#90 "Accountability vs Toxicity " with Dave McGlynn (Pa)

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Speaker C: This will be episode number 90 of the Tip of the Spear Leadership podcast. I have my new friend, Dave McGlynn. Dave, thanks for coming on today. I, I appreciate uh, you taking the time in this, uh, when we had some technical issues and hopefully we'll be able to get through it without more technical issues. So Dave, thanks for joining us.

Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely brother. Thanks for having me.

Speaker C: Why don't we talk about micromanaging? That seems to be a hot topic and not a lot of people seem to like it. I know that you spoke personally about how, you know, in your time in the department that, that uh, you know, micromanaging has come up and uh, yeah, I know you wanted to get into that. So let's jump in.

Speaker D: You know, I, I appreciate it. It's, I mean, it can be perceived as a loaded question. We don't, nobody likes it because uh, it's, it's, it's literally condescending at nature. Right? Um, it is, it is physical condos, uh, being condescended. Um, you know, when someone is, uh, constantly micromanaging you, it's uh, it's, it breaks everything. It breaks mutual trust. It devalues a person. It makes the person, it increases anxiety, makes people work, uh, under a level of pressure that they're not able to perform properly because they constantly feel like they're being set up for failure or they're facing an entrapment. It also discredits any of the value the person has to be in their position. When someone's being micromanaged, they're feeling like, well, Jesus, you know, like, am I even qualified to do this? You know, is, is this something that I'm supposed to be doing? Am I just not cut out for it? And then they start to second guess themselves. They start to worry whether or not they're capable or qualified to be, uh, the person making the decisions they're supposed to make, et cetera. And the issue we run into is, is you get these people in these leadership roles or in these supervisory roles that, you know, they, they have their own anxiety and their own trust levels to begin with. Right, right. And then they promote into these positions and they didn't fully embrace or learn the spots of their job and they promote out of their job. So, you know, there's this book called Peter Principle and it resonates with me. It's, it's a dry kind of hard read. But you know, the, the, the general synopsis is that there are many organizations where people promote beyond their capabilities. And what we run into is that especially in our thing in the fire service is we have people that were either under qualified or uh, they were technically qualified and not, or technically certified but not qualified to do the position. And they, to compensate for such, they, they point to their rank and they use and abuse their rank as well. I told you to do this. I'm your boss. You will check with me. Instead of deferring to the fact that like, hey, you might be my SME on this, my subject matter expert. This is something that's in your wheelhouse. This is something that we promoted you to handle because we know that, we recognize that you are capable of handling this type of tasker or this type of assignment, et cetera. But what happens is, is when people micromanage, like I said, you create this heightened level of anxiety. People start working under a level of pressure. So if there's a tasker that they have to complete or an assignment they have to complete, they don't. They don't. Their focus isn't completely on it. They're trying to complete it as fast as possible to avoid any kind of scrutiny or being in trouble. So you get sub poor results and, and then it also potentially can undermine the person with their subordinates. So when the subordinates, uh, in our thing in the fire service, you know, when a firefighter sniff out that you're obsolete. So like you're a lieutenant, right. So if your captain's in there constantly micromanaging you, your firemen eventually are going to be like, well, we're just going to pass up the lieutenant because he don't matter. We're just going to go Right to the captain if we don't get our way. And it's even worse when you, when you climb the ranks even higher into, like, my position. And you, you have someone that will micromanage you, that will create a Persona that the chief doesn't matter. Like, I've worked for some shitty chiefs and that can be so. But when the chief is qualified, certified, capable and experienced to do their job, you need to let them do their job. Especially because if there was to be a conversation between who should be doing this, you can't hold your weight. Yeah, you're in charge technically, but you're ruining the outcome of what we all are working toward when you have these trust issues and you micromanage the process. So go on. I just, I'll go on about this all day long, but it's just. That's one of the things that I find. It's a problem today. It's always been a problem. But as we work toward improving how we do business, we need to try to create an environment where these micromanagers no longer exist and that they understand their role. Like, yeah, you're in charge, but there are people who you have underneath you for a reason. You have to assign them the taskers and allow them to do what they're supposed to do. And you'll be surprised at the results. You'll be actually quite happy with shit. That guy was able to handle that.

Speaker C: Yeah. And you know, the other thing too is, and you kind of spoke about like, you know, why are we going to go to the Lieutenant? We can just go to the captain and get whatever we want anyway. You know, that is one side of it. But I also think, and I know you know this, but I think the other side of it too is a lot of the guys that are squared away and want to be there for the right reasons are going to see the reality. Right? They're going to be like, uh, like the right one. The good ones are going to be like, uh, hey, lt, I don't know why the captain's continuously undermining you. He came to us and said this, thought you should know. Like, they're going to say something to you, or they're going to say something to the effect of, you should probably talk to them because we're getting a run around right now and that guy's going behind your back, you know? And I think again, you can never control what other people do. All you can do is control how you act or how you react. Excuse me. Right. I can't control if you're going to micromanage. That's the biggest. This is kind of what I wanted. Where I wanted to swing into this with it as well is, you know, if you're the chief of the or you're the battalion or the captain, right? You're the captain. And you're, you're continuously micromanaging and undermining me. I can't control what you're doing, right. All I can do is react. And you know, you do have to put your foot down and be like, yo, like I don't know what the you think you're doing. You need to stop. You're undermining me. Are you micromanaging me? You know, however you want to deliver that. And there's a, there's a certain decorum in a way to say it too, because again, at the end of the day, they're still your boss. And you're gonna throw gasoline on the fire by saying something in general. But there comes a point where you have to put your foot down because if you don't stop it or say something about it, you're condoning it yourself, right? You know, you do. Do you need to make this gigantic skeptical of it or make this gigantic thing of it? No, you don't. But you do need to have a one on one and stop it. You know, like there is something to be said about the buck stops with you. But you know, you have to be held accountable to that as well, I think. I mean, I've had micromanagers and I said stuff to them. Sometimes it blew up in my face. Other times, there's been a couple times I've had, I had a captain who has now become one of my favorite people because that person and I were like oil and water and a lot of micromanaging, a lot of, a lot of overstepping their bounds. And we just, after like two or three years, we had a little bit of an explosion. The conversation started out a little tense over, over a situation. Then it became less tense once we had an agreement. And you know what? Every time I needed that person to be the captain, before that they were the captain, they just micromanaged the shit out of me. Or they, yeah, they micromanaged me or they just undermined me. And we had our talk. And then guess what? More situations came up where I was like, all right, dude, we fucking talked about this. Let's see how it. And he was great. He was absolutely fantastic. Did a total 180, total attitude change, everything. And it was awesome. And all it took Was me being like, you and I need to fucking talk. And I didn't see things the way he saw it. He didn't see some of the things the way I saw it. And guess what? We were professional adults and grown, um, grown men and professional firemen to be able to make an adult decision to meet each other in the middle. Because nothing he asked was irrational. It was just very overbearing. Everything I asked, I don't think was very irrational. And he agreed. Some of the stuff we were a little bit of an impasse on, but we compromised. And then after that, he wasn't really a micromanager anymore. In totality, he stopped. And that's all it takes sometimes. But again, it's not what you preach. It's what you tolerate. So if you have a micromanager or you are being micromanaged, you need to say something.

Speaker D: Yeah, you need to. You definitely need to say something. You definitely need to not be submissive. And I don't mean to be combative, but you definitely not need to not be submissive. You need to entertain. You need to let the. Bring it to the person's attention. Like, hey, I feel like you're. You're micromanaging this process. I feel like you're. You're. You're not putting the faith and trust in me. Um, I feel like this is not conducive to a healthy environment. And I don't say these things as buzzwords. They're. They're legit, right? It's not. When we promote, we have roles and responsibilities. And if we're micromanaged to the point that we can no longer do accomplish those roles and responsibilities, accomplish those tasks, then what's the point here? What are we actually doing? Right? And. And you undermine the process. You know, so like with the military, there's a chain of command. Why is there a chain of command? Not just because they wanted to create promotions for their buddies, but because everybody has a job and everybody has a responsibility. And as we've learned through the, uh, through the military and we've embraced and adopted into the fire services, there's a chain of command, and there's a span of control. So there's a reason why we put certain people in certain assignments. Because they handle these other taskers while other people work on these other taskers. Right? And what happens is we promote people. Like I said earlier, you know, Peter's principles, we promote people. We fast tracked them into something where they didn't learn or embrace their job, and then we put them in A position where they're completely in charge of something. And now, uh, in some avenues, you know, you could be the CEO of Ford and have never actually changed oil on a car. That's okay. Honestly, that's okay. Because it's a different dynamic. Right when we're talking about emergency services, it's quite difficult for somebody to micromanage. It doesn't mean they can't manage. You could put a manager in charge of an organization we talked before about. You can put somebody in that, that didn't have a fire or emergency services background, um, and oversee an organization. As long as they surround themselves with the right people and they trust, uh, the process and the people that they have working for them and they establish that mutual trust, your organization is going to flourish. What happens is, is we get people that they're in this fear of being exposed for not knowing what it is that they're supposed to do, or the fact that they probably weren't qualified to be the person in charge of the organization or that they didn't, you know, pay their dues per se. And instead of them surrounding themselves with good people and being like, hey, listen, you know, I'm a good manager, I'm, um, task oriented and I'm a good policy writer. So I'm going to do that. That's now my responsibility. But I have you tacticians and you other policymakers and you other administrators who you're going to take the lead on these other things and I'm going to trust and empower you to do those things. But what happens is, is we find ourselves with people that are underqualified and then they know they're under qualified and they're worried that that's going to be an exposure for their own ego. Like, oh shit, somebody's going to find out I shouldn't be doing this. And then they overly compensate and micromanage the people underneath them and not allow the people underneath them to do their job. And then what happens to the organization? It fails, it crashes, it crumbles, all because of micromanagement. So I'm not here to suggest that you got to have every cert and have fought every fire in the world to run an organization. But I do need you, or we should advocate. And people need to understand that what you need to do is you need to be humble enough to know your spots and know your limits and then entrust and empower with guidance and supervision the people to execute what you need them to execute. Otherwise, what's the point in having a

