Hidden cost of promotions w/ Ronna Weaver

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Workplace Wonders. I'm Blake Cohen, and as you may notice, I am missing our wonderful co host Kara Kirby today. Part of the beauty of the work that we do is sometimes opportunities pop up and we have to jump on them. So she is, I think, in my state, currently in Florida, just down the road. I believe I better text her and see if she wants to hang out. Um, she's normally from North Carolina. Yeah. So I think she's down the road. So I'm going to shoot her a text if she has the time to grab dinner or something. That'd be great. Um, but I am joined by a guest, a friend of mine, a fellow cohort member in my doctoral program, the wonderful Rona Weaver.

Speaker B: Yay. Hi, Blake.

Speaker A: How are you?

Speaker B: I'm, um, well. How are you today?

Speaker A: Um, I'm good. I'm good. Or as I said to you beforehand, I'm okay. In the true sense of okay. I am. I'm not bad. I'm not good. I'm okay today.

Speaker B: Well, hopefully I make you better. This conversation makes you better than okay.

Speaker A: Yeah, I have no doubt. I always enjoy talking to you. Um, one of the reasons I was excited to have you on, actually, is that I feel like we've had many conversations over the last couple years where I've walked away and, uh, left thinking and coming back to you the next day going, rona, yeah. You said something yesterday that made me really think, and I agree with you. Disagree with you, or this is how I see it, you know, whatever it may be. But you. You have a wonderful way of making me think, um, and honestly, uh, pushing me and challenging me, which is a, uh, lovely trait to have and exactly what I think we all need in our lives.

Speaker B: Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, Blake, you're so easy to speak with, and I think you're great at taking information in so that we're able to have these conversations. You're open to listening, and you're open to going back, thinking about it, giving it some thought, and then coming back and saying, hey, this is what I thought about that. So, I mean, it's easy to do with you, Blake.

Speaker A: Well, thank you for saying that. Thank you for saying that. For sure. Um, I was going to keep the compliment train going, but, like, we got to end it at some point. I was going to go right back at you. Um, just know I very much appreciate you.

Speaker B: I appreciate you, too.

Speaker A: So we talked a little bit about the. A topic that we had discussed earlier this semester. And so, for Reference or just for context? So everybody's aware. Rona and I are currently in a course called Qualitative Methods and Naturalistic Inquiry. And really it's. Did I say that right?

Speaker B: Yeah, you did. I'm just thinking naturalistic.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we, we've covered that a little bit on, in the class so far, the naturalistic inquiry part, but it's, I think it's just a, uh, it's like a thread weaved through the entire course. But the purpose of what we're doing now is that essentially we're, we are hosting on our own, uh, individually as students, many qualitative research projects. And Rona, how would you describe the difference between a qualitative research project and quantitative research? Because I think most people are used to seen quantitative research.

Speaker B: They are, they are, they are, they are. And by no means am I an expert. Just want to come on and say that I am a cohort member of yours and I have a regular 9 to 5 out there in the, um, biopharmaceutical space.

Speaker A: Oh, my God, wait, I forgot to ask you to introduce yourself. So go ahead and you can keep this train rolling right now and introduce yourself and.

Speaker B: In the biopharmaceutical space. So. Been doing that for a number of years and I've had some other dibs and dabs in other fields, but this is where I am today and loving it. Loving, um, what I'm doing and the difference that I'm making. Um, and also I feel that making another difference, as you pointed out earlier in my conversations in this doctoral program and in this qualitative research class. And so when you think of quantitative and qualitative, quantitative, you're looking at data. You're primarily doing surveys. You're getting data and you're letting the data drive the answers. Right? Qualitative, you're looking at people's experiences. How are people interpreting things? You're asking questions, and there's no prescribed way of what the answer should be. You're allowing them to tell their story, their truth, and you're picking up those themes and saying, oh, I could see how this could happen. And hence part of the qualitative research. Now, what would you say to that? Would you agree with that or you have something to add when you think of quantitative and qualitative?

