#29 Manuel La Rosa Betancourt | Co-founder of Neutron Star Systems on Bridging the Gap Between Lab and Orbit

Speaker A: When we think about space startups, we often imagine rocket launches, satellites and deep space missions. But behind every breakthrough in space, there is a long journey that starts in the lab, faces financial and political hurdles, and requires convincing investors and governments that something truly groundbreaking is worth the risk. Our guest today, Manuel, didn't start in the space industry. His background is in material science and he spent years working on engineering materials for industries like electronics, energy and pharmaceuticals. Later, his work shifted to identifying new technologies that could be enabled by high temperature superconductors, leading him to discover a potential application that turned into Neutron Star Systems, a startup he co founded. He is developing next generation propulsion technology. But getting a new space innovation off the ground isn't just about engineering. It's about navigating funding challenges, industry skepticism, and the politics of space. In this episode, we talk about Manuel's path into space industry, the obstacles between innovation and commercialization, and what it takes to turn a scientific breakthrough into a valuable business. If you ever wondered how space startups actually make it, this conversation is for you.

Speaker B: Well, my name is Manuel Rosa Betancourt. I am the CEO and co founder of Neutral Sound Systems and we are deep tech startup, uh, focusing on um, developing and building uh, disruptive electric propulsion systems for different type of mission scenarios. We use ah, cutting edge high temperature superconductors that allow us to uh, deliver um, a scalable solutions for um, different type of space missions.

Speaker A: Before we dive deeper into Manuel's work, let's take a moment to break down two key technologies that make it possible. High temperature superconductors and disruptive electric propulsion. Understanding this will help to put his innovations into perspective. What are high temperature superconductors? Superconductors are, uh, materials that can conduct electricity without any resistance when, um, cool below a certain temperature. Normally electrical wires and components lose some energy as heat because of resistance. Think of a regular incandescent light bulb. When you turn it on, it gets hot. That heat is wasted energy that doesn't contribute to the light, but is lost due to electrical resistance. Now imagine if that uh, bulb stayed completely cool while still shining just as brightly. That's what superconductors do. They allow electricity to flow without any resistance, meaning zero energy is lost as heat. This makes them incredibly efficient compared to normal electrical conductors like copper wires, which always have some energy loss. The challenge? Traditional superconductors only work at extremely cold temperatures, close to absolute zero minus 273 degrees Celsius, which requires costly cooling systems. High temperature superconductors, despite their name, still need to Be cooled. But they work at much higher temperatures than traditional superconductors. Instead of requiring ultra expensive liquid helium cooling, they can operate using liquid nitrogen, which is far more practical and affordable. Why is this important for space? High temperature superconductors allow for lighter, more powerful and more energy efficient electrical systems. In space, where every kilogram counts, reducing weight and power consumption is a game changer for propulsion and spacecraft systems. What are disruptive electric propulsion systems? Traditional spacecraft use chemical propulsion burning fuel like rocket engines to generate thrust. This is powerful but inefficient for long distance space travel because it requires huge amount of fuel and adds a lot of weight to spacecraft. Electric propulsion works differently. Instead of burning fuel, it uses electromagnetic forces, electric and magnetic fields to accelerate charged particles, ions or plasma to produce thrust. This has two big advantages. First, much higher efficiency electric propulsion uses far less propellant than chemical rockets. And second, continuous acceleration. While chemical rockets give a big push and then cost, Electric propulsion can accelerate slowly but continuously, allowing spacecraft to reach higher speeds over time.

Speaker B: Uh, I started this venture in uh, 2017 and actually I had been working uh, since more than seven years. And um, um, I started this with uh, micro founder at the University of stuttgart, uh, Professor Dr. George Hetisch. Um, mutual assistance operates uh, mostly uh, in uh, Germany and the United States and uh, would have been able to consolidate a uh, great portfolio of projects uh from uh, the European Union, the European Space Agency, the United States Space Force and uh, uh, other activities.

Speaker C: Okay, that, that sounds really, really impressive I have to say. Um, I'm curious if you personally always wanted to work in space.

