Transformation: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Speaker A: Welcome back to the Transform Talent Podcast brought to you by Talent Solutions. I'm um, your host, Georgina Huntley. Transformation near enough. Every business has to transform in some shape or form to stay in line with this ever changing world that we're in. But how do we really manage transformation in a way that really doesn't disrupt the day to day operations or risk leaving the people behind? Luckily for us, we are joined today by two experts in recruitment transformation, Claire Lewis and Amelia Doughty. Amelia and Claire are both part of the global talent acquisition team at wtw. We're going to be discussing their personal experiences and expertise in the world of transformation, the good, the bad and the ugly. We'll then be diving into what transformation means for leaders who are really trying to manage transformation as part of their ongoing business. Let's get stuck in. So first off, let's get to know a little bit about you both and your own personal transformation stories. Um, I'm going to come to you first Claire on this one us a little bit of an insight into you and what was your first job?

Speaker B: Sure. Hi there. Um, so my first job um, was a filing clerk. I didn't know what I wanted to be when I left school and after traveling I think my father got fed up of me being a typical teenager lying around. Um, so he sent me off to get my first job which was a filing clerk and I took my mother along with, to the interview. So, you know, I definitely can say that I've managed to progress from there and not take my mother to future interviews. Um, as, as you say, I live in the UK in, in, in the, in Suffolk. Um, I'm married, I have a very spoiled black cat who pretty much dominates the existence. Um, and yeah, I have pretty much done recruitment in some shape or form for the last 20 years, um, probably with the last 10, 11 years in leadership roles. So that's all but about me.

Speaker A: Brilliant. Thank you Claire and it is great to have you with us today. Um, Amelia, how about yourself?

Speaker C: Um, hi Georgina. Um, I have um, a similar length of career in recruitment as Claire, so my first job was um, actually as a recruiter. So I left university also not really knowing what I was going to do when I grew up. Still not entirely sure if I know what I want to do when I grow up. But I'm happy for the time being. Um, and I started in agency recruiting um, in the early careers space and that took me on a kind of 15 year journey through various professional services organizations doing early careers program management and recruitment until I Jumped into experience hire, um, about eight years ago, um, and I live in the uk, also in Hertfordshire, um, with my husband and three kids. And yeah, much like Claire's black cat, they dominate everything. Um, and um, yeah, I'm really enjoying my role at the moment. I'm um, UK and I, um, recruitment director for wtw.

Speaker A: Brilliant. Thank you so much. And I, I want to say empathize, but I'm not sure it's the right word. But I have both child and cat and both dominate my life completely. So feel your pain there. Um, okay, so let's, let's go, let's, let's think back and say if you were to be speaking to your 20 year old self, um, what would be your top tip or your piece of advice? And Claire, if I can ask you that first.

Speaker C: Sure.

Speaker B: And I don't know if it's something that I've started to embrace as I've entered, not just entered my 40s, I've been there a while. Um, but I think the advice would definitely be one, don't sweat the small stuff. I think when you start working you feel like you need to know all the answers. I think sometimes we feel that we have to get it right all the time. And actually sometimes my biggest failures have been my best learning. But I had to go through the pain to get to the other side. So for me it's definitely about don't sweat the small stuff and be curious. I was, I should have been a lot more curious than what I was. And as I found confidence in my career, I've been able to ask questions and actually most of the time I do, people are nodding around the room going, yeah, we didn't know that answer either. So it's, it's be curious, be brave, don't sweat the small stuff.

Speaker A: Lovely. Brilliant. Thanks. Claire and Amelia, how about you?

