for that. And so what that really looks like is you have a show, you have an identified audience, and you invite clients, and you invite people that look like your clients to come share their story. And just like you said, tomorrow, you make them the star. You just have a conversation. So I'd love for you, you know, kind of the podcasting guru, talk a little bit about what that looks like. You know, how do you build up the courage as an introvert to, uh, ask your clients to come on your show? And how do you ask strangers without it feeling like, oh, that's cringe. Right?

Speaker B: One of my favorite quotes is, what's ordinary to you is amazing to others. And we all think that, oh, what we do, everybody knows. No, Right. Other people look at it and say, that's amazing. Uh, I would have never understood that. So it's great to share that. And sometimes the conversations we're having on a podcast are the same ones that we would be having if we were just sitting down, having a cup of coffee. And a lot of times you can invite on a client or prospective client and talk to them about the things that they're seeing in the industry, right? And they share their opinion. You share your opinion. It's the same kind of discussion if you would be just talking. And then the other one is to bring on past clients, right? Because if you say something about yourself, it's cringy and it's bragging, right? If they say something about you that you know is a compliment.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Well, it's gotta be the truth, right? And my biggest thing is when people, I'm on a podcast and they'll make a compliment is my team always tells me, could you please not talk over them when they're complimenting you. And interview ballet because you ruin the sound bite. We can never use it. But it's one of those things where we're all having these conversations, right? I don't believe that any of us have a, uh, content creation problem. I think the biggest problem we have is a content capture problem. And then promoting that out there. And when people say, well, what would I talk about on my podcast? That's what I, I talked about for eight years. I was a guest for eight years before our team said we need to have our own podcast. And, uh, the podcast interview marketing show launched about two years ago, and we've got six months of ideas. And all the ideas come from, hey, I was just having a conversation with this client, or I just read this article, uh, this publication, or I was just at this conference, and you're just sharing that information with the people that are out there. And it's interesting the amount of relationships that builds. Right. I think audio is such a personal medium, Right. Because people hear you, they hear your voice, they get to know you, they know the backstory, things that you share, and then they come up to you and start talking to you, and you have no idea who they are. I'll never forget, Katie, I was in an airplane and I was starting to get off the plane, and somebody came up to me and they're like, are you Tom Schwab? And my first thought was, are you a process server? I said, yes. And he's like, oh, I thought so I recognized your voice.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: What other medium would have that? You know, I didn't look like I look in the videos, probably. And if I would have written a blog or a industry piece, they wouldn't have come up and say, I recognized you from your industry piece.

Speaker A: Yeah, I. I remember the first time that happened to me, and I think we all shared the same thought. The first time we hear our own voices. Oh, do I really sound like that? Oh, you know, that's terrible. I'm so sorry. But I remember being at an industry event and someone saying, hey, hey, I know that voice. You're. You're Katie Cash. I listen to your show and I was like, oh, my gosh. Hi. Thank you. I so appreciate you listening. But I do love the power that audio has in today's business landscape. So you mentioned a little bit earlier, hey, maybe the show or the show notes really do help AI behind the scenes, help connect, you know, your prospect with your show or with your. With your information. When so much content these days is being produced by AI and very clearly being produced by AI. I think that honest conversations with an authentic host and some, you know, a guest really do break through some of the noise and people can hear themselves and relate to the stories that are shared. Someone is always going to be advocating for some point of view on the show. Right. Because they're going to align with that. So you kind of get personally invested in the conversations. And you can't really do that, I think, through just a black and white written blog post or newsletter or something like that. So I do really think that a conversation, an audio file, is something that allows people to have more of an emotional, deeper connection with those that are participating in the conversation. Something pretty special. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, today I think all of our BS filters are up, right? When I get an email, it's like, oh, if they say, dear Thomas M M, I know this is a bot, right? That scraped something and immediately we turn that off. If I get a phone call and it sounds like a bot, I'm hanging up. So I think there's something about that authenticity. And it's not only humans are looking for that, but the AI search engines. Uh, there's something called model collapse, where when AI gets trained on AI, it's a downward spiral. It's like a copy of a copy of a copy. And so depending what you look at, anywhere from 50 to 80% of the Internet is created by AI. So the engines are looking for human content, and they largely believe that podcasts are still human content. Right. If it was, if it was your AI avatar and mine, I guarantee you my avatar would be speaking in complete sentences and not dropping the g from every word that ends in ing. Sorry, I'm from Chicago. It's. It's how we talk.

