Episode 73: Michael Ludden, Head of Marketing at ZeroClick

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to this episode of the 10K Media podcast. Today I have with me Michael Ludden, who is the head of marketing at Zero. Uh, Click. Michael, how are you doing? Doing well.

Speaker A: How about you, Adam?

Speaker B: Feeling pretty good. Uh, it's a good time to be in New York.

Speaker A: Congrats. Yeah, that's on the Knicks.

Speaker B: Depending on when this podcast goes out, not sure how close in proximity it'll be to. We're speaking just a couple days after them clinching the game five and it's good vibes. Um, we, we've known each other for a bit. We, we crossed paths. We were working together when you were leading marketing at Permit, ah, IO, which is uh, still around a permissions company run by or. Or Weiss, um, and co founder, um, and kind of in and out even like you were at me for a little bit. I was on for a little bit. They had a big acquisition by Databricks. Um, so it's always nice to, to kind of talk to marketers on the podcast because, uh, well, for one that's usually who I talk to most inside of companies. Right. I mean PR and marketing obviously have a lot of shared uh, ambitions in a way. Um, and I think everything's changing very quickly and uh, so maybe pick your brain on some things. But maybe we could just start with Zero Click. So that's where you are now. How long has the company been around?

Speaker A: So the company started life a, uh, little over a year ago as a company called the People's Internet uh, experiment and pivoted from that which was an ad blocker, uh, while raising around. We've said we've raised 55 million. That's what we've announced publicly, uh, to zero click, uh, initially an ad platform for AI, but more recently within the past month or so we've released a product called Zero and we really pivoted, focused on this and re thought what zero click is. Zero is a uh, power tool for AI agents like Codex, Quadcode, etc Openclaw that lets them find um, over 14,000 different, I guess you could call them services, uh, to use on the agentic web whenever they get blocked by something a user is requesting them to do that they can't natively do. That's a whole lot that I just put out there. I know it's been a bit of a story to get where we are, but that is also sort of emblematic of the times.

Speaker B: Right. I love that name. What was the original name? The People's Internet.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The People's Internet Experiment.

Speaker B: Uh, some Mixture of a Don DeLillo title and the Rock for some reason. Um, but yeah, exactly. Is there any shared ambition with that original mission or is this a hard pivot?

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Um, yeah, I think that the thinking behind it and the ethos and the sort of passion of our founder remains and persists. I mean PI adblock itself still exists. Uh, it's kind of on maintenance mode. Um, uh, but it has lots and lots of users and basically it allows you to choose which ads you want to see. Um, and so I think the idea is putting, putting and give you a little incentive to do that. Um, I think the idea is putting power back in the hands of uh, end user humans and allowing them to benefit from kind of structural things that exist in the uh, uh, at the time E commerce and I would maybe agentic E commerce now space. So that's maybe the connective tissue there.

Speaker B: So the, the Zero click, the current product. Yeah that. Is that still related to ads and stuff or is that the booster pack stuff?

Speaker A: Uh, so Zero Click is now the OS for selling to agents. So basically if you go to the Zero Click website, Zero Click AI you will find an offering that helps companies figure out how to be able to sell their wares to agents. And that mostly involves helping get them listed, uh, using one of the two main standards that exist today. One of them by Stripe, which is called machine payments protocol MPP and the other by Coinbase, uh, which is X402. Um, and so ZeroClick is now a B2B business that helps companies sell their products to agents effectively or list their products so that agents can transact with them and that they are visible and able to be transacted with by agents, that's the Zero click side.

Speaker B: So if you're a user and you're asking your own agent to do a task. Yeah there's a world where that agent then interfaces with Zero Click to, to do something and you as the end user might not know that that's what happened. Right. So you're really on the forefront here. I mean what is it like trying to sell to agents? It's hard enough solving, selling to people. Uh, is it a better experience? Is it a, a, uh, harder experience?

