Ep 42 - Working Moms & Entrepreneurship with Erin Erenberg, Totum Women

Speaker A: Hello.

Speaker B: Welcome back to another episode of Working Wife. Happy Life. This is episode number 42. I'm Bethany Baines. Uh, as I record this, it is literally my final day with the company Google, a place I have worked for the past almost 18 years of my life. It all started with an application. After reading that they gave away free ice cream and led to one of the most incredible professional journeys that I feel so privileged to have had from my earliest days, and the uncertainty of a relatively large startup in 2004, all the boondoggles and shenanigans that you've read about. Although I was lovingly referred to as one of the old marrieds at the time, at a ripe age of 27amongst my youthful colleagues, the company brought me back to my home in New York City, introduced me to lifelong friends, and supported me when I brought my beautiful babies into this world. There were ups and downs, as there are with any relationship, but it was ultimately and will forever be in my mind as an absolute privilege. I will share with this community that my decision to leave was not an easy one to make. I had been looking for a career shift for the past several years and many times found myself kind of pigeonholed into my area of expertise. I had such a desire for something new, like an unknown experience, and in some cases, I found myself with a flavor of that, with my responsibilities. But it wasn't as fulfilling and as drastic as I needed it to be. So after much searching and exploring, both inside Google and outside, I. I found what I truly believe to be the best match for my experiences and likely most importantly, my drive for the future. I'll share publicly once it's official, uh, next month, but for now, I want to leave you with something that I found through this process, uh, and that I shared with the breadwinning women's community at, uh, Google. You know, life is.

Speaker C: It's funny.

Speaker B: And I honestly believe in the powers of the universe. And when I began looking for something new, everyone was asking me what it was that I wanted.

Speaker C: And I.

Speaker B: At first, I didn't have a great answer. But after having to answer that several more times, the goals started to crystallize. I knew not only what I wanted to do, but the type of people I wanted to do it with. And equally important, I knew what I didn't want to do and the type of people I didn't want to do it with. And I stayed committed to this vision with each process and each conversation. And I was adamant that it had to meet my goals. And. And sometimes when you're so clear on something. It takes a lot of time. There's a lot of, you know, misses and a lot of near hits. And I mean, it takes time in terms of time passing and in times of dedication, in terms of dedication, like towards your goals. And throughout that time, I experienced a lot of different emotions. I was confident in my target goals. I would lack confidence in my ability to find it. I would worry if I really wanted such a big life change, or worry that some opportunities wouldn't be significant enough. And there were lots of days with zero progress on any of the fronts in between. But the lesson here is that throughout all that time and all those emotions, I not only had the time to dedicate to the breadwinning women's community at Google, but also to build this podcast and to really anchor and apply my creativity and my passion and my drive to this community. And so looking back now, as hindsight is 2020 or so I've heard, I can see that it all happened for a reason. And the timing in the end is actually perfect. Now is the opportunity perfect. Only time will tell, but I wouldn't put that level of expectations on it either. In some ways it may be equally as valuable to actually get what you want, to determine whether or not it is what you wanted after all. But I'm endlessly optimistic and very, very excited. So more to come on that. But for now, let's focus on today's guest and likely one of the last episodes for a bit as I focus on my new opportunity. And what better one than when an incredible woman, someone I consider a dear and immediate friend, Erin Ehrenberg. Erin is a mom of three, an attorney, a, uh, serial business builder, fund advisor, and the founder and CEO of Totem Women, a community powered platform to help women feel supported in motherhood. Totem means whole in Latin and is born of Erin's experience as a new mother who wanted more information and resources for herself as a whole woman, not just a mother. As topical as you can imagine. In this conversation we discussed the burnout of moms and those in their communities, the importance of knowing where you're happiest and most fulfilled from a career perspective, giving yourself permission to step away or to pivot, finding your financial dignity and the importance of creating your personal narrative and value prop. What are you uniquely able to do? This is so, so very important. We also discussed the amazing Brene Brown's concept of shame growing in silence, which is so near and dear to my heart, on the concept of breadwinning women and ironically Ice cream.

Speaker C: Yep.

Speaker B: It always comes back to ice cream. You can connect with Erin and the Totem community on all social channels at Totem Women or on their site, totemwomen.com enjoy my conversation with Erin.

Speaker C: Awesome. Erin, I am m so excited to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for making time to be with me this morning, Bethany.

Speaker A: It was a treat to be asked, and I'm so glad to be with you. It's always great to talk with you.

Speaker C: So we are here today with Erin Ehrenberg, who is the founder of Totem Women. Uh, you have had a very illustrious professional career as a lawyer. You are a mom of three. You're running this incredible community for working mothers. Uh, and you have a cookie line. You have all sorts of things. Please describe. Like, how would you describe yourself in a short bio? Because there's so much to dig into.