Speaker A: Yeah, my AI might not pick up on all the y' alls that I tend to use, so that is perfectly okay to keep it human. We'll keep it real. But I do want to mention, you know, something that you said. There's lots of different ways to approach topics. You know, if you're having that initial fear of, um, what in the world would I say? There's lots of ways to be inspired. And I think in the world of design and construction, there's some easy, you know, often perceived low hanging fruit discussion starters. One is bring your project team on and your client on to talk about some new project you just did. Maybe it's the first to achieve that certain type of certification, or maybe it's a really exciting revitalization project in a community. Maybe it was, you know, really challenging. Maybe it was, you know, just really fun and unique. And there's a story there. Just come on and talk about the project. Ask your client how it came about. Talk about the designed ideas that made it come through. Talk about the construction challenges. There's all different ways to kind of slice and dice a project story. And the reason I like project stories on certain podcasts is you kind of get to see 360 degree view of the project from the different points of view. You get to celebrate it as a team because we know design and construction is a team sport. And your listeners, nine times out of 10, they have a project in their back pocket that they might be considering you for. So hearing how you solve problems, how you championed ideas, how you didn't back down from a challenge are all good indicators that you might be a good partner for them. And again, it fuels the marketing engine. You can take that conversation, make it into a project portfolio, you know, put it as a QR code on that cut sheet in the proposal to just add some color and flair to the narrative. So I think that's really easy. Something else is, you know, you mentioned, Tom, maybe you heard somebody speak at an industry event and you thought their session was pretty interesting. That's a very easy outreach. Hey, Tom, I was in the audience when you spoke at XYZ conference. I really found it helpful. I'd love for you to, you know, continue the conversation on my show. Would you consider coming on super easy? You know, that person already has it, that content prepared. It's an easy ask for them to say yes. And they get to get more mileage out of that conversation. Why not? And then there's all these other ways to go about it. And you might have other ideas too, Tom, that you want to share with the listeners. Calling all AEC marketers, it is our time to rally. The next generation of leaders in AEC are not going to look like our predecessors. The next AEC marketers are not just going to respond to RFPs. They will shape demand before pursuits ever exist. They'll understand brand, they'll understand visibility and market strategy. And they're going to understand it not from just a standpoint of marketing buzzwords, but truly how it drives revenue for their specific firm. That is the shift that my partner in strategy, Judy Sparks, has laid out in her latest edition of the Modern AEC Marketer. Her new book is a guide for marketers, seller doers and principals alike, all who know that the industry is changing and they want to be part of that change. Maybe some of them even want to lead the change. And if you're ready to stop playing it small and start influencing how your firm grows with intention, this book is for you. Go on over to Amazon, you can search for the Modern AEC Marketer and you can get a copy of Judy's new book today. It's available in paperback as well as on Kindle.

Speaker B: Yeah, just what you were talking about there of, uh, telling clients success stories, right? You don't want to just talk about yourself all the time, right? You want to talk about you're evangelizing for your company and your clients. So telling those stories allows people to see them in there. They see your heart, what you've done, how excited you are for that. And guess what? The best way to sell a newspaper in a small town is to put everybody's name in it, right? Go buy a copy and their mom will buy five Copies. It's the same thing. When you're on a podcast interview. Right. Or doing a podcast, you better know that that client is going to share that with all of their network because they're thrilled to be there. Right. And so why wouldn' you do that? And as you talked about it, that QR code, I love that idea. I've always seen that our best clients are the ones that do the most with the interview. So, you know, before you talk with the client, say they're doing a hospital. Oh, I was just on a podcast. Uh, we talked about the unique challenges with hospitals, and I thought that might be interesting to you. Before we talk, send them the link to that. Now they are listening to 45 minutes of you talking about a project before they even talk to you or putting it in with the proposal. There's other people that aren't doing that, and it's those little things that stand out and that are memorable to people.