Speaker A: That's a great question. Before I get there, let me back up. And I'm realizing, I'm not just realizing I'm aware of this, but we are. The story is a bit complex at the moment and we're still figuring out how to tell it most succinctly. But the product that an agent interacts with is called Xero. The platform that lets companies list their products for sale to agents is called Zero Click. Yeah, so Xero is what you as an end user install and the website is 0xyz. This is my main focus right now. It's a very bottoms up plg, uh, prosumer slash developer slash vibe coder coded uh, tool that you install to your agent. And to answer your question, when you install it, let's say you ask your agent to um, produce a form for you from prompt. I need a form that's like a wait list for an upcoming event. Um, instead of kicking you out to any number of different form creators if the capability doesn't exist natively in say Claude code, which is what my go to at the moment. Now, um, you can just sort of prompt to finish line, do that and it'll find a service. Right now there's, I did a little video about this the other day. There's a service that exists that will create the form from your prompt, uh, and post it and also send you an email when anybody responds, all without any pre configuration or setup, all from you just typing the prompt out. Whereas before your agent would give you instructions on how to get that done yourself.

Speaker B: Right. So it's pulling in. Now Claude itself you would assume will get better at knowing what it needs to do to accomplish certain tasks. So do you consider Xero filling the gaps? Like okay, it seems like Claude isn't great at these things natively. And so we'll offer that and make it um, a seamless experience versus Claude bouncing you out and you having to go to another platform to do it.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean that's essentially it filling in the gaps. The messaging that we have right now on the 0xyz website is unblock your AI. So essentially anytime your AI runs into a blocker where it can't do something, now it can go use 0 to search the, what we're calling the agentic web to find any number of different services. Right now there's 14,000. The other week there were 8,000 indexed. So it's expanding quickly. The Agentic web is. And there will always be core capabilities that agents can do natively. We're obviously not trying to compete with that. We're basically a search and execution tool for agents to let them do stuff that they can't already natively do. And that is always, there's always going to be uh, I think of it kind of like a consent, like a series of circles. So it's like core functionality of any Agent and then stuff that they can't natively do. And this will fill in the gaps to your point with that stuff, whatever that ends up being. If CLAUDE adds a form generation tool natively, then obviously you know, your CLAUDE code will probably use that and then there'll be something else.

Speaker B: Yeah, but so is it ultimately, um, so I assume zero doesn't fill all the gaps, right? It's trying, obviously you get from 8,000 to 14,000, so that means there were 6,000 gaps that it just filled. Um, uh, does, does installing zero as an end user then bias the agent to look there first? Or is that just now another weapon that CLAUDE has at its disposable when it's making decisions?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean typical use case right now is anytime the instructions that the skill and the CLI and the plugin we just released actually a plugin which makes it easier to install, which is nice. Um, that, that it tells your agent to do is like anytime you can't do something, search on zero for it first. Um, and so, but that said, you can always work with your agent to be like always search on zero first. Um, there's a world in the near future in which zero is going to save on token use quite a bit because it can potentially offload really token intensive tasks to third party agents that offer a specific service like generate a song, generate an image, edit a movie, all these things that require a lot of GPU horsepower and token usage for a small microtransaction fee instead of burning through your monthly allotment and having to pay overages or something like that. So there's, there's going to be a lot of different ways that people can use Xero to optimize their workloads, both in terms of expanding functionality and in terms of optimizing token usage and just generally, you know, doing crazy stuff you could never do before.