Speaker A: Well, thank you. Yes, short bios are hard, but, uh, I've done a lot of different things. I think I get bored easily, and I like to feel like I'll be in one place as long as I can give and grow. And so I've done everything from be an executive director of a nonprofit to work, um, as an intellectual property lawyer at a firm and then assisting music clients. I've also worked in tech. I helped two tech startups go from a handful of founders through series A and series B, and then I even worked as an agent at wme, which was just a total head trip, but a good time. And, uh, really, Totem. I, uh, launched totem in 2018, uh, right as we had our third child. And it was really born of my experience when I first became a mother years before that, in 2012, where I felt that there had been so much attention paid to me when I was pregnant and even a lot of attention, um, on how I was going to give birth. How do women give birth? Are you going to sign up for a C section? Do you want an epidural? Uh, do you want unmedicated childbirth? Just so much conversation and attention. And then there was a lot. It's interesting to me because people say there's no manual for a baby, but there actually are. I mean, you are assigned a pediatrician, or you choose one. And there are plenty of books, uh, depending on the way you want to raise your child and what you believe about modern medicine that can assist you. But there was truly, especially at the time in 2012, nothing for that transition from maiden to motherhood from, you know, and I was 34 at the time, so I Was very well acquainted with myself. I had a strong self concept, um, but I met an entirely new version of myself when I met our baby. Um, and I liked it. I liked so many of the characteristics and qualities that I encountered. I was softer, both in the way I communicated and the way I held my body. Um, I was, uh, slower. You know, there's a lot of conversation in our culture about slowing down. I just did that without thinking. And I felt that I was doing just miraculous things by being. And I've never had that sense. Uh, I've always been somebody who. A little bit of an overachiever and works probably harder than I need to. I've never had that sense of being able to rest on my laurels. But then when I became a mother, I just felt like, wow, I can't believe that this baby came from me. And now I'm doing everything in the world just to hold him and nurse him and be with him. Um, it felt wonderful. So I had a lot of trouble squaring that with what it meant to be a 34 year old ambitious woman and a feminist. And at the time, lean in was everywhere. I mean, the book, the circles, the, uh, you know, just so much about, you know, women. You can be leaders by leaning in at work. And I felt like, well, what does it mean if I want to lean out? What if I want to be at home for a while or hit pause? And I didn't really even give myself the space to fully consider what that would look like or set a budget around it or anything because I was just so overwhelmed. So that was really just the, uh, ambition pillar, I think, with. With totem. M. Totem means whole in Latin. And I chose that word because I believe that every woman can choose what whole means to her and then create a life that's based on her conception of that. And so I found that being a whole woman in modern motherhood meant examining this revolution of my mind, body, ambition and relationships. All of those things had changed and they've never, you know, kind of bounced back. That's really not a thing. And so I wanted to create a, uh, resource that truly the heart of what totem is, is to help women know that they're not alone in the shifts that they experience. And so I started with New Motherhood. I found it to be incredibly under resourced. But then as I got into totem and running totem, you know, the beauty of it being a, uh, solopreneur endeavor is that I can adapt based on what I'm hearing from Our community. And so many women were saying, God, I love what you're doing, but I have a teenager who hates me right now, and I'm feeling really lonely, and this is hard for me. And can you have a conversation about that, too? And so my heart is really for women and helping them through that. That motherhood transition. And totem has gone from being a little bit more product and event focused, uh, in the beginning to really community focused now. So, you know, we, as you mentioned, we created a cookie. And that was really the first. The manifestation of the first problem I was able to solve for myself as a mother. My breast milk fell through the floor when I did go back to work just a few weeks after having the baby, locked in meetings. Yeah. And I really wanted something I could eat quickly, that tasted good, that would help me make more milk. I made this cookie recipe. Everybody loved it. So I ended up bringing it to market, which was no small feat, and people loved it. But, um, you know, we. We've shifted, so I.

Speaker C: So there's so much in there I love. You are so, uh, driven by your personal philosophies, and I love that because you're not trying to contort yourself into what does it mean to be a successful woman? What does it mean to be a good mother? Quote unquote. You know, you're not driven by these shoulds. It seems like you've been able to actually evolve in a way that stayed very true to what is valuable and meaningful for you. You said, I stayed in one place as long as I can. Uh, give and grow. I mean, that is such an amazing kind of mantra to check yourself in those moments.

Speaker A: Um, thank you.

Speaker C: And I just feel like everything that you just shared about how you had such a wonderful introduction to motherhood and such a sense of purpose and going from a human, you know, doing to a human being,

Speaker B: that is.

