The Story of the Dogecoin Millionaire + Money in the Internet Age - Conversation with Chris Temple - Director of the hit documentary - THIS IS NOT FINANCIAL ADVICE

Speaker A: So one of the main characters of the film is this, uh, you know, this guy, pro, who calls himself, you know, the Dogecoin millionaire. And basically he maxed out his credit cards, took out cash advances, borrowed, uh, money from friends, sold all his stocks, and he put it all into Dogecoin. And this is in early 2021. We start filming with him. Found, uh, him on Twitter and started filming with him, you know, during this period. And watch as he goes turns this bad into a million dollars.

Speaker B: There is more to that story, obviously, and it is an epic one. Today's episode is with Chris Temple, director of a documentary film that is blowing up at the moment. It was number three on Apple tv recently called this Is Not Financial Advice. I let Chris set the film up, but it was documented through the crazy bull market of 2021. But, uh, we go a lot deeper in this conversation. We talk about the Internet and money, fear and greed and fomo, the cost of living, living, why younger generations are drawn to some of this world. And loads, loads more. Chris was awesome. Really enjoy this one. Definitely give him a follow and definitely check out the film. It is a genuinely great watch that you can't take your eyes off. And this was a brilliant chat. So thank you, Chris, for coming on. Of course, as if we need to say it in this episode, nothing, uh, is financial advice. How apt. But let's get into it. Chris, great to have you on the show. Thank you very much for coming on.

Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm, uh, looking forward to this chat. It's going to be a good one. Um, I watched your brilliant documentary, this Is Not Financial Advice, uh, premiered at Tribeca last year. Congratulations. Uh, it's brilliant. And yes, had lots of great reviews as well. So, um, yeah, it must feel good to have that out there, have people watch it and capture some of the craziness that is crypto land.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, you have no idea. I mean, this project has been three years in the making, so we started it, you know, in January, early January 2021, and now to finally have it released online globally. Anyone can see it on Apple tv, Prime Video, um, and it's, uh, currently trending number three on Apple, which is great. So we're really excited by the response so far.

Speaker B: Nice. Yeah, congratulations. That's awesome. That's very cool to see. Indeed. And it's come out a pretty interesting time because as we'll get into the crypto, markets are turning up again after all the chaos which we tend to see in these cycles. Uh, so, yeah, it's quite a cool time to watch it, if you haven't already. Definitely recommend people do go and check it out. So, yeah, for me, I mean, this film highlights a lot of what's going on at the moment, for good and for bad. You know, some of the themes, as I'm sure you can talk about it way better than I can, but that I sort of, you know, spot the continued rise of the Internet and meme culture and Internet community that we just, you know, it's been my whole generation really, and it's. And it's. And it's still kind of expanding into new areas. Also. We kind of get into sort of the cracks in the traditional financial system and sort of the, the US dollar dominance and, and, you know, the cost of living for people is very real at the moment. The sort of this American dream. Uh, people always reference like the Simpsons as this guy who, uh, Homer could go and have a pretty standard job but feed his, his family a nice house and all that stuff. And nowadays people are really feeling that's not the case anymore.