Speaker A: Yeah, I, I agree with how you explained it. Quantitative to me is looking at numbers and correlations. So saying that there's like a 60% correlation between X and Y. And, um, I think what quantitative does is add or, sorry, qualitative does is add color to that of going, okay, so what does that mean in terms of somebody's experiences? How do they experience that correlation and what does that look like for them? And I, one of the ways I really liked that they described it was that the purpose of a qualitative research study is to make meaning and to understand, um, how two or more things interact and make meaning of that. Of like what, what does this actually, how does this impact a person? Or how does it impact their perceptions, their feelings, uh, their future? What does this mean for them? And to me that's, it's like my sweet spot. I love it.

Speaker B: And it's like the shared experience of what happened, not what's going to happen, of what's happened. And that's how you're able to talk to it. Exactly.

Speaker A: Right, right, right. That's what they said. It's not predictive necessarily. It's just understanding the experience, either currently or in the past. So as part of our qualitative research class, we've been, we're essentially doing these little mini research projects and um, we've had to decide on a topic and they're all workplace related or leadership related. You had mentioned to me before we started recording that you had shifted because we had an initial conversation maybe a month or two ago about your topic and then you mentioned that you had shifted. So, um, can we just talk for a moment about what your original topic was?

Speaker B: Yeah, sure. And I shifted it because of counsel from the professor.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And I'm okay with that, but I think it's still a burning topic because I wanted to understand, you know, the stressors that employees feel when passed over for a promotion, and particularly women. Okay, right. So that's what I was thinking of as my initial research, um, project.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: When you thought of that, I'd imagine. I think as for all of us, ah, when we think of our research topic or our research question, we believe that there is some type of impact that is going to, the two variables, uh, are going to have on each other. What was your thoughts of what you may find in doing that original one?

Speaker B: Well, you have employees, you have colleagues, they work together, um, each person. And granted, I isolated it to women because that was part of the formulation of the question. However, people in corporate America, nonprofits, wherever you're working, they're working hard, you know, they're trying, uh, to make ends meet. They are, they have financial obligations, whatever they may be. It could be for a parent, it could be for a young child in school, it could be something that they've already just spent their money on. And so now they're working and they're expecting to escalate, continue to thrive in the company, in the organization of some sort. And just imagine you've been working on this job for two years and you've had constant conversations with your boss or different peers, and they tell you this is what is needed in order for you to move to that next level, to go into that next position. And you probably even had a coffee chat with that person in that next position and. Or the hiring manager in that position. You know, you're doing your networking, everything that they tell you to do, right? And next thing you know, you go out and you interview and you're either passed over through the process of the interview, or you have your head down working, and you're thinking you're going to be tapped on the shoulder to take on a position and you're bypassed.

Speaker A: Yeah, the tap never comes.

Speaker B: The tap never comes. You don't even. You don't feel anything. You don't feel even, uh, a breath of air on your, you know, with someone passing by. Nothing at all. Right? So that's a stress, right? That in itself is a stress because people are working hard and they're expecting to be rewarded. Now, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people who love their job, want to stay in that. The position that they're in forever. But for those people who are looking to climb that ladder, you know, or stand on that step or that podium, wherever it is that they're looking to go, that's a stressor once you're being passed over. And then you have to still, you know, wake up the next day, get dressed and go back to work and do that job until something that resembles what you're interested in appears. Right. Because that one position that you had your eye on is now taken. Yeah, it's gone.

Speaker A: Yeah, there's. There's, uh. I, uh, would imagine an immense. A feeling of deflation, just that you had this expectation in your mind and then you've earned the position, um, and then passed over for it. And so what would be the hope of exploring that topic? You know, I think of all of us as real change makers in this program, or people trying to change, uh, even our little worlds, you know, And I think if enough, enough of us do that, we'll actually change the world. And by researching that and creating some sense of meaning or understanding there, what would be the hope that you would see? Because there is an inherent, obvious nature to this. Right. There's always multiple people going for a job. Somebody's got to get passed over, and somebody's got to get selected.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So would your hope be to improve that process of maybe getting passed over easier or giving someone more hope, uh, a softer landing? What is the hope there that you would like to see?