Speaker C: It's kind of not common. Um, at least I say that from a perspective. I really struggled. And I felt like, even when you said, you know, these pillars of your whole identity, whether it's mind, body, ambition, relationship, having those things, I was always trying to bounce back. That first year of being a mom, I was always trying to get myself back versus saying, oh, this isn't a back, this is a forward.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: I see that now. And I joke. My son is now 14. I joke all the time. Like, yeah, that first year I was, you know, you turned out okay, but that was a little iffy. You know, I just. I didn't have, um. I didn't have enough understanding of, uh, how my life would change as a woman. Right. Like you're saying, there's a lot about motherhood, there's a lot about that. But when you've spent these first 30 or so years of your life as this individual, there's not a lot about, like, how you reconcile. And like you said, sometimes those messages that are in market feel a little toxic of, like, you can do it all. You can have all of these things. You can lean in, you can, uh,

Speaker B: be a great mom, have all the

Speaker C: right snacks, have all the, you know. Oh, and could you lose all the baby weight before you come back to work? And then could you disappear in a room and, you know, pump your breasts for a while? Just come back to the meeting like nothing happened? You know, it's.

Speaker A: It's a lot.

Speaker C: And so I would love if you could share. I know we have a lot of listeners who are early on this journey. Was, um, your kind of everyday experience in that positive way, or were there moments where you had to pull yourself back from a different understanding? Yeah.

Speaker A: Well, thank you for bringing that up, because for a while, I didn't talk about feeling, uh, like I was, um, having this kind of natural experience as a new mother, because I was hearing the opposite from a lot of women. And I think one great thing that's happened is that our culture has shifted a lot to talk about postpartum depression and anxiety and mood, uh, challenges. And there were people, even in my baby group. And now I was in LA at the time, which is really progressive. And, uh, I think a lot of the language and, um, you know, the. The talk that was happening there, um, you know, people were talking about having postpartum depression. There was a girl in my baby group, uh, who struggled with it, and we all really supported her. My experience was I actually felt shame around enjoying it. Yeah, I was afraid to admit to people, wait, I really like this. And I don't. You know, my CEO at the time was calling me on a very regular basis, even in those early days, saying, hey, great news. We want to promote you to chief Revenue Officer. And I was sitting there. I remember being in this robe, rocking our baby and just bawling after that call. And in some ways, you know, I've looked back at it a lot, and I've thought was that this sort of, like, postpartum euphoria I had and the difference between, you know, just the chasm between how I felt about my work and who I was before motherhood versus how I felt, was that a sort of Kind of mood disorder. And I don't think so fully. I think it's just what you're talking about. I think it's that there was not, there weren't even. There wasn't even vocabulary to talk about the shift and the experience and um, enough of, uh, even a place to go to have these conversations with people. You know, I couldn't tell our CEO will like, hang on a second, buddy, because I'm nursing my baby and I'm having a really good time doing that. I felt like career wise, there was no coming back from that. Right. So, you know, I, um. It's not that every day was wonderful. I can remember very distinctly it was one day I was sitting in my backyard just crying for hours about a comment that was said to me about, by my husband's grandma. Said something kind of thoughtless. Uh, and I, it just really hit me. And so I think, I know for all of us there's a massive hormone dump. Right. We have all these hormones inside and we dump them really abruptly right after we have babies. And so a lot of that is chemical. But I, I more felt like I, I felt everything during that time.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And the feeling.

Speaker C: Sensitive. Yeah, yeah. Not in a bad way. Just, I mean like, very aware. Yeah.

Speaker A: And even, um, you know, like on my skin. I felt everything very strongly at that time. Um, and the other thing that, the moment that was really hard, just being really candid is my husband. It was almost like he couldn't even hear me saying these things because they were so different from the woman that he knew the whole time that we had been dating. I mean, I said to him, I don't think I want to go back to work. I think I want to be a full time mom. And I would like us to sit down and talk about a budget for how that works. And I mean, he truly didn't hear me. It did not register to the point that I went to visit my best friend, uh, who lived in Toronto, Canada. I took our two month old there to visit her. And um, while I was gone, uh, my husband like found a nanny for me to go back to work. And so I remember getting in the car, yeah, I remember getting in the car at the airport with him and he said, I have great news. I think I found our nanny and all that's left to do is for, for you to interview her. So, so he had like set up a care.com account, found her, interviewed her, and I just lost it. I mean, you want to talk about,

Speaker C: like, this is so funny. I Mean, this is like the upside down, right? It's like almost like, ah, like people would love if their husband even knew what the fuck care.com was, right? And then you're on the other side going like, hold up, bud. Like, that's actually the old Aaron.

Speaker A: Fascinating. Yeah, it was really interesting. And it's funny because at the time, back to the just feeling everything and not really filtering. I don't have much of a filter. I just, like, lost it on him. I was crying and just miserable, and you're not hearing anything I'm saying, da, da. But now, with some altitude on that time in our lives, I realized that he had heard so much more of me. Talking about, uh, how much I loved my career, how committed I was to my work and this. I mean, I was only two months in to being a mother. And I think he just, if he heard me at all, I think he felt like, oh, this is just a phase, but I can help her by, like, keeping the train on the track here.