Speaker C: Very similar actually. And I think, you know, part of it is um, looking back at a sort of very kind of fearful and overwhelmed 20 something starting out thinking, oh gosh, you don't know anything. Um, but equally, nine times out of ten, like Claire said, if you're asking a question, a lot of people won't know the answer either. And actually just to kind of own that a little bit and not be comfortable asking questions, but also just to back yourself. And it's probably just the advice I should have given myself kind of 20 minutes ago before we started this recording because, you know, a little bit of fake it until you make it because, you know, actually, um, you know, confidence, especially in a People, business like talent acquisition goes a very long way and um, you know, as we'll probably talk about the relationships, help build a lot of those bridges and help you kind of get on in your career as well. So I would say, you know, definitely, yeah, don't sweat the small stuff but also kind of don't worry too much about things that happen early in your career or you know, the learnings that you kind of come across because you know those mistakes you make will always lead you to something else.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Great tips from both of you. Um, for anyone who is in their 20s and going into the world of work now. So thank you. Um, Amelia, I'm going to come back to you on this one. Um, would you be able to, as we're here to talk about transformation, can you give us um, or you're able to share an example of a transformation program that you've been involved in that perhaps you're most proud of?

Speaker C: Yes, something I've been involved with recently um, has been a transformation project looking at operating model, um, about how to deliver talent acquisition in a sustainable uh, way for the long term. And I suppose kind of the you know the biggest challenges have also been the biggest learnings uh from this type of transformation where you're kind of thinking about how you resource talent acquisition, what kind of manpower you need and where and you know all of these kind of big questions about how um, you know, your people, business and the people who are very client and candidate facing interact with your target population. Um, all of those things have come into question and kind of had to be um, reviewed and re engineered and I think trying to deliver a sustainable talent acquisition function. There is no right answer to how to do that. And part of the journey that we've been on, um, like a lot of transformation journeys have cost implications and they're because you're trying to make efficiencies and think about your longer term delivery. And I think this particular project um, has kind of looked at in a relatively short space of time, you know, how to effectively um, you know, work with a team that has had to change um, in lots of different ways that have been quite unsettling and quite um, you know um, dynamic for the, for the team and for the business. And I think the good things that have come out of it have been real good collaboration with all parts of talent acquisition across the business in terms of you know, the recruiting operations team, um, the um, the global talent acquisition leadership and you know, every recruiter on the ground who's had a part to play in, you know, managing the business and managing the change, communication and all of that messaging with the business. So having to kind of re. Engineer and re focus your, um, your personnel and your, you know, all of the people that you've got in talent acquisition is very, you know, it's a huge part because, you know, you are your resources, you are your people in talent acquisition. And so when you have to make changes to those types of, um, dynamics, it can feel like, you know, they are huge wholesale changes. Um, but, um, you know, from my perspective, um, you know, it's been a successful transformation thus far and obviously transformation is a journey. But, um, I think that, you know, in, in terms of trying to turn a big project around in a short space of time, you know, with a budget in mind, with, you know, limited information, everyone's doing something for the first time.

Speaker A: It's.

Speaker C: It will always have challenges. There'll always be bumps in the road and like Claire said, you'll make mistakes and you'll learn along the way. And actually with something like this, you never know how it's going to land until you're actually doing it a lot of the time. So I'm proud that we've gone through it and we've retained, um, you know, composure and our sanity and um, you know, a lot of people are still here at the other side of this big project. But you know, of course it's, it feels very consuming at the time, but likewise, um, you know, ultimately there are business goals to achieve and it's not personal. Um, and I think that coming out of the other side of this project, it's been, um, you know, a lot of hard work, but some really good rewards.

Speaker A: Brilliant. And it's really lovely to hear you talking about pride, um, of something that. Yeah. Or identifying that pride isn't about perfection. Pride is about the journey that you go along, um, through any of these transformations or whatever it is that you're undertaking, but the learning that you've just indicated as well along the way and that fundamental piece around people being at the center of it, um, it is really nice to hear from you. Um, and Claire, if I can ask you, what advice would you be offering leaders who are trying to manage transformation across really specifically, I guess around multiple regions with different legislation, languages, etc. Because that's really complex and you know, there will be many businesses facing that, um, perspective. We'll get into some of the detail on leadership and change. But if you, I know you've got experience there. If you can share some of Your advice on that, that sort of comple of transformation?