Speaker B: I never thought of the process of making it easier for the employee to get passed over. I mean, that's very emotional. I could never say something like, oh, it gets easier. Getting passed over gets. Is easier.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So part of me is thinking the process and what can we do beforehand in order to prepare people? So let's take this down two tracks. Let's take it down the track of someone who has their head down and they're working and they're expecting, uh, to be tapped on the shoulder. So I believe in that instance and finding out what it is, the expectations of that person. Because there are several people who work that way. Right. Have you ever heard relatives say, keep your head down and do your work? You know, so there are several people who have been taught that over the years. And so for that person, what I would say is, management needs to be aware. Don't say you don't know. You know, you have all these employees and you don't know what everyone is working on. As a leader in your organization, that's part of your responsibility. Yeah. Understand what people are working on, because that's driving your bottom, uh, line. Right. That's helping your revenue, that's helping your profits. So it's important for you to know what's going on. Because each employee is different, and they have different habits, different ways of working, different work styles that they bring to life. It's the manager that has to come in and have, um, you're the commonality as the leader. You're the commonality in this, in the dynamic of the workplace. So it's up to the leader to understand who do they have on their workforce. It's situational. Right. This situational leadership. How do you lead them differently? So for that person that has their head down, what can we do beforehand? What information do we give them to ensure that they're raising their hand? How do we change. Shift their work style a little bit? How do we change that and say, okay, if you are interested, these are the things you should do? How do we prepare them beforehand so that they're not passed over?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so there are a couple of things that you could design. There are some systems that you could put in place in order to make that um, happen. And then I think the other track is the person who does interview for the position. This is the person who has had a coffee chat with the hiring manager in the next department location. Um, this is the person that they probably told them, yeah, go over there. And they've interviewed two or three times for that position within the same company. We're not talking about people who are interviewing outside of the company. We're talking about people who've had longevity within a company and are uh, being passed over. And for those individuals, I see what went wrong in this conversation. What went wrong where there were probably some areas of opportunity, things that they should have worked on and their leaders did not, um, weren't forthcoming and say, these are the things you need to improve upon in order to see, to be seen differently. This is what I've heard, I've asked around on your behalf. Do people know you, are you visible in the organization? The role that you're going to is um, high profile position. There's high visibility here and we want to make you successful. So I think leaders should partner with their employees when they know they are interviewing for a different position to ensure success. Can I give you an example, Blake?

Speaker A: I would love that.

Speaker B: I had a member on my team when I was leaving my role and going into a new position and I partnered with her. I said there were two people on my team and I spoke to both of them about the role and I said, I believe you would be good candidates for this position. And one person said, I love what I do. There are a couple of things going on right now in my life. I just want to stay here in this role. And another person raised their hand. I partnered with her. I talked to her about some things that she ought to be aware of, uh, when she was moving into that next position, whether it was the team that she would now be interacting with. I also talked about her um, her skill set. She was definitely technical. So hands down you couldn't beat her on technicality. Which you would have to um, talk about were the differences of uh, when you're moving from this tier to this tier. And we talked about those differences and I felt that I had been preparing my team members.

Speaker A: You coached, it sounds like you took a coaching position uh, with, with your employee, which I think is, is the role of a leader. That's a leader's job is to coach and mentor.

Speaker B: Mhm. Absolutely. Um, so along there while they had been working with me, I did coach them and then to apply for this position did some more Coaching and gave some great insight that after she got the position she actually said, um, she said thank you. But she also provided me with some insight on some things and I said, told you

Speaker A: it's going to feel good.

Speaker B: Mhm. So when I think about that research. Right, so this is where I was getting to when I wanted to understand the stressors of an employee who has been passed over. You know, what is it that they're experiencing and then what is it that we can do to minimize that passover and, or prepare them, um, to be more successful? You know, what are some systems to put in place because ultimately you want that person to show up and continue to do a good job. You don't want them coming to work and feeling resentful.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And that's where I'm hearing your topic and you know, in my head and I think part of this is training, uh, from some of the professors that we've had and also the experiences I had of working with organizations is okay, what's the business case here? Why would this be important? And I think there's two whys here and they're both psychological to an extent that are going to, uh, end up helping the company be more productive and have loyal employees is that I think if they feel taken care of, feel heard, whether they're being let down or not, their loyalty isn't necessarily going to go away because they're going to be, feel respected as a human being, respected in the process. And I think you are also in the process of doing what you're describing. Whether they get that position or not, you're teaching them important leadership skills. So you're, you're actually helping them level up their abilities regardless in that process. So whether they get this position or not, um, you are helping them grow. So there's multiple benefits to what you're talking about. If there was some care given to that with, to them in the process and afterwards, you know, I see it, I see this as something that lives on long after the process of being passed over.