Speaker B: That is a good question. Um, actually my major was in material science engineer. And I was a passionate person about uh, everything that have to do with materials. So I um, I started in Venezuela. I come from Caracas, uh, and I came to Germany to Bavaria by the way, uh, 35 years ago I uh, started working for different companies, multinationals mostly um, working on the area of materials for engineering products, polyamides for electronics. And then I work on robbers for a different type of energy applications, scale applications, oil and gas applications, window runs applications. Then I goes to um, uh, a company, uh, also making chemicals, but more mostly for the pharmaceutical industry. And uh, although I was fascinated about the stars, um, I didn't have any particular connection to space until I started working for a great company located in Bavaria. Uh, it's called uh, Teva. And uh, this is the first and only supplier of high temperature superconductors in Germany and in Europe. So my task was a time to find technologies that can be enabled with the use of high temperature superconductors. And um, I did a research at Google. I um, you know, did similar research and I found uh, the University of Stuttgart, the Institute of space systems. Professor. Dr. And I just grabbed the phone. At that time you used to use the phone and call people. Not today. And uh, yeah, I called him, I asked him, uh, are you building these thrusters? I found a report where you say that this thruster can be enabled and the flight proficiency of this thruster can be increased. Um, uh, if uh, superconductors are mature. And at that time, um, Teva just finished uh, its piloting plan with uh, funding from the Bavarian state and from other investors. And uh, they were one of the most um, cutting edge production facilities for superconductors in Europe. Um, they were able to build and produce these tapes or superconductors, um, in a industrial. So I uh, I called him, he told me, yes, uh, I went and visit him and then I saw this thruster, I saw the chamber, the vacuum chamber, you um, know, um, I understood that this thruster can not only be used for missions in low earth orbits, uh, but also they can be used, can be used in other orbits, high orbits either for going to the moon and beyond. And I found that fascinating. So uh, we partner, we went for gain contracts, uh, from the European Union, you know, funding contracts, uh, etc. Uh, and uh, in 2019, uh, after we failed on our um, uh submission for a European proposal, we decided to found m the company because um, uh, we knew that building a space tech takes a lot of time and it's uh, very complicated. So we knew that the time, uh, the time to build the company and start working on the tech was now. Now I'm talking in 2019 already five years ago. And we did it and we founded the company and uh, here we are. So. But it was uh, probably a combination of uh, being at the right place, uh, on the right time.

Speaker C: I also uh, read that you have many more projects that are not even similar. They are in parallel with this, let's say the one that started. Right?

Speaker B: Yes, you're right. You're very wrong. You know, uh, I mean yes, we have several projects, but that was actually, that was the sake of testing. Uh, you know, I didn't want to focus on several projects. I wanted to focus only on one project mainly building that thruster, building that electric propulsion system. But you know, the arena for uh, competing for funding grass in, in the EU is very, very challenging, very competitive. So since our first proposal did not so, uh. Go through. Um, we had another idea that was even more complicated than the electric propulsion trusted, more disruptive. And we applied for something that we call future um, Emerging Technologies Open program which is fed open. Uh, today is called uh, EIC Pathfinder. Uh, and this is the type of funding grants that you get when you have a very disruptive, groundbreaking idea. And when the first one didn't go, I went for the second one, you see. And uh, I. I put up a team. I invested all the money I have left from my consulting company. And uh, we put on this proposal and we won it, you see. So we ended up also building, uh. Not all. So we ended up building uh. A re entry system, you see. And this reentry system was also using superconductors. And it has the particularity that, um, you know, it can. It can optimize the mass of thermal protection systems. That you need on your spacecraft to reenter. So, um, the principle is very simple. You, uh. You have to uh. Um. You have to generate, uh, large magnetic fields. And these, uh, magnetic fields can interact with the ionized plasma. That results out of the friction, uh, between the spacecraft and the atmosphere during reentry. And because of this, you can push away the plasma that is impacting the spacecraft. Minimizing the heat fluctures and the heat loads that the spacecraft is taking. And therefore, uh, increasing the safety of the cargo, um, either astronauts or uh, payload. And also allowing for mitigating what is called the communications blackout. Which is called the famous seven minutes of terror that you have when you um. When capsule ah, reentered the atmosphere. Normally you have an interruption of the communications. But you don't know whether the capsule entered or didn't enter. So, uh, this was a really cool project. And, uh, we put up on a huge consortium of 10 people, 10 partners, 10 entities we wanted. And then there was only one project. And you cannot build a company only with one project. So we went for other projects and then we won another contract for east for building this time electrical joint. This electrical joint, um, was very particular because also uses superconductors and it's used to transport power. So, uh, the issue with power in spacecraft and in space is that, uh. The more power you need to move, uh, larger spacecraft, you need larger cable systems, you see. And they can be very heavy and very uh, inefficient. Uh, with size. No. So you have. You can have a lot of losses. Um, normally, uh, I mean in things like planes and ships and vessels, uh, the cabling systems for power management and distribution baked out mostly 30%, 40% of the total weight. You know. And in the case of space with superconductors we could reduce that weight um down to you know, to 5%. Maybe we can reduce up to 90% of the total weight. And, and that was a cool thing to do. And um, we did this electrical hardness for scientific instrumentation using a uh, ESA project and an ESA mission that is called Athena. And uh, we finished that project in 2023. And uh, yeah we did that and then uh, yeah we needed Steve money so we had to keep bootstrapping and uh, we did other projects like for the United States space for Yes, I, I, I consider myself a very innovative person. So I did project or so for using the propulsion system as a plasma torch for fertilizing plastic garbage from the oceans. So there's a way to uh, process the plastic waste uh that you have on the ocean, uh when you treat it with plasma in uh a uh, inner or vacuum, uh uh environment you can generate gases, uh like hydrogen and uh CO2 and that way hydrogen, you can use hydrogen for generating electricity and CO2 or CO, you can use it for other applications, you see. So um, that is what I call uh, the terrestrial application of a space technology. So uh, that one we didn't win it uh, uh unfortunately even though uh, I consider the issue of plastic uh waste on the oceans a quite big issue, uh you know, for uh, uh sustainability for uh, the green economy. But uh, uh that is in the nature of startups you need to keep crown all the time.

