S07E01: Accessible Research is Good Research (with Steve Levine and Kari Bassett-Levine)

Speaker A: Accessibility gets baked in that it's not an afterthought. It is just part of the thought process in designing good research.

Speaker B: You're listening to trip, the Research Inclusion Project. We're your hosts, Katrina Noel M. And Kristin Spraggins. Welcome, everyone, to the inaugural episode of season seven of trip, the Research Inclusion Project. And we have two guests with us today, which is very exciting for many reasons, um, primarily for me personally, because I have worked with both of these fantastically smart researchers and doers and people involved with the Accessible Insights Consortium that's been around for a few years. So we're going to talk a little bit about the great work that they're doing individually and as part of that group. But I'd love to just start with a couple introductions. So, Steve, why don't you go ahead first and introduce yourself and a little bit about what brought you to the idea of Inclusive Insights or representative insights, why that is an important thing for you. And then we will. We will move over to Carrie.

Speaker C: Thank you so much, Katrina. Um, yeah, I got involved in a kind of roundabout way. Inclusiveness has been a part of my life ever since I was born. My father was a veteran in the army, and he was a prisoner of war. He escaped and he was shot in the leg and he wore a brace. And so I was always conscious of wanting to do more to help people in those types of situations. Fast forward to being in the research world. I didn't realize it was a thing. And then suddenly I'm at a Quirks conference, and I see Verizon and some other folks speaking about inclusiveness and research. It just really hit home with me. And I said, I need to get involved in this. And lo and behold, here I am five years later.

Speaker B: Love it. And, Carrie, what about for you?

Speaker A: So, uh, not as exciting of a story as Steve, but, uh, representation and inclusiveness has been an important thing to me for an extended period of time. And I had the opportunity to raise my hand in several work situations to really bring representation in research to the forefront of the work that I was doing, including within representation, uh, in advertising, and being really thoughtful in that space. And so I had the opportunity to meet some really amazing people who were doing great work in the accessibility space. And actually how I met Katrina was at a Quirks conference several years ago where she did this amazing presentation on the representation of people with disabilities in advertising that really spoke to the type of work that I was interested in and that I was doing as well. That was like an initial kind of, like, spark um, but also got involved with several others who were working on creating what eventually became the Accessible Insights Consortium, which is a part of the Insights Association. And Steve and I are both now proud co leads of that organization with uh, a few others. And it's been amazing to see the success of that consortium really take off and to see so many within the industry reach out and find value in what we're doing and want to get involved.

Speaker B: I do just have to put a, a plug in there because there are a lot of these like well intended groups, organizations, committees, all of those types of things. Um, and I really think both the involvement from the agency and the brand side on this initiative has been really, it's all driven by volunteers. Right. And it's just a great success story I think, about volunteer energy and momentum.

Speaker D: And you guys are making this podcast super seamless because actually something I wanted to ask you both is just some of those updates. It seems like it's been quite an evolution around the um, Accessibility Insights Consortium. And um, it sounds like there's a lot of breadth that's happening on what started out, um, and I'd love to hear more just about with that framework in mind and some of the updates and evolution.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: The Accessible Insights Consortium started as this small, scrappy thing and it's really evolved, especially with the guidance of, of the Insights Association. And one of the really exciting things that we have been working on within the Accessible Insights Consortium is a toolkit. This toolkit is meant to be a starting point for researchers who are looking to bring accessibility into the heart of the, the work that they are doing. We found that several of the companies that we were talking to didn't know where to start. So this was meant to be a starting point and it was created initially for a conference and then released as uh, part of the creation of the Accessible Insights Consortium, officially under the Insights Association. So it's been out for about a year or two at this point, but what we just did was release an update to the toolkit. So this toolkit is available on the Insights Association's webpage. The Accessible Insights Consortium, um, has its own page now and we're very excited about our own webpage which has information on how to attend meetings with uh, the Accessible Insights Consortium, uh, what our goals are as a consortium, and then how to access the toolkit so it is intentionally available to all. So anyone who is in the Insights community can go there and download this toolkit and make use of it. This update that we did about uh, a month ago really Expanded what was in the toolkit. And that was based on just the creative thought process of those within the consortium on what else felt like would be important to include. So there were some great conversations up front about wanting more, uh, more checklists, like a guideline to say, like, oh, I'm going to do a qual study and when setting up my qual study, what are the steps I should take before it even gets going? How should I make sure that sessions run smoothly? What can I do after the fact? So that really got some nice depth in this toolkit. We also really expanded out some of our guidelines on presenting accessibly, whether that's in person or online. There are guidelines on how to do more thoughtful presentations. I was really excited about building in example charts and tables that had instructions on how to do alt text for them. That was a big push specifically for researchers in wanting to be thoughtful, uh, in the way that we present data that uh, it is done thoughtfully. And so we have several examples now in the toolkit on doing the setup of those charts so that they can, can be accessible.

