Diana Nyad on How to Stop Getting in Your Own Way

Speaker A: I've always been a fairly ambitious person. I have many dreams and goals for myself. Some of these I've accomplished, but many seem to just quietly slip away. I tell myself something else is more important or I don't have the time or this one. I really hate to admit I'm not confident I'll succeed. That's why I'm so excited to speak today with a woman who had a very big dream.

Speaker B: Lisa.

Speaker A: I'm Lisa Bennett, the new host of Women Amplified, a podcast from the conferences for women. I'm a longtime journalist and editorial director for the conferences. And I'm thrilled to be hosting this show because I'm insatiably curious about the many ways women find success and fulfillment. First up, the one and only Diana Nyad. At the age of 64, after several unsuccessful attempts, Diana became the first person ever to swim from Cuba to Florida completely unprotected. That's 110 miles, 53 hours of continuous swimming, braving strong currents, venomous jellyfish, and yes, sharks. Today she's 76 and still going so strong. So what can Diana Nyad teach us about staying strong and staying true to our dreams? I can't wait to ask her. I wanted to start by saying that several months ago I was doing this little workout in a hotel gym the night before the Massachusetts Conference for Women and I saw somebody on a stationary bike and I kept looking at her and looking at her and finally I pulled out my phone and I texted my son and I said, I think Diana Nyad is in the gym with me. And he texted back and said, cool. Now he's 22. You're 76. I wonder what it means to you that so many people find you inspiring year after year, regardless of age or gender.

Speaker B: I love when you bring up your son's age, 22, because honestly, I think that's a sweet spot for my story. World is changing rapidly. Many things that your son's generation, they were supposed to have the world as their oyster. And things are an uphill struggle for a lot of 20 somethings. And I'm always surprised, Lisa, that my story, if you think about all the eccentric details that happen out in that big epic ocean that nobody could relate to, you know, almost nobody could relate to all of that. I am a person of a certain age. I did this swim at 64 when I couldn't even do it back when I 28. Nobody else had ever done it. Men, women, young, strong. So it is a story of a 60 something person just refusing to accept the limitations and on the other hand, I hear from people your son's age all the time. They come up to me and they write me. I hear from people, uh, as a matter of fact, younger even than that. But they come up to me to say, I want to make the most of my life. I have dreams, I've got discipline, I've got passion, but I don't know how to get started. I don't know what to do. And my only advice is do anything. Do something. Don't sit around thinking that some white knight is going to ride through on a horse and give you the opportunity. Even if you choose something, you know, let's just say your son this summer, uh, or someone his age decides to. You know, they're not really into carpentry, they don't intend to be a carpenter. But, um, they want to do something fun. And they've always been interested in woodworking. So they take that class, and in that class they meet the exact right person who's pursuing some, you know, tech dream or some other environmental path that they want to get involved in. I think that's what young people like to hear. They like to hear, I don't even know what my dream is. But I'm not sitting around, you know, I'm gonna go out and pursue any direction possible, and that action will lead me to the path of my dreams, you know. So it means a lot to me that young people appreciate my story, and they know just how old I am. I'm probably older than their grandparents. I don't feel a big, um, ageism. I find that once I'm engaged, it doesn't matter what my age is. It's the thoughts, it's the energy, it's living life to its fullest that we all have in common. And, um, so I think I'm at a pretty terrific age myself at 76.