Speaker C: Yeah, that indeed sounds like a really um, interesting journey um as you're going through and it sounds to me that it's really at the forefront of the development. So it's like everything that you do with a scientific breakthrough or it has to be or you use uh, yeah,

Speaker B: I mean I did a master in business innovation and I can um, assure you that uh uh the, the, the level of disruptivity uh is very high you see. But uh, startups that are uh, being disruptive are not uh, always the startups that uh, are successful um, getting fun. As a matter of fact many of the startups today, you know, they build their solutions around uh, incremental innovations, you see, not disruptive innovations. And uh, the issue with incremental, with disruptive solutions is that uh sometimes the market is, cannot understand them, uh, sometimes the market uh uh, cannot adapt them because they are barrels for innovation. You know, like electric cars, you know how, how long it takes to get electric cars moving even In Germany for example, you know, which is like the Mecca of car manufacturing, you know, we are lagging behind competitors in China and other countries. So um, it is at the forefront but uh, at this. Cool. But it's not always uh, the most easy way to get successful. So you always have to uh. It's a fine balance between how do you present your idea to the world and how this idea is adapted and how good uh, the world's prepared to take it. You see, um, I don't know if you remember when we have these tube televisions, you know, like the, the Cabo 2 television and when the flat screens came, you know, that was a huge thing. You know there was, it took time until the people, you know, move forward. Or exactly the same with the mobile phone, for example. Well, you know, everyone was using Nokia, Ericsson, BlackBerry, you know, and all of the sudden somebody came with a smartphone, uh, Apple at that time, you see. And that uh, that market achieved between um, you know, an old technology and a new technology and sometimes good innovations and disruptive innovations, they don't make it to the market because the barriers or innovations are very high. So that is something that you always need to consider if you are going to work on a uh, disruptive solution.

Speaker C: Because I do think that there is a very well known problem that there is uh, like a research that happens in the lab at the universities. And there is also something that like an industry takes. An industry takes uh, like 1% or even maybe, I don't know less from that. And but I guess that you started and you proceeding as an enabler. So you see like you try to find the solutions within the research that can be taken into the industry. Is this correct?