Speaker C: If I may just jump in, one of the things that I've had the privilege of doing since being part of the council is I've spoken at probably in the last year and a half, maybe six conferences, and the question I keep hearing over and over again is, where do I start? Because you see a big toolkit and it can be very overwhelming. And little wins are big wins when it comes to accessibility. And so often, like Harry mentioned, we just try to start with something very simple, can be just images and putting text around those images. Once you get to the point of doing that habitually, then you can move on to something else. And it's just so exciting because the one common thread in all those conferences is that people are energized and excited and want to be a part of it and they want to do the right thing. So I'm really optimistic about where it's

Speaker A: all going as a result of one of those conferences. I had someone reach out to me recently, knowing that I was involved in the Accessible Insights Consortium, um, and that I had given some tips about doing accessible research. And he reached out to say that the company he was working with had recently had a challenge and was looking for some advice. They had done a project that didn't go as intended. They didn't ask about accommodations upfront, and they ended up having a neurodivergent respondent who ended up needing some support and had trouble comprehending some of the questions that were being asked in that focus group. So it ended up not being a positive experience. As a result of that, I shared the newly released toolkit with him and walked through specifically some of the guidelines that he could use and share with the rest of his team to ensure a smoother and, you know, more respectful way of supporting someone. He and his team were super grateful about the toolkit and having that advice and shared it out within their organization. So it was really encouraging to see these steps taken as a result of realizing that the research had not gone as intended and saying like, we can do better next time. And it was great to be able to provide the toolkit to say like, well, here's a starting point.

Speaker D: It's a great success story. It's always nice to hear that, you know, we can learn from our failures. Right. We can never take the easy way and learn. Right. And I loved earlier when Steve, you were, you had a very personal story about how you kind of got involved. How have you used the toolkit in your workflows to make an impact?

Speaker C: Thank you for the question. Life experience is so important in this. And one of the things I just would be remiss in not mentioning is that when I did speak at some of these conferences, I often had a co speaker with me, Kristen, who's blind, who's just an amazing human being. And she would often go through a standard questionnaire on her screen reader to the point where people would start apologizing to her people in the research community and say, oh my God, we don't realize what we've been doing to you all these years, or whatever. And she's like, no, you're here today. That's what's important. So to answer your question, as far as how I've applied it, I like to think of the universal design benefits, um, that have come out of it. Like I was just telling Kerry this last week. I recently had a client I've worked both on. Let me just clarify something on the supplier side and on the client side. So I kind of look at things through both lenses, if you will. And I'm now doing my own thing at Strat360 and a client came to me wanting to populate a spreadsheet. Uh, it was very involved in very technical one on one interviews in the healthcare industry. And so I took a look at it and I thought to myself, okay, what can I do to make this accessible? Because if I could somehow make it accessible, I think it'll basically translate into something that'll be really user friendly for them and lo and behold, I used a combination of human beings, myself, Excel programming and some AI to do something for them that actually brought the cost down a third of the price of what their partners were going to charge them because everybody was looking at it so differently in such a complicated way and by me simplifying it. And um, I'm probably halfway through the project right now and they seem really happy with the results and they've even come back and they've customized a few things and I was able to do that because of the human part of it that's involved. And I think it's really served beneficially to me as a researcher to think in terms of accessibility because now I'm designing better designs and methodologies. So.