Speaker A: Yeah, the little things just kind of, we call it sometimes, you know, connecting the dots and providing some connective tissue that just kind of strengthen your story, strengthen your connection, strengthen your ability to be known and trusted. Right. That's what we're all trying to achieve in providing professional services. We've talked, I feel like, a little bit throughout this conversation, Tom, about just the snowball effect of a singular episode and how it drives all this different, you know, marketing ideas and kind of can fuel your marketing and communication funnel. But what we haven't talked about is really what goes into, let's be be honest, like, what goes into preparing to be a guest on a show? What goes into maybe launching and hosting your own show, and how do you budget for time for that, and what does that really look like?

Speaker B: And I think if you've never been a guest, you may want to look at doing that before you host your own show. Right. One of our clients said she can't imagine getting married and planning a wedding if she'd never been in the bridal party. Right. And so from her standpoint, it's like there's difference than standing out in this or, uh, sitting in the seats and actually being part of it. So she, before she launched her own show, she was a guest on other people's show so she could practice and see what the other people did. Right. It's sort of seen behind the curtains. So I think guesting is a great way to start, and it's also easy because it's not a big commitment. Right. Most podcasts that die, die within the first 10 episodes. And it's sad, but, uh, they get going and then it gets tough. Life gets in the way. So being a guest, you don't have to show up every Tuesday and put an episode out and you can start to get your point of view out there. You can get comfortable before you go out on your own podcast. And I always tell people so much of the preparation can make, make everything downstream easier. So most, most podcast hosts are not trained journalists, so don't give them a, uh, 15 page media kit, right? They'll look at it in their phone and say no. Or they'll pick out the most arcane things and give you a weird interview. So boil it down into one sheet, right? This is my picture, this is the company logo. Here's all our, uh, social media, a little bit of bio, a third person rip and read introduction so that they can introduce you the right way. And then give them five to seven topics that you'd really like to talk about, right? Um, yeah, drill down, make it easy for them to say yes and then give you a great interview. And after you talk about the topic a couple of times, take another one out. So if you get all the foundational work right, all you've got to really be is be the guest and just show up and perform, right? So figure about an hour per each interview and I highly recommend people get a team around you that has done it before, right? You're smart, you're hardworking, but we had a client that said, I just want to be Sinatra. And I said, what's that mean? And he's like, he realized the best use of his time was performing, right? So you don't need another hobby of trying to reach out to hosts or, um, put your own podcast together. So often we'll call that phase zero of guesting. Right. On other people's podcasts. And then when you start your own. I believe that if you're going to do something, commit to doing it for a year. I've seen so many people that come out and will tell people I've got a new podcast and a quarter later somebody asks them, how's your podcast? And it becomes an embarrassment. So make sure you think through it for that first six months. Have a partner that will help you with the production so that you can have the fun of it, not trying to edit it and figure out why it didn't post on a Saturday night.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Because that's not the best use of your time. And other thing is pick your guests, pick people that you like to talk to that energized you. I'm very, very selective on who we have have on our show. Right. If I wouldn't sit down and have a cup of coffee or a beer with them, I probably won't sit down and have a podcast with them. Them. And the other thing is when I talk, it energizes me, right. I'm a, uh, introvert and I just know that if I have a great one on one conversation, it's better than a, a pot of coffee. So I will schedule those around when I have strategic time so I can be fully present in the conversation. And as far as the repurposing and all the rest of that, yeah, you could do it. I could do it, but there's better other things that we could be doing. This is such rich content. You can have somebody else do that and then come back and go, wow, in 45 minutes I got all of this out of it. Let's do it again.