Speaker A: Yeah, no chance.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And. And millennials kind of feeling forced in some aspects to take bigger risks to kind of keep up in the world. So, yeah, maybe you could kind of tease the documentary. It covers some of those themes, uh, with individual stories that are really interested. Um, maybe you could tell us so why you wanted to make it.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's hard to encapsulate all of money in the Internet and crypto in 90 minutes. Right. So, you know, we couldn't do it all in this film. But I think what my, our approach to it was that we thought would be the most timeless and the most helpful for viewers was to follow just four regular Americans who had very different approaches to money and investing, um, over multiple years. And so some are taking crazy risks, you know, selling their, uh, houses and putting it all into, you know, Metaverse tokens and others. And, and they're, you know, one of their, you know, his wife divorced him over that decision. You've got like the extremes on some sides, and then you've got one who's kind of a foil character of that, a much more traditional investor, uh, follows the principles of being boring long term, not emotionally attached to your money. Right. Um, and I think, you know, by following them through a full market cycle, so we were able to, you know, we began this in early 2021, so following all of the hype cycles, everything going up, you know, the period where 96% of all stocks went up and every Crypto was booming at like thousand percent returns, um, but then also following through, well, how does everything change when things start going down and how do people react? And I just hope that the film will give people a taste of all of the different ways you can approach money and therefore allow you to reflect back on your own goals with money and your own relationship to risk and know, plan accordingly as uh, I think we'll have a lot of, and we already are having a lot of shifts in the opportunities for investments between the range of crypto products that are out there obviously, but also just you know, new low cost trading apps that are welcoming people into the stock market and providing them opportunities there too. So it's a really wild and crazy journey over a couple years through the highs and highs and lows.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting because I think like more than probably any other generation, people have uh, like looked at money and thought, what is it? Because they've kind of been forced to. And you know that might show itself in taking kind of big risks and speculation and stuff. But this film also isn't the film about necessarily, uh, like shitting on it for a better word. It's just sort of showing everything that's, that's happening. Right. And like I, I think for people listening they might be in one of a few camps. The, the people that I meet tend to be in one of these camps of like either straight up like all of crypto and all of this world is a scam. Like you know, and usually they maybe haven't looked into it, but they're not wrong in some sense, you know, in part of it or ah, other people say, you know, it's a technological revolution, it's money kind of accessible to everybody in a free market. It's also the wild west. It's sort of digital native money in a digital first world. It has real fundamental value or it's just speculative and kind of all these things are true all at the same time as all these shifts are happening. So it's like, yeah, you know, it kind of boils down to this is a technology, humans will be humans with it. And it was interesting to watch different people's stories with different risk appetites and, and ultimately just trying to sort of navigate uh, what's going on. But for you, when you go into making a film like this, I'll be interested to know if you what your kind of crypto journey was going into it and were you sort of just taking a step back and wanted to see everything neutrally to Capture what was going on. But yeah, I'd love to hear kind of your story and thoughts before you start filming.

Speaker A: No, I mean, I, to be honest, I started this film coming at it from a place of, of being very bullish on crypto. I was super. I drank the Kool Aid. I was coming into this really excited. And it wasn't just crypto to me, it was more about this investor revolution. I feel like I was seeing of uh, you know, coming off of Gamestop and AMC and some of the Meme stock stuff in early 2021 and just feeling like, hey, there's a lot of frustration out there with the current wealth inequality in this country and let's stick it to the man. And uh, and so I think that's where, you know, again, I was, I was beginning this, this journey with. And then I did. Over the past three years, you know, I've done hundreds of interviews with investors, with builders in the crypto space space, with tech thought leaders. Um, and I think I've become a bit more, you know, balanced or hedged in my opinions and in some ways why the film came, came out the way that it did, which is like, I'm just going to embed you into this world and you come to your own conclusions about it. Right? Because there's so many different, uh, all of the things that you described can exist, you know, together. Like if I were to describe it, you know, using the words that you, uh, that you started talking about here, you know, scam, technological revolution, uh, wild west, like, I guess to me I would say, you know, it's know, like all potential tech revolutions, it's in its early iterations. It feels like the Wild west because of that and it's encouraging speculation that isn't yet rooted in fundamental value. And I think you could compare it to kind of the early days of the Internet, which other people have obviously talked about. Um, but I think like the difference there is that crypto hasn't yet fully demonstrated this widespread value in the way that the Internet did. So I feel like it's this, it's like coming right off the dot com bubble in the late 90s. Um, and in some ways I think this is a, this boom and bust or the boom and bust cycles for crypto are really good because it'll strip back all of the speculative stuff to sort of see what's left and, and answer that question of like, what really matters? And like, is this a digital revolution? Um, to me it's too early to use. I don't use the word web3 because I think it needs to prove it's web3 before I'll give it that title. And I think, sure, there's a lot of exciting opportunities and potential and I think the, the problems that it's trying to fix to me are quite clear. And I think the film itself really demonstrates the problems around the failures of the financial system, the failures of wealth inequality which just get worse and worse and worse. Um, you know, the lack of community that I think a lot of people feel, um, the lack of trust in just broader institutions. Um, I think all of this stuff, people are looking for solutions. Um, and I give a lot of credit to the blockchain community that it is at least pushing and asking those questions in a way that a lot of others aren't.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's so hard to unpack, isn't it? Because I am very pro bitcoin specifically because I think that has a very different fundamental value to a lot of the rest of it. And I think then I'm um, Pro some of Web3 stuff. But I'm aware that there needs to be a lot more education and, and a lot more kind of awareness and learning about this stuff. And it, it, I've always said like when the Internet happened it was like the transfer of information everywhere, all at once that was really crazy and cool and could connect us all. Now it's happening again, but it's a transfer of value. But we, it's moving so quickly because we've already got the information rails that suddenly all these kind of scams can just start and blow up and people can lose money and it's all like moving so fast because all those Internet rails are already there. Like it's, you know. Yeah, it's a kind of crazy, uh, interesting, uh, mad thing. And these are very human stories in the film that you sort of see

Speaker A: everything and the Internet supercharges it all. I mean I think you're spot on that. It's like, look, if this stuff was able to be slowed down a little bit, it would probably be totally fine and we would really minimize a lot of the quick learnings that we've run into. But I mean so much of tech goes through this. I mean social media has its pros and its cons. It's all double edged swords really at the end of the day. But because of the growth and the speed at which technology is ramping out and the Internet is just amplifying everything in a supercharged, turbocharged way, you know, it can get out of hand quickly.