Speaker C: chain of command there's, there's that, but then there's also a different layer of it too. I mean, two things. You know, you don't have to be the expert in everything, right? You don't have to be the best ladder truck fireman ever to be a good ladder truck officer. You know what I mean? But I think if you're going to be a fire chief or, you know, officer, um, leadership or whatever, you have to have the perspective, you will make better decision, better decisions with having the perspective of what it's like to be in the shoes of those you manage, of those you lead. So what I mean by that is if you have a deputy chief of operations that has never pulled a handline, put out a fire, any of that stuff people know, and what do you think that does to their leadership abilities? Right. Uh, me personally, I am at a new station with a ladder truck. Prior to that I was at an engine only firehouse for almost nine years. And do I have the finite experience, knowledge and details as the guys have been riding in my station for 9, 10, 12 years? No, I don't. But I know what a ladder truck does. I understand where they fit into the operations and the overall strategy and tactics and goals of the fire ground in my fire department. So I know where I fit in. I'm just like in most leaders, you are a generalist, right? You're not a subject matter expert, you're a generalist. You're a, you put the right people, like you said, the right people in the right positions to do the job the right way the first time. So it's done and then you just figure it out. And what I've learned, and I remember this from being a fireman and this is kind of, uh, exactly circling back and kind of the exact reason of why I believe this. You know the firefighters or you know, the officers, when you're a chief or lieutenants, when you're a captain or whatever, they don't want you to know everything all the time about everything and anything. Do they want you to be knowledgeable? Yeah. But you know, it was actually kind of cool for me when I was a firefighter and I had a new lieutenant comes in, goes, I don't know the area. I've never ridden on a ladder truck my entire career. I've been a lieutenant or I've been in the department for nine years. I was on a, um, engine in the medic unit and then I was a dry engine driver. I don't know anything about truck work. I know what they do on the fire ground. He's like, I know where they're supposed to park, but I need your help. Can you. Would you mind giving me a hand? Like I want to go over ladders on ventilation tactic. Like lights, ladders, ventilation. I need you to teach me. I just, I just don't know. It. It was awesome because he came to me and was like, this is what I need help with. Well, he came to us, the firefighters, and we trained him up and it was awesome. It was great. We built the rapport. And years later, years later, we talked to him and he's like, I just wanted to be involved. He's like, yeah, I never rode on ladder. He's like, I know where fucking ladders go. He's like, I understand ventilation. I know what lights are like. He's like, I understand search techniques. He's like, I understand, you know, the statistics of where people are going to be and three o', clock, you know, the overnight when there's reported fires, blah, blah, blah. He's like, I understand. Goes like. He's like, I get it. He's like, I just want to engage with you guys. And he goes, and I know that was my weakness was truck work. He goes, did I need to say it? Maybe, maybe not. He goes, but I gave a. And that was my whole goal. And he told, he told me about this years later when I was a new officer, because I went to him and I was like, hey, bro, you got any advice for me? He goes, yeah, this is what you need to do. You walk in day one, throw out stuff that you don't 100% feel comfortable with and be okay with it. Be vulnerable because you're going to build that rapport with your guys.

Speaker D: What makes you humble, if you, it makes you a human, makes you approachable, they will respect you more as a leader right off the get because you're, you're expressing humility and you're proving that you're approachable.

Speaker C: Yeah. And you just say. And all you have to do is just set your boundaries and one of your boundaries. Excuse me, One of your boundaries. Or non negotiables can be. If you don't know something, say something. If you're right, you know, don't have a lot of confidence with ladders. Say something and just train on it. It's cool. We'll make it work. We'll get you there, we'll get you taken care of. But if you're able to say all that, you know, uh, uh, Lieutenant doesn't know about Chuck work. He doesn't know this. He ask him for our help to balance that. He knows engine work, he knows how policy, how the department, uh, fireground works. He knows how to run calls on a day to day basis. He understands policy. He makes sure we're paid, he makes sure our, our, uh, staffing is correct, our leave is correct, our union contract, we're being protected. Like he knows all those things, but he has that one, that one thing he needs help with. Well, we can balance that because he's the officer. He's, he's able to be the lieutenant when we need him to be the lieutenant. And all you don't know is ladders. We'll figure that out. But again, it's being the generalist. The left and right parameters of what I need done with the timeline and then they figure out everything in between and all you do is follow up, support, encourage, teach if necessary, and then step in and be the wise guy. And by wise guy, I mean have wise or have uh, the experience and knowledge, you know what I mean? Because typically the people that talk the most are the quiet ones. I mean, excuse me, the ones that, that are quiet have something to contribute. An intelligent comment, an intelligent response, a voice of reason, maybe a differential voice of experience. That's what they want. They don't want the guy that talks like I talk too much. You know what I mean? Which is probably why it's good. I have a podcast, but, uh, to get it out because I think I talk too much at work too. But um, they want that balance. They really do. Yeah.

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Speaker D: I really like everything that you were saying. I think one of the things that, uh, attributed to that officer's success was because they expressed that humility. Like I said, um, and like you were discussing. But just real quick, you know, for your listener, for your viewer, audience, whatever. While I agree with you, there's also different layers to the statement of oftentimes the dumbest guy in the room is the loudest talking or the most talking or whatever. It's not always necessarily true. And I'm not trying to just loop myself as an assessment on that. So like, I suffer immensely from anxiety and we're not making this about that, but self inadequacy and depression. And as a compensation for that, my, my defense mechanism is to peer very much like an extrovert. It's uh, almost like a blocker for me. It's like a nervous tic, I'll talk too much, et cetera. So in the same similar boat, you know, uh, yeah, thank God I have a podcast, right? But that said, oftentimes I've been misperceived as like, oh, well, he talks a lot. Now, I'm not trying to just give myself a self assessment. However, I will say that, you know, I have proven to hold my own. I'm only going to assess myself because it's not right for me to assess others. I will just say I do talk a lot. It's a nervous tip thing, uh, that I have. But if I don't understand the content, the subject matter, or I don't have something relevant to contribute and I'm just kind of there, then I keep my mouth shut, I take notes, I go back and I research whatever information so that I can understand, get a grasp of it and an understanding of it. But I will not fake it till I make it. Um, I pride myself on that because there's a lot of them out there. And people that have followed me know, I call them fugazes. You get it from Donnie Brasco. But it's the same back home, you know, with people that are frauds or trying to be, uh, something that they're not. And I think that while true what you said, you know, about, um, you know, sometimes the people, uh, that, that are talking too much aren't the, the, you know, they're not the smartest person. Oftentimes that is the case. And that's, that's the damaging thing is there's been so many people both in leadership and just society alone and just, especially just talking, sticking to our thing in the fire service where you get people that they will word salad stuff and they'll just Say a bunch of words to try to dodge step, pivot and get away from it and make it, uh, not expose the fact that they don't know what they're doing or know what they're saying. So sometimes I've been in a room where I've talked a lot and this is going to come across arrogant, but, uh, it's just a fact. Like if I'm talking, I understand the content and the subject. If I'm not talking, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. That's the difference. So sometimes people are talking because they know what they're talking about. Um, and back to the, the, the primary topic at this. We find ourselves with leaders and managers, supervisors, and specifically in the micromanaging field where people will say shit in a room, in a briefing, in a discussion, and they're wrong. They don't know what they're saying. Uh, you know, you can brief on risk and they'll be like, well, I recommend we accept the risk. Well, what background do you have to know that you should accept risk? You know, you probably shouldn't be saying anything at this point. And that's one of the things that we find ourselves running into is we have people that weigh in on labor relations contracts, but they don't understand. They have no empathy for what it's like to work on the floor or how, how certain things affect them with operations, with staffing, with training needs. And they'll talk about, well, you, uh, know, I understand and blah, blah, but they don't actually know. You know, just because you watched Chicago Fire one episode doesn't mean that you're on the lingo and in a dialogue of what it is that needs to be briefed here.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. You know, and that's a very interesting concept about feeling the angst, anxiety and then talking too much and all that. And I almost, I never thought about it like that. I almost, I don't know if I would be nervous and talk too much. But what I find myself is I just get so excited to be part of a conversation when I know I have something to contribute. Like, you know, and then that's, I mean, you know, as a 41 year old man, I feel like a kid, like super excited. Like um, like my kid is like ecstatic over the moon to add to a conversation when my wife and I are talking, almost to the point where he starts interrupting.

Speaker D: That's actually a good comparison. I get it.

Speaker C: Yeah. And it's just, you know, I just, I'm very excited. It's like, oh, I know exactly about that. I know exactly, you know, a good example for that. And where I get this weir weird thing and this weird feeling like I had somebody tell me, oh, shocker, you got a story. You got something to add? Uh, you got all these stories. You got all this. You got all that. And I heard that when I was a lot younger in my career. And now, like, it's the wildest thing. And I wouldn't exactly say I'm like, this super experienced guy, but, like, there's been multiple times we're talking about a fire that we ran or a fire that another shift ran or a fire that the battalion ran or the county ran. And they're kind of talking through it different stuff, or we're building construct. Like any. Not anything, but, uh, so many things we're on topic. And I'm like, I remember a call where this was that I remember this. I remember, like, it's bam, bam, bam, bam. And like, I have to really shut up because other guys have experience too. I can't be giving all the experience. And also, like, you know, I'm in a pipe band. We talked about that, right? I do. I'm. I'm a drummer. And, you know, if all you do is hit the drum, you never take a rest. They can never miss you if you. If you're never there, if you're always there, right? So it almost. You dilute yourself. And, you know, the last thing I want to do is take away from other people being able to add their $0.02 and have an opinion. And it's really, really, really difficult to be able to just shut my face and just sit there and sit and listen and listen. But you have to, because at the, uh, you know, at the end of the day, you're not the only one with the experience, and you're not the only one that has been through things. So, like, you know, being able to come in and, like, you can have. You can be impactful with those stories too. They'll be like, hey, L.T. you have anything? Well, actually, you know what? As a matter of fact, yeah, I do. Or they will go through whatever. Whatever the call was that they're talking about, and the guys are adding their experience, and you have a call that, you know, you talked about, and they didn't. They didn't. Whatever the situation or however they figured it out, you know, the answer was B. And you're like, hey, did you ever think about G? And this is why I never thought about that. So instead of, like, mindless Chatter or just noise. You're now being wise and experienced. And that's something that I'm really struggling with. You know, at 18 and a half years in the department, you know, 11 years as a lieutenant, you know, like we talked about, ah, at that, at the conference, you know, we had talked about this before the recording. I got to 11 years. It took me 11 years as a lieutenant to really feel like I am a lieutenant now. 11 years and you know, as a fireman, firefighter skills, officer skills all together. 11, 18 and a half years in general to feel comfortable. 11 years as a lieutenant to figure it out, to feel comfortable. Right now I'm now at a, at a paradox, a situation where I've been an officer longer than I've been a firefighter and we have to be medics to promote, which sucks. But it's a process. And I'm, um, a professional fireman. I don't give a shit. My goal is to be an officer. It's a rung in the ladder. I don't care. But with all that and all those steps and all that time, you know, it's just, it's very difficult to not want to just start blurting things out because, you know, I feel like I have something to contribute and it's tough. So that talks to the. What I'm getting at here. And again, I'll just. For being long winded, what I'm getting at here with this is, you know, it is, it is a process and, and, and why I feel like, you know, I can understand where you're coming from, of the anxiety of. And then the talking. But why not ne, you know, the talkative guy in the room may not necessarily be dumb and I didn't mean that. I don't think I came off that way. And if I did, I.