Speaker C: Yeah, um, it was, it's just, it's so. To me, first of all, I love so much about this and I love how articulate you are about, like, even, like, the ebbs and flows of your experiences as a woman, your experiences as a wife, your relationship with your partner. Um, I love the phrase of getting some altitude on our relationship when you zoom out and you're like, oh, yeah, that was a really interesting time moment. Um, it's. It's so fascinating because like, you said to him, he's really there, like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this for her because she's in this other space or other moment right now, which is amazingly supportive. Whereas it doesn't sound like for you, it was as much of a, um, kind of, I don't want to say identity crisis, because that sounds super heavy because the thing. But really this full shift of I am this new person that I did not know I was going to become 100%.

Speaker A: It was an identity crisis. It really was. And there's, you know, there's a lot kind, um, of on social media talking about how words matter and language matters. And I've always been a big believer in that. I love words. And I was so grateful when the word matrescence was birthed, I think, by Dr. Alexandra Sacks. Have you heard of this? She gave a TED Talk. Can you.

Speaker C: For me?

Speaker A: Yeah. It's M A T R E S C E N C E. And it finds its root in, you know, um, maternal and then, uh, like adolescence. So that big shift, that massive transition that we have in our lives. So matrescence really gives a name to what women experience when they become mothers. And when there's a name for something in our culture, you know, it helps us know that we're not crazy. I mean, I really thought I was kind of losing it to your point about, you know, were there any, you know, kind of dark moments? It was dark for me because I didn't know how to square how much I was enjoying being this sort of like Betty Crocker style mom. Like I just really wanted to be with our baby, baby and make meals and be in that space for a while. I did not know how to square that with everything that I'd known of myself before. And I think had that term been around and there been more, um, I think I keep using the word conversation, but there's just such value in talking about these things. And I think a lot about the um, Brene Brown quote where she talks about, um, you know, shame grows in silence, but it can't live with, uh, you know, understanding and vulnerability and discussion. And so there was so much shame in that time because I did keep a lot of this silent. Um, and I was then finding out later that a lot of my friends had their own versions of this. And that really lit a fire in my belly of like, hell no, I'm not. I'm going to do my part to help women who have just done something so sacred and so heroic. I am going to do my part to help them feel that they are honored and seen and understood in that experience so that the very last thing that they feel is shame.

Speaker C: Mhm. That's so meaningful. And I feel like it's uh. I love the term and I feel like what you're describing too is this way. It's almost like shedding your skin and like you're kind of finding this new way of being in this new way, you know, way of, of, of your future and your identity and, and for a lot of women I was the opposite. Where I was like, when hell can I get back to work? I mean like I wasn't, you know, excited to drop them off. And it was emotional, all those things as well. But I knew very quickly that being a working mother was exactly what I wanted to do. And that was a huge reconciliation for me as well because I always thought that I would want to be a full time stay at home mom. I always thought that, you know, I thought it wasn't going to fit the way that it did and that I really struggled with. Right. It's like, am I a bad mom because of these things? Um, so I think it's really interesting to create that space, and I kind of want to dig into, you know, what you've created with your totem women community. You know, it's all born from this experience that you've had and bringing to light conversations that are meaningful, that are significant, where people feel like they can share, they can be vulnerable, they can feel supported, they don't have to be ashamed. Um, very much aligned with the work that I do for breadwinning women. Um, I would love to hear, kind of, how did you go from kind of basking in that glow of motherhood to realizing there was actually a way for you to marry your previous ambition as a career woman into this new space that kind of brought these pieces together?