Speaker B: Oh yeah. I mean it's continuous, right? It's continuous and it happens. Unfortunately it's. But how do we handle it? I guess also there is some of that as an employee, how do we handle it, um, when we are passed over? But if, you know, you have had that, um, psychological safety conversation and you have been supported, you've been partnered, all of these things have happened and then you, you say, okay, well maybe this other candidate is the right candidate at this time for this position. And then you move on. And I guess there are other things that unfold after that because I guess I don't want to go into a whole new set of, um, well, then what happens to that person? You know, how long do they wait? I think that's a whole other discussion that we could get into. But when you think about the qualitative research of this and just understanding the themes that potential, um, participants in that interview would have, I'm thinking some of the themes would be similar.

Speaker A: Yeah. When I think this is where I really enjoy the qualitative research aspect, is that you could look at numbers and say, this is just made up. So Everybody knows that 8% of internal employees who apply for a promotion within their system get accepted. And you hear that there's no human aspect of that. But if you really explored from a qualitative perspective, okay, 92% of people are passed over, what does that mean for them? How does that alter their perceptions of their, their corporation that they're working for, of their employer, their boss, uh, their co workers, of their own self esteem and self efficacy and belief in self. How, how are all of these things affected? And that's where the qualitative piece comes in. And I think with that extra research given to a hiring manager, they can understand that like, okay, there's more to this and I have to be a little bit more careful of how I approach this.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: To me, transparency is the big, like, I, I keep in my head that, uh, what keeps coming up for me is transparency. And if there was more transparency, well, if there was more transparency in the process of going, hey, Rona, just so you know, there's 11 other people who are going for this position. They're all internal. They're all, uh, at the same level of you or above. So there's 11 other people, which means you have a one in 11 shot. You're doing really well right now. But I can't make any guarantees we're going to keep you in the loop as we go along. Hey, we're down to our final five people that we're considering. You now have a 20% chance. You know, like, so you going through it where you can say, okay, and you can not be as affected by it if you're passed over. Because I think there is something, uh, about this process of you are not only going for the position, but there's a bit of courting that happens because they, uh, they're preparing you for this position just in case, so they, they make you feel special by interviewing you, um, and sending you to the second round of interviews, then the third round of interviews. You feel special in this process. And I just, I just think, and I think if you, there was full transparency in the process. Um, a ah, you should feel special in that. But also there's a bit of reality checking that has to happen of going, don't overly prepare for this promotion. Um, we are level setting. Exactly, exactly, exactly.

Speaker B: And on the flip side when you talk about that transparency, do you know how many um, interviewees normally say oh I, the uh, I never heard back

Speaker A: from the hiring manager all the time.

Speaker B: Even internally. That's terrible. When you hear that.

Speaker A: I get to learn about a lot of my experiences on LinkedIn and I watch a lot of people say various things on LinkedIn. And one of the main complaints I'm seeing actually from a lot of recruiters is um, a how often people's time is wasted with organizations of having people go through three, five. There was one, I think I saw seven interviews plus like a problem solving test and all these different things they go through and only to say oh actually we hired someone external for this position.

Speaker B: Can you believe that?

Speaker A: Yeah. And it's just a waste of time. So it's uh, there's so much that I think needs to be fixed in the hiring process. I'll also say uh, just to give the benefit of the doubt or play devil's advocate here.

Speaker B: I'm sure no devils, no devils in this conversation.