Speaker A: I love that. And, you know, you certainly are the epitome of just get out there and do it right. But it's not easy for a lot of people. And as I anticipated speaking with you today, I thought a lot about big life dreams that people have and all these things that can get in the way, whether it's caretaking of children or elderly parents or making a living or self doubt. Right. And you too, took a break for 30 years before finding your way back in a big way to your dream. Can you speak about that a little bit with an eye toward this? You know, if we've drifted away from it, how do we get back there?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, you're bringing up kind of, uh, a dichotomy. Right. So there's big dreams, you know, and are, uh, we talking about something no one in the world has ever done? Well, how many people are going to be able to aspire to that? Or are we just talking about something that has been deep since your childhood? You've dreamed of writing the great American novel, and who's going to say you can't? And by the way, who's going to judge whether it's the great American novel once you're done or. And that this is the dichotomy. This is the other side of the coin. Take Bonnie, for instance, as my partner. And, um, you know, was the head of the Cuba swim expedition. So for 48 years, we've been living big and doing everything together. Bonnie is not a person, um, who, uh, cares to pursue some big dream. But she values every day taking her dog to the beach at sunrise and allowing him. That joy is a richness in her life. Her garden, going out and tending tenderly to all her little plants and aloe pups and whatever they're called. Um, she is fully engaged in this life of hers. So, you know, she's not necessarily pursuing a big dream that's gonna take all of her potential to get there. But she is not just sitting around allowing this, as Mary Oliver I often quote, as many do, allowing this one wild and precious life. All of us only have one life. I don't care what your religious beliefs are. Your life on this earth is limited to one time span. And if you get to the end of it and say, why? Why did I sit around watching television reruns instead of even going into my own backyard and planting new things and walking down the street and helping a neighbor with their yard, whatever. So I'm not always about chasing the biggest dreams that nobody else will ever touch. I'm about living. Whatever your decision of living a full life is, living it fully and not leaving it with regrets at the end, I think that's more where I come from than the huge achievement that are going to be, you know, win you the Nobel Prize, you know.

Speaker A: Well, that's. That's very reassuring.

Speaker B: Yeah, it is, isn't it?

Speaker A: But let's say that even given that we're bringing the dreams down a little bit or the goals down to real life. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So it seemed to me that one of the first things that would be useful to identify, speaking to you is the role of hard work and reflecting on in my life, the role of excuses and how those Things play out. For instance, this morning I thought, I am speaking with Diana Nyat today. I'm going to get up early, I'm going to go to the local pool, I'm going to swim just because it's fitting and it was cold and it was rainy and I got a cup of coffee and I snuggled up and I read a book instead. But you don't let yourself off the hook.

Speaker B: I think. I don't. A good example is that when I finally reached that beach, 35 years, that dream of swimming Cuba to Florida in the making, literally 35 years. And finally when I stumbled up onto that beach after swimming 53 consecutive hours from Havana, honestly, it's not the moment of like ego triumph that I felt at that time, but what I felt, what flooded me at that moment of touching my feet onto solterra firma solid ground was there wasn't one day in all of those years of training, there wasn't one day that if we were going to slated to do a 14 hour swim as a training swim, that's a tough day. Most marathon swimmers don't ever do a 14 hour swim in their whole careers. So this is just preparing for something, you know, mammoth the swim from Cuba to Florida. But I never said to Bonnie and she never said to me, you know what, Skip today, let's have some fun, let's go to the movies, let's make pancakes for breakfast. Never ever once, and never ever once, if we were doing a 14 hour day and I was coming into the dock after a rough day, rough seas, everybody on the boat is just as fried as I am close to it. And I'm coming into the dock to touch at uh, 13 hours and 58 minutes. Well, isn't that enough? Isn't that the same as 14 hours? No, not to my mind and not to Bonnie's mind. So she would whistle before I touched the dock and say to me, I'm sorry, I mistimed it a little bit, you need two more minutes, swim out and I'll blow the whistle and get an honest 14. So that, that, that um, what would you call it, um, ethic. Doing your best and never looking back. So when I walked up onto that beach finally, that day of the triumph, and that's what I was filled with, that's the person I am. I never look back and say I could have done more, I could have done better. You know, I look back and say I did everything I could do and if I didn't make it, then let's delve into it. And decide what could be done, you know. So you get my drift, you know.

Speaker A: Oh, I do, I do. But for those of us who do not have the Diana Nyad gene, who get the cup of coffee and go back to bed because it's raining out, how do we get some of that from you?

Speaker B: I guess the analysis is, listen, on, uh, a cold rainy day, swimming is kind of a nasty enterprise, you know, in general. So you're allowed, you know, allowed. But if you said at the end of this year, how many days of the year that you are, you've set your schedule, you're going to swim, let's just make it up twice a week, how many of those days do you just crap out? Do you just say, eh, uh, I don't feel like it. So then you decide, it looks like I don't really want to have swimming my regular workout. Or if I do, why am I crashing out so often? You know, one cold day doesn't make a year long worth of crapping out.

Speaker A: Mhm. So you famously said once, you know, I have the courage to fail, right? I'd rather try something and not make it than never find out who I am. And fear of failure is a powerful thing for many of us. I wonder, has it ever caught you? And if so, how did you free yourself?