Speaker A: Yeah, Uh, I think that's really, really great advice that, hey, start with a guest. Be a guest appearance. There are a lot of really great shows out there, a lot of great shows that are in the design and construction industry that are put on by professional associations or some of the most trusted industry publications that are great, you know, goals to be guest on. And then maybe you've got some project partners, maybe some of your clients even have a show that you could be part of. And I think it's really helpful, you know, Tom, like, hey, get your marketing team to pitch you just like they would do any type of media pitching, right? So that one pager make, uh, it really easy for them to understand what you could talk about, help make it easy for them to say yes to you. You might have to reach out a few times. You know, you might have to pitch yourself and then follow up and maybe have a, a pre conversation and help them realize why you would be really good at it. But the marketing team can do that. I believe all the AEC marketers can do that. And I think when you guest, you do get to see behind the scenes, you get to see behind the curtain and you can live that experience as a guest and you can decide what worked really well for you that you might want to implement when you launch your own. It might be the cadence of communication that comes out, you know, to your guests, getting ready for it. It might be the level of detail that's provided about the show, you know, the listeners, what to expect in the conversation that you're going to have. You might feel like you got too much or not enough, or you didn't know what the next steps were when you guessed. And you get to experience it from the other show producers. You can pick up on what you really appreciate and kind of build your own process or sop. We're talking to lots of engineers, so I imag lots of spreadsheets here, um, documenting things. And then I think you're absolutely right too, Tom. When you commit to doing a show, you want to say, okay, we're going to do this. We're going to invest the time and the resources in it. We're going to run it for 12 months. We're going to. We're not going to miss an episode. We're going to run continuously. The first year we came out with the Smarties podcast, like six years ago, we were really ambitious and we tried to have one every week. I will tell new podcasters, that's too much. Don't do what I did. I think once a month is more achievable in our space. If you have someone that is, you know, a principal or billable time, an hour a month for them to commit to having a conversation is very reasonable for them to fit in to their work schedule and you not mess up utilization rates. If you could do more than that, great. Maybe you try for every three weeks, and then maybe you add some episodes. And I know when we're working with clients that are launching a new show, we want to have at least three good shows in the bank before we go live, because it gives you a little bit of a buffer to kind of breathe and reset and before you need to start having other conversations. Because what I found my first few years of podcasting before I really had an audience was it takes time to coordinate schedules because you have your dream 25 list. Like, hey, these are people I really want to talk to. They know me. We've got something we can share. You know, it's easy for them to say yes to me, but they're busy, they've got their day jobs, and so sometimes they're traveling when I'm available or, you know, I'm not available when they are. And so it took a little bit of, uh, back and forth. And yeah, I really wanted to air that episode with Tom in December, but we couldn't meet until January, so now it's gotta go in February, which means I need to backfill fill. So giving ourselves a little bit of buffer and having some episodes, quote, unquote, canned, like already in production, ready to roll, let me breathe a lot as a Host and not feel like I just needed filler. Because you don't want to water down your show with just filler episodes to hit a deadline. You want to remember why you set out to do the show, who you're trying to talk to, and what kind of value you want to have. And sure, I think you can do show fillers and do a, uh, quote unquote solo cast and share your own point of view. Or maybe you just have a fellow partner from your own organization and you talk about something really unique and special, maybe trending in the industry. But ultimately, the advice that we always give our clients that are launching a podcast is it needs to help kind of check multiple boxes. We want it for business development, sales, outreach. So we want to have guests on that are in a position to hire or recommend you because that just adds, you know, more fuel in your tank. We want you to have thoughtful conversations that will fuel marketing that's going to help you position for your next win. So it can't just be about you. Like you mentioned, Tom, nobody wants to listen to you. Just talk about yourself. And you want it to be helpful and topical. So any advice for those listeners about how do they build an editorial calendar? How do they build, you know, that initial guest outreach plan so they feel successful and so that they can kind of ease into this idea of becoming their own media company with the show?