Speaker B: Sure. And, and, and you know, one of the, the very real examples that come to to mind was that when the organization merged with Willison Towers Watson In I think 2016, we went about having to harmonize in Western Europe three legacy firms. So three different ways of working across 16 different countries. Um, and quite candidly, I was not a subject matter expert in, in all, uh, my advice to anybody that's doing that now is I listened, I listened and I listened some more because I think it's so easy to go in with your global perspective, your global way of working and try and enforce that on the local. And whilst there's absolutely benefit of consistency around a similar way of working, part of being able to see the success of transformation is giving people a platform where they feel that they're being heard and where whether that's works, council legislation, language, capability, you have to make them feel like they're being heard. You don't necessarily have to take everything that they share and build that into your transformation. But if they feel that they're being heard, then when you bring something to them that feels very much out of their comfort zone, they know that you've got their best interests at heart. And part of listening is understanding what does good look like to them. So what do they, A, why do they think this is happening? B, what is important to them from a goal perspective? Because hopefully you can then bring the initiative of the transformation and marry it with what they want to achieve. So you know, to any business leader, they have a P and L, they want to improve their profits. If we find a more sustainable way of working, then that means more profit for their P and L, opportunities to grow, etc. So for me it was definitely when, when we harmonized ways of working in Western Europe, spent a lot of time and it wasn't just with senior leaders, it was about talking to people also that did the doing because sometimes it's very easy to focus on one group. You have to understand how this change is going to impact from the top all the way down. And that way you get to take everybody along the journey. Then it was like what I was proposing, but I think it got to a point where they understood that they trusted me to act in their best interest. And I think that's the advice that I give to leaders is if you listen, get to their level, then you can take them on the journey with you.

Speaker A: Yeah, hugely important. The hearts and minds piece of understanding each person's different perspective or each Party's, each group's different perspective, um, to be able to then articulate the benefit, the reasons that plays to what they need to hear or what their sort of the value is for them is really important. Thank you. Absolutely. We want to talk about, or we're going to move into speaking a little bit more about how to tackle transformation a bit more deeper from the lens of a business leader. So as employees who are currently navigating or thinking of starting a transformation stage in their business, to give them some sort of top tips, ideas, um, sort of thoughts from both of your experiences and expertise. So, Claire, if I can come back to you on this one. Um, we talk about, you know, we're constantly going through transformation, or there's. That there's. There's plenty more transformation on the horizon. But how do leaders. How do business leaders know when it's the right time to start thinking about transformation?

Speaker B: That's a really good question. And I think, you know, I've been lucky enough to work for a variety of organizations in a variety of locations, and I think, you know, that the common theme is that the way that technology is evolving means that we're always transforming in some shape or form. If you, as a business. Business are not transforming, then I worry about your sustainability. So I think it's about getting comfortable with the uncomfortable. Um, and even as a leader, there have been many times where I've had to deliver a transformation initiative that I didn't necessarily agree with, I didn't necessarily fully understand, and perhaps possibly didn't think it was the right thing at the right time. But I think as a leader, I needed to be able to, in an authentic way, get my team on board and go, all right, let's find the positives. Let's understand why we're doing this and what are the benefits of it. Because when people hear transformation, they often go to the negative. Oh, uh, cutting of jobs, pain, change. I'm, um, seeing, you know, things. Things out of my control. And if you can try and focus on, well, transformation, like the idea that. Or the example that Amelia shared, that's allowed us to invest in our. That's allowed us to invest in technology. So, yes, there's no doubt that part of the change has been uncomfortable. Actually. It's allowed us to be more sustainable for a future. And I think that's when, if we can try and take some of the mystery or the pain out of transformation and see it as a good thing, I think people will be more open to it. But the rate in which things are changing with technology, with ways of working. I think, think if you're not constantly evolving, you're going to get left behind.