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I just want to tell you really quickly that I wished I had your experience, because that's what I always thought I would have. I always thought I would be that mom, you know, the Beyonce thing, like, strong enough to bear the children, then get back to business. I thought that's who I would be. And when friends of mine would say that to me, I would feel jealous. Honestly. Bethany. Like, I can say that honestly now, but I felt so jealous. Like, I wish I had that feeling that I want to go back, because I just don't. And so who am I? It was a full identity crisis. And then I didn't talk about my feelings because I didn't. I so badly didn't want to contribute to any other woman feeling bad about herself because she didn't have this, like, hyper bonded experience of new motherhood. Because I know so many women who are so hard on them that that doesn't happen. And so talking about that, that experience, I felt like it was such a, um, privilege that I had that experience. I felt, um. I just didn't want to talk about it. And I think part of it was because I had the support of my mom. My mom came and stayed in our home for a month, no questions asked. And, like, you know, she didn't do night duties or anything like that. It was more. She was there for me. And I remember sending her downstairs to take a look at my vagina and tell me what the heck was going on. I had support, and I think that was a huge part of it. So fast forwarding to your question about totem and the conversations and how did I get to this point of launching totem? It took a long time. It took five years. First Off. I have always known that I would be happiest as of full on entrepreneur. And the way that I've approached everything I've done in my past has been really entrepreneurial. Even the way I practice law. I lasted in a firm for exactly eight months. I was at this like, fancy firm that like, everybody wanted to get that job out of law school. And I got it. And eight months later I was typing up a letter of resignation and delivering it to my partner and waltzing right out of there. And then I started taking on music clients on my own. Um, you know, and then when I ran a nonprofit, it was super entrepreneurial. Um, and so, and that I was working with these small businesses. So I knew that I wanted to make a shift from helping people build businesses to actually building one myself. And one of the things that kept me from doing it was that I was just petrified about failure. Um, I had left a lot of places, but it was always because somebody was recruiting me out. So the place where I was working right after I had George, who's our first, was called Indiegogo. They're the first crowdfunding company. Yeah. So proud to say I helped build in build Indiegogo. Um, and I was there and I loved it. And again, like, I had built a lot there, um, and I decided to walk away from it. I did go back there. I stayed about six more months after having George and I was just really miserable. I was in. Right in that identity crisis. So I decided going to just walk away. And while I was being a full time mom, WME approached me and they really wanted to understand the crowdfunding space. And rather than hiring a consultant, they wanted to hire somebody who had actually been there and helped build a company, um, in that space. So that's when I went into wme. But the very cool thing was I negotiated a deal with them that gave me fantastic boundaries. I was in the office Tuesday through Thursday. I had a cap on the hours. They were great about paying me, uh, you know, my value, and I really enjoyed it. And you know what, Friday through Monday I was with family and I didn't think about it at all. I went and I gave them everything I had Tuesday through Thursday and then it was cut. So, uh, that was really great. Um, and then after, then after that I went to a company called Omaze that puts together experiences, uh, with celebrities and big brands, and then, uh, leverages those for charity. So I was working in business development again, which I've done a lot in my career. And the whole Time, though, I just had this feeling of, like, I have to start a business to support modern mothers. Like, I know I have to do that. I just have to get the guts up to really, number one, kind of stand on my own two feet. I wasn't as afraid of that. What I was afraid of, um, circling back was I had not been afraid to walk away from great positions because it was always one on the other side.

Speaker C: Land to. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. But I thought, if I start this, I'm not quitting. Like, I won't quit on myself. If I'm gonna make a promise to myself, and I'm gonna make a promise to support modern mothers, what if I do feel like I can't give and grow? Like, what happens? Then? I'm kind of. I didn't allow myself permission to. To step away. And so I had actually worked with an executive coach who I love, and she helped me really get clear on what was holding me back and what I needed to move forward. And so I did it. And it was really, you know, she uses the phrase intentional action, and it was about, you know, setting this intention, being really clear on what I wanted to create and why I wanted to create it, and then every day, just moving forward a little bit. A little bit. And so that's really the way that I built totem. And the thing that I've realized that I didn't know then that I would love all kind of hopeful entrepreneurs to know is that if you're in this and you don't have an investor, the beauty of it is that you can pivot. And, you know, I know that word's overused a lot, but I've been able to look at, number one, what is the customer telling me? What is the culture telling me? What am I learning about myself and my abilities and my experience and how I can leverage that, um, toward the purpose that I want to serve, and I can adjust. And so where we are now in 2020, I was just really, um, in this place of having my own experience, as we all were. Right. I mean, I believe that we're all still part of a. Of collective trauma. We've all been through a collective trauma. So having that personal experience, but also feeling so much empathy for what other women were going, going through. And there's been so much ink on that. And I think even to a certain point, at a certain point, all of these articles talking about, you know, X number of million women, like, grows every day, who've been pushed out of the workforce and how hard it's been and the primal scream, um, you know, on the New York Times, it's been helpful. I hope, I hope that we continue to remember how we as a culture treated mothers and make real change. But in the moment, I found it really, really painful. I, uh, um, just felt a lot for mothers. Um, and I think, you know, conflated with my own personal experience. I just, the heat of it made me think really quickly, what can I do to help in this situation? And so the problem, as I identified it, one of the problems was isolation. Another was trauma. Um, another. I would hear women say, I'm so uninspired. I, you know, I really, I feel like I lack accountability. Um, I haven't been edified in so long. That was like kind of later on.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: And so I thought, you know what? One huge gift that I've had in life is to encounter amazing women. I've met so many amazing women, whether they're luminaries or founders of companies or, um, authors or thought leaders or even, you know, subject matter experts in the motherhood space like doulas and doctors. What if I could just drop these women into the homes of mothers? Any mother who wants to come and make a small investment in herself to spend an hour among experts who want to lift her up, shore her up, acknowledge the fact that we're all in this together and then give her some tools to, to move on and move forward and move upward. That's something that I can do right now. And at the moment I was like, oh, it'll be just really easy. I'll just, you know, reach out to all these women. I know. And, you know, behind the scenes of that, there's so much programming and production, but it's been wonderful. So what was created was totem talks. And so back, you know, very early in the pandemic, I want to say even March, maybe April last year, we did our first webinar. I kind of wanted to test it. And I brought in an author, Han oh. Who wrote the first 40 days. And it's a lot about the ancient, uh, traditional Chinese wisdom around new motherhood. And so we likened the pandemic, uh, shelter in place moment to that early postpartum cocoon. And we had a conversation about that with Alexis of Not Safe for Mom Group. And then our mutual friend Eve Rodsky joined me with Daphne Delvoe, who goes by the mom Attorney, to talk about your COVID leave rights and how to enroll other people who might be living in your home and some of the labor so that you could have some Time to work or just do things that remind you about who you are. So it really started that way and has turned into something more programmatic where we have a membership level that promises women every single month. We'll bring in luminaries and thought leaders to be one on one with them. And then we have special, more intimate gatherings. Like we brought in this amazing book called the Push that the author of. It's named Ashley Audrain. And she has like a, uh, She's a huge deal to get it made into a TV series. I imagine it's going to be like the next Big Little Lies. Yeah. And I read this book and was so moved and reached out to Ashley and, um, she did a book club with us just for our members where we got together. We had all read the book and we had this amazing conversation about expectations and fear and motherhood. And so, you know, just really trying to deliver something meaty, something juicy, um, a level of accountability and connection to women while we're going through this experience together.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, I mean, there's so much to what you just shared from your career journey. I just want to highlight when you went over to wme, like, negotiating what works for you in that moment when you're in that position is the best time to do it. It's really the only way to do it. Right. Um, so I love the idea of being really crystal clear of what was going to help to make you feel fulfilled. Um, asking for it and getting it. I love the notion of how you had to encounter that fear because you had always kind of left. It's almost like relationships, like leaving because you know, you got somebody in the wing, hey, that's a better fit. I can get away into the next tree. Exactly. Um, and how you had to kind of confront that fear of not knowing what your soft landing was going to be. Yeah. Um, but knowing that you had enough passion and personal commitment to yourself and to the community that you wanted to build to not let yourself down. And then getting into that position of building that community and realizing that you have to be nimble and malleable and that you are. Actually, what I found is I'm learning more from my community, certainly, than they're learning from me.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: And that's where like, kind of the ownership over the evolution of this type of work. Um, so being able to think about your programming in a very specific lens, being able to react to, uh, you know, certain things based on what's happening, what you're hearing from your members, um, having that flexibility versus the rigidity of what you probably saw in your startup life.