Speaker B: So the, the, the, the it seems like the process now, even though you're quote unquote selling to agents. I mean, I know what you, I think people listening will understand what you mean by that after you explained how it works. But ultimately it's a human who has to install it at the moment. Right? I mean, do you see a world where in the future Claude, a user trusts something like Claude to be sort of there, let's call it general contractor and whatever that general contractor decides to do, whether it's U0 or not, maybe just be up to them and, and as a marketer is this trippy to think about how do we position ourselves favorably in this agentic universe where agentic decisions are being made.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's all very trippy and I love it. It's a lot of fun. I'm um, I am a marketer. Technically speaking, it is my area of expertise. But I've always been a bit of a bleeding edge technology adopter and builder and little bit of a 0 to 1 entrepreneur type. Anybody who's worked with me will probably tell you that. Um, and so this moment is for many people probably, you know, there's some consternation and certainly there, there is some, but I'm really enjoying it. It's, everything's moving very fast. It is really crazy to think about what even is marketing to agents. Um, but the thing that I keep coming back to is like in my career I've always had to think about optimizing for attention because humans have very limited attention spans. And to a certain extent that same thing is going to be true with agents because agents, the attention span is going to be limited by cost. But it's much more efficient for agents to go ahead and read an entire white paper on something that's really well written in natural language for them and you don't have to worry about like them getting bored and clicking on social media instead of reading the next sentence. And so there's a bit of freedom as a marketer in terms of like, you know, I got a really good score on my SAT back in the day in terms of writing. And it's kind of nice to think that if, you know, you just write something that makes the case really well, even if it's long form, you're more likely to be adopted by an agent. Now is that strictly true in a vacuum? No, There's a lot of other considerations, but that's one of them. So that's maybe one of my thoughts.

Speaker B: Yeah, well that makes sense. And I've also seen a strange, I don't know if it's strange, uh, I don't know why I use that word. But just an interesting, let's say return to plg. Um, um, yeah, yeah, because I mean, I remember it wasn't that long ago where PLG was like the move and that's what all the cool kids were doing. And then, I don't know, for the past, let's say five years, maybe longer, it's been a really enterprise y top down in my world like where just yeah, PLG ultimately wasn't generating enough revenue for companies. And yeah, it has always been for most startups anyway, uh, that you know, 20% of your customers generate 80% of your revenue or whatever. And so you are tempted to keep just closing big deals because even if they take six months or a year to procure that one deal will, will generate as much revenue as you know. But I've also seen a lot of people lose their edge by giving up on plg. Right. Like they were, I don't want to name name names, but I have names in mind. But they were taking on incumbents through a more disruptive PLG thing. But for whatever reason that wasn't fast enough or not general, they pivot to being this platform. But now you're genuinely competing with a datadog, let's say, which is a platform that's been around a long time and like, good luck trying to compete platform for platform in that context. And now with AI and single individuals being able to do more and move faster, uh, I'm seeing a lot of companies return to how do we give value to the individual? Um, how do we make this a simpler signup process with a quicker aha moment? And so where does Xero and I guess zero click as a company fit into that? Is it totally bottom up? Is it both? And, and as a marketer, how do you think about these things?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean the, the zero click side is much more B2B. Um, but even that is it's a very broadly applicable offering from a SaaS product perspective. Lots of different sizes of companies and probably scaling companies in earlier stage. Companies would be more fast to adopt this, are going to need to be able to offer their products for transactional use by agents and that'll be a great boon to a lot of businesses. And so it is not technically PLG that side of the business today, um, the zero side is very bottoms up. We're very focused on the bottoms up. We think there's, I mean it is really difficult to even talk about as you can tell from the beginning of this podcast, because it's so bleeding edge and new and it is so broadly applicable that it's like we need to figure out who are our core ICPs. I mean it's almost like the early days of Google search where it's like, who is Google searched for? Uh, everyone. And that's, you know, that's not an answer that's satisfactory. And if you're, you work in pr, marketing, go to market or just generally run a business, you can't build a business on, like I'm building this product for everyone. Right. And yet sometimes it is true. And so I think that you know, a tool that lets agents search for other tools, uh, on offer that can help that agent augment its own capabilities is there's definitely already a lot of similar sounding offerings with their own spins on this kind of thing. I think so I think it's going to be bottoms up. But also there's a distribution partner angle where if you have an offering that is a SaaS product and that offering involves you selling your agent to end users, maybe you want to have all those agents equipped with zero in a small wallet so that they can do more and you can have an advantage over your competitors in terms of functionality and actually you know, being able to get stuff done. Um, so there is a top down angle where we're selling to companies and having them in, in some form integrate zero into their fleets of agents if that's how you want to think about it. Um, but we're keeping all options on the table. I mean I, in terms of the PLG aspect, I've always been a big fan of plg. I think you just need to understand what it's for. Um, I've been primarily marketing to developers for my entire career and you know, if in the early days of marketing to developers, um, it's all about social uh, proof, other people saying the product's great that you trust and not me as a, as a person writing marketing copy at a company. Right. And then also being able to try the product and see if it works for you. And that's plg. So I think there's sometimes a timeline mismatch between PLG and when companies need to show that they are starting to close bigger deals. And that's where you see companies really pivot hard towards the enterprise and not keep the PLG aspect. And that's definitely a business decision that each company needs to make for themselves. I think the time horizon of when PLG is going to be a money maker for you is typically longer than startups have the ability to have the luxury to think about, you know like two, two to three years before. It's these things are blowing up in a significant uh, enterprise contracts and then there's also breakage, right? It's like, oh yeah, I tried that product three years ago and it was great and it's much more mature now. And now I'm working at, you know, Salesforce and I'm leading a team of 100 engineers and I'm going to buy the enterprise thing. Like it's very hard to link these things up. Um, and so I, yeah, that's a Good point.