Speaker B: That is correct. That is why we went the agency for this rock with innovations for Spring. And uh, uh, we tried to get the technology, you know, from the lab to the market. Actually we tried really hard to push it because uh, as you mentioned, and that's rightfully mentioned, there's a huge gap between that transition between the lab and the market. And that is the transition where uh, investors uh, perceive the highest level of risk, you see, because um, uh, you still don't have uh, a ready to market product, you see, the product is still in development, etc. Etc. So um, uh. If it is true that for example in Germany we are very good uh, uh, inventing things, um, it is also true that we are not so good on um, commercializing those inventions. And that's the fine difference or the big difference between an invention and an innovation. An invention is just that it's a great idea, uh, that have been demonstrated. But an innovation is a product that generate revenues and that uh, capture potential. You measure the potential of your innovation based on the amount of money or value that you can capture um, for your customers once you bring your product to the market.

Speaker C: Also I see that you are, you're basically working on grants so you're not uh, taking private money, let's say you only taking.

Speaker B: We have tried really hard to get investment but uh, sometimes you know having a great idea uh, and having a great technology does not necessarily means that you're going to get an investors because uh, there's two things that you need to understand. First of all you need to understand the nature of the VC landscape where you are moving. And Germany uh, is well known because the majority of investors are uh, extremely risk adverse. Right? So um, if you add to that the complexity of um, the type of technology we are making then um, this is also another factor that uh, increases the perception of risk because um, you know we work with um, uh, starting with the fact that you know the majority of people working on investment etc. They don't have a technological background uh, to understand innovation. And second the concept of super competitive is still something that is not well understood for the majority of the people. Um, and um, this is one of the biggest challenges we have. So no we're not about avoiding investors that we really actually talk to a lot of investors you see. But um, unfortunately we could not find uh, investors that uh, so far that uh, understood the tech or understood the potential of the technology uh, for revolutionizing the market. So uh, uh, that's a two, two different PA of shoes, you see. And that is a process that uh, you can only overcome when you uh, increase the maturity of your technology. When you have an mvp. When you have an MVP that demonstrates the principles of the solution you're bringing to the market. And when you have customers that wants to buy that mvp, we work a lot on talking to customers, getting customer interested on the solution. Uh, but that's a little bit of the fine line that you always find because if your solution is not ready to market, it's very difficult for our customer to uh, commit on a uh, legally binding way to buy your solution because your solution is not ready, it's not a product yet. And customers wants to have uh, products. No, they don't want inventions, they want to have products. They want to have something that they can just. The best is if they can go to the shelves, take it Go to the, to the cash. And then you see that, that, that that uh. That is what customers would like to have. And uh. For the case of big tech which is what I consider we're doing, um, uh. That is not always uh. So easy.

Speaker C: And can you maybe mention briefly who are your customers?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean that's the beautiful part you see because um. We. I could say that uh. We were lucky uh with this tech because um. Compared to other uh spaces out um in Germany and outside Germany in Europe in general we have a solution that fit many type of customers you see. So we have um. Customers that are providing end to end uh uh end to end services. Like uh. For example um. Servicing satellite servicing uh assembly and manufacturing space. Or an um. Active debris removal, uh satellites take all satellites and the orbit these satellites to make sure that these satellites demise on the earth atmosphere. Geo communication satellites, position navigation and timing satellites, Earth observation satellites. And then uh. Since we have a solution that is scalable then we can offer our solution to uh, uh customers that are operating in other orbits like for example breeding cargo from uh low earth orbit to the moon. And even customers that want to do long term missions uh like uh, uh planetary science or uh, uh solar system exploration. So we have a technology basically that uh uh can address uh near term midterm and long term market entry scenarios. So uh. This is the part that uh. For me was really compelling and left uh me to put all my money and everything what I had and I did not have of building this company. On top of that uh. The type of technology we're doing is a dual use technology. So uh. It can be used for uh. Not only for satellite uh propulsion but also it can be used for re entry systems uh and also can be used also for flight control of uh ballistic designs or it can be used for um um designing uh hypersonic vehicles for example. So um. I see ourselves as a very uh game changer um for uh many other applications and many other startups and companies that are working on these type of different solutions. So um. I have to say that in that sense uh uh we have uh been able to uh collect uh almost 40 memorandum of memorandum, uh of understanding, letters of intent, uh letters of endorsement, uh we have a great traction and uh. I think that we can not uh only that um. Since we're working with superconductors, uh we cannot only offer uh solutions for space markets but we can also do it for the um uh aviation market or we can do it also for um the maritime market you see because um uh. Superconductors have a higher maturity uh for operating on Earth uh applications. There is a lot of compounds and a lot of people uh coming uh to space and try to provide services for space. However, um. Uh. We need to see to space for the dimension of the geopolitical conditions. Right? So uh. If you look at Europe, Europe is at the moment uh. Really struggling to keep pace in the current space race. That is Teddy King plays uh worldwide. So um. We used to say or um. Particularly fond of the doctrine that says that um. If you are an economic power on Earth and you want to maintain your economic power on Earth, you have to become a space power, you see. And that it's um. That is coming out of the fact that uh. You know many of the countries in the world are now looking to bring um. Solutions and technologies to space, etc. So the competition is very high. And uh. The key differentiator of this competition is how much money do you invest on growing your ecosystem and supporting the technologies that have the chance to gain. Change the space economy and sadly Euro Germany is not a space nation. See Germany. Germany have a uh. Rather uh. Limited ambitions uh towards space. And there is not really uh. Uh. A coherent uh approach how to position Germany in the corresponding space race at the moment. So yes, there are many, many companies competing. But um. For those companies for example uh. Uh. Founded in Germany, in Europe, um the assets to space and the possibility to grow and. And bring the solutions. Uh great solutions by the way. Whether there's so many companies doing so much cool stuff at the moment. Uh they cannot really uh. Uh. They don't have a market to bring them. You see. They need to. They need to. There's a need for articulating a consumer market, a commercial market for space that uh. Goes beyond uh. The government, uh making the missions um and pulling the things so the companies grow. So um. It remains uh. Really tricky.