Speaker A: Okay. So just we'll, we'll do some benefit of the doubt giving them. Yes, I'm sure there's a, it's a very complicated process at ah times and I'm sure everybody's busy and everybody's time is limited and I think that's where really some structural, systematic changes that can be put into place like what you're discussing and maybe some partnership in this process like letting a leader know, hey, this person is looking for this promotion. Can you help them, lift them up and guide them, you know, making sure you're partnering with other, other people. Um, there may be some ways to

Speaker B: fix this and let the leader know what you're seeing in their employee to help with their competency. Mhm. Let them know this is what we've seen. You know, this is an area of growth for them so the leader can start working with them as well. I don't see anything wrong with the recruiter, um, the internal recruiter sharing that back. Many times these recruiters are also the people who are making offers so they know what people are making. So hey, why, why not let the leader know what they need to do in order to ensure the success of their team. I want to go back to something you said about that 8% earlier, the example that you gave. And that's the quantitative piece of it, right. When we're just looking, um, some type, someone's filled out some survey somewhere along the line and they said 8% of the people are being hired internally. That was the example that we made. You know, the fictitious example.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: And it's interesting, I like the way you then flipped it around and you said 92% of the internal people are not being hired. Once again, this is a fictitious number that we're just using for company X. Right. And you said 92% of the people are internal, are not being hired. The internals are not being hired or promoted into that next position. And that's one of the things that sometimes people either do or do not trust about the quantitative data, uh, as well, because when we just Talked about that 8% is like, oh, okay, 8% of the people, um, are being promoted. Hey, yay, that's great. But then when we flip those numbers around, right, and we said the internals are not being promoted 92%. And here's why. Here's the qualitative, here's. Based on their experiences, here's what they said, these are the themes. So it's interesting how you can get rich data out of that qualitative research in order to prove what the quantitative is telling us.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I, I agree. And, and again, those are fictitious numbers. I, I don't know what they would actually look like, but I would always imagine that the, the majority is going to be on the side of being passed over. In reality, if we actually knew those numbers, which is something for hiring managers to consider, or not just hiring managers, managers, leaders, um, organizations to consider that if there is a position that's open and majority of people are being passed over for it, who are going for it, and then there's one person who's the winner, quote, unquote. Um, we really may want to consider putting in some types of practices to take care of those that majority of people, yeah, sure. That one person got the job. They're happy. There's a majority over here that's going, I was passed over. What's wrong with me?

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: What's wrong?

Speaker B: But, and you know what, Blake, that just made me think of something. If you, we gave once again the example of you're one of 11 people who are in this hiring process. Why are we interviewing 11 people? Why, why are you interviewing 20 people? Maybe there ought to be some type of framework put in place where you're starting off. You're going through the resumes, you're doing the due diligence and going through those so that you're able to bring in your top five. You know, look at those resumes and bring in your top five. And therefore you're not wasting the time of 11 people that we talked about. You know, I just like to continuously put it out there that we're talking about fictitious numbers out here and things can happen.

Speaker A: And I was going to say too, that, uh, of course this varies from organization to organization. I'm sure there's organizations that do make those considerations. I know somebody who works for a very large, large, large organization that we all know and all use. And there is a almost like anti human aspect to how they provide promotions. It is based purely on numbers. So you are called once a year and it says, this is your numbers. You are at the top of the numbers of whatever it is and you have earned the promotion.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: And it's. So there's not much consideration given. You're never really up for a promotion. It's just who had the best numbers. Okay, we'll give you, we're going to give you a higher bump or promotion or whatever that looks like a raise.

Speaker B: And who knows, that may not be what the person wants. Maybe they want more vacation time. Maybe they want, you know, work different hours or a bonus increase.

Speaker A: I will tell you, by the way, that this organization, uh, also makes those numbers nearly impossible to hit. So it's like, great, you hit it one year. I actually need you to hit that same number and higher three years in a row if you want to actually get the promotion. And if you miss it for one quarter, you're out. It's the person I know, it's like, it's just a constant frustration that they're dealing with of going like, lost it because of some outside circumstance that I had no control over. You know, it's. There's very little consideration when you're just giving promotion based off numbers.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I want to move. Um, and this has been a very rich conversation and I've enjoyed it. I want to move to. So where did you land in terms of your qualitative research? What did you decide? Because right now I know we're writing up our interview protocol paper. So where do you end up landing?