Speaker D: No, I didn't think you did at all. I just, I just wanted to throw those two cents in on it because I've been accused myself of like, hey, you ever heard the expression the loudest talking guy is the dumbest in the room? And I'm like, yeah, I've heard that, but you're an idiot. Because that's why you're just sitting there. You don't know what the hell you're talking about. Like, I never ever take kindly that because I know those people exist. I work for them and I have worked for them. But me, myself, I pride myself. If I'm talking during a meeting, I ain't faking it till I make it. I know what the hell I'm saying I'm briefing you because actually you're saying the wrong. And that's going to confuse some folks. So let me add in real quick. That's, that's usually how I am. So you didn't say nothing wrong. You're right. It's a, it's a common theme. I'm actually even attributing that to, uh. We have many leaders in many organizations, but specifically our thing that they fake it till they make it, they talk too much to think that they can control this, the narrative and the situation. And quite the opposite is everybody just is like, what the fuck is this guy saying? Like they don't even know what they're talking about.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, I agree. And you know, it actually kind of talks more to experience as well. Because being able to filter out the, the jargon or not the jargon, like the jocularity of a conversation in a firehouse, like, you know, there's guys out there that will run their mouths, talk shit, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah to the cows come home, but then can read the room on a serious conversation or when the tone dictates where we're

Speaker D: not joking and just make the switch,

Speaker C: you just stop and you just switch, right? So like being able to sit in a room and let anyone that has any experience in a firehouse with time on the job, whether you're slow, busy, whatever, it doesn't matter. It's the human nature or it's the human element. You can sit in there and understand the tone, right? Tone is everything. So, you know, Dave may run his mouth and talk a lot of shit and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That means not he's just talking and enjoying himself, but when the time matters of, um, drilling a really fucked up call, we need to talk about kind of what we have, what happened. We thoroughly embarrass ourselves as an individual by making a mistake. Like Dave changes his tone, body language, words, you know, those things matter. So like, you gotta, gotta understand that side of it as well. To assess a situation of individuals create a disservice because then it adds back to that layer of lack of experience. So where, where, uh, I think where I'm going with this is people, people that I think proclaim themselves to be experts in fields that they don't have any real actual familiarization with beyond what they want it to be like. It's almost like they create their own false sense of reality, grasp at STR and then try to make something. It really is. And I think the people that try to Be self proclaimed experts without vetting, such as Instagram pages, Facebook pages, even some podcasts. I mean, shit, even maybe people think that of me when you, you know, there really isn't any vetting or anything to hold you accountable. And that's when I think people can start to skate in that have less experience than they think or they can really show how truly disconnected they are. Does that make sense, what I'm getting at?

Speaker D: No, I very much makes sense. I'm going to say this on two sides. I'll cover it from how I feel personally about the situation and uh, unfortunately, uh, I'll tiptoe around it just for my own credibility and not to piss certain people off. And then I'm also going to tie it into the topic that we're having with the micromanaging and the managing and the leadership stuff. So I'll say this. The first thing is mental health exists. Brain, brain health exists. People that have some kind of damaging things exist. I'm not getting into a uh, conversation about uh, vaccines and medications, but I would be remiss not to say or suggest or imply that certain sciences have probably assisted in certain chemical imbalances in the brain. I myself suffer immensely, not self diagnosed, just legit from a lot of these issues. And I hate that I can't combat it. And I hate that I'm extremely misunderstood and I hate that in 2026, um, if I have some kind of a bad day, some kind of an issue, or legitimately have an issue, I'm afraid to even admit it because it's been so saturated now as a buzzword that people are using it as a crutch or for some notoriety or validity or reason to be famous and have a podcast or write a book or uh, a uh, an article. But I digress. So I will say that we are in the haste of trying to normalize the conversation. We didn't vet the process properly enough that we have a lot of people talking about something that they probably shouldn't be talking about. And even if they are supposed to be talking about it, it's just um, you know the expression too many chefs spoil a soup. I didn't feel comfortable for a long time being open about how I felt about certain things. I will give Stephanie ah, uh, White from Firefighter Nation. I'll give her credit, she, she wanted me to start writing about it and I have. But I also kind of tried to take a little bit of a step back because I've noticed a lot more people are coming to the front. Maybe they're the ones that should be speaking more than m. Me. Maybe it's just my own comfort, or maybe I'm just being suspicious of, of who's talking about what. But nonetheless I will give her that credit, is that that helped a little bit of me speaking about it. But I'll say that in our thing there are a lot of people who aren't educated enough to understand it, experienced enough to understand it or whatever. And there are people who are unfortunately are doing. Speaking about that for the wrong reasons. Coupled with. We have like uh, we were talking about before about leaders and micromanagers where if they don't understand it or if they don't believe in it, they can't express. You don't have to have the empathy because, you know, you maybe don't have uh, a mental health situation. But you know, as a leader you need to have a level of sympathy. Relevant. Relevant sympathy. So I mean relevant because you know, the first, first word in that is for real, you know, relevance. Making. Making it real. And I'll say that we have leaders who are dismissive to relevant, um, and validated anxiety. So like, I suffer immensely from anxiety. I have a lot of things going on in my personal life and it's been tripping me up a little bit professionally. I may have experience with a supervisor or a leader who. They can't, they can't sympathize with the situation. It actually makes me feel worse if I even try to vent or open up to them about it because it's perceived as, uh, they just don't get it. And that also is off putting and etc. And then coupled with the environment we've created where there are so many barking dogs, so many, so many speaking heads that are mental health, mental health, mental health. And I'm like, well now I'm afraid to even say that I'm um, you know, having a bad day because I'm in fear that this may have been devalued. So I don't really know where we go from there. I just will say, speaking for myself, I'm a little twisted and I got issues and I don't know how to handle them. And then if I want to try to talk about it, sometimes I feel that I don't have enough of a true support mechanism above me to vent about it. And then I feel awkward mentioning it amongst our people, our peers, through, through these types of outlets because unfortunately, and I'm sorry to upset people when they hear this, but I just, this is how I feel is it's been saturated. Not for a, uh, bad reason, because there are people behind the scenes that are trying to push for this because they. They believe in it, and they want to do it. Right. But there are also people who have been speaking about this that I think have used it as a level. Level of, um, trying to gain fame. And. And. And that. That hurts me because I. I truly suffer from the sickness, and I feel like, well, how dare you use something that I have as a sickness for your notoriety?

Speaker C: Yeah, no, and. And, um, unfortunately, I mean, the United States Constitution allows you, you know, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, all that. So anybody and everyone can kind of really do and say whatever they want, within reason. And within reason, I mean, there's things that you can say that will have consequences. The way it is, you can say it, you can do it, you can handle it however you like, but there's still consequences for your actions. So, you know, everyone gets a voice, and then, you know, it dilutes everything. Like you said, too many chefs spoil the soup. What are your thoughts on having the experience to know? And this is. To me, this is a big thing because this is something that I kind of went through. Um, and I got to tiptoe how I say this, because I don't want to say it wrong, but I was part of a situation, and I was a supervisor, and I'm really glad the situation happened when it did, because I had the experience, confidence, and knowledge of how to handle it for that person to where I could walk in, guns blazing, ready to fight the system or not fight the system. And I didn't have guns blazing in a government setting just to be clear. And clear that up. It's a figure of speech. Guns blazing, ready to absolutely fight tooth and nail for this person because they really needed help. And I saw the situation and the manner in which it was heading, and I had the ability to fight and open doors. That was my ability because of the rank that I had and my knowledge and my experience. Right. So now I can advocate. It's probably the best way to say that I was able to thoroughly advocate for them for a situation that was going on. It ended up being minor in nature. It ended up not being a big deal, and it, uh, ended up working out just fine. However, you know, I saw the writing on the wall, I knew what was happening, and I was like, let's go rock and roll. We need to move quick, fast, in a hurry, and we need to get ahead of this, and we need to lay the groundwork now. And that was off experience because I had situations somewhat similar with other people that I fucking sucked at. I dropped the ball, it was terrible, you know what I mean? So, like, I think that is a major part of it too, where you kind of have to get it and you have to know how to work in the fire department, you have to have spent time in the field. You had to build rapport, be present in the moment, have your face out there. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I don't know. I'd rather talk to somebody that I got, I've gotten, you know, I'm, I'm having issues at work, I'm struggling with whatever. And you and I rode this ambulance together. We got our ass beat for three years together. We've got all these great stories and all these fun laughs that we had and some really shitty nights. I want to talk to you more than I want to talk to this guy on this team that wants to come talk to me. And I'm not knocking those teams. What I'm talking about is the relevance of presence, the relevant relevance of the relation. The. You know, I've been in your shoes. We've been through some together. I feel more comfortable with you and finding the right outlet.