Speaker C: Uh.

Speaker B: I can give you an example. There's a small country, uh. Called New Zealand. And um. For example uh. They are doing the same we're doing. You see, they are also using superconductors uh uh. Uh. To integrate it in the same electric propulsion technology that uh. We are building. And uh. The funny part is this. In Europe is Germany the leader on the research of this type of technology. However, New Zealand is going to uh. Apply the first in orbit demonstration of this technology in February next year. So even though Germany had spent uh. And the east, uh. And the European Union has spent millions of euros through uh. The University of Stuka to Develop this technology. The New Zealands are going to be probably the first that bring a commercial product to the market.

Speaker C: Okay, uh, I see. But um, also I guess that are you allowed to sell this technology to let's say China if they want to use it? Is it or it's like a protected and let's say more like a military.

Speaker B: That's a, that's a good question. That's a good question. Listen, as I mentioned before, space have been always traditionally something that happened driven by the space states. So as a matter of fact China uh, has its own program on this technology. You see, they copy the technology from the Germans, replicate the same prototype, uh, was built at the university of being prototypes with super productors and they have a whole program and a whole budget and a whole plan to use this tech in space. Because um, the reality is there's only six nations and now seven with New Zealand that have ah, the heritage to build this technology. Uh, as a matter of fact, uh, this technology development started already in the 60s. And the first country that did uh, start up with this development was Germany in 1962. Then the United States came build their own program, etc. Then uh, Japan came Russia, came Italy, China, ah, and now New Zealand. So what happened was the US gave up the program. The Germans continue in like, let's say low flame type of mode. We neutralized systems and when we submitted our first proposal we um, we partnered with the New Zealand because they uh, were really, really good on superconductors. And uh, we brought them in our proposal. We didn't get the proposal and then they went back to New Zealand and got, I don't know, 7.5 million euros from the New Zealand government to build the tech. And now they're going to demonstrate it. So um, it's not whether we can sell this technology to other countries, it's more about that uh, the development of this type of technology is something that um, uh, relies strongly on the political will. And it is uh, the responsibility of politicians, um, to have the vision

Speaker C: and

Speaker B: uh, the foresight to uh, invest in these kind of technologies. Uh, it's not the case in Germany. Um, but um, um we have, for example we're working with the United States, uh, we're also working in Norway at the moment. So it's not all lost.