Speaker B: I. I'm not going to provide, um, my statement. Okay. But I did land on a good question that would now help managers. I landed on a good question that once understanding the themes that come out of it, would help managers moving forward and managers would get the support that they need. Um, because when you think about different managers and leaders in organizations, they're juggling multiple things. You know, they're juggling their work, they're juggling their employees work. Not all managers are just able to lead. Um, it's great when someone has that autonomy just to lead an organization and delegate, um, and make some strategic decisions at the top. But there are many times when there are leaders who are, they have their own projects and they're working, so they're managing that book of work. And then they are also given direction to their employees. So based on my question and knowing what managers go through on a daily basis, I'm looking to be able to come alongside and support them, um, once the evidence comes out.

Speaker A: Cool. I love that I saw a statistic yesterday, um, because there's been a lot of conversation about middle managers. And it's really kind of the most popular position for managers these days is to be a middle manager. And there was some statistic and I can't remember who reported it, but it was a credible Source. But basically 71% of middle managers feel under supported, which is a wild statistic. And to think it's, it is a very tough position. Right. Uh, your, your hands are tied in a lot of ways because there's decision makers above you and you're also passing along information and trying to manage the people who are doing a lot of the more important work, the lower level, more important work, uh, within organizations. So you're managing them and managing their emotions and you're also trying to manage up as you go through. And it's a really tough place to be. You're kind of getting it from both ends.

Speaker B: Both ends, Both ends. And so it's interesting that you say 71% do not feel like they're supported. So that means only 29% feels, uh, as though they're supported. Wow. That's not a lot.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: When you think about an organization, that's really not a lot.

Speaker A: No. And it's a tough position. And I think a lot of people who are doing what we do, you know, or organizational development folks, they're, they're starting to shift the focus towards those middle managers because I do think there's a sweet spot in there and if we can train them, um, uh, and I don't have the solution, honestly, I would say I don't know exactly what they would need to be trained on.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Um, but if we can provide that support, you know, there might be some, there might, the company may really, uh, benefit from that.

Speaker B: Yeah, they can, it can only go up from there. If you can change that 71% year over year, reduce that number to people who do not feel as though they're supported and feel that they are. I mean, that's, you know how many people spend X amount of years in an organization? And then you wonder why sometimes people leave one organization and go to another. Um, part of it is the support and the resources that they need in order to do their jobs.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I think a lot of middle managers, and this is just a belief I have, but a lot of middle managers do end up leaving their current organization to get a promotion somewhere else. To be able to move up the ladder somewhere else.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Happens all the time.

Speaker B: All the time. And we know that that costs companies, what, millions of dollars over time. Costs lots of money. Uh, and even just to replace one person is thousands of dollars.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's, it's an expensive process.

Speaker B: So it's, I say it's cheaper to keep them.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, it really is cheaper to keep them and build them up.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: You could spend a thousand dollars on training them or you could spend 10,000 to replace them.

Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. And you have a culture right there and culture is important to organizations. And you have a culture that now someone coming in new has to learn about your culture. Um, and I mean that, that's a whole other conversation as well. When we think about company cultures. If it's the right type of culture, um, probably people would want to stay if it's the right type of culture.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. Mhm. We have a lot of conversations about that.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Well, as we wrap up, I'm curious. I, um, know for me, I have felt many different personal, professional changes within me from the doctoral program. I'm curious if you've had that same experience, you know, in full transparency. I, I think maybe I'm, it's a bit exacerbated for me, but I don't know that to be true just because I did make this career shift.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I'm learning a whole new side of business, um, in this program. But I'm also expanding my understanding of self, of how I show up in the world and, and, and ways to help other people. And so I'm curious if you have felt growth and maybe which areas do you feel the growth was the strongest? Oh,

Speaker B: I am feeling good.

Speaker A: Qualitative question.

Speaker B: Yes. What are the themes here? What are the themes? I am feeling growth and I think there is a constant internal reckoning of uh, what do I do with this? And I find that to be a little challenging. Okay. I find that to be a little challenging.

Speaker A: Can you tell me more? We've been doing hypothetical uh, examples this whole time, so feel free to throw out a hypothetical example.