Speaker B: You know, I, I honestly don't, don't think it has. Um, you know, if I'm putting myself up to. I started playing tennis at age 68, so, you know, I am bound to fail by certain measurements. You know, people say, oh, she's the athlete, look, she's taken up tennis and how good am I ever going to be starting at age 68? But um, it means something to me to do something tough. You know, I just, I go to bed that night thinking, ah, you know, that was a good day. I challenged myself. I did what I said I was going to do. And maybe I don't win all the time. I made a choice to be an athlete, you know, even to this age. It's been the right choice. But do I wish there had been more time to do other things? I was always interested in medicine. Maybe, you know, I shouldn't say I could have or should have been a doctor, but I had leanings in that direction. I decided I was too selfish. I didn't want to go to school for 15, 20 years. I wanted more freedom. But you can't do everything, you know, if you get to your end. Like, let's say I live to 100, you know, and I say, oh, oh, why didn't I do this? Why didn't I start, uh, you know, this or that. And I just have. You just have to make your choices day by day and be good. That they're choices from your heart, from your soul, that they excite your mind. And then you say, I'm living the best life I can and life is short and I've got to make choices, you know.

Speaker A: You're listening to Women Amplified from the conferences for Women. Our in person events in Austin, Boston and Philadelphia draw more than 55,000 people a year. Thousands more gather for our virtual conference every March. And good news, early bird registration is now open for the October 5th Texas Conference for Women in Austin and the Pennsylvania Conference for Women in Philadelphia on November 5th. Learn more and take advantage of limited early bird pricing@conferencesforwomen.org and now back to my conversation with Diana Nyak. That. So I asked two friends before this conversation what they would want to learn from you. One was an athlete and one was not. And they both asked about the same thing. They wanted to learn about mental endurance strategies. You know, when it is really hard, what's going on? You know, you're in there for your 40th hour or whatever the moment is, and those voices are in our heads, right, about how challenging something might be. Um, what are your strategies?

Speaker B: You know, I think it starts right at the outset. So I think before this Cuba swim challenge, way back in the 70s, and then, you know, in more current times, when I was in my 60s, it's almost Lisa as if I had a titanium helmet and that was my will. And I said, it doesn't matter what happens, what unknown. Those box jellyfish were unknown to us. They didn't use to swim in those particular waters, but global warming has brought them there. Or things that I do know. You know, how just your mind after, you know, you're in a sensory deprivation state, you don't hear much, you don't see much. When I say much, I mean anything. Um, so, you know, pretty soon you're in the interior of your mind. So imagine just sitting there in your chair for 53 hours. You're not under duress of swimming in the open seas, but you'll have no visual and no audio input. You won't go to sleep. You're going to sit there for 53 hours. I'm telling you, it would be an extremely difficult challenge for you. So if you're out there in the ocean and going through those 53 hours, I've got this titanium cap that says, I I don't know how bored, how tough, how hard my shoulder's gonna feel, how, um, there's gonna be a shark scare. I'm gonna be bitten by dangerous jellyfish. It doesn't matter what comes my way because before I started training, before I just started to pursue this dream, I said nothing, nothing will get me to say I can't. I was under the will of a titanium helmet. And I think a lot of people are when they're pursuing difficult stuff.

Speaker A: Wow. Such a important point that it happens

Speaker B: in the beginning, I think. So. You know what? You'll find this funny. I had some people over a couple of weeks ago, and instead of having the news on the television, as I was getting the kitchen all cleaned up, I put on some music and I decided to choose this Ella Fitzgerald radio and the Charlie Chaplin song of, um, smile. Even though your heart is breaking, you know that. And there's a line in there that's try. It's something like try. Even though you da, da. Uh, and I went over and turned it off and I said, I'm so tired of trying. That's all I do is try and try. Can't I just let go and do nothing and care about nothing today? You know? But it was funny. It made me laugh for a minute. But it's true that I just decided I'm gonna try. I'm gonna spend my life trying, succeed or not.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, uh, I don't think anybody can accuse you of not. So that really brings up your motto, um, of find a way, which of course is what you said when you reach the shore. And it was the title of your book. And I wanted to ask you about that because that can mean different things to different people. And some people can hear it as just like, power through. Right. Just do it. I'm curious what Find a Way really means to you.