Speaker D: Yeah.

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Speaker D: I think in anything that we do in our thing, experience matters and education matters, um, far too many times. Kind of like the country where we have both ends of the spectrum left and right, blah, blah. We have, uh, you know, certification outweighing experience. Experience outweighing certification. Well, I don't care that you don't have that certification. I'm a better fireman than you, you know, and, and sometimes these things are true, but the reality is in order to be sound and operational and, and, and good at what we do, you have to have a combination of both experience and education. So we'll say that in the realm of, you know, when we went down this avenue with the, the mental health piece of. And that's my apologies because I'd kind of alluded to just why I'm always stressed and talking too much is if you're going to judge, you're good.

Speaker C: No, no, you're good man. Because I think there's a lot ah to that than you think there's a lot of people.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, I uh, I appreciate that. But if you're going to judge or, or, or weigh in or advocate for mental health, which you should, especially when you're a leader, you should absolutely do it. It would be the same as anything else in our thing is you need to have a level of introduction, experience and knowledge. And how do we get there when it comes to mental health is recognizing that it can be real and then recognizing the signs of whether or not somebody is abusing this language. You know, an offline conversation, a uh, comparison to you know, the modern day back injury is actually a pretty applicable comparison. It's unfortunate, it's damaging to the validity of that type of thing, but it's very real. It's, it was, it was, it was a very good description or you know, way to describe it because we find ourselves where a good population of people who are afraid to say something. There's a good population of people who are self proclaimed experts on how to handle it and then there's a good population of people who don't believe in it at all. And then unfortunately there is a population, I wouldn't say the most of it, but there are, there is a population of people who now recognize this as a buzzword and they either a uh, use it as a crutch to get out of trouble or they use it as a uh, segue into fame and it's hurting us. And like everything you know, we, we, we don't know what we don't know and that's why experience and education matters in every, every facet of what we do. And that includes the mental health pieces. In order to truly understand it, respect it, you need to be a student of it and, and appreciate how to mitigate, how to support, when to support and also whether or not it's relevant, real. And that doesn't dismiss it, but just that it is There is value there. Um, you know, so I would say that I agree with what you're saying and I specifically think that if, especially if you're going to be in the realm of some kind of influence and, or slash leadership, you should absolutely take the time to gain a level of experience, get informed, research and get educated when it comes to dealing with something like that, as you should with anything in our thing, you should have some kind of information introduction into understanding certain things. But as we've scratched the surface and we've made mental health more real and more prevalent, which is great, we now need to do a better job of vetting that and understanding it and appreciating it because we've now lifted up the stone and said, hey, it's real, there it is, it's under there. And now what? Now we need to understand how to navigate it, how to mitigate it, how to protect it, how to, how to accept it, how to uh, know when it's relevant, when it's, when, when, when it's applicable, to acknowledge that, um, all that stuff.

Speaker C: Yeah. And it, it also. I was never a big mental health. I'm um, not saying it's not real in any way, I'm not saying that at all. But I never really looked at it as do I have a mental health issue, I have stress, I have issues. And ultimately what I was always beating into my head, you know, I got hammered for everything I did when I was younger. I got hammered for everything I did as a new officer. I get hammered now for that. You think are the dumbest mistake. You're not going to get away, you're not going to get away with shit. But a lot of that, is that ever difficult or that ever never ending assessment of is it stress? And you have, you're having issues with stress and, and, and, and the department and issues with, with what's going on or are you being held accountable and you don't like it? Like those are two different things, I think. And, and I'm not saying people, I'm not saying people didn't have mental health issues back in the day and they're all starting to surface now. But I think as a society, you know, given a standard, you are expected to meet it and you're hammered when you're not. And then you're brought back up and taught and then you're hammered when you're not. You're brought back up and taught. Hopefully you understand it's not a mental health thing, it's an accountability thing. Then you have People in society that are soft. You have people in society that don't like being yelled at. Do you always need to yell at people? No, you don't. I think if you yell too much you're an idiot and it just, you lose your impact.

Speaker D: No, but you need to establish parameters and accountability. I agree, It's.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. And the best way to do that, or uh, what I'm getting at with the mental health thing too is, you know, this job is much easier on your mental health when you're good at it. You know what I mean? Like it's stressful as hell enough to begin with, with the shitty calls, the shitty hours, people acting like assholes, you know, all that, all that stuff happens. But if you're good at your job, you're dependable, you know, guys can rely on you to do what you need to do, be where you need to be when you're supposed to be there. A lot of things in this job get much easier. I had somebody in my career where he looks me square, look me square in the face and goes, it pays to not suck. Maybe not the most well spoken lesson, but this job's a lot of fun and it's a lot easier when you're good at it. So if you're going to have a problem, know who, you know who you need to talk to. Know when you're, um, when you have, when you need help, but also put the effort into being fucking good at it. You know what I mean? Because you're probably not going to have as much stress going to work if guys know you're going to do your job as, you know, if you're a liability that creates stress and tension all on its own, that cycles into all kinds of things. You know, if you want to go out and you want to, you know, I don't know, make a Facebook page and do whatever, then do it. But you better be good at what you're doing if you're going to put yourself out there. Because you know, if you can write a page together and put a page together, but then you turn around and you came and do the basic function of your job, that's going to be a problem. Create problems for you and issues for you and they will bleed into each other. They really will. I think.

Speaker D: Mhm. No, no, I agree.

Speaker C: I just do think there is, there's quite the difference between being yelled at and picked on and then being held accountable and being held to a standard. And I think the standards are what is, is created by those you work with. For their non negotiables, for, um, what the company holds as a standard, what the culture of your department is. Hopefully it's a culture of aggression. Aggressive firefighting, aggressive training, aggressive passion for the job and aggression for each other. And by aggression for each other, I mean holding each other to that standard every day, you know what I mean? When it comes from showing up to work two hours or an hour early, even though your shift starts at seven, you walk in door five, you walk by and something needs to be mopped, you fucking do it. It doesn't matter if it's your turn or not. It doesn't matter. It's five o' clock in the afternoon to do housework. If you guys set the standard of coffee stays on then and you walk by and there's no coffee and it's, it's, it's 10:00 in the morning, put coffee on. It doesn't matter. You're not the, it doesn't matter if you're the work, you're not. Who gives a shit? You know, I mean, standards and I think people get this toxic work environment mixed with being held accountable. And what I've noticed is there are a lot of toxic work work environments. I've been a part of toxic environments before and they suck and they're not fun. But as I talk about this and I think back and I've reflected throughout my career, was it really that toxic or was it my fault? And I didn't like the fact that I was being called out for my bullshit.

Speaker D: Sure. What was your contribution to how it got toxic?

Speaker C: I think just reflecting on it, you know, thinking about it older, you know, I'm in my 40s now and I think things, think about things a lot different than I did when I was in my 20s. The blame game of everyone else's fault but mine, and not actually that, because

Speaker D: that's say, mine would be the same answer is, is, is pointing out, uh, everyone else's flaws before accepting my own.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker D: Sorry, I just said that.

Speaker C: No, yeah, no, and it's, and that's where the dilemma came in. Reflecting on the situ. There's. I wouldn't call it a gray area, but I would call it, you know, really trying to reflect inward as opposed to outward as, uh, you know, what the problems were. And I think, you know, I had environments where it was only difficult because I didn't care as much as I should have. And I'm not even going to sugarcoat it, it was, it was bad. Like I said before, you know, I Enjoyed partying, I enjoyed hanging out, going, doing whatever. I had all this money, I was young, I didn't have any bills. I work eight days a month, 96 days a year, and I'm off and I want to go party and have fun. And what I should have done was I should have front loaded the work, I should have front loaded the effort, I should have front loaded the accountability, I should have front loaded the discipline, front loaded the work ethic when I didn't. And I think that people's response to my actions may have not been the best. You know what I mean? Because I've had a lot of people kind of, you know, I think that those kind of things can be toxic. Instead of being like, hey, stop being a dirtbag, then they turn around and play you. They would play games or, or, or, or create situations where, you know, like, I was blackballed the entire shift. No one would talk to me. And basically one day somebody's like, you should probably just transfer your piece of shit. You know what I mean? To me, I, I consider that, I considered that toxic back then, but all the shitty assignments I had and shitty situations I had, except for one in the last nine years, everything else, it's, uh, like an 80, 20, like 80 me and 20% them. You know, I never really actually thought about it. Like, I kind of am now. I mean, I've, I've said it before, you know what I mean? But like, really thinking about it, I don't know, man. I think a lot of it was just from my actions.

Speaker D: Yeah, I'm gonna agree with you. Some soul searching, some growing up that I had to do on my own. So I'll say that. You know, it's interesting you were using the word standard. I love that. You know, the, the new book that I'm, I'm working on, we're, we're calling it Setting the Standard. And it's a training book, but everything is about standards and how we set them. Right. So in talking about, just carrying on this conversation about self accountability and victimization. Right. Self righteousness, Victimization. Right. Yeah. Uh, um, it's a tricky, it's a tricky, uh, road to navigate because sometimes, I'm going to preface with sometimes people really do have problems. And some people, sometimes people are the victim of the circumstance that they're in. Right. And there's just nothing they can do about it. However, I'll get to that in a second. Let's first start with as I've promoted through and as I've, uh, climbed the ranks. And as I've had to hold people accountable. The, the hard part of that is to not be a hypocrite and you can have transgressions from your past. I'm not trying to say like you need to be a frigging boy scout in order to hold others accountable. No, you shouldn't. In fact, you should actually have been a jerk off and somebody that's gotten in trouble and written up and, and you know, had to sit there and, and talk to the union to see if you can get protected because you're in trouble or you know, had those hard conversations with your, with your lieutenant or your captain or, or whoever. Right? That stuff makes you understand how it feels to be talked to. That stuff makes you be able to navigate through that as you're holding accountability makes you appreciate things more. So I'm not saying don't have a past. In fact, I'm actually saying quite the opposite. You should have some kind of past where you know, you've, you've.