Speaker B: And the boom and bust off. So interesting because in a way it's like a healthy thing that you maybe don't see so much in the traditional system because it can be kind of arguably sort of propped up by printing more money. And so we don't have these generally these massive crashes. Whereas in crypto, it's like if it's a scam or whatever and people find out, it's like you can move your money at lightning speed and it crashes and it's awful if you're part of that and haven't understood it. But in a way, it's kind of healthy because it's like the crap gets flushed out immediately, even though it's sort of devastating. So, yeah, it's really hard to, to kind of package all these things up. And before we spin off too much, uh, because we could go a few different ways in this conversation, but I'd love to maybe hear you just tease a few of the individual stories in this film because they are very different. People might not know about. Without giving too much away, maybe you could just sort of tease the different stories in that because it's a good cross section.

Speaker A: So one of the main characters of the film is this, uh, you know, this guy, pro, who calls himself, you know, the dogecoin millionaire. Um, and basically he maxed out his credit cards, took out cash advances, borrowed, uh, money from friends, sold all his stocks, and he put it all into Dogecoin. And this is in early 2021. We start filming with him, uh, found him on Twitter and started filming with him during this period. And watch as he goes, turns this bet into a million dollars, then doesn't sell it. Then, uh, he turns it into 1.5, then $2 million. Then everyone's telling him to sell, right? All his friends are getting on him. And, uh, then he turns into $3 million. And now he feels like a genius, right, because everyone's been telling him to sell and he's like, no, look, it's 3 million. I'm going to ride it up to 10. And he starts just moving. You know, it's what Morgan Housel calls like the moving goalpost. Where it started, at first he just wanted to be a millionaire, but then he wanted 2 million and then he wanted 3, and then he wanted 10, right? And you just start shifting your, your goalpost expectations of, of what you were looking for from money. Um, and that's a really dangerous thing that happened for him. But long and short, you know, when he, once he gets up to 3 million, he builds this, um, I think people really start paying attention because again, the Internet starts coming and becoming a part of this, right? He gets. All his videos start going viral. He gets featured on the front page. Time, front page of the New York Times. And, uh, and it starts to encourage him not to sell because now he's getting kind of all this validation from people online. And I think the community really played this big role for him of like, no, I'm never going to sell because we're going to stick it to the man together and, you know, I'm going to hold on to my dogecoin forever. And then the second half of the film, he starts losing the money. Um, not to spoil it, but, you know, everyone knows the market cycles and he goes from 3 million down to 2 million, 2 million down to 1 million. And then he eventually loses, you know, all the way back down to his original investment. Um, and it's just. It's one of those films. I mean, some of the reviews, you know, the Guardian called it a gripping financial horror film. Uh, you know, another one said, you'll be screaming at your TV the whole time, right? Like, you know, there's definitely a very visceral experience being a part of this film as you watch it, that you just want to throw stuff and yell while you're. While you're in it.

Speaker B: 100%. Yeah. It is like a financial horror film is a great category. I think that's very accurate because it's like you're watching this guy and like, the weird thing is it's like so such repeatable human behavior. Like, especially if you watch markets and if you've ever had any little bit of success or whatever, your brain does exactly the same thing where it's like, well, we've, you know, let's go for more because it's easy or whatever. And everyone goes kind of through that and it's like. It's a weirdly, like a harrowing thing to watch, but it's at least you're kind of in a horrible way watching it to someone else, but not yourself. It's like you ride the whole journey with it. So, yeah, I've really encouraged people to check out because it is. It's such a crazy thing. And, um.