Speaker B: I remember. Um, I mean, I mean, look, I work in pr, right. I mean it's, it's like community. There's, it's hard to translate directly in those ways. But um, I think the companies that do it well, I mean, one of the best. When I was at DigitalOcean in 2012 and they were just giving away, uh, they called them droplets, but they say five dollar servers and letting people spin it up and try it and there's no way to track, like, wait, out of all those free credits we gave away, how many of them moved on to more serious projects? And then remember, decorating you can. But um, obviously there's a desire to metricify what you can. And I've had clients ask me recently and I honestly, it's, it's outside of my expertise, but they've actually found with, I guess AEO is, is one of the acronyms. Are you, are you getting the aeo?

Speaker A: Oh, uh, yeah. Or geo, Whatever.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, whatever you call it. Right. And then maybe you can talk about this a little bit and what you're seeing. But I just had a client ask me like, how can we improve? Like, you know, if someone's on chat, GPT or whatever and they're searching for something in our universe, how do we get the prompt to recommend us? And I said, I have no idea. But as they've gotten more attention in the media and whatever, all the efforts, um, they've seen results like, you know, they test.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: For themselves and like, so it, I, I don't really know how, how it works behind the scenes, but is, is this, do you have thoughts on this type of marketing and.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Optimize for it.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean this is the current state of, uh, optimizing for agents. We're actually building for the next state where it's the agent that needs to, um, be seeing the AEO as opposed to a human kind of thing.

Speaker B: Right, right.

Speaker A: But in terms of AEO that exists today. Yeah, it's basically, I mean we're, we're working with, uh, a few, There's a lot of companies that'll solve this for you. You can do it in house. It's easier than it's ever been, uh, to do that yourself. But you know, there's a lot of companies that are building expertise around measurably making this happen for you. I won't name them here. Some of them have had huge raises recently. Um, and then there's some other smaller scrappy ones. We happen to be working with one of those. And Basically what it is, is turn out tons and tons of content that is optimized for agents and base that content on, um, queries that, or questions that people ask agents and then get that content to be seen as authoritative and ingested by agents and just by brute force and uh, sheer volume of content that is relevant and answers the question in a way that drives people to your site. You can get these LLMs to sometimes answer questions and have a larger, that mention you and have a larger and larger share of that as you go. Yeah, that's, that's because right now it's the Wild west in its early days. Right now you can kind of brute force it, which is great. But that's going to quickly change. You know, there's quickly going to be like orders of magnitude where, you know, bigger companies that are really on their AEO game are just going to win because they just have more dollars to throw at it. And that's a problem, you know, that's something that's not a solved problem, I don't think.