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Speaker D: Various 18/ felt the wrath of this type of stuff. But I noticed that a lot of times when we deal with people, they quick victimize the situation and they gaslight in their reaction. Um, and, and you know, it's, it's, I guess it's a normal reaction but it's, it's, it's, it's counterintuitive. It doesn't help. You know, both the person that's trying to establish the accountability and the recipient of the accountability, uh, start to grow resentment. They get personal with stuff. So I'll say just on what you were saying before, if you're struggling in your organization and there's a level of toxicity, what are you doing to a, what is your contribution to said toxicity? Uh, are you making it worse? Are you making it more toxic? Are you throwing gas on fire or are you trying to find a way to better yourself, set a standard for yourself or meet that standard, that or expectation it's been created for you. And are you working toward being a better person and an accountable person? Accountability starts with yourself before someone else can hold you Accountable people can make you feel like you've let them down and that will trigger and inspire you to try to hold yourself accountable. But accountability starts with you. So you can have a boss that you might feel like is in your ass. So you need to assess the situation before you quick, gaslight the boss and be like, oh, well, this guy, blah, blah. I've been in situations where I made a contribution that warranted or invited me to be held accountable. And it was very difficult for me to have a conversation with myself on how I was going to accept that accountability and try to rise to that standard. Now the segue to that is there also are victims of circumstance. There are jerk off bosses out there, there are tyrants, there are dictators, there are micromanagers, there are people who do not understand leadership, don't understand people, don't value people, and they actually gaslight you when you say, hey, hold on a second. Like, I feel like you've given me four different taskers in the past hour and these immeasurable deadlines and you're giving me no guidance on how I'm supposed to handle this situation. You know, you got to work with me here. And they're, oh, wait a minute, you know, you, this is on you. Did I not talk to you before? You know, sure, you're allowed to be a victim in that situation, but the more you cry about it and victimize and like, oh, he's just setting me up for failure. Well, yeah, he probably is, or she is, but what are you doing to, to not fail? Like, yeah, you could be a victim of circumstance. I've certainly been in that situation recently where I've been a victim of circumstance. But I'm also going to play chess. I'm not going to allow you to just absorb me because, oh, you took my queen. It's like, oh, all right, the game's over now. Nah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pull myself up, I'm gonna take some self accountability and I'm gonna get better at what I do so that I can then prevent you from having more of this dictatorship, uh, that you're creating. And I'm gonna have my own accountability for my actions so that I'm just really good at my stuff. And then I don't mean to be shitty or arrogant, but then, then you got nothing on me and you're just making shit up for your own selfish gain.

Speaker C: Well, I also think there's also, there's also been a significant culture, at least in my lifetime of, you know, you ever seen that old cartoon where it was like, you know, in the 50s, and there's a F on the paper, the pantry yelling at the kid, and then it says, modern day, and there's an F on the paper, and you're yelling at the teacher, and the kid's like, ha, ha ha. Right? That is a thing. And I'm not gonna get into politics. But when you had a societal shift that treated authority and accountability as evil or the problem, like, again, not to be political, but when you have police being demonized for doing their jobs, those things bleed over. Because once you attack authority and you don't hold authority as a high regard the way it should be, then you start losing control, you start losing accountability. So, uh, this is where I'm going with this. I'm not going into politics, not talking about police. I don't really give a shit what anyone thinks about the cops either. Like, them, you don't. I don't fucking care. I'm not a politician. I don't give a shit. I. That's the blessing of America. You can believe in whatever you want, and I don't have to agree with it. It's okay. What I'm getting at is somehow things I work for me. Usually the officer should be the last guy to talk to you. There should be levels of stupidity. Or, uh, levels. Not stupidity. Excuse me, Levels of your stupidity that gets caught beforehand. You should have layers, like bosses, right? Your first boss, your next. Yeah, your. Your next senior guy, right? Hey, shithead, what are you doing? Oh, yeah, you know, whatever. No, man, like, quit fucking around. You're gonna piss the officer off. Then the other guy, hey, this dude talked to you already. You're still fucking around. What's your problem? All right, cool. We're gonna fix this. Doesn't need to go to him. And then the officer comes in and be like, yo, what the fuck happened? Right? Because to me, the officer should be wise, experienced and all that, right? So he could come in and be like, hey, Dave, notice a couple guys had to talk to you about your attitude. I noticed a couple guys had to talk like, hey, we just ran this fire. We had some issues. I noticed issues with ladders. Pretty sure I heard you guys talking about it in the engine bay the other day. What's. This is? What's the deal, right? I'm not yelling and screaming at you. I'm not. I'm not, you know. You know, tearing you apart yet what happened, right? And then you got hammer, right? Or you could also have the outspoken officer, which would be like, hey shithead, I told you. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Lay into you and I walk away. And then you look at the other firefighter like, what the hell? Yeah, dumbass. Why is, why is he mad at us? Why is he mad? It's because you screwed it up.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Now we have that societal shift of authority is the enemy. You shouldn't be held accountable. Kind of are gentler. Everyone gets participation. Trophy, trophy. You know, meritocracy is not there anymore. You know what I mean? I'm not, I'm not getting to that whole three letter thing. But what I will say is when it's based on merit and merit alone, it shouldn't matter anything other than your actions, your accomplishments and how you carry yourself every day, your abilities, whether you, whether you, whether you earn it or not. So what you, what I see now is, you know, you could have an issue and then you have this firefighter over here who he or she may be involved with whatever, whatever group and they could be like, oh, he can't talk to you like that. Here's the contract. You should read that. He can't say that to you. Here's the, here's the policy. Look at that. And then they start dissecting and interpreting words to work for their situation. Well, hey, Lieutenant, you can't talk to him like that. He's a grown ass man. You're right, he's a grown ass man. I'm gonna talk to him in a professional manner, but I'm gonna be stern. I'm uh, being stern. I'm not cussing, I'm not screaming.

Speaker D: He's a grown ass man.

Speaker C: Exactly correct. But you know, and that's, and that's the difference now, right? That is the difference, I think where when we were younger you acted like an asshole. You got hammered, right? Going back to what I talked about myself a while ago was I wouldn't listen to anybody. And then my officer got mad at me and it would be like, well, what the hell's the problem? What's your issue? And uh, I got absolutely smoked for it. And guess what happened? It got to the point where it was like, you're not going to learn. We're going to wash our hands of you. You need to leave. You should probably ask for a transfer. Otherwise we're going to put you on day work. You get one chance to get out. It's basically what happened to me. And it was terrible. But I think when you have, you know, now what I'm getting at with all this is, you know, when you have that experience level that is dropping. Fires are dropping. Educated and very experienced officers are dropping. Senior guys are in their knees now, like, you know what I mean? There's a station that I know of that a senior person on the shift is in his mid-20s and has four years in the station.

Speaker D: Yeah, that's, that's crazy.

Speaker C: You know what I mean? I mean, the system that I know about, excuse me, the system is not set up for a lot of those things. The fire department in itself is very, very young. You know what I mean? You know, I'm 41 and some people say I'm a young lieutenant now, you know. Uh, but, uh, what I'm, what I'm getting at is though, it's, I feel like the fire service will mimic, will stay parallel to societal norms. And I think as a society we have a significant issue and that's going to bleed over into the fire service. It really is. Um, I really do believe when you have the blind leading the blind or you have nefarious intentions or people, all kidding aside, are just so oblivious to how ridiculous they are and they just don't get it. And those people have voices and they're not shut down by guys with experience, right? And more people like bam, bam, bam, bam. All these guys all have the experience. You are wrong. It is not the officer's problem. It is not the department's problem. It's. It's your training. It's, it's your accountability.

Speaker D: Right?

Speaker C: This is our level. You're down here. We want you up here. You need to work for it.

Speaker A: This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web. Like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses. Setup required. Compatibility and availability varies.

Speaker B: 18 plus right now get up to 15% off select storage solutions put heavy duty HDX totes to good use, protecting what's important to you. The solid impact resistant design prevents cracking and the clear base insides make items easy to find even when the totes are stacked. Find select select shelving and tote storage up to 15% off at the Home Depot. To organize every room in your home from your garage to your attic, visit homedepot.com how doers get more done Yeah, I, I um.

Speaker D: I've. I've experienced to be political in how I say this. So I've experienced situations where uh, there's a couple of guys that will be on a shift or in the firehouse or on a crew and.

Speaker C: Excuse me.

Speaker D: And they um, they're the ones that are causing a level of uh, that toxic behavior, that negative behavior. They're the ones that are uh, not meeting any type of standard and in fact they're trying to regress the, the surroundings, right? And guys would, you would hear guys, you know, say, I can't stand so and so. I just wish so and so would just shut their mouth and blah, blah. It came to a point where I finally just said like, hey, this is your fire department. Contrary to rank and structure like that you sooner are more embarrassed and fast track yourself to self accountability when your peers, like when they hold you accountable. So let's put this in a, in uh, a metaphor. You're in, you're, you're a kid and you're in school and you're in class. If you're messing around and a teacher's giving you shit, unless you're super disciplined, you're going to be like, wow, uh, the teacher's just breaking my balls, right? Or the teacher sends you down in a principal's office and it's all, the principal's just breaking my balls and blow. But when your friends say get off. We're not going to sit with you during lunch. You're not playing dodgeball with us during recess. You're acting like a complete jerk off. You're going to, you're going to get accountable real quick and you're going to try to button up. And that's what we fail on is, you know, that self accountability and then that peer accountability. There's people that, you know, if they believe what right looks like and they have an understanding of it, you don't have to have bugles on your collar to, to, to, to call it out. I mean, obviously be prudent. You know, we live in, like you just said before, and we live in an environment where we got to be a little more sensitive on how we handle situations. I'm not talking about dudes start throwing down it, you know, it ain't, it ain't those days no more. Uh, sometimes, unfortunately, but it just ain't any those days anymore. That said nothing better than when your peers say, you need to straighten the fuck out. This is embarrassing. You're a member of our crew and I'm embarrassed that you're, you're acting this way. You Got to straighten it out. And, and I think that when people do that, when your peers establish this level of accountability, it resonates more in a fast track self accountability more than paperwork, more than getting a talking to from the company boss. You know, those things work. But unless you truly respect a guy, it only goes so far. You know, if you don't have any respect for your leader, you're going to do only enough to not get in trouble or at least, uh, you know, kick the can for a little bit to escape the radar. It works when you really believe in your leader and then you're inspired. It's like letting you know when your dad says I'm not mad at you, I'm disappointed. You know, like, which is even worse. Right? That's what I'm saying, you know.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, that stuff works.