Speaker C: But yeah, as you were saying that this industry is also heavily political. So basically you can only I guess partner with companies that are, or governments that your government is friendly with. So this is, I guess this is everywhere like this. But maybe A bit less in let's

Speaker B: say there is an ethical component on uh. Every economical activity, any endeavor, any uh. Business that you're building. And. And uh. And there's also the market, you see. And uh. Markets if you have a product, products and buyers. We call it geopolitical context. Working this type of technology uh with a country like China or Russia is um. This something that I wouldn't do? You see I evaluated uh uh. This in the past. Uh. And uh. Um. I have to use this consideration as the mean to uh. Get support and get attention from politicians and uh. Decision makers. However, I don't think that it will be the ethical thing to do uh under the. The context of the Ukrainian war or the Israeli war etc. Etc. So I think that uh. Every founder have a. A moral and ethical uh responsibility towards uh. What he's doing. Um. So uh. Uh yes, uh, you could engage on going to China and uh. Risking uh being copycat in China and losing your tank etc. Ah and then uh. Yeah giving advantage to a country or a nation that is probably not uh. A frame but rather a foe. And uh. Yeah, nobody wants that. So uh. Yes uh. We try to partner with uh uh allied nations, uh for example New Zealand. But um. In the world of deep tech they are very complex, um. They are very complex um uh. Interrelationships and blocks of um countries and nations working on different type of technology. So for this type of tech um you have the five Eyes group, you have the NATO nations etc ah and for example M have been a sponsor of yeah international events like NATO Joint Air Power uh Conference which is called NATO jcc. We have done this for three years already and uh. Trying to uh feature and uh our tag uh uh for the majority of the ah NATO countries or NATO countries. Um. We have also presented our tag at uh capability briefings of the uh uh Fire Eyes Group and as a matter of fact uh. New Zealand, UK Canada United States and uh. And uh. Australia uh they are working on similar type of type of technology than um. What we're doing. Not the same but they have you know uh. Understood that superconductors, space propulsion spacecraft systems can be uh. Engaged. And at the beginning, at the very beginning the you know in the time of Kobe we work even with Ukrainian company called FPD and uh. This Ukrainian company, uh they have the heritage from the Soviet Union uh for this trusted technology. So we, we tried to work with that uh but then you know, Covid came etc. So um. It's not always that easy to work with nations. And um. I guess the, the easiest part would be to work in the nation where you are developing and building the technology. But sometimes that is even more difficult than going abroad. Uh and this also has to do with the fact that uh. Or the case of Germany, the Ministry of Defense is a very complex organization. Um, um. Which lacks interfaces for talking to small companies. They don't have the channels to talk to small companies to understand what small companies are doing. They are very complex system for procurement of technology, for assessment of technology. So uh, the ones that procures is not the same that assess. The one that assess is not the same that uses the technology. So um. If you are a small company without the means to talk to three different entities within the defense sector in your country, it can become a little bit challenging, I have to say.

Speaker C: Okay, yeah, I see. And um. Maybe to bring it to a bit to the end the conversation, I um, want to ask you because you mentioned that with investors and especially in a hardware or a deep tech it's really difficult to communicate what you're doing. Um, maybe you have an advice for, for the listeners or for I don't know like something that you learned how to communicate actually when it's not straightforward or not something that easily understandable.

Speaker B: That's a tough question. I mean the advice, I mean the advice that I have ah, more than to communicate is you need to understand who are the investors that uh. Can be the potential supporters of your technology. And uh, you need to understand also the way investors think. Um because um. Uh there's two types of investors. You have investors that go after the hype. What they're interested is uh, what is hot, why is the hottest shed in the market. You see. So um, so what you need is. It's a very difficult uh thing to accomplish getting everybody to talk about your solution. Because um. For talking about your solution you need to be successful. You need to have customers that wants to buy your solution. And that is very difficult to achieve if you are in an early stage. You see. So um. That is why um. That is why uh. Before anybody goes into developing or founding a company etc, ah you really need to uh. Understand um. I mean who is resources similar like you. And you really need to um. You know, engage on. On um uh.

Speaker C: Um.