Speaker A: And so obviously his story is an extreme example. But I do think that anyone can watch it and think about their own relationship to risk as they're watching that journ and their own. You know, we've all made mistakes where we've held on to an investment too long, right? Like, we've all done it. We've all gotten a little greedy and been like, oh, well, maybe it could go, um, you know, a bit further. Or we've, you know, we haven't diversified as much as we should in our investments. And you're kicking yourself afterwards of, like, hindsight. In hindsight, it looks so simple to have made a smarter decision. And then again, you know, the film doesn't judge Pro for his decisions because I also was, you know, I got caught up in speculative investing. I lost a bunch of money on different crypto investments. I made some money on some. But like, it's the Wild west, and, and. And I think, uh, you know, we didn't want this film to be kind of a. A patronizing, like, professorial film telling you that you need to do better. But it's more looking at a lot of the factors that cause Pro to make those decisions. And then, you know, so he's one of the main characters. And then there's really, you know, the primary kind of foil character to him is. Is this guy Sinai, who, you know, he's the son of Eritrean immigrants. Um, lives in Long beach in a, you know, in a, you know, community that really doesn't have much access to financial opportunity or financial education. So he starts like, a local investing club, helps people learn about it, um, helps people kind of take control of their money. Um, and he's not investing in crypto. He's investing in traditional, um, you know, stocks and. And opportunities in the traditional markets. But he's helping to onboard people who have never generated wealth in that way, and just teaching people the basics of, you know, you can't just leave your money sitting in a savings account when there's 7% inflation. And how do you kind of take control of this? I think for his community, those opportunities were never taught in school. They weren't there. And I think, uh, uh, because oftentimes the most marginalized communities are the ones that are getting targeted by the scams the most. Uh, he really wanted to kind of counter that and help people, you know, generate wealth in a more traditional sense.

Speaker B: Yeah, that is such an important story in it as well. Um, yeah, because it speaks to sort of, yeah, youth culture in so many different ways. And that lack of access in, uh, a way. And like we're saying at the beginning is sort of people for, uh, maybe the first time are really learning about money in a way that school didn't teach them about it. And, you know, maybe that happens through crypto, which might not be the best way initially. But you start asking the questions at least. So it is. There's some, something really interesting happening there.

Speaker A: And I think, like with crypto, like, you know, not to interrupt but like the idea that, you know, okay, so if someone's gone through a market experience like, like Pro, for example, he put all his money into dogecoin, it brought him into financial markets. Now what happens next? And does. What are the lessons that somebody learns through that? Do you start to diversify more? Do you start to think more carefully about. Yeah, about timing of markets and the cyclical nature of this and, and do you just get smarter? Do you get more interested? And I think that's the, the, you know, I think my hope, when I look at things like, you know, meme coins, for example, like, I think there's a lot of value as an onboarding tool, um, of maybe helping people get in interested in this stuff for the first time, where, you know, it's a problem that 90% of stocks in America are owned by 10% of Americans. Like that is going to continue to perpetuate wealth inequality. But if we can kind of bring more people into invest investable assets, that's a great thing.

Speaker B: 100% agree with you there. Uh, you mentioned meme coins. And like, meme coins are so interesting because people write them off straight away. And I understand why, because, you know, if you, if you're going to be really intellectual about it, you know, there's, it's a joke, like there's no fundamental value really here if you look at sort of the tokenomics of stuff and whatever. But you, you kind of look at memes also as, you know, Internet culture and language that gets a lot of attention online and gets a lot of eyes online and therefore can be a very valuable tool. Like, you see a lot of companies using memes online in quite a clever and valuable way to, to, you know, to get people to sort of follow them and stuff like that. It's also a bit of a nephew to the traditional financial system, obviously. What, what did you kind of come out of it with? Any thoughts about meme coins and whether there's, you know, in a way something that people are missing if you don't look into them at all. Some of sometimes if you write off something completely, it's actually worth looking at a bit more deeply. But I don't know. What did you think?