Speaker D: But when your peers hold you accountable, everybody likes to fit in. Especially in a firehouse man. You know, sitting, sitting, eating dinner by yourself is not a, not a fun place to be. It's a lonely place. So. And you know, you don't have uh, you don't have a Wilson volleyball to make a friend out of either. You're just there by yourself, you know,

Speaker C: bloody nose to make a handprint with right hand.

Speaker D: Right. You know, so, so I will say, uh, you know, just on this accountability topic, I think that, you know, self accountability is very important. I would be rem not to say that there are situations where you are the victim of circumstance and you work for a complete scale jerk off who has no business being your boss. But there are other situations where you, you have created an environment where you, the pain you're feeling is a pain you contributed to. And if you can't hear that from yourself or from your leader, that's where the peers need to step up in, in a prudent way. Uh, not bully people and just, yo, dude, you're an embarrassment right now and you need to fucking straighten it out. And people will resonate with that and get accountable quick on meeting whatever standard it is in your organization, et cetera.

Speaker C: And it's not bullying if you don't like it or just because you don't like what you're hearing. Like, you know what I mean?

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: But you know, I had a situation once and I'm, this is something I kind of want you to maybe jump into or get into as well, or at least your perspective. I'm curious what you have to say. Where I had a guy that is a very well respected person in the department that I that I work for and may be intimately familiar with came to me and was like, you know, hey, like you. And as an officer, hey, dude. Like, you need to tighten these few things up. Like, we know you're trying. You know, he's like, I'm the senior. You could call me a senior person. Senior, uh, guy. He said, collectively, these are the three or four things you need to fix, and you need to fix them fast. Everything else, we're good. We'll take care of it. Like, we got you. This needs to get fixed. And I. And I. I'll never forget it. Cause I looked him square in the face and I was like, is this URLs. URLs. You know, hey, here. Here's your opportunity to fix this and move on. We want you to stay. Or is this a, uh. What is this? He looked at me and goes, there's not a lot of people I've ever seen in my career that had this opportunity. You should probably shut up and take it and then not ask any more questions. And I was the officer. It's very interesting feeling. And there's two ways to look at that too. You know, they all are talking. Is it a, uh, they. And I think it was, uh. The way I interpreted it was collectively, they wanted this. So he just happened to be the voice, the face, the person. But, you know, collectively, there's enough to keep you around. There's enough that they, like, they just need you to tighten something up. Nobody's called you out. No, I don't really genuine. I don't think people were fake, but I just think there's a way to go about it. So what I'm getting at is, you know, I had that happen to me as. As a lieutenant. And it's not a good feeling because it should not be that way, I think. And I had nobody to blame but myself. And the reasons that were very. I mean, all the things people probably come to you with. I think the few things they told me were very, very simple to fix. It just took a little bit of. Quite frankly, not even. I mean, you don't know what you don't know. Right. There were things I knew that I should be better, I should be better at them, but I didn't know I was not at the level they wanted. So they brought it to my attention, and then vice versa. I've had it as a lieutenant where I had a situation and I. I said, one of the guys that had a lot more. He had more pull because he was one of the guys I'M not one of the guys, Lieutenant. I'm like, you should pro. You need to go fix this. Like, you, you need to talk to him before I do. Because if I go talk to him, it's business. If you talk to him, we're good. And as long as it's straightened up, we're good. But again, that's. Don't tie my hands, because once they're tied, I'm not going back. I'm following what I have to do because I once I know, know about it, I am accountable for it. I got to do my job because if I let this slide, what else am I going to let slide?

Speaker D: Right, right, right. You, you, you know, the standard is actually depth. That becomes the standard.

Speaker C: It's not what you preach, it's what you tolerate.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: I just wanted to know what you thought about that. Because I got hit with it, but then I also hit somebody else with it. Not like it's a target, like being on the both sides of that fence as a lieutenant with time on time on as a lieutenant. And then, you know, you had somebody collectively talking to you because they could have sat me in a room, just pow, pow, pow, pow, Fired away. But no, they went to one person was like, go. And that guy was like, yo, bam, bam, bam, bam. Did not sugarcoat, laid it all out. I don't want to say state was firm but not disrespectful, but it came to me. The way I took it was, we're not mad at you. We know you can do better, and we're very disappointed. And we can't, we can't have you around if you don't get on our level.

Speaker D: And it was like, I attribute that back to just what I just said before. You know, it's a, it's a very good example of what you said is simply that is, there's levels of, of, of who you will allow to hold you accountable in the firehouse. I fear, I feel proper, proper peer accountability is going to hold you accountable and make, uh, you rise to the occasion or you work for a person that you really put a lot of stock in what they think and say, and them being disappointed in you is soul crushing. You will get, you will get accountable quick, and you will rise to the occasion quick. And, and then, and then those other things, like, you know, fear of losing, uh, your job. But yeah, I guess, you know, you get accountable. I never, I never believed in those because I feel like those can be very unproductive. You can actually create a level of anxiety that you don't need to create with people. We're in a business of developing people. If somebody ain't making the mark, our job is to find a way to make them make the mark. Now, maybe that's done through some hardship. That happens, you know, I mean, this is a hard job. You know, I'm not always going to sit here and buy you tulips and candy and be like, you know, this. I. I want you to get better. Here's some tools. Like, now, I want you to get better because you're dropping a fucking ball, and I want you to get better. But that's me developing you because I care enough to let you know that I want you to get better. I want to find a way to do it. But nonetheless, you know, we're. We're in a hard business, and we have to have a level of accountability. You said something earlier where I agree, you know, with the participation award thing. You know, I am, um, all about recognition. When it's deserved and earned, I'm all about honoring, um, guys, when it's deserved and earned. Just because you showed up today, I'm not giving you a medal. Um, you know, just because you guys put out a fire today, what's your fucking job? So I'm proud of you guys for kicking ass and making us look good when, you know, we arrived on scene. But I'm not going to sit here and put you guys in for awards. You know, um, my award is, you know, how the fire go. All right. Awesome. And, you know, oh, well, so and so screwed up. Yeah, but how do we do? We did good. All right.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker D: We did good. That's my way of being like, hey, I'm proud of you guys. When I say, right, we did good, it's because I trusted how you were going to perform on that scene. That's my award. But just because, you know, you went to a fire doesn't mean that you get the accolades. Just because, you know, you did a building inspection doesn't mean you get the accolades. You know, you. This is another issue. We. We've created a society where people expect to be thanked for doing their job. Like, I don't get it twisted. I appreciate your contribution, what you do. Nobody thanked me for showing up today. And that doesn't mean that just because they didn't thank me, I don't thank you. We have a job to do. You know, we have to go out and kick ass and do what we need to do and rise to the occasion and train and educate ourselves to get Better and have a level of accountability and have goals every day to be better than we were yesterday. You don't show up because you heard, you know, that so and so's handing out challenge coins or certificates of appreciation. Like, oh, well, you know, I need to make sure I'm there then. Like, yeah, man, like, that's, that stuff's cool. But like, you know, I want you to show up to work because, you know, you want to do awesome today. And I want you to, uh, you know, I want you to show up to work because, you know, you're gonna have fun today and you're gonna learn something today, you know, not because they were handing out fucking, you know, pieces of paper. That's. That's just like secondary.

Speaker C: Yeah. And then I also think once you. I think there's people that get it and don't. And I think the people that get it look for other rewards. And this is what I mean, you're the chief of the department, but let's say you're a battalion chief, right? And then I go, I don't know. This is just for conversation. Two, three years of good fires. We do a great job. We run some kick ass fires, we may have some mistakes here and there. Nothing of note. And then I fucking bomb it. I mean, something. I should have no problem. Not a tough situation. Not, not, not some stat, you know, things stacked against you. None of that stuff like a fire, that there is no excuse that you just. Whatever happened, town chief comes up to you, puts arm around you and goes, hey, man, what happened? Why did you not put this fire out? Why did this company go around you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, hey, chief, this is what happened. You're honest, you tell the truth. You don't make excuses, you don't lie, you don't. None of that. This is what happened. This is why it was why we screwed up and all that. And then you get the, all right, man, look, shit happens. Don't make it a habit, you know, we're good. That's what the appreciation is. You know what I mean? The appreciation is, you know, Dave, Mike, Rick and Bob, all the four officers on the, in the battalion, right? Dave's new to the battalion. He's. He's a new lieutenant, whatever. And he's been around for six, eight months. Everybody else has got a bunch of time on and we're all kind of sucking. You're doing great. Hey, Dave, I need this done. I need it done the right way. These other guys could probably do it but you're a new officer and, and you know, you've been doing a good job so far. I'd like you to take this project on, Dave. You're the only guy I know, uh, you're the guy I know that can get this done right the first time that happens. Those are the appreciations. Because if you ever notice that the, and I'm not saying like the work where they dump on people they don't like, but you know, you know, hey, I need this done. I know when, you know, when 13 comes in, I know they're going to get the job done. If I know I have X, Y and Z to get done, I know I can call in 13 every time. And if you're that company for your battalion chief, medals, certificates, time off, all that, none of that shit matters because you're the guy they're looking to and you have to earn that. To me, that is more of an appreciation than anything for work. Right? Because obviously home life and family and religion, all that's more important than work will ever be. But you know, when you really get to that rapport with somebody over some over over or someone that is not easy to impress, that is squared away at their job, holds people accountable, knows their job inside and out, you know exactly who they are and you know why you look up to them and they're that guy that they're, you know, they have that, that respect for you now. You know, you've earned that respect. You know what I mean? It's, it's, there's nothing else in this world. You know what I m mean that, that can, that can top that. Or if you get into a grace, a gray area and you have a really up call and you have to make a decision, go on this call or stop at this one and, and, and it's a lose, lose for you, right?