Speaker B: But I imagine that's got to be. The same thing's got to be true for, you know, when you Google search for things, companies pay to become on the top of certain searches and assume

Speaker A: it's a. Yeah, it is, it is. And, and the best, yeah, the best thing to do in that case is just have a very seoable term and a very unique value proposition that catches on and it all comes, it, the cycle continues. Right. Then it comes back to like creative marketing. How do you break through the noise? The best marketers that succeed are going to be able to help companies make, uh, market inroads where just sort of running ads and doing SEO or AO is not really going to move the needle.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And um, yeah, there's a bunch of ways to think about that. There's, there's first principles that, you know, probably continue to apply. But I, but I actually think when agents are involved, some of that might, might change where agents are the intended audience.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And a user is just saying, hey, do the thing and spend only a small amount of money and show me the result.

Speaker B: But how they've done it's sort of up, uh, to you as the agent.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And we're going to be increasingly, I mean, I already am. You probably are too. Uh, I'd be actually curious to know if this is true for you, but I'm increasingly trusting agents to do more and more of that and just show me the output and if it's satisfactory. That's great.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I mean, I honestly hadn't given it too much thought in terms of how agents are actually doing what they're doing and interesting. I actually talked about this with the CTO of uh, it's a big company, um, I think. Oh, Circle CI. Oh yeah. A long time. And you know, obviously AI is disrupting everything, including the traditional software development pipelines and um, CICD pipelines that Circle CI has always been interested in. And he said something interesting which rhymes with what you said, which is like at the end of the day a uh, user wants a thing and they want a result. And yes, that's the whole thing. The challenge is in this AI world where things are happening agentically in a way, the more invisible you are, the better you did the thing. Right. So if, if m, it just goes and quickly gets a good result. And at least part of the reason they got the good result was because of zero. But from the user perspective it all just felt like magic. I mean that's a great experience. But yeah, uh, the flip side of that is it then isn't reinforced in the end user's face that it was zero that you had to use to do the thing and so the product becomes invisible. Now maybe it's fine if the product becomes invisible in a world where the human isn't making the decision to buy zero anyway. That's an agentic decision, then that makes sense. But in the current state of things, you still need humans to install zero, uh, or one humans to install zero. So obviously there's a give and take between how invisible actually you want to be process.

Speaker A: Right, yeah, there is. And a couple of points of clarification there. You're absolutely right. Um, a user will know that zero was used when the agent ends up spending money. Ah, currently. So if there's a small price because the agent generated a meme, posted it at a website, sent an email and then mailed you a postcard of that meme then that used a number of services that are listed on Xero and it's going to say it's cost 34 cents or whatever.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Uh, and when, when you see that from your agent and you have Xero installed, you kind of put two and two together. But you're right, it is a little invisible. That is something we're, we're grappling with. Um, and we're thinking about ways to make sure people know they're getting value from not just zero, but like the services that are invoked that uh, we're not putting out these 14,000 services, these are sometimes really big companies that are just exposing their own API endpoints as MPP or X402, you guys bet all

Speaker B: of them by the way, or how does it work?

Speaker A: That uh, was the other thing I was going to get to. Great point. That's exactly what Xero is. Xero is essentially metadata around existing services that are listed, uh, using Coinbase's X402 or Stripes MPP. And we'll add more as they come and become standardized. We're very payment Rails agnostic. And so what does an Agent do with 14,000 services? 5,000 of them are image generation. Well, turns out agents are really good at obviously executing these services, but then also giving us information about how that went, how long did it take, uh, what did the end user say the quality was, uh, how much did it cost, does it fail very often, etc. Etc. And you know, the cream rises to the top. That's kind of the whole point. We want to help agents make better decisions about what they're purchasing. Um, and so we don't index anything that hasn't been successfully run at least once that's publicly available data. And so, and we're always pruning stuff that's, you know, not allowable. Let's just say like for example there was an SMS service. There are SMS services, um, they're technically illegal to use unless you have permission to just SMS random numbers. And so we don't index them. That would be a huge unlock. There's other stuff like email sending services without ever signing up for anything and without ever configuring anything that you can use. They're legally allowed. Um, but that's pretty much a lot of what Xero is, is helpful metadata about how other agents and therefore their end users have found the experience of using this particular service. Um, that will m. Stack rank it. Yeah.