Speaker A: No, I mean, I think it's absolutely true that it's so easy for people to write them off. Um, and I think I was fascinated by the movement and the Power that meme coins have demonstrated already for a few years and meme stocks and that kind of momentum, community based, uh, investment. Um, so I think there's a lot to be learned by going into it. And there was actually a period where I thought that this film might be called the Meme Economy, um, because I think it is at this intersection of the Internet and money. Um, and memes, uh, are such a big part of that, of how things go viral on the Internet, how stories like pros begin to spread. And I think you'll see throughout the film, Pro, the dogecoin millionaire, people start making memes about him, right? He becomes this figurehead for the dogecoin community at the time. Um, of, you know, there's all these great memes of, you know, Braveheart memes of him, you know, his face put on, uh, you know, a Braveheart meme and people saying, like, I'm with you, I'm going to hold forever, you know, and leading us into battle. All of these kind of, um, demonstrations of what he meant to the community. I do think memes will be around for a while because I think they drive. I think people are looking for humor and people are looking for stuff that's fun in a world right now that it sometimes feels like all you get is bombarded by sad and terrible news online. And so I think people are looking for that humor. Do I think that meme coins long term are going to replace the dollar bill in a currency? No. And I think that's something that pro talks about in the film of kind of believing that dogecoin will actually replace the dollar. Um, I wouldn't say I've drank the Kool Aid to that level. Um, but I do think that there's, you know, these are trends that have millions and millions of people interested in them and we've got to, you know, look at them and learn more. And I think the community side of it is something that um, still really, uh, stayed with me through the film is like, you've got a lot of power in these online communities and people who've just found friendship at a time where it's. People feel really isolated. Um, you found like a shared mission. And especially coming off the pandemic the past few years. Uh, and for pro, you know, he was living alone in 180 square foot apartment and then he finally had friends online and people who were rooting for him and talking to him. And I think that's really valuable.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's, that's a good assessment for sure. So it is really fascinating. Um, I wanted to ask as well, like, you know, I've. I've studied a little bit of the history of money, which is so fascinating when you go back to, uh, you know, real, uh, basics and kind of barter trade and how money kind of developed and all that stuff. And there's a great book, Broken Money by Lynn Olden, if you come across that. But it's a great history, really interesting, and it kind of speaks about the future of money and covers a lot of this stuff as well. It's a great, great read if you're new to this space. But one of the things that I think is in. In that book as well is in history, in certain times of kind of desperation and massive inflation, they talk about the Weimar, uh, Germany era when, you know, mass inflation. It also kind of pushes people into a corner where they feel sort of a bit helpless and they feel forced to take massive risk because if they don't do anything, then their money is just. Is. Is going down in value and, uh, yeah, everything's getting more expensive and. And stuff like that. So I don't know whether you. You kind of, um, studied any of that going into the documentary or whether that's something that you kind of witnessed, um, in your film.

Speaker A: Yeah, I haven't read that book, but I will check it out. I mean, I think the biggest parallel that I saw in my research was the lottery system in the US that, you know, when wages go down or you have a crisis like the 2008 financial crisis, lottery ticket sales skyrocket. Right. And I think the phenomenon you're seeing there is that when people don't feel like there's a ladder to climb out of the situation that they're in or to have social mobility, they look for a trampoline. And I think that's what for our main character Pro, for example, was the situation. You know, he's. He's actually an undocumented immigrant who was feeling like he had very little opportunity to traditional jobs. He kept getting fired for having a lack of papers. He couldn't get access to traditional stock investments. So for him, crypto was, um, you know, a very logical thing to turn to. To when he felt like, you know, he was grasping for any other opportunity and it wasn't there. So he looked for the trampoline.

Speaker B: Yeah. Interesting as well. Yeah. You talk about access and those kind of things. Yes. Uh, it's fascinating for a lot of reasons, um, in there, for sure. I wanted to ask as well about the response to the Film because it's had, uh, great reviews. But for you personally, has there been a different response from different kind of demographics of people? Because I guess massively generalizing when you speak to the boomer crowd. No offense if you're in that crowd, but, like, you really generalized thing is, like, oh, you know, boomers think crypto is a scam and everything else. But I'd be interested to hear, uh, any responses and what you've kind of heard from that.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the film is absolutely tailored to people our age. You know, it's tailored to young people. It's supposed to feel of the Internet, even in the animation and what you're going for throughout the experience. Um, it's definitely not a boomer take on crypto. Um, you know, I've been. Our team was, I've speculated, invested in for years. I've mined tokens, I've built stuff in the metaverse. I'm genuinely curious about how we can do things better and how blockchain or crypto could be a part of that. Um, so, uh, yeah, I think the reactions from young people have been my favorite. I mean, I think they get and understand immediately all of the varied themes that are moving throughout this film. And then I do think I've been pleasantly surprised at how many, um, people from older generations have thoroughly enjoyed the film. And again, because the film is just an emotional rollercoaster, it's just a fun thing to watch no matter who you are. And you can go on a journey and you can learn a few things along the way. And maybe the boomers aren't quite catching all of the subtle nuance in the animation and the memes culture and all the stuff that's happening in there as we are. Um, but I think they still get something out of it. So we've done a lot of screenings with different, more traditional financial institutions as well, kind of starting conversations there. Um, but some of my favorite screenings have been, honestly, with high schools and colleges of young people who are looking at their financial future and trying to figure out how to navigate this world of financial education online and have a lot of questions, and I'd love to be able to support them. So it's something that we actually do at our nonprofit Optimist is we, you know, we run tours, we built out a curriculum around the film that we offered to teachers, uh, for free on our website. Um, and, uh, modules, like, of different learning modules about the film. So really just trying to spark conversation and help people. Help, uh, people learn.