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: But you make a decision in that moment with the information that you have, you do it in a, a well thought out, aggressive manner and, and you execute. And they come back and they're like, hey, nice job. You know, that was a shitty situation you stepped up. I mean, there's all kinds of things you can do to create that rapport of mutual respect. I think mutual respect is the ultimate, the ultimate thank you. That isn't something they would go about it, but you know, you've made it. Yeah, makes sense what I'm saying.

Speaker D: No, I, I, I totally agree with that. Uh, you know, I, I think that the acceptance of your crew or your team or, you know, in my Case the department.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: Knowing that they appreciate what you do and you appreciate what they do is the highest level of award. You know, if we had to get off on wearing medals, I'll be honest, and it sounds super corny. I wish they made medals out of that. You know, where it's like, like you just said, mutual respect. Like, like I always talk about mutual trust. Like, it's just we each, we each know each other has each other's back. Like, I'd love, like, you know, put me in my class, say, I'll wear that badge. You know what I mean? I'll put that ribbon on, you know, um, because I think that that separates a lot of people. You know, you get a lot of people, they want to. They want to sit there and they want to hang all their stuff on the walls and they want to. I was the firefighter year for blah blah. I made a grab doing it. And that's all cool stuff.

Speaker C: Like, you should be proud of that.

Speaker D: Sure, yeah, yeah. As I said, that's all cool stuff. But like, like the old on the job award award, you know, accolades, trophies, recognition is when from each level of it, because I've gone through each level of it. So from your crew to your company to your house to your district battalion to your department, when there's that common appreciation for one another, like, you know, I'm glad you're here and you're glad I'm here. That's a huge award, you know, and like I said, I know that sounds corny, but it just, it is. I think that where I'm going with this is just simply this. We don't sign up for this, for trophies and accolades. Some people do, but we shouldn't. So from a leadership perspective, and then even. Even more overall, uh, on a training perspective, you don't. Shouldn't have the objective of recognition or have envy ism, which it happens to others when they get recognized. If at anything, you should know what you are doing. And then back to that accountability piece, you know, I just started this thing called firefighter at a quarter in my department. And I did it because where I work doesn't really do a good enough job of a certain level of recognition. And you don't have the camera on, but you can see me. So the shirt that I'm wearing, this says KE on it, right? Federal Firefighter ke. Um, and KE is the code for, uh, um, your reporting time with no pay. So when there was the government shutdown, the firefighters had to go to work because they'd lose their job if they didn't. And because they needed to, you know, protect the area that they, that they worked at. And they did it for six weeks with no pay. That's three pay periods. Three full pay periods, mortgages, kids, everything. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: No pay.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: And, and, and you know, and, and yet they were still showing up and still doing their thing. So, you know, through the haste of the hiring freezes and the shutdowns and you know, us being short staffed and us having to pay overtime but then not being able to pay people or whatever, right. I talked to, uh, you know, a couple of my, my chief officers and we decided to do this. And at first I was always kind of like, that's kind of corny, you know, but it, but it's good because now what it's doing is, is the proper people so far are being recognized for, for what they're doing, what they're bringing to table. And then it's actually inspiring, not through jealousy, but through positive envy. People are like, well, I want to fucking get that. You know, and that's what we're doing.

Speaker C: That's, I think that's human nature.

Speaker D: Right?

Speaker A: It's.

Speaker D: But those are awards that, that are meaningful. It's inspiring people to work toward a goal simply just participation, just showing up. I mean that's, you know, that's where, that's how we got down this rabbit hole is just we don't, we don't want to have a culture where society may be telling you, you know, hey, you know, you woke up this morning so fucking but that don't work in the fire service.

Speaker A: This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage M motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability various 18 plus uh, right now

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Speaker C: I do Think there might be something to be said about who. Trying to think how to say this. You and whoever decided to do this and started giving that recognition out. I think getting the award from you is different because of who you guys are. Because if you had a fire chief that nobody respected or liked, do you really think guys would be like, I'm not going to that award ceremony. I'm not doing that. Screw that person. F. That person.

Speaker D: Unfortunately, uh, I don't. I don't like to speak poorly about predecessors, but I'll say I've worked for chiefs, that they bought pizza for the entire on duty crews. All the crews that were on duty, everybody that was working, um, on payday. Um, I know that. What. Since I've been chief, I was asked one time by one of the lieutenants, you know, so and so used to buy us pizza. I said, I don't need to fucking buy your love.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, the other thing, too, But.

Speaker B: But they.

Speaker D: But they knew what I meant when I say, you know, I wasn't being condescending. Like, I don't. You know what I mean?

Speaker C: Like, I don't know you. You. The thank you from a chief would come into like. I had a. I had a fire chief who's retired, so I can say who it is. It's Mark Bayshore. And I was a shift firefighter in Bowie. And on Saturdays. And we had everything pulled out. Just two guys. Two. Just two of us. We had everything pulled out. Sweeping mop and whatever. He'd go on his. He lived in the neighborhood. He'd go on his morning run, swing by. Hey, guys, how you doing? Blah, blah. Like, as he's trotting through the open bay.

Speaker D: Hey, hey, guys.

Speaker C: Thanks for what you're doing. Have a great day. Floors look great. Zoom zips off. Yeah, whatever. See you later. And then eventually he'd show back up, get fuel, come by, say hi, talk. And this is the chief of department. Just a regular citizen running. I mean, I don't know if a regular citizen would run through. You know, he just. He came, ran through, said hi. Like, we knew who he was. Hey, chief, how you doing? Whatever. But he built that rapport because he gave a. He was also a firefighter in a good. In good spots, like, good parts of the department. He. He went every rank all the way up. You know what I mean? And. But so he's kind of been there, done that in the sense of, you know, he kind of speaks the language. He understands it, but he also knows he's not one of the guys Right. And I think when you're a well respected chief, if you're. Dave is a well respected chief, I want your recognition because I know you know what you're talking about.

Speaker D: Talking about.

Speaker C: I know your standard is so high because of what you practice and how you, uh, carry yourself and what you do and the accountability you hold me to and you give me a recognition. Whereas Chief Smith went into the office as a firefighter, came back out, is now they're an assistant fire chief or deputy chief or battalion chief or whatever chief you want. You went and disappeared. I never saw you do anything ever. And then you come in and you want to give me a bunch of right? Or you come in. Yo, great job, Bob. It's like, man, I don't even like who the are you? You know what I mean? Like you're. You're an officer.

Speaker D: Tell you guys I appreciate everything you guys do.

Speaker C: Why do you appreciate it Keeping on? Yeah. Why do you appreciate it?

Speaker D: Tell me one thing. Tell me one thing I did that you were. You, you appreciate. Well, you know, you just. Everything all right, man?

Speaker C: Get the.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: There's offices. Those offices are terrible at 3 o' clock in the morning with 6 inches of snow and we're sitting on the side roof because our chain ripped apart. Freaking ripped off. And now we're stuck. Like, get out.

Speaker B: Uh-huh.

Speaker D: Of here.

Speaker C: Which brings me to my next point is it's always the. It's finishing this point and moving into the next. It's always about who the recognition is from. Because the metal is just metal. The ribbon is just fabric. None of it means anything right. If there's not context of who it's from. Substance, substance, who you earned it with. Because I think if I'm on a fire and me and you and I rescue this kid, we don't need a medal. You and I know what happened. We have that rapport. I now know. Well, not. I'm probably sure I know from before. But that bond gets even more solidified because now we went through some more together.

Speaker D: Right. Right.

Speaker C: We went through six weeks of not being paid. We went through Covid together. All this microaggressions of. Of. Of despair and tragedy. You know, you. I was around when your. Your girlfriend broke up with you.

Speaker D: You were around.

Speaker C: My dad died. Like there's all this that just.

Speaker D: Yeah. What you go through.

Speaker C: Yeah. And the medals mean nothing. You know what I mean? I don't even remember what documentary it was. It was some old one that my kid was watching. But basically he said, you know, Metals, none of that shit matters. A pat on the back, you know, from the guys that I. That I'm with, because it means all.

Speaker D: That's how. That's what I was attributing to that before, you know, like that. To me, I know it sounds corny.

Speaker C: It's just.

Speaker D: That means more than anything. And it's not narcissism. It's just this. Is this. Are things a little different? It's just that recognition from people where, you know what you do matters and they appreciate it, that is the biggest reward ever.

Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, especially if there's somebody in the fire department or, uh, fire department. If there's somebody in your station or, like, on your crew and, you know, you're doing like. I mean, we're not professional athletes, but we're doing something pretty damn difficult. Not everybody can do this. Like, I'm pretty sure there's more, you know, professional athletes than there are career firefighters. Globally or not globally, if you think about it. Right.

Speaker D: Probably more athletes than firefighters. That's for sure.

Speaker C: That's what I mean.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: What did I say? Firefighters and athletes?

Speaker D: No, I mean professional, like, I mean, it's possible, but I would say in comparison and in general, just, there are more people involved with sports than there are, uh, in the fire service.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think. What I think is, you know, as a newer firefighter, you know, whoever, you know, throughout your career, there's guys that you look up to that are like giants. You're like, man. Yeah, that's Dave McClellan. He works at Engine 13. They go to fires all the time. And he told me, good job. Like, the feeling that you get from that, like, guys like that. That you hold on that level. Like, I want to work at Engine one. They're the busiest one, or squad five or. Or truck five or truck three, whatever. And they're like, hey, man, got an opportunity? What do you think about coming and doing a trial at truck 3? You can ride for a pay period or two. We'll see if you got it. If you don't, you go back to your company. If you got it, you can stay. Like, imagine what that feels like. Versus, hey, man, you know, great job. Here's a great job. You know, you. You made a grab. The person ultimately died, but here's a medal on Medals Day.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: What would mean more to people, you know what I mean? Or. Or the ones that. That just want to go to job, go to. Go to. Go to work, do their job and get along with their guys and be respected versus People that do something that's borderline and then, you know, apply for medals. You know what I mean? I mean, it's out there.