Speaker B: Uh, thank you for pointing out the editorial calendar because so many times people think that podcasting is just like radio or television, right? We record today, everybody here it. We do a report every year. It's called the State of Podcast Interviews. And last year it, uh, was pretty consistent from year to year. The meantime between when you reach out to a host or a guest, when it gets scheduled, recorded, edited and aired is 83 days, right? Anybody that can get you on a show today and it goes live tomorrow probably hasn't thought about it, right? Think about it more like a magazine, right? If I get invited to be on, um, Men. Men's Health, right? That's. That's a joke. If you're watching the video, it's not for next week's episode, right? It's probably for one that's a quarter out, maybe even six months out. So think about a quarter out. So always think about what is happening, what could be timely for that, right? It could be budgets at the end of the year. It could be a conference that you're going to, whatever that calendar is. So you start really thinking about it as, uh, part of your overall marketing and, uh, an editorial calendar. Not just, oh, what am I going to do this week? And that's where it becomes powerful too. The other thing that I think a lot of people struggle with is, well, I can't repurpose the content because I already used it, right? Somebody, uh, already heard it. You can take this interview and promote it for a long, long time. Right? Because not everybody is going to hear it on day one. And if I hear it again in a year, chances are I'm not going to remember all of that. The same thing with the social media, right? Just because you put a post up the day the podcast went live doesn't mean you shouldn't be promoting that a month from now, two months from now. Because guess what? Every time you tag the host or the guest, it's going to pop up in their feed and they're going to think of you and share it with their community. Uh, it really. I don't know if it's evergreen, right? But it's probably like a can of soup. It's good for three to five years.

Speaker A: Pretty good. I mean, it's pretty good. I know we've got some episodes in the Smarter G's archive. We, Judy and I, the founder of Smarter G's and I did one on like the art of the pitch. Because part of procurement and design and construction, often the decision is made through a formal interview. That's part of their procurement process. And there is not an architect, engineer, contractor that I have ever met that is comfortable with public speaking out of the gate. Right. Nobody went to school for engineering to realize that, hey, you got to go sell and you got to go go pitch work in order to do the fancy building systems engineering. So every year around strategic procurement seasons, we'll repote that, you know, via email in our newsletter. We'll have it on a slide when we're speaking at conferences. Just as a reminder that it's an asset there that still has usable shelf life because it goes over, you know, tips and tricks that are still applicable today, even though we recorded it six years ago. Go. And it is by and large our, uh, most listened to episode every year. Every year. It is. And it, it's true. You know, it's got a lot of legs there. Now I've got other clients where, you know, maybe someone on their show was the head of a particular organization and they leverage that to get into lookalike audiences. And so they're using it in their sales outreach and they'll post it on social and they'll use it in one to one email outreach and they're leveraging it to get other people to come on the show, but also just to get a meeting. Like, hey, we recently talked with so and so at this university. They had a similar problem. Thought you might find this of interest. And as long as that conversation is still relevant to your audience, even if they may have heard of it, it doesn't hurt to remind them. And you don't know, maybe, maybe they saw the social media post, but they were at their kids soccer game and couldn't listen to it and they need to be reminded that it's still there. So don't hesitate to do that. I still like when different shows will do. You know, it's kind of like the Spotify rap at the end of the year. It tells you what all you listen to. Well, what shows were, you know, your most successful guests that you're shine the spotlight on them, make them feel pretty, make them feel special again and just make it it relevant again.

Speaker B: And uh, you mentioned a keynote, right? I've done keynotes before. They are a whole lot of work, right. To get up and talk for 45 minutes, you got to do slides, practice, all the rest of that. Whereas this is a discussion, right? I know what we're talking about as we come in here, right. It's my passion, it's what I talk about every day. So it's not like preparing for a keynote. And so that makes it very much easier. And it's really the same conversations you're having day in and day out with clients and your team.

Speaker A: I think that's great. Now, my name's Katie Cash. I have the running joke and nickname of Cold Hard Cash because somehow I always manage to talk about money. So I want to talk a little bit about podcast ROI and what the investment really looks like. So we talked about it a little bit from an investment of time standpoint. You know, if you're going to be a guest, best give yourself an hour. You know, be present, don't multitask, respect the host that you're going on the show for. If you're going to host your own show, it's going to be a little bit more, but not too much more in terms of time. But for the finance team or you know, sometimes we joke and call them the math team that listens. What are some core metrics that they can monitor to know whether or not their podcast is successful? And hey, we did this pilot program for 12 months. Months. Do we re up? Does the season two come back? You know, are they Going again, what are some of those metrics, Tom, that you suggest that they watch?