Speaker B: What, what is the process of downloading Xero right now for a user or like installing it?

Speaker A: What's the flow? Right now there's a single prompt you can, you can use to get it to install. You tell your agent, let's see here, use curl, uh with zero xyz, install MD and then install zero and set up zero for me. You'd literally say that to your agent. You can copy the prompt right from our website and it'll install it. We'll also give new users $5 and a wallet to play around with because a lot of these things are microtransaction based and they cost a very tiny bit of money. Um, and we want people to Be able to play with it and see that magic moment right away. There's a lot of like founder and go to market based use cases that we think are interesting where not having to set up a bunch of development environments ahead of time to get something done is a huge unlock in terms of time and effort. So yeah, there's uh, like social media scraping tools that require zero configuration and don't have to know who you are. You can just say hey, scrape LinkedIn for this thing or Twitter for that thing. Um, these are third party things. I'm sure that there's a game of cat and mouse going on with the providers there, but there's a lot of little unlocks like that that when you chain them together can just let you get a lot of stuff done from prompt without setting things up. So we want people to be able to actually do some, some of this, you know, without having to use their own money first.

Speaker B: Yeah, that makes sense. What, what is the um, I mean the five bucks is basically like a trial period. It sounds like basically. Um, basically what? What?

Speaker A: Uh,

Speaker B: trying to think what. Because I had a question right before you just started, uh, we started talking about pricing. $5. Get going. But what is the pricing model? Just in, in general, is it based on usage, is it subscription, is it.

Speaker A: No, it's, it's per API, per I guess service calls. They're not APIs actually. Um, so you know, if you like on the website there's, you can, there's like a browse button. You can choose like see all services and you can see how much they cost. Like there's a website hosting thing that'll just generate you a published HTML link, uh, that you can just share and you could put something on it like a microsite for free and all it does is give you a little uh, like bit of marketing at the bottom. Then there's like a bunch of, there's a, there's music generation tools. I'm looking at one right now that's half a cent to generate a full AI song.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: There's all sorts of crazy stuff on here. Um, and it's usually kind of unbelievably cheap. And it's not us that sets the prices, it's the vendor. This is a whole bunch of different companies I'm saying.

Speaker B: But you guys aren't charging for zero. Like no, there's a marketplace and things just cost what they cost in that marketplace.

Speaker A: Yeah, we're not taking, we're not taking a cut at the moment either. Um, so we're not actually monetizing the Xero sort of agentic search tool itself. Um, if vendors work with us to uh, set up their services for sale to agents, we do have a uh, business model on that side a little bit. But basically we're building a two sided marketplace. Right. In a sense.

Speaker B: So this zero this. That's interesting. So it's, it's basically like a catalog of vetted services for an agent to um, theoretically perform tasks more efficiently and, and better and maybe even tasks that it would struggle to, to like here's

Speaker A: an example, classic example. Because CLAUDE still doesn't generate, it doesn't have an image generation tool. You can generate images with claude, but it's like programmatically like, you know what I mean? Um, it doesn't have like a Gemini so you can actually use Gemini or Veo from OpenAI or Grok Imagine with Claude so you can generate an image and it can pick the best service for that generation. Uh, Grok Imagine seems to have the least, what should I say, concerns about licensing. So you know, even if you were to use Google to generate images, there's a lot of stuff you can't do with it. Uh, you know somebody came up to me, I was giving a demo one time and they uh, were like my daughter loves Elsa and Mickey Mouse. But I can never get any tool to generate any images of them together because they're Disney properties. And I just typed in a prompt into my CLAUDE code and it just generated like Elsa on a rocket ship with Mickey Mouse waving at her, uh, right there from prompt without doing anything from Claude.