Speaker A: When you have investors or when you're

Speaker C: switching to VCs, you have to stay on a very different course.

Speaker A: So hockey stick growth, quarter over quarter, month over month. Yep.

Speaker C: No. No rest for the wicked. Yeah, it's really, I mean, it's, it's amazing. And I would imagine that, you know, certainly when you talk about, you know, bringing the community along with you through this global moment that we've experienced as moms and finding a way to have conversations that are not just like, there's a time and a space for expression of angst or dysfunction or pain, um, but it's also such an opportunity to bring people up from that space. Um, and so that's what I love about what your programming is looking to do, is how do I help us to not only get through this, but actually get stronger and actually feel more connected when we're all, you know, sitting in our bedrooms right now, you know, I mean, it can feel very, very isolating. Yep. Um, and I would love, you know, one thing that I'll share personally is sometimes I have these moments where, you know, I'll be doing a podcast or I'll be doing an event for the community at Google and I'm just like, what am I doing this for? Right. Like, it's not necessarily self doubt, but it's almost this like, protection thing where it's like, you know, couldn't I just be the woman that just does my job and just, you know, focuses on my family, have to do all this other stuff or, you know, is this having the meaning and impact that I want it to do? Kind of, how do you keep yourself motivated through those moments or how have you kind of ebbed and flowed through that? Those feelings of, you know, where are you finding the emotional value versus the financial value versus that? Like, how do you balance that as a business owner for something that is also so deeply and personally meaningful?