Speaker B: M. That's so cool. That's. That's awesome that you're. You're doing that as well. And having spent time with all these people and really sort of, you know, like, watch what's happening on the grounds, all the good and the bad. Where. Where do you kind of think we are heading next? And, you know, what would you sort of like to say to people if they are in their 20s, maybe, and they've kind of watched all this stuff happen and they're wondering, you know, is that something I should do, need to do, or. Yeah. Or more broadly, like the next few years, kind of where's it left you? And what do you think we do next?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think I just learned so much over the past few years by paying attention to how the Internet is changing money. And I think so many of us just ignore that the Internet and social media are changing money. And I think, um, and I think the more awareness that people can have about that will help for decades throughout their lives. And, you know, to me, I think the lessons of this film are timeless. It's really. It's not about this moment in time in crypto. I think it'll just help anyone think about their relationship and goals with money. It'll help them think about fear and greed. It'll help them think about risk and hopefully kind of expand their minds a little bit in that way. So, I mean, I'm an optimist about where we are going more broadly. I mean, I run a company called Optimist, but I think, you know, that technology is providing an incredible amount of opportunity. I think we'll work out the kinks of scams and other challenges that are happening along the way. Um, and I think we will hopefully be able to find a way to combat wealth inequality through whatever new technologies that we come up with. And it's probably not the current iterations of what we're seeing and talking about even in the current blockchain world, but who knows where we are in 10, in 10, 20 years? And again, I think it's like when you look at the early companies in the 90s being built on the Internet, none of them are still around, you know, and then. But you look at what ended up kind of iterating and building off of that 10 years later with, you know, Google and Facebook and other things like, oh, wow, I never would have seen that coming. Uh, so I'm just, you know, just keep an open mind, I guess, would be my advice.

Speaker B: Yeah. Are there any kind of themes that you're looking at? Because you know, one of the big ones I'm following a lot at the moment, and I don't know whether you had any of the kids after screenings kind of talk about it, but like a big sort of uh, cultural shift and where that generation spending their attention are in virtual worlds online. Obviously this podcast is about the, the Metaverse and, and you know, you see, you look at Roblox, you look at Fortnite and you look at these digital assets, you look at these in game economies there. And then you look at other uh, you know, web three based games where you've got economies that are like little digital countries coming to life and there's, there's digital trade within them that's linked to the real world. And you're like, okay, this is, this all seems like a sort of big directional thing for the future, but you're obviously in this space and sounds like you have been for a while as well. Are there any sort of themes that you're looking at that you find interesting that you'd like to study more?

Speaker A: Maybe. I mean, I think, I think one of the themes that drew me to this film, you know, I didn't know where the film would go. But one thing that was interesting to me up front was this idea that young people are digitally native, right? Like we, and you know, I'm a millennial. But you know, you look at it when I'm speaking at high school to high schoolers, you know, they're just incredibly plugged in into digital communities and it comes so naturally. And so you can only assume that that trend is going to continue. And again I think, like, how does that manifest, uh, in terms of actual products being served to them and is in the Web2 ecosystem or is there actually some. Like how will we try, how will we finally figure out what digital ownership looks like in the, in these digital worlds? But is it the current iteration of NFTs? Like I think that's very early days technology to me, um, that just hasn't quite cracked it yet. But I love the questions it's asking and like, I think we have to be asking those questions. But no, I, I, every young person I talk to at high schools, I think they, they will continue just to push and use technology and AI to become even more digital. And uh, I'm excited by that. I love program, I love, you know, playing Roblox or seeing programs like that. I think like some of the Metaverse programs and their current iterations, when I play in them, like I still find them kind of boring. Like they're they don't have that much community always. I mean, I've played a lot in like Decentraland, you know, and I, I just feel like I'm like, come on guys, like, you can do a little better. Like, it's still, it's so latent with its loading it. Like, I get lost all the time and I'm like, you know, you compare that to the world of like World of Warcraft or something where I'm so impressed in the product that's being built and I'm like, well, maybe we just can. How can we just build a better product? And I hopefully someday, you know, these kinds of metaverse, decentralized metaverse worlds will be able to get there. But, but so far I just like, haven't been that impressed.

Speaker B: Have you played Pixels? Do you know about Pixels?