Speaker B: And I think it's so important about the spirit of this group because I remember, I mean many meetings about none of us have the best practices up our sleeve. That's why we're here, that's why we're seeing the presentations at the conferences. And I agree Steve, like I have rarely seen a more impactful quote, demo, right? It was like a demo of what not to do. And yes, the collective shame in the audience was quite high in those moments. But I think it's just in the spirit of, and that's really what we do on, on this show as well is to say like we don't have all the answers but if we're going to get a bunch of smart people to think things through together, starting with the design of things and just knowing our goal is to get every project or engagement, you know, one step closer to being as accessible for everyone as possible, then we're all doing a good job. But I'm wondering as well, because you must you now that you two are kind of at the forefront of this group and this, this dialogue, are you hearing about any new developments or progress being made either from a tool standpoint, methodology standpoint? That's helping because I remember a couple years ago we were, there was a lot of technology barriers, right that were either within the industry or tools we were using that weren't necessarily purpose built. So I'm just selfishly curious if there's any new developments that you've both heard about by being in this position.

Speaker C: Something just real simple that you know this will serve as a tip to your audience actually is that there are so many baked in uh, solutions now with Excel, for example with Word. Adobe now has some really good baked in solutions that once I direct people on how to access those and what they mean and how to leverage them. They're on their way. You know, you're not going to knock out 100% of the issues that come up, but heck, if I can knock out 50 to 75 by using the tools that are already there for me that I've already paid for by owning those particular licenses or those products, that's a win. And like I said, those little wins become big wins. And then there might be some more extensive things we have to do as human beings where we might need to bring in some experts or like you mentioned earlier, Kristen life experiences where I would have someone like Kristen go through it, who I mentioned earlier, my co presenter and say, you know, how does this questionnaire or this discussion guide come across to you? What would you suggest the moderator do differently? Or what would you suggest we program differently in Qualtrics to make this a better questionnaire? And that's like to me, the last step. One of the things that Kerry mentioned earlier that I didn't want to interrupt but you know, it's not monolithic. It's far from monolithic. I mean we're dealing with neurodivergence, we're dealing with so many other disabilities that we have to, you know, really look at it as a big umbrella and trying to bring in as many different users as possible to be a part of that process to help us solve what we're up against.

Speaker A: Is also a whiz at ah, using AI to support uh, his accessible work.

Speaker D: It's like you're tap dancing to the, everybody's tune on this, which is actually something I wanted to kind of uncover and I've spent a lot of time kind of looking at research from an AI lens and then also thinking about an accessibility standpoint. There's a lot that's getting fed into these algorithms and getting in one to LLMs. What are some watch outs that you're seeing in the field? There's obviously the, the progression and the counterbalancing. And Steve, you alluded earlier to how you're kind of baking some of that in to some of your, your workflows. Do you guys see a next gen for the toolkit as it comes to things that are being built within AI,

Speaker A: I think it's about the thoughtful use of AI and having AI support human work. So one of the ways that I will use AI is for reducing cognitive load when I am designing questions to go into either a survey or a discussion guide. And so AI is great in helping me determine a reading level for the questions that I am using. Uh, and in workshopping how to make the language that I am using easier to understand. So it is helping me out. But I am using my own judgment in what I am then implementing. So I have personally used it in that sense where I've gone through standard sets of questions that I use again and again and have used it to set those questions up in ways that are less complex and easier to follow.

Speaker D: Have you pressure tested against the, uh, toolkit at all? I was just curious. Have you tried to use the toolkit and kind of fed the toolkit into some of your questionnaires to see if it did a good job or not? I was just curious if you've tried that yet.