Speaker B: You know, I think, um, it's similar to a clunkier sort of self help expression of the Teddy Roosevelt famous arena speech. So Teddy Roosevelt, um, to grossly paraphrase, just said, I never want to be the cold, timid soul that sits on the sidelines as the critic I admire, the one who gets into the arena, who risks losing, risks being embarrassed. I want to be in the arena whether I win or lose that battle, whatever it might be. And so I think Find a Way is for me. You're in the arena, you choose it. But I'm gonna find a way if it's what I truly want to do. And on the other hand, I tell young people all the time they'll say, you know, I started this PhD and I feel like I'm going to disappoint my parents. If I drop out and I say, it's your life, and if that's not the root, the path you really want to pursue, even though you thought it was two years ago, there's no shame in it that this is your one life, you never get to do this day over again. If you get to the end of this day and, um, you say, man, I just messed that up. I didn't give it anything better. You should drop out of that PhD program if you know in your heart and it's just not right for you and you discovered that along the way, you find your way, you'll find a way to the right dream for you.

Speaker A: I love that. I love that. So I know you and Bonnie have the organization encouraging people to walk, ever walk, and on the theme of strength, we know that it's really important beyond a certain age. Right. Especially menopause or beyond that, women do resistance training and strength training or end up losing muscle. So we're not going to do what you do, clearly. But what advice do you have for, you know, the rest of us mere mortals and in terms of what is important to do on a say, weekly basis? Physically?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's more a daily basis. It is, uh, we're animals, you know, so if you watch your dog, yes, they sleep a lot during the day, but what gives them joy is getting up and running around. You know, it's like when you watch little children and I'm a grantee now, I have a nephew who has a two year old and um, you know, her greatest joy isn't sitting down and eating, isn't sitting and watching some screen. Her greatest joy is moving. So we're animals. If you just every day of your life you decide, I'm going to walk and move my limbs and feel my spirit stomach flat and uh, make sure that my Achilles tendons are getting stretched out. I just say if every day you allow this animal body of yours to move for one hour, even an hour, total 15 minutes here, then you're going to get ahead of all those nasty things that happen to the body when we're sedentary.

Speaker A: Yeah. And the movement is such an important reminder because, you know, it's not quite natural the way our lives are structured these days and being so sedentary. Right.

Speaker B: Lisa, if you don't mind my interrupting, I think I was given, ah. Born with a volume of energy and on the Other hand, you can create that if you take enough care of this temple our body, and give it the foods it needs and the rest it needs. I want to have vitality, and I create that energy by taking care of myself. And so I don't think you're born with that. I think that you make your energy. And energy is like, uh, it's the steam engine, isn't it, underneath that allows us to feel hope and drive towards something that takes discipline and time, um, and keep with something even though you might fail once or twice on your way. So, um, uh, I think that taking care of your level of energy is key to chasing all your dreams.

Speaker A: There's one really big topic we haven't touched on which seems really important, and that is teamwork. And you have said that you would not have accomplished what you did without your team. I am curious because I, uh, believe you've also said that your appreciation for teamwork has grown over the years. What, in your view, makes a great team? Great?