Speaker A: No, I haven't. I'd love to check it out. Yeah. What do you think?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I totally understand what you're saying. And although like, I love the frontier of new technology and I'm a big sort of believer in that these things will come. Like, yes, like a lot of the first iterations, I agree, like, you sort of can't hide some of the fact that they're boring. But Pixels is really interesting. I've talked about it quite a lot on the podcast. Um, it's a 2D nostalgic kind of, uh, Pixel world, which is if anyone's ever played Stardew Valley or kind of Pokemon early games, you're, you're sort of exploring around this world and you have different quests to do from people in the world. So there's stuff to do immediately. There's also other players in there. Um, it's the biggest Web3 game at the moment as of the last sort of couple of months, uh, with about 160,000 players a day. But you, it's like a farming simulator, as it's called at its core. So you plant all these different crops, but you kind of level up and you have to get certain resources to solve some of the quests. But then there's an open player market so you can kind of, if you, if you've been playing longer, you can kind of ah, grow rarer stuff and sell it for a premium and you can take that currency out of the game if you want to as well. And there's land within it, so people have to farm on your land. If you own one of the lands and you get a surplus of like the extra crops that are on the land and stuff. So it's Suddenly like oh okay, this is like a real like little digital country. And um, yeah, it's ah. I imagine there'll be some interesting stories as we kind of go into this next cycle. I wonder if we'll see like a headline of this kids, you know, paid his parents mortgage off from farming digital crops in this game. You know, like something like that. I wonder. I don't know but it's.

Speaker A: I m mean have you, do you have fun playing it?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I, it's the first game really that I, I've played every day since I started and I, I genuinely find it really funny. Like we have group chats where we're talking about all the crops we've got and stuff and like um, and the quests are enough that you come back every day so you actually want to progress in there. Uh, and you can uh, yeah, sort of do stuff with your land. Um, and they've just done a big sort of airdrop campaign so there's like a leaderboard and you'll get airdrop some of the early crypto. So there's some financial incentives combined there. But they're doing it in, in a very thoughtful way and we'll see, we'll see what happens. Obviously, you know, cycles, everything gets excited and people are paying attention.

Speaker A: But no, but I think that's, that's exciting and I mean I think like the you know there's been a lot of resistance from gamer communities around integrating NFTs too heavily into the games and making it more about the money than the fact that gaming and like the Internet was supposed to be not based on the financialization of everything. And in some ways like it's. Some of these games like Axie Infinity for example like have become like the antithesis of what the game was. The joy the game was supposed to be in the first place. And it's turned into these farming. You're farming out your axes to people in the Philippines and trying to just like grind out dollars and cents and it's like wait, but this doesn't feel like a fun iteration of the Internet. And you come back to you know, the how important meme um, culture and like joy on the Internet is and I just think we haven't quite hit the mark yet. But again I'm not saying it won't happen but I think it's just some of you know what I'm seeing currently.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, it's fascinating, isn't it? Um, yeah. Well so much good stuff in there and I can't tell People enough to, um, definitely go watch the film because you'll really enjoy it, whether you like any of this world, really, or not. Like, it's. It's. The stories that are. Are fascinating. And, um, yeah, financial horror is such an accurate description of the main story in it, for sure. Um, maybe. Is there anything else you're working on next door or anything you're excited to kind of dive into, um, before we wrap up?

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, I mean, I think there's just, like, a couple moments from the film that stood out that would be fun to talk about for a moment. Um, like, you know, there's this one. One moment in the film where I'm with Pro, the main character, and he goes to Costco to buy celery because he's a big celery juice drinker. He drinks 32 ounces a day. Um, he's a man of extremes. Uh, and in this one hour that we go to Costco, you know, he makes over $185,000 on Dogecoin in that hour, just in his investment going up, right? And here I am holding a camera, sweating, you know, a broke documentary filmmaker. And I was just feeling so much fomo, right? I immediately. I knew better, but I immediately, like, took out my phone, I was like, I need to get in, right? And I buy Dogecoin at, like, 65 cents or something. And you're like that. And I think, to me, that, in a nutshell, is one of the lessons that I hope people will learn out of the film is just really understanding your relationship to fomo. And this fear of missing out in the world of the Internet, where it's so easy to start to see things going up. Like, as we come into a next cycle, for example, you know, my mom texted me and was like, hey, I saw Ethereum is back up. Should I buy it? And I was like, wait, think about that entirely differently, right? Ethereum is up. Maybe this isn't the moment to buy Ethereum. Um, and sort of being really, really careful about, you know, there's two types of fomo. You know, the creator of the term does a great interview throughout the film. But, you know, there's aspirational FOMO where you look at someone and you say, oh, I want that life. I want that amount of money. Like, I will look for that. And then there's herd. FOMO is the second type where, you know, you just start to see momentum in something, so you can't help but jump in. And I think, like, when it comes to crypto or new tech, in any way. Like, I just be really aware of, okay, how is fomo, herd and aspirational starting to play into how I'm feeling emotionally about this thing and can I pull my emotions back a little bit before I decide to put my life savings in it? And I think, like, that's just, you know, at the core level, what I, you know, I want people to just think about and understand more to protect themselves as we come into this new crazy world of the Internet that, like, uh, you know, I've made some mistakes and lost money and a lot of other people have gotten really hurt accidentally, you know, over investing in something that they didn't quite realize can disappear in 14 seconds.