Speaker A: Wow. I relate to every word that you just said and I have so many thoughts on it. I, um, one thing is that the legacy that I come from, you know, on both my parents sides is really of service. My grandpa was, uh, a dairy farmer and so therefore ended up owning a lot of land in our hometown as it became more industrial and from like a, what became a steel mill town. And so as entrepreneurs were hoping to build businesses there, he would say, would you just take this land and you like, do whatever you want with it and I hope all your dreams come true. And then when you're Making plenty of money. You just go ahead and pay me back. And then he ended up having, um, he had like an ice cream store that was part of the dairy that he ran through the farm. And he would say, just keep heaping ice cream on there until you see them smile. Like there was no small, medium, large. Yeah, he was just truly an altruist. Um, and my dad went to, you know, he majored in economics in college and he was an attorney. And he has led a life of service also. He works for public schools now. He represents six different public schools. He was a municipal court judge. My mom taught public school for 37 years and she taught developmentally, um, handicapped children. That was the term, at least at the time when she was there. She's a couple years retired now. And so there's been this legacy of service and it's been incredibly enriching and something that I'm really proud of. I think one thing that I've had to acknowledge and take a really hard look at, as you know, I've looked at my own career, is that I've also inherited a money story that you can serve or you can be financially successful. And m. That is really fraught, especially for me as a woman, because I don't feel that I have the political capital at home or at work if I don't have the financial capital. Uh, I think, you know, just in a world where there's still this persistent wage gap and the biggest wage gap is between mothers and anybody else, you know, I, uh, feel that. And so I have felt really defensive around the work that I do with totem. I mean, I'm part of a group of other women who are all leaders of motherhood communities. And you know, I know that I'm not alone in that. We will work really hard putting together programs or new products or events. And absent investment capital, these things are really hard to make money on. Just putting a fine point on it. And I've again observed that the reasons behind that, and so much of it has to do with the fact that women don't invest in themselves on a deep level. We will do superficial things for ourselves that are really. We call it self care, but really it should be called maintenance, like getting, uh, a manicure, pedicure or an outfit. It's kind of maintenance. And some of it is really just trying to live up to an expectation that society has for us to be good looking and convenient. It's not really looking after our souls and it's not really soul care or inner care. And so A lot of the things that I'm creating and that I see you creating with, uh, your breadwinning mamas community and a lot of the friends that I have who lead motherhood communities, we are trying to help women invest deeply in themselves. And so when I say that, the words that my community anchored me in when I created talks were, um, you know, lack of inspiration. I want accountability. I want to be edified. These are juicy concepts. So I'm not selling, like, five quick ways to stop a tantrum or, you know, I'm not just selling women a life of convenience. I want women to feel fully whole. I want them to have the most robust experience of their lives that they can possibly have. And it's very counterculture to want that as a woman. And so the. What's been very difficult for me is to feel like, you know, I was joking about the hockey stunt growth month over month, quarter after quarter over quarter. But that is the world that I come from. That's. I come from a world of expecting that kind of growth. And so, you know, I treat Totem as a business because it is a business. I've always handled it that way from day one. We have a federal trademark, and we, you know, we're our own llc. It's very much a business. I know some people that have communities, they're just kind of on Instagram. We've always had revenue expectations, and I take it really seriously. And it's very hard, especially coming from the world that I came from where I made solid money for 20 years and didn't question that, so.

Speaker C: And probably didn't work quite as hard.

Speaker A: No, um, it wasn't to your point. It wasn't on a soul level. Right. I mean, I wanted to do well. I've always pushed myself, and I expect excellence, uh, you know, for anything, any kind of output that I have at work. But this is, you know, I'm sure you can hear it in the way that I'm taught. I get fired up like this comes from a deep place in my soul. And so creating these things and. And knowing the what's possible for women who do make an investment in themselves and who do connect with one another and grow that way. I just feel so passionately that I wish women, I wish we'd all enroll ourselves in these kind of experiences. And so some things that I've done to have integrity in that is I invest in other, uh, female communities. You know, I'm part of other people's talking circles and memberships and events because I believe in this. Um. So, yeah, I mean, it's really hard. And I think, you know, with my partner, he is so proud of everything that I've created. And there's sort of a binary thinking around, you're working so hard. And he sees that I will be, um, just exhausted on a really deep level after, you know, working really hard at something with Totem. Um, and he, I think, wants me to feel a little bit more shored up. And so often during the pandemic would suggest, like, just stop. Like, just put it on pause. And we had an especially difficult year. Our oldest son was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. And especially when that happened, you know, I felt a lot of pressure to, uh, completely pause everything that I was doing with Totem, and I actually did the opposite. I. I ran harder into it. I think I found a lot of healing through the community because, to your point, it serves us back right. And I think we. You know, a lot of times, if you look at your customer avatar, it's you. You're like, I'm trying to serve the need that I know is out there. And so where I've come really full circle on this is that I took a hard look at everything at the end of 2020 and said, okay, I do only have so much emotional capital, and I want to have more financial dignity. And I have to look at, you know, speaking in terms of, like, business school terms, like, what is my moat? I. What makes me different from some of the other communities out there? What. What is my special sauce? What are my superpowers, so to speak, so that I can serve in a particular way. Um, that only I can serve. And I really came into this understanding that I can leverage my legal background for advocacy and my understanding of what it is like to work inside a company and to be a leader inside of a company. I mean, I was on the leadership team everywhere I worked. If I wasn't leading the whole thing, like when I was an executive director. And the reason I share that is that I have great empathy for people who are on leadership teams and want to get the most out of everybody that works with them. I have great empathy for the parents who want to give it their all, but they also want to be there for bath time and bedtime. And I have a lens that sees the legal ramifications for companies who aren't paying attention to their duties, to working parents. And so. And on top of that, I have an ear to the ground with this community of 14,000 women, um, Totem. So it just hit me that I have this unique opportunity to make an impact that, yes, I know I've made an impact with Totem. I know there are ripple effects to every life that I'm able to touch. And I truly feel that it's a gift anytime that I can help anybody. But knowing that if I work with companies, I can go in and I can be working with, you know, a steady set of people who really need help, um, both on the leadership time side and the working parent side and together, if they're the same person, um, that is really exciting for me. And, you know, one of the questions that you, uh, had asked me earlier when we were talking over email was around, what do I think is one of the greatest things that's coming from the pandemic? And what's kind of one of my biggest fears. One of the best things that I believe has come from the pandemic is how we're all humanized. You know, the Amy Westervelt quote around we're expected to mother as if we don't work and work as if we don't have kids. That has been shattered because by the way, my toddler is right outside this door watching Blippi, and any moment could come in and like, that's happened to all of us. And we can't pretend that like, somehow magically, when I'm in the office, my children and family and everybody I care for ceases to exist. That myth has been shatter, um, and there's been so much talk about how the pandemic has only revealed the way we've been treating women and mothers for a very long time. There's nothing new. It's just pulled the veil off, I think, wow, there's so much potential there. What I am really afraid of is how we live in a culture of hot takes and quick bites. And I'm really afraid that especially on the corporate side, companies are going to decide to put a band aid on this problem. They will bring in some kind of like, quick little tech solution or they'll change their policies slightly or they're, they'll offer, they'll offer a little something to working parents, hoping that they've kind of checked the box and done their part when truly this is a systemic issue. So I hope to be part of a long lasting solution. I hope to leverage, you know, my legal background and the experience that I've had and to make an impact and do what I can. But I hope this isn't a moment in time. I hope we really do learn to value caregiving and uh, look at the fact that women have been the ones who have stepped into that role. Um, and to start to value that as a culture so that it is not so gender specific and then leads to a, uh, uh, bias that keeps us from promotions and pay and being valued. Right. Like, uh, that's all it is. It's. We need to be valued and that shows up at work many times with flexibility, pay and promotions. And I hope we have a real turnaround.