Speaker B: Try to talk to investors etc, Trying to you know, you, you need to. You need to get uh. What I call ambassadors of your tech. People with gravitas with uh uh uh. Low trajectory of success etc. Advisors. No advisory board members, um, people that will do that without charging you, that push your technology. You need to do that. And um, before doing that, because otherwise it's going to be very difficult to attract investors. Um, uh, in the sense of the communication, um, it's always a double sharp sword because, um, if you, uh, communicate too much about your tech, then uh, potential competitors will copy. And if they have money, resources and a, uh, better network of investors or, you know, money givers, uh, they might even surpass you and uh, and take over your great idea. You see. So there's always a, uh, a fine line between, uh, going stealth or, uh, going to the, to the outer world and have nothing. What you need to do to avoid that is you need to, you need to make sure that you own your idea, that you protect your idea. Ah. And that you have, at least, if you don't have the money, at least you have an idea. What is it, what you need to do in order to protect your idea by filing patents, etcetera, uh, uh, working with a research, uh, institution, etcetera. And uh, basically, um, yeah, uh, try to protect what you're doing. Uh, on the learning side, I think that before you engage in any type of fundraising activity, you need to seriously study the market and study the investors. Because my experience, uh, at least in Germany, was that, uh, you know, many investors, um, they don't want to help you. They see that you are, you are enthusiastic, that you are, um, motivated, passionate about your idea. Ah. And all what they want is, uh, information. They take your information, they grab that, they get it. They, they will ghost you after they got your debt. They will ghost you after they got your technical information. I mean, I experience, I have to tell you, I experience a lot, especially Germany. I uh, think that uh, the culture of uh, VC in Germany is quite. It's not really like, uh, uh, startup friend, I would say. So, uh, my recommendation is, uh, watch out who you talk to because, uh, normally investors are, uh, uh, wolf cheating on the. On. On the skin of a sheep.

Speaker C: Okay. Okay.

Speaker B: Be careful because, um, you know, many investors will take your idea, go to other investors, search for a founding team, and do it better, faster, and, and, and you're gone.

Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. Ah, okay. That's, That's a bit hard, but that's.

Speaker B: Yeah, but it is what it is. I mean, it's part of the game is this, um, you just need to know that this is, this is the way the, the way that the game goes. And uh, uh, if you know this before, you know, then you need to be prepared. You know, it's like uh, a, uh, one of the common, uh, common mistakes that we did at the beginning is as we started talking to investors, etc. We were so eager, you know, to get investors. We sent information without getting an NDA. We provided uh, information uh, without uh, uh, knowing the investors. No, um, so I said that I, I uh, uh, do now is this, um, um, I don't talk to investors or I don't engage with investors. I don't know. If, if you want to invest in my company first you have to know, you have to know my team. You know, we have to go sit down, have a coffee, you see, uh, uh, let us, let us meet in a bar, have a couple of drinks, uh, and uh, uh, you have to be the one that drives the conversation. You have to be the one that make the questions like uh, okay, how many portfolio companies you have? Ah, uh, how successful, how successful at these portfolio companies? What added value can you bring to the company? Are you bringing smart money or this is just money? An investor is not only an investor. An investor, you know, um, I learned this from an investor in New York is an investor has to be a kind of a friend because um, a friend will not make you lose money, you see. So, so this is for an investor you have to become a kind of a friend because as ah, a friend, you will not make your friend to lose money because he's your friend. You see, and that's just a little bit that there is uh, a whole psychological component on a relationship with an investor. Especially um, because of the fact that they have the money and you need the money. So it's that codependency there. In order to break that codependency, you know, you have to be, you know, you have the money, I have the solution, let's make something great out of that. And both makes money. And uh, uh, that's is key because um, the, the you know, building deep tech, build space technology or defense technology, all of these things, you're going to need a lot of money to do it if you don't have it your own.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, but this is a good, really good advice. Thank you. And it was really interesting. Thank you for your time.

Speaker A: Talking to Manuel really highlights how much more there is to space innovation than just the technology. From securing funding to dealing with regulations and convincing stakeholders. It's a constant balancing act between science, business and politics. His journey from working with engineering materials across different industries to identify new applications for high temperature superconductors shows that breaking into the space industry isn't just for aerospace engineers. Sometimes it's about seeing opportunities and going for them. If you enjoyed this conversation and want to learn more about the intersection of space science business in space, make sure to check out neutron star systems and follow their journey. And if you like this episode, share it with someone who's curious about space. And stay tuned for more stories from the frontiers of innovation. But this is it for today. Until next time,

Speaker B: Sat.