Speaker B: Yeah. Which is true. If someone's won big, it means plenty of other people have lost either big or little bits for sure.

Speaker A: Then that's where social media plays this role, right? Where it's like, pro got the dogecoin millionaire, got probably 200 articles and things about him, um, of him making 300, making $3 million. Right. Like, everyone covered him winning. And then there's like five articles online about the fact that he lost the full $3 million. And you realize that imbalance is the Internet's rewarding. And social media algorithms are rewarding these positive stories that people engage with. And so, you know, and I think all of us young people are learning, you know, we're more aware of social media being this very curated look at just the best. Um, but it applies to money and the investment advice and investment stories that you're seeing online too. So for, you know, every pro that you see out there of someone who made $3 million on a crypto coin or an investment, there's probably, he may have lost that money. And then there's probably, you know, 150 other stories of people who lost, uh, at the same time.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's like that echo chamber, uh, in, like, social media just compounds the dopamine because you're. Everything you see is the stuff that's risen to the top. So you just. The FOMO is so real, isn't it? Because everybody's winning because that's what's being rewarded all the time. It's like, yeah, you have to really step out and just, uh, think about that.

Speaker A: But, yeah, and it gets me all the time. I'm always feeling it. Like, you know, anytime you just told me about pixel, and immediately like, oh, awesome. What is Pixel? I gotta jump into this thing. Is this the future? And you're like, okay, maybe, but let me, like, play with it. Let me just take a moment and, like, try to slow down a little bit with some of this stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah. It's funny watching yourself do it, isn't it? Even after having been through cycles before, it's like you can notice it in yourself just being like, yeah, this is probably going to be the biggest thing ever. I should go for it now. Like, you know, I know.

Speaker A: Uh, I know.

Speaker B: Yeah. Crazy. Do you still speak to Pro now? Do you, do you still chat to him now and again?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, all four of the main subjects of the film and all the experts, uh, we did a. You know, they've all been doing a lot of interviews and things. We did a great one last night all together and we had the Los Angeles premiere of the film last week. Uh, you know, full sold out house. We brought a Shiba Inu dog on the red carpet with us, uh, for. For Dogecoin. Um, and, uh, yeah, so, no, it's. I'm just really thankful to them for the, you know, the vulnerability that they showed in the film and the being willing to lay it all out there authentically because it's not that easy to talk about mistakes you've made with money. It's not that you don't really want to welcome a camera crew into your life to talk about your finances intimately. And, um, but I think a lot of people will learn from it as a result.

Speaker B: Nice. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, congrats on all this success. And, uh, yeah, as I say, ah, definitely go and check it out if you're listening. Uh, just remind people where they can go to watch it and, uh, to follow you as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So the film is called this is Not Financial Advice. If you Google it, it's online everywhere, across all digital platforms, also on tv. Um, you can come to our website, tinfafilm T I N F A film dot com. And, uh, yeah, definitely. Please check it out on Apple TV or one of these other ones. Throw up a review or comment online. Let us know what you think this film is. It's a small independent documentary. Right. I mean, it's. It's been driven by the community from the very beginning. I threw out a tweet that just said, hey, is anyone interested in making a film in this space? And it started to grow from there and now has been, you know, I think is the best film on money I've ever seen. And maybe I'm biased on that, but, you know, the reviews have been amazing. It hit Tribeca, it's globally available, and, you know, not enough people are talking about this stuff, and so, um, hopefully this film can be, uh, a great starting point for those conversations.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. Very much agree with that. So, uh, yeah, thank you, Chris, so much for coming on.

Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for this conversation. Really enjoy it. And, you know, love the podcast. Keep, uh, up the great work.

Speaker B: Cheers, man. Thank you. There we go. That was a good one, wasn't it, with Chris? Uh, thank you, Tim, for coming on. Uh, as I say, definitely check out the film. You won't be disappointed. I really, really enjoyed it. Uh, thank you for listening. All the links you need will be in the show notes below. Uh, have a great week, and I'll see you for next week's episode.