Speaker B: What I can say is being a doctoral student right there come. It comes with responsibility. It comes with all of this knowledge where taking in, we're taking in all this knowledge. We're learning about thought leaders, we're learning about who came up with this, who came up with that, what Freud and this, we're understanding all of this information and, and now it's time to apply it. Right? It's now time to put it in, in good use, put it into an organization, put it into some type of coaching format, you know, depending on how you're going to use your skill that you've, you've gained in being in this program. And so what I see for me is immediately being able to use it where I am today and based on my, today's interactions. And I love it when it comes out when I'm in um, different meetings or um, one on one conversations and I'm like hey, hey, where'd that come from? Um, you know, I'm pulling this stuff out but I love it when it's, when it comes through and because it makes sense and I, yeah, I think that it makes sense and it comes through and topics or situations that you didn't realize before, you're now able to recognize it, say oh my goodness, is this what is going on here? You're recognizing things that probably definitely went over your head before. Um, you weren't aware, you know, how to put it in this place, you know, how, how does this work together. But now you're able to pull together these constructs and I think it's just wonderful.

Speaker A: Yeah, I, there's a lot to relate to there and I think that is you. I, I uh, think the biggest shift for me, I'll say is my thinking or how I think and how I come to conclusions and being able to not just apply concepts that we're learning about, um, but in the famous words of our first professor, Dr. Jacobs, to synthesize those subjects and those different concepts and kind of integrate them into our ah, reality and then being able to make decisions about them or using, informed by, by those thoughts I think has been really interesting. Um, I feel a Sense of, of calm in a way, um, seeing scenarios. I think I. Here's a great example.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: There was a situation recently where a bunch of people, a very close person, close to me, they ended up. They had to lay off about half of their. Their, uh, I'm gonna see. I'll just say organization. I don't want to give any way identifying details away.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: So they had to lay off about half of their organization. And um, they were shocked by the reaction of the remaining folks. Okay. And there was an immediate. My advice when I found out what they were doing was, hey, expect the people who are remaining to start behaving rather strangely. And they were like, I don't know what you're talking about. And then it happens where the four or five people that are left are acting very different in different ways and being able to say like, well, yes, this is anxiety within a system. And anxiety shows up differently for different people. And when there's someone, there's people let go, especially half of the organization, there's a message and perceptions that are being sent. So what's needed now is clarity, leadership, and use this as an opportunity to bring people together. And like, I'm just kind of pulling from all of the different stuff that we see. So I think I say all of that to say I think there's a clarity that was missing prior of thinking, uh, anxiety was just people being anxious and it was their own problem. And realizing now of how much just something as big as laying off half of the organization or just something as little as a leader not being clear enough in a statement can cause anxiety or cause or has a ripple effect.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I, I just think it's been an interesting way. I think I'm better at connecting dots. Okay, you finally arrived at what I'm trying to say. I think I'm better at connecting dots.

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely.

Speaker A: I didn't realize existed before. Um, there is also a, an inherent, um, you mentioned of like, how am I going to apply this? What is it going to look like as we. We have a responsibility now. Yeah. I think for me it's a mix of curiosity, some anxiety, and then, um, to be honest, is like a spiritual faith almost of like I'm just trusting this process to know that if we keep doing the work, we keep showing up and giving it our all, like something good is going to happen and the anxiety and curiosity are going to find their answers. So it's like this, these combating forces going on, which I think I started mostly with anxiety, then added curiosity eventually and now the faith has come in of going, okay, there is some mastery that's happening. I just need to keep trusting the process, and everything else is going to be fine.

Speaker B: Ah. Uh, triangular effect.

Speaker A: Yes, but with, like, one side growing larger. The faith side growing larger. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, I've failed geometry, so I don't. I don't know.

Speaker B: I loved math.

Speaker A: Did you? Oh, man, that is not my area. Well, Rona, thank you so much for taking the time to join me. This was a great conversation.

Speaker B: I enjoyed myself immensely. Blake, thank you for having me.

Speaker A: Are you comfortable if we send people to your LinkedIn to follow you?

Speaker B: Absolutely. They m can come and they can follow me. Right now, it's just me and my resume, but if people follow, I will build.

Speaker A: Okay. Exactly. We just need one at a time, not those followers. All right, thank you so much, everybody. Thank you for listening today or watching, and we will see you again soon.