Speaker C: Yeah. Wow. I mean, I love the way that you just anchored on kind of the individual investment and the way that we need to think about investing in ourselves, you know, both as women, as mothers, you know, and as professionals. Um, you mentioned earlier that you worked with an executive coach. These are exactly the types of things, you know, whether it's joining meaningful, you know, engagements or webinars or book clubs or executive coaching, which actually is really more emotional coaching.

Speaker A: I found it is. Yeah. Isn't it?

Speaker C: Yeah. We won't think twice about, you know, having to go get our hair colored or having a facial now that the masks are coming off, for example. Uh, you know, all this stuff that's 150 bucks, 300 bucks a pop. Yeah. But when it comes to $50 to take this course that I think is actually going to really make me, you know, have ah, some sort of output that's very valuable to me. I'm going to hesitate there. Can I find time? You know, and so I think it's kind of reframing that piece. Um, but then you're also talking about the importance of the systemic piece to make sure that we're rebuilding in a way that is sustainable. Because I think everything's happened so quickly in terms of how we work, how we operate, how we communicate. Like I feel over communicated. Right. It's this constant barrage of pings and texts and messages and notifications and emails and inboxes and like.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: Uh, it's just, it's too much input and output sometimes.

Speaker A: It is, it is.

Speaker C: Um, and so if we try to rebuild in the same, you know, kind of like we were talking about, instead of going forward, go back, if we try to go back to what we were, we're missing such a massive global existential opportunity. Uh, we really are. Thanks. So, you know, it's, it's. The work that you're doing is really important. I think another thing that came out of what you just shared is how crystallized you have been on your personal value prop. And that's another thing that I really encourage women to do the same way when someone asks in an interview, why are you perfect for this job?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Like, what is it about you that is going to be pulling from all your levers of experience? I don't care how far along you are in your career, you have a story to tell and you have a gift to give. What is that piece and how are you going to be most fulfilled in using it? And that is your value prop. And when you get really crystal on that stuff, that just becomes your North Star.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker C: And gets you through the times where

Speaker B: we've both had it.

Speaker C: You wake up in the morning and you're like, I just can't do it today. I know, I know. If you have that crystal like vision, that's what helps you to keep doing it. So.

Speaker A: And it becomes a bit more effortless when you do that too. Uh, you get closer to the flow.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, listen, I am so inspired by everything that you do.

Speaker A: I love the likewise.

Speaker C: Um, for the listeners who are not part of the amazing 14,000 women that you have already engaged with, uh, where can they find you and learn more and engage with some of your amazing programming?

Speaker A: Thank you. You can find us odumwomen. It's T o t u m women, um, odemwomen. Ah, on Instagram. You can find us@ totemwomen.com and I would love for you to join, uh, talk. We have a talk coming up next Friday with, with an ob gyn, a nurse, midwife and a loss, birth and postpartum doula that will support the full spectrum of motherhood, loss, changes in the journey, um, perimenopause, all the stuff we're all going through. So I would love for you to come and join us and be supported and um, just add your voice to the conversation so that we can know how to support you.

Speaker C: That's amazing. That's amazing. Erin, thank you so much for the time today and for all the work that you're doing.

Speaker A: Thank you, Bethany. Likewise. It was a dream.

Speaker B: Don't forget to jump over to Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts and hit the subscribe button and please leave a review to give us direct feedback and also to get the podcast in front of more eyes.

Speaker C: It's very much appreciated.