Speaker D: Well, I know it's the truth. I mean, even where I work now, and I'm not gonna incriminate myself. I'll just say, you know, uh, they're the. On a larger scale of things, um, they have, uh, these, uh, these larger awards. So when I say larger, I'm not gonna say, uh, who I work for, but.

Speaker C: Oh, get the gist.

Speaker D: Yeah, it's. It's pretty big, right?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Down. You're good, right?

Speaker D: You know, and, uh. And, uh, you know, they marinate. May not be all that they can be sometimes, but what I'm saying is it's pretty big. And they have these.

Speaker C: Just feel they're proud, right?

Speaker D: No, but they have this full thing, uh, you know, the department of wide, where they have firefighter of the year, fire inspector of the year, you know, civilian, because, you know, of the makeup of it being federal. So civilian firefighter of the year, civilian fire inspector of the year, civilian fire officer of the year, civilian fire Chief of the year, you know, civilian fire department, small category, where you're two companies, and medium, where you're, you know, three or more companies, and enlarge, where you're five to, you know, more. And. And then I think extra large, where it's so on and so forth, and they have all these categories, and you could really, like. I'm not even saying it's biased because of my department. Like, I could literally. My guys fucking crush it. They're out there doing it, and there's always room for improvement. And I think that's why we're crushing it, because we create an environment where they. They need. They know they need to get better every day. But I'll tell you, man, like, I've been all over, and there's great folks that I worked with and great missions that I've been part of, but my guys love being firemen, and they're really good at it, and they get to be firemen. And I. If I were to write something like that, like, fucking just, you know, in my, uh. Because I'm a writer and I were able to capture that and articulate it and make it sound so sexy, I still wouldn't win because there's a format and how this. This awards package is submitted, and it's all about how it's written and what bullet points meet this certain criteria and this calculated criteria and, you know, and. And. And then. And Then they, they, they make their choice, right? And, and I'm like, I look at some of this sometimes and I'm just like, get the out of here. You know what I mean? Like, it almost makes that, that, that high award, this large award, okay, Meaningless because. Or devalues the validity of it because, you know, uh, you're going off of this criteria you created and how it's formatted and what kind of bullet points and what kind of calculation they can quantify to say, oh, well, so, and so is a great inspector because they inspected 906 buildings. Like, yeah, but I mean, like, I've worked in the, in the department long enough that I know that there's inspectors that'll go out on UTV and just fucking pencil whip and be like, yeah, those buildings look good, they're inspected and then report that they inspected 906 buildings. You know, so it's like, like, come on now. So I, I do believe that, um, in the conversation that we're having, just that piece of it is some of these criterias on how awards are given, they also devalue it. And that's why when you get that, uh, attaboy from within, when the person that's handing you the recognition or stating the recognition is true and meaningful and, and credible, that's where it means something. You know, it doesn't matter who else got their name on the wall or on a plaque for whatever. The fact that this guy who I respect thinks that I did, all right, that's huge.

Speaker C: Yeah. If I have to apply for it, to me it's just an item of a time in my career if I have to earn it from guys that you don't have an application process. And it's a continual piggy bank of trust and give and take and cap leadership capital, I think it's called, where you always have to pay into that bank of it and it's going to ebb and flow, it's going to go up and it's going to go down. You're going to do. You're going to have good days, you're going to have bad days, you're going to have great days. I think when you get the love and support on your shittiest days on your peaks and valleys, right? So if you get the same love and stuff on your valleys as you do on your peaks, think I think you've made it. I think, you know, being absolutely annihilated at work over everything and anything get, uh, mean, you can't get away with shit like I was an officer and I got absolutely roasted. Balls broke like the most I've ever had. And the longer I worked with a group of guys, the worst it got, the more intense it got, the more it was never personal. That's. That's not the right way. I don't know why I was gonna say personal, but the more like I didn't get away with anything. Like, I got my balls broke more then than I did when I was a rookie. And I think there's a reason, right? You. You want that like it was. I wouldn't say give me a complex, but it's just like, Jesus Christ. I would hate to see what happens if you all hated me. But I know what happens when they hate you. Silence. I've been through it. I've been blackballed. I've been, you know, that guy. So the point of all of this, and we're hitting that mark where I think this is a nice place to wrap this up. I think on a leadership level, creating the environment of mutual respect through action, mutual respect through experience, like what you've experienced together. And I think being able to foster a situation where I value your approval or, uh, value your respect and approval more than I would value any item. I think you've made it. I don't think that comes without working very hard. I don't think that comes without being vocal and open about your standards Persona or displaying, uh, those standards, like whatever my standards are, non negotiables for you is through, uh, by example. You think I embody absolutely everything and anything I expect from you. I also think that it's all a manner in how you talk to people. I think that's everything. So. Dave, I do appreciate you coming on here. Yeah, it's been a great. You know, as we talked about in the. When we were at the conference, uh, together and prior to recording, you know, I didn't expect anything other than absolutely amazing. You're a smart guy. I can't appreciate or I can't thank you enough for your time. Is there anything else that we missed or anything you wanted to say before we go? Anything?

Speaker D: No, I, uh, I don't mean to volunteer myself, uh, for your, for your, uh, uh, platform. But, uh, I think you and I can go down another rabbit hole about a whole nother subject and make it, make it another good hour.

Speaker C: You're coming back on. Don't you worry.

Speaker D: I'd be interested to do something else again later. I, I really would like. Like, I looked at the time on this and I was like, oh man, like, you know, there's, there's, there's some good topics that we're talking about. I'll just say that. So, you know, just the, the, the, the regular, um, do outs. So thank you. I sincerely mean that, you know, any opportunity I get to talk shop with somebody, whether it's, ah, on a podcast or whatever, I'm always going to do it because I, I love our thing. Right. I'm very passionate about it. Um, and I, and I'm very attracted to other passionate people that, that, that love our thing. And sometimes we love it for different reasons, but nonetheless we love it. And I think that that's what's really important. I'll say that in, you know, the time that you and I have had together, we covered, ah, a number of different things about micromanaging, about leadership, about, you know, false accolades. You know, we delved a little bit into, uh, you know, some, some mental health stuff. Um, and there's a lot that goes on in our fire service. But I'll say you don't always have to be on your game and be perfect and right every time, but you need to be doing things with the right intent and the right reasons, and that comes from a moral compass. And it's okay to mess up and fuck around and be a jokester and fall on your face from time to time. It's actually encouraged because it makes us better. Right. Patton said, I don't measure a man by how high he climbs, but how high he climbs after he hits rock bottom. You know, so humility is a big piece of it. But I will say that the takeaway for me just in this conversation, and hopefully we have more, is there's a lot that surrounds our fire service, but as long as you are truly married to it, you're passionate about it, you love it, and you try to always do the right thing and try to make yourself accountable and better. You're going to have a great career and you're, and you're only going to get that much better at it because you love it that much.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, I agree. And you can't lead anybody else if you don't lead yourself. And that starts with your moral compass. That starts with humility. That starts with genuine effort. That starts with, with within yourself. And if you can't lead yourself, you can't lead anyone. So, you know, just to touch on one more thing real quick, you know, I don't want a crew where everyone's perfect because I want to be able to know that if you Fuck up, I got you, right? And if I fuck up, you got me. You know what I mean? No one's ever going to be perfect and I don't think anyone's ever going to expect perfection in the sense of interpersonal, personal uh, skills and that stuff. You know. On the fire ground it's not about your mistakes, it's about recovery. Everything is a recovery. The fire ground, fire service, leadership, last few nine years of my life, being a parent. I think life in general is a gray area and you need to learn, learn to be able to operate in that gray area. If you don't learn how to operate in that grid area, you're going to lose. Especially in the fire service you get 80% of the information and you have to make a decision and everything is rapid and where I'm going with this is in a high tempo environment where everything is like, go like act, act, act, act, act, act. That's what it feels like on the fireground. As an officer in a fast paced world, I think people needed just don't forget to take a step back and really appreciate the moment and appreciate those you are in those moments with and appreciate the moment as well. So Dave, thanks again. I appreciate you. We're going to talk more and you're going to, you're going to get back on here because I think I've got about four things we're going to.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, I would love it, man. I think it'll be good because uh, like I said, I just, I know that there's a number of things that we could just probably book out and just make that the focus for you and I to just.

Speaker C: Hell yeah.

Speaker D: You know, just, just offload about, you know.

Speaker C: Yeah. Brain dump.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Awesome, Dave, thanks. Thanks again, I appreciate it. Um, I know you work with um, your, you have your department and then you do uh, you write fire engineering and uh, you have your own books. What's a great place to be able to.

Speaker D: I appreciate that man.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: So I mean you can find me all over on social media under Dave McGlynn McGlyn and my company that I, uh, my teaching company is called Passion in Leading and that's in not and Passion in Leading because you need to have passion in your leading. And uh, I'm gonna be out at FDIC. I'll be teaching Wednesday the 22nd so you know, hope to catch you there. If uh, any of your uh, listeners are going to be out at FDIC teaching the training officer, do you have what it takes? I have a book that came out a few years ago called the Training Officer available through Firefighter Book Club. And I got a new book coming out called Setting the Standard and I'll be available through Fire engineering books. And lastly, I have a podcast called the Training Officer on Fire Engineering Podcast. So you know, if, uh, if you want to check me out, you want to follow me, just look up Dave McGlynn, Fire Engineering Dave McGlynn, Training Officer, passionate, leading. And you'll find me awesome.

Speaker C: And I'll do, um, I'll add all the links for everything of your Instagram, Facebook, website, all that. Yeah, no problem. Um, and then your podcast link as well. Should all. Should be able to add it all in here so it should be at the episode description, um, if it's not passion in leading and uh, we'll get it all figured out from there but. All right, Dave, well, I appreciate you. You have a great day. Thank you.

Speaker D: Yeah, you too, brother. Stay safe.