Speaker B: You know, to me, it starts at, uh, the top. The leader or the leaders need to have respect. I worked in television all those years and there was a, ah, oh, I don't know. I can't speak for, you know, I'm m not in that world anymore. But, um, a lot of the executives in my era, which was the 80s and the 90s, especially in television, they work as a lot of corporate structures do, under this guise of. I want to make you as the worker, feel unappreciated, feel that when you come in for your review and you want to get a raise or get a promotion, I'm going to be able to say to you, you're not that valuable here. You know, I can let you go easily. And because they don't want to pay them more, they don't want to extend their contracts. They just want to extract the work for them. Well, does that really make that person feel, um, valuable and feel excited to come in even earlier than they do, you know, to get the work done? No. I know you have to have a chain of command. There have to be, you know, certain people in charge of making decisions. But I think that when you make that workforce feel respected, you know, Steve Jobs, as much as he was considered, I guess, a very difficult character in terms of the tech people who actually did the difficult mathematical work to design that iPhone. When he first came out on that stage, I think it was 2007, he would say, I admit this was my dream. I had the vision for this. Isn't it the most Beautiful thing you've ever seen, the iPhone. But it was you. It was you out there. The engineers, the tech specialists. You're the ones who brought your value and whatnot. And they stood up, um, not because the iPhone was going to be some invention. It was that they were appreciated for their talents and their hard work. So my style of leadership, that team of mine from Cuba and in Everwalk, we lead a bunch of people. I want them to know how valued they are. The reason, Ann Marie Rakovich, you are our ambassador in New York City, our most important chapter, is because you have the smarts and the energy and the caring to be out there every single day, Saturday, rain, sleet, snow. Leading those people and exciting them about discovering the wonders of Central Park, New York City. And, um, she feels, as she should, that she is a very valued agent in our corporation. So that's what I think a leader should do. And what a team. She rises up when they feel they're being respected. And we're all getting on one level, save a few important decisions that somebody needs to make, not by committee. So, um, that's what I think a team works best as is. We're all in it together, and we're all equal partners in it.

Speaker A: You know, you brought music into this conversation already in such a beautiful way, and I know it plays a big role in your life. I saw you play the trumpet. I saw you get 11,000 women at the Massachusetts Conference for Women on their feet. Uh, and singing ain't nothing gonna break my stride.

Speaker B: Right? That's right.

Speaker A: Yes. And I know you post, um, songs every Friday on your Instagram account. So I want to end with asking you, if you had to choose one all time favorite song to motivate you when you needed it, what would it be? And would you be willing to sing us a little bit of it?

Speaker B: You know, Lisa, I'm shameless about the singing. I'm decidedly not a singer, not a professional. Um, and Bonnie always says to me, you know what? You have a nice tone to your voice, but if I were you, I'd keep it short. But I love music, and I love the music of my generation, which was Simon and Garfunkel and the Beatles. And I do think that singing brings people together. We're at a particularly, um, tough time in this country, maybe in this world. And I think a lot of people write me after that Music Friday, every Friday for two years now, every single Friday. And it's not that they, they write and say, oh, my God, you sang that so beautifully. What they Write is I feel like I just got three minutes of a ceasefire. I found some joy instead of the news, et cetera. And so that's what it's really about is that when we sing like in front of that group at the Message Massachusetts conference, um, to sing Ain't nothing gonna break my stride and nobody gonna slow me down. But frankly, I think there are songs that moved me. They did move me out in the ocean. Always Neil Young. And um, it's not necessarily the lyrics. It's not necessarily. Well, let's, let's grasp onto those lyrics because that they are the stuff of the lessons of life. Like ain't nothing gonna break, you know, break my stride but when I hear I been to Hollywood, I've been to redwood I've crossed the ocean for a heart of gold I've been in my mind it's such a fine line Keeps me searching for a heart uh, of gold and I'm getting old, I just melt. I just feel like that is the stuff of the beauty of life. And that melody and his falsetto voice, even though I'm singing it, um, that just brings me to a place of rapture. And I think music does that. And singing together little sing alongs, even if it's just. I often tell a group I got 10,000 people in front of me and I say, okay, this half, this half is going to sing Bob Marley, uh, you know, just those three lines that he does, which is, um. Baby, don't worry. Then the others. Bout a thing Every little thing is gonna be all right Then everybody together Baby don't worry about a thing Every little thing is gonna be all right and when they hear themselves, I don't care if it's 300 people or 10,000 people, they. They let loose. They feel the looseness in their voice. They feel the happiness in their eyes. They hear each other next to each other and they rise up. You know, many people through history have led sing alongs to get people together. Even if it's not a song that necessarily says, you know, the requiem of life, you know, to be lived. But that song, don't worry if we're just together Every little thing is going to be all right. So, uh, yeah, I'm a big fan of music and singing and singing along.

Speaker A: I am a big fan of Diana Nyad. Thank you so much. This has been absolutely amazing. You are an extraordinary human being who just keeps inspiring.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Thanks again to Diana Nyad for joining us. The Conferences for Women is the largest network of women's conferences in the nation, and we are dedicated to helping you reach your full potential in work and in life. I'm, um, Lisa Bennett, and this is Women Amplified. Thanks so much for. Listen.