Speaker B: Well, I don't think it's just the math team. I think it's the, uh, the principal, the. The owner. Right. This is marketing. If it doesn't make dollars, it doesn't make sense. And so many times people come to us and the first question I always ask is, why do you want to do podcast interviews? Because if it's just I want to be famous or I just want to talk to people, that's called a hobby. Right. And that's going to get really old really quick, and you're not going to continue to doing that. So start with the end in mind. What are the metrics you're looking for? Is it lead generation? Right, so it takes about three months for the podcast to come out typically. Right. So start tracking it. After that, ask people, how did they find out about you?

Speaker A: You.

Speaker B: That's m. A great way to do it. Another one is social media engagement and followers.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You should see that start to go up as you've got this great content. You know, hint, all of the social media platforms love video, and it always helps if you have two people in the video. So it's not just me talking to the camera, it's Katie asking me a question and then me responding it. So that's another way to look at it. Now, um, this is a try before you buy. Chances are nobody's going to ask you to speak an event if they've never heard you speak. But I have gotten so many invitations to speak and even keynotes where they're like, I heard you speak about this on the podcast. Can we fly you out to California to talk about this? Ah, sure. That's a great way to do it. And I think, think the one that has gotten so powerful this last year, pretty much since the summer of 2024, is the referrals from AI. Right. There's a lot of studies out there. There's one out of Cornell that said traffic from AI converts nine times better than from SEO. And the idea is that the search engines are indexing all of this content. So as people start to go in and have these conversations, who. Who is the large language models promoting? And it was interesting, this study from Cornell. The first question, the prompt was 29 words. So the idea that I'm going to rank for commercial architect Kalamazoo, that's not what they're searching for. They've got this long question, and then they were on there for six minutes before they actually went to the site. So they kept asking questions and some firms bubbled up, other ones, you know, were eliminated. But if there's not the content there, you never get that. And I think it's interesting, uh, there was a marketer, uh, that I was talking to and he said something that blew me away. He said there's three things. He believes that the power of computing is trending towards zero. It's like, okay, I believe that he said, long term, the power of energy is trending to zero. And I'm like, okay, I could see that. Right? Someday. And he said, the third one is that the cost to acquire a customer is trending towards zero. And I was like, explain that one. And he's like, well, if they're finding us through the search engines, uh, the AI and we've got, uh, the information out there, isn't it going to be a whole lot easier for them to go through there and find us as opposed to just, just let's get a list of, you know, 10 firms that we've heard of and send out an RFP. No, let's, let's do the work and figure out which is the one that we trust. And while, you know, I'm an engineer, so I, I'll say that I make decisions based on logic. I know in my heart that it's who I trust. Right. And so many times you look at this project and it's like, huh, huh. After this project, the person is thinking, I'm either going to get promoted or fired. Right? One of the two is going to happen. Now, it's not all my fault, it's not all my doing, but I want to make sure that I've got a partner that I trust because I'm going to be held responsible for the outcome.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think we're, um, probably in the world of design and construction a little bit away from client acquisition costs going to zero. So I think we still have a future proposal, production and interviews.

Speaker B: But I, I agree with you even on energy. We're, we're a long way from fusion, but it's definitely trending toward that way. It should, it should be getting better, not worse.