Speaker A: I have tried using the refinement and the tips that are within the toolkit on reducing cognitive load when designing questions, and I have pressure tested that. A colleague and I did a fun, like, case study where we tried out several different ways of asking questions and which were going to be the easiest ones to understand and like, lead to the best answers.

Speaker C: I was going to talk about something having to do with alt text and AI. So one of the things I was doing is I was applying AI to alt text. Alt text for the viewers or listeners, um, that aren't familiar with the term, is basically when you have an image to make sure that a screen reader can pick up the text so that it's described to somebody who's blind. And when using AI, I was getting beautifully in depth explanations of the image. So I said, you know what, I'm going to pressure test this, um, by going to some people that are using screen readers and see what they think. And they're like, steve, this doesn't work. This is too long. We want just something to the point. So then I went back to AI and said, be more succinct in how you were going to explain this particular image. Then it started to work much better. So the prompts had to be reinvented so that we didn't just say put all text against this image, but put succinct alt text against this image, keep it brief, in some cases even keep it down to less than 10 words. And then I was getting better results. I think that again, you still need people to test it. But at the end of the day, AI did help, because if I had a lot of images that I needed to do, at least I could do a bunch of them with a combination of myself and alt text and I could get there much quicker and better.

Speaker B: It just goes back to that. If you help somebody out, the rest of us benefit. Right. Because who wants long, cumbersome, complicated text? Right. I just, I feel like I work with the group that just always keeps coming back to that about those core design principles improve things for all of us.

Speaker A: And it's the same when we think about question formats, when we ask questions in a more simple way. It definitely helps those with cognitive disabilities. It also helps for a better survey experience for everyone who is busy and has a lot on their plate and wants to be able to provide the answers quickly without having to think too much about what is being asked of them. One of the things that I have explored and validated that is in the toolkit is about the question formats that are easiest to respond to versus hardest. And so questions that don't give cues about the response options. If you say something like, how does this product meet your needs? And it's a scale of 1 to 5 and not everything is labeled. That is harder than if I explain upfront on a scale of 1 to 5 and I give anchors for those within the question I am asking, that's easier to understand and then easiest of all to understand is where I would say, like, how well does this product meet your needs? And rather than a scale, I give value to the responses where it can range from, this absolutely meets my needs to I don't need this at all. And each point is labeled. So no one has to sit there going, what does three mean?

Speaker C: Yeah, it's just better research at the end of the day. And one thing, insights association. I mean, not one thing they're bringing to the table, but something that's on my mind that they're really bringing to the table has been this research on research initiative that we're in the midst of doing right now. And I can't overstate the value of that because where it really surprised me in some areas is that when we would talk to various segments of the population, they had different takeaways. For example, we didn't know if we should be direct in our questioning, saying to somebody right up front, you know, are you blind? Do you have any type of disability that we should be aware of where you would need an accommodation? We wanted to be sensitive, we wanted to be empathetic. And the results that came back were fantastic because through their life experience, they would say to us, no, be direct, just say it. Ask me exactly what it is. Neurodivergent folks, they had their own perspective as well, which was really interesting. So again, it's not a monolithic group. I think as a result have done Better with our, I'll call it demographic questions because we're actually talking to the people that we're asking these questions to and finding out what's the language that you prefer. Where would you like the sequencing of these questions? And it's working because now we're coming out with a toolkit that has those suggestions baked in and that's what we're in the process of doing now. As far as like current initiatives is this huge research on research initiative where I believe we're going to be winding it down probably in the fall I think is the goal. And then we'll do our analysis and come out with a report on that as well.

Speaker B: Um, that's CRC ready or spring ready? When should we be marking our calendars to read all about it? For those of our listeners who are less aware of the Insights Association's events, there is a corporate researchers conference in the fall. You know, you should check it out online. But often a lot of announcements get either made there or in the spring. That's exciting, Steve. So other than downloading the current version of the toolkit and keeping our eyes and ears open for the research on research results, any other ideas that either of you have for things that folks can do right now to make their next project more open and accessible from an inclusivity is from an um, accessibility standpoint. Anything else just sort of top of mind as takeaways.