Speaker B: Right. Do you see a world where the somehow these major providers like CLAUDE or whatever, um, actually don't allow you to pierce their walls. Right. And they go no, you can't just use zero to leverage our services. If you're within claude, if you want to use our services you have to be within our ecosystem natively, you know,

Speaker A: stirring maybe one or two. Um, but I think there's like, there's a lot of momentum Behind MPP and X402 and essentially what you'd have to say is like you can't let your agents use agentic payment solutions. Uh, and that's basically self crippling.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And so if your competitor does it, they have an advantage over you. So we think there's going to be, they're going to. Now are they going to have their own branded solutions for these things?

Speaker B: Probably. Right?

Speaker A: Probably inevitably. So, um, but I think we have a unique advantage being not verticalized like that. You can Install it to any, literally any AI agent you want. Um, there will always be open claw type of solutions as well. There will always be local models that are better and better. Gemma, Minimax, Deepseek, these guys are going to keep. And there's going to be. Especially with what happened with Fable, it seems like there's going to be more and more of a push towards local models that can't just be shut off by someone else. Um, and those local models are definitely going to be able to use machine payment protocol or export to transact if that's what their user wants. So there will always be models that will allow more and more for transactions on the web. And all we're doing is indexing standards that exist, those standards might change and uh, providing helpful metadata about how to stack rank those for agents. And so yeah it could happen but I think it's not in the model provider's interest and even if it is in someone's interest, they want to be like the privacy focused one. There will be others or the sort of like wall to garden one. Maybe it's not privacy focused. I doubt that it is. Um, there will be others that'll be more open.

Speaker B: More open. Yeah. Is there any sort of open source piece of this or right now it's

Speaker A: not, that's not the method, not zero itself.

Speaker B: Um,

Speaker A: it's a good thought. Yeah. I mean we're having some discussions internally about what if anything that we're building internally makes sense to open source and just make available externally.

Speaker B: Um, like even that stack ranking that's happening um, amongst the catalog of services. I mean so it seems like we were talking earlier the. There is a place where someone can

Speaker A: see the services that 0 yeah xero xyz browse.

Speaker B: So 0 xyz just to be clarified, that's the website. So that's where people. That's the website if they're interested in checking this out. So maybe that's a good thing to land the plane on. Here is uh, where can people check it out? And um, it seems like you already described earlier it's a simple prompt to get started but any, anything that, that someone who's interested would need to know this would be the, the time to tell them.

Speaker A: I suppose. Yeah. Well thank you. Um, yeah, I would say everyone should I. Everyone should try zero at least once and see if it's. It's interesting. I mean if it's. There's really no, no downside. There's a lot of potential upside and especially if you are more on the vibe coder to prosumer to just like, I need to get stuff done angle of things. It kind of gives superpowers to any agent that has it, uh, in the case that you're asking the agent to do something it normally couldn't do. And the key piece is there's no configuration and no setup to use these services. That's one of the key interesting things about it. Um, but it's super wild. It's super early. We need feedback. So I would appreciate anybody who wants to try it and write me an angry note. Um, that's the best kind of feedback.

Speaker B: So the founder has been around, right? He's. He's. Yeah, he's done some things in the past. Oh, yeah?

Speaker A: Not his first rodeo. Not at all. Sold a company to PayPal for $4 billion. Yeah, he's a super, like, AI visionary, AI pilled guy. Um, he's got, like, you know, dozens of open claws working at home for him all the time. Always on the forefront of thinking about this kind of thing. And he says he's never been excited about, like, a tech, a technological shift as much as this. And so I think he's got a pretty good read on where things are heading and that what we're building will ultimately prove really prescient and valuable. So we'll see.

Speaker B: All right, man, well, good luck. Always good talking to you. And, uh, people could check it out. 0 Ah, XYZ. Thanks for taking the time.

Speaker A: Thanks a bunch, Adam.

Speaker B: Bye.