Speaker A: So in the long term, a few things you mentioned. So everybody is putting in their AI search different questions, right? We're not just saying restaurants near me anymore. We've really started having these question and answer conversations with our chatbots. And those questions that are leading those searchers to your firms are great topics for a podcast conversation. Easy, right? Low hanging fruit ideas. Something that's connecting you there at smartigees. We believe that all firms should really measure every marketing investment against three things. We call them the three Rs. Number one is reputation. Is it helping you elevate your reputation in the industry? And podcast does that really, really well. Whether you're being a guest or you're hosting your own show, you are carving out an area around thought leadership, executive visibility, something like that that you can own, that you can leverage to advance your reputation. Is it advancing relationships? And we think that it does. Right? Whether again, you're a guest on a show, you're building your network, if you are a host and you're able to extend an invitation to clients or project partners, you are enhancing that relationship and you're having time with them. Just like if you were having coffee or having, you know, a round of golf or something. And then bottom line is, are you driving revenue to your firm? And that's one where I think people are like, well, I don't really know how to measure that, that with podcasts, but you mentioned a few really great things. You know, social media engagement. Are you getting new followers? Did you acquire new followers that might have been initial followers and supporters of some of the guests that you had on the show that you brought over and now they're aware of you. Are you able to say that so and so found you because they listened? Because you've got maybe a Q and A in a form fill that someone's filling out. Are you able to, to utilize a show in your sales process where you can point back to and say, hey, we closed this job. But I can also see that they clicked this email where we promoted that show. So that probably influenced their decision making process. So we think podcasts are one of the really great tools, maybe the smartest business development tool you're not using yet, that we are really advocating that our AEC clients consider launching in 2026 or at least putting into their marketing mix. So, Tom, um, as we wrap today, what is one piece of advice you would give our listeners who are unsure of where to start?

Speaker B: I would say go back to first principles like we talked about, right? Go back and say what gets me business, right? And then double down on that. I would go back and say, what is my competitive advantage? How do I work with people and start to go back to those first principles and build the strategy around, uh, your strengths and the things you understand. I learned so much from our clients and I'll never forget one of them came to me and he said, I'm starting to go with Warren Buffett Marketing. And I said, explain that to me. And he said, well, with so many things here, right, Warren Buffett said he wouldn't invest in something unless he understood it. Now, uh, granted, he missed Apple, but he's still one of the richest guys out there. And he said, so it's, if it doesn't make sense to me, I'm not going to do it. And so he said, I don't understand how TikTok is going to help me be seen with that reputation and revenue. So it doesn't make sense to me. But he says, I know with podcasting, when I talk to people and they hear me, it builds the trust. When I talk to people, it builds the business. And he says, I also know that I have expertise, and that's an unfair advantage that I have in the market, so I need to be using that. So from one engineer to another, I'd say go back to first principles and see if it makes sense.

Speaker A: And I have enjoyed talking with you. For any of our listeners that might want to connect with you and continue the conversation, what is the best way for them to reach out to you? And we didn't get a chance to talk about it, but can you tell them a little bit about Interview Valet?

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, Interview Valet is the name of my company. Uh, we've been around for a decade. It's a podcast interview marketing agency. We help thought leaders get heard on podcasts that their ideal clients listen to. We've got a team of 20, all remote, uh, all in the United States. Very proud of my team. And we work with you so that you're the guest and we take care of the rest. And it's all about marketing. Right. Like we said before, if it doesn't make dollars, it doesn't make sense. And you can find out more information if you go back to Interview valet with a V.com AEC and I'll put a copy of my book, podcast Guest profits, how to grow your business with the targeted interview strategy. There, there's an assessment. Uh, will podcast interview marketing work for me? And then finally, if you'd like to talk with me about this. Right. Uh, I believe we're all one conversation away, so just go there. I'll have my calendar, schedule, link all my social media. All that'll be back there@interviewvallet.com forward slash AEC.

Speaker A: Well, Tom, um, thank you so much for the candid conversation today. I think we both share a passion for podcasts and see the real opportunity that they present, both from marketing and content. Generation, as well as sales and business development. So for all the listeners, thank you for staying until the end and join today's podcast on Podcast until next time. Stay smart out there and we'll talk to you soon. AEC Marketing for Principals is presented by smartigies, the AEC growth consulting firm that has been developing smart business strategies for design and construction firms since 2008. The show is hosted by me, Katie Cash, Senior VP at Smartigees. I would love to hear from you. If you have a question, a guest request, or a type of topic request for a future episode, send an email or a voice memo to podcastmartigees.com and if you're looking for past episodes, be sure to visit our podcast page@smartergies.com podcast. We hope you'll tell your friends and colleagues about our show, and be sure to subscribe so you don't miss out on future episodes. Thanks for listening.