Speaker C: I always start with alt text just because it's such an important feature of questionnaires and language. Um, whenever you have an image, it's important to define that image. And I think it's just such a low hanging fruit that we can all basically start with right away. So whenever you have an image, whether you're on social media, I mean that's how I kind of started it. I didn't just immediately start doing it in my questionnaires, but I started using it in my everyday life, if you will. So if I was on social media and I was sharing an image, I made sure that I added alt text to that image and now it's just part of what I do. I think that's probably the simplest thing to do. The other thing I would say is use the checkers that are built into Word PowerPoint. Just start using those all and use them towards the end of what you're doing. So that way, you know, if you're making draft revisions, they're captured as well. And I think that's something that people can just start doing right away. And if you're having Trouble finding it. You can always reach out to one of us or just go to help and you'll see that on the toolbar there's usually an icon for accessibility.

Speaker A: The Accessible Insights Consortium itself is happy to be a resource to folks, so we meet on a quarterly basis. The information on how to sign up and attend those meetings is available on the Accessible Insights Consortium's webpage under the Insights Association. Uh, we will have within each time that we meet a fabulous guest speaker. We also have opportunities where people share their wins, their questions, their challenges. So it is a very nice human way to learn more about accessibility from others who are working on implementing it. Uh, and it's also a great way to get involved if you are interested in collaborating on the tools that we are working on or the resources that we provide. I will say, uh, for our next upcoming Accessible Insights Consortium meeting, we have an amazing guest speaker who will be joining us. Uh, her name is Meryl Evans. She is a fabulous speaker and consultant and she will be presenting on our July 8th meeting on designing research and marketing that works for more people without creating more work. So that will be a great entry point for a lot of folks who are looking to learn more.

Speaker D: Well, you both have just given m me so many ideas and illumination of everything to do with accessibility Insights Consortium. I would love if just to kind of tie all of this in a bow. Looking ahead, if each of you could kind of give me your perspective on this in 10 years. What is that vision or wish list that you would have for the future of their research and people to continue to grow and understand what the importance of the consortium does and what could that look like, or if there are any other, like, futuristic thoughts that you would like to kind of leave our audience with.

Speaker C: So for me, one of the things that I'm, um, um, doing a lot of research on recently is the business opportunities for organizations by making their work more accessible. We're talking about a market that's worth trillions of dollars. That's no exaggeration, trillions. I mean, when I started doing the research, I validated that through many different AI tools and search engines because it just blew me away. And I'm really big on when people say, you know, I want to do it, but it's going to cost us money, or I'm hitting kind of a wall internally to appeal to the managers or their manager's manager and just make that business case for it. And I feel like once we're really good at making that business case, everything will become accessible and I think that's my ultimate goal is that it's not something we need to persuade people to do, it's just part of their DNA.

Speaker A: When we're thinking about research, the ultimate goal is for it to be thought of at the beginning. And when designing research, that accessibility gets baked in that it's not an afterthought or oops, I messed up and now I have to go fix something. It is just part of the thought process in designing good research because accessibility is just a key to designing good research.

Speaker B: Hear, hear. I love the call to actions, the concrete tips and advice. This is such a great, solid way to kick off the season of Tripp. I really thank you both for being available today to come talk to us because this is actionable folks. This is concrete. Links are going to be in the show, notes to download all this good stuff and stay tuned to those quarterly meetings. I know they're really inspiring when I get a chance to go, especially when they when there is content presented by external experts. So Steve, Carrie, you are our external experts today, so thank you for that. We really enjoyed learning and catching up and getting all the updates from you both.

Speaker C: The Research Inclusion Project is hosted by Kristen Spraggins and Katrina Noel and is produced in partnership with Hasty Storytelling. Hasty Storytelling is a creative agency that specializes in qualitative market research solutions, video and audio production, graphic design, animation and photography. Trip is available wherever you get your podcasts.