Speaker A: Yeah, agree. It's. It's a real critical sort of element that we talk about a lot in, in our workplace is that is building the change muscle in our leaders so that they're constantly, um, you know, constantly in change mode, I suppose, and helping to bring their people along the way with the same sort of mindset. And speaking of transformation, um, and I suppose from the, from the lens of a leader, um, but also with thinking of the employees that are involved. Amelia, what, what are the. I mean, it may sound obvious, but what are the pros and cons of transformation? And we've touched on it slightly, but if you can share a bit more of your, your perspective on that.

Speaker C: Yeah, and I think, um, Claire's, you know, rightly identified so many of the pros. And I think, you know, I always. I was actually having conversation this morning bringing um, um, a third party up to speed about what we've been doing. And you know, and they were kind of. The feedback was, gosh, that sounds huge and, and you know, what a big upheaval. But of course, but you know, my, My response was that actually, you know, if you think about it as an opportunity, not only from a professional, individual perspective, to go through such a great big project and change actually opportunities for all individuals, um, to progress their career or move into slightly different roles or take a lateral move from a people perspective, those opportunities and chances are always there. But I think exactly as Claire said, I think there are so many opportunities to think about, um, harmonizing ways of working and actually you've got an opportunity when you do a transformation project to look at other things that might be on the periphery of the original scope, but then you can say actually within that, we'd love to look at X, Y and Z as well. And that's put this on the roadmap. And so, you know, picking up other things that have always been on your, the bottom of your long list can also come within the scope of those projects as well, within reason. Um, and like Claire said as well, you know, we've been able to create some more sustainability in our model, which means we've able to, we're able to use some investment, um, and you know, work towards some great new pieces of kit and um, you know, technology that's going to improve the lives and of all of our recruiters and hiring managers and candidates. So other than the, the obvious cost saving and you know, Keeping up with the, with your competitors, I think, you know, you don't want to get left behind and those are some of the key pros. I think. Obviously, you know, there's pain points and it isn't easy and it's, it's hard work as well. You know, I definitely feel as though, you know, you do feel like you've been through something quite huge when you're going through a transformation on a personal level. But it's always, I think in my experience it's been worse worth the pain, um, to come out the other side and see what you've delivered, you know, from a point of pride, but also obtaining those business objectives and meeting the goals that have been set out where at the beginning of the project they felt absolutely, uh, unachievable. And realizing that with a really great team behind you, you can actually do that. You know, Claire and I have, um, had each other's backs and worked through this, you know, quite closely. Ultimately we couldn't be prouder of where we've got to in this, in this period. And we're not there yet, yet. Um, but it's been a journey as it always is. And like you say, the old adage, it's the only constant, isn't it? So I think I like that change muscle, um, quote that you talked about, Georgina. I think that's so true.

Speaker B: And I guess what one of the, the cons, if I could add in is, is that I think you have to be very clear about why you're transforming and don't just transform for transform sake. Um, and, you know, not just in terms of the example that Amelia's given, but a couple of projects that I've worked my career. The ones that went well were where there was good planning and we used the data to help inform the decision because sometimes it's based on a feeling or a perception or a stakeholder that's maybe complained that I don't see any value add. If you plan, reference it back to data, then your plan, it's not foolproof. We're still learning, but at least you've got a clear scope of what you're trying to achieve. And I think a con would be on the projects that I've worked with and certainly, you know, that few and far between, but it's where we weren't clear on what we were looking to transform and change. And it was based more on a perception or a murmur rather than good old fashioned data that allowed us then to measure whether, you know, what does good look like. So that's the only thing I'd add from a con perspective.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's a great shout. Um, and when we talk, both of you have mentioned some of the. The pains of going through change from a people perspective. So, um, Claire, if I can carry on with you there on asking you some sort of tips on strategies for coping with change, would be great to hear from you. Sure.

Speaker B: And I think the one thing, and I touched upon it earlier, is about authentic messaging. I think if you show up and you try and pretend that everything's rosy and perfect, then you're going to lose people along the journey. And we all know about the change curve. And I think when you first hear about it, you go into almost that toddler phase where you're like, I want to throw my toys out my cot, stamp up and down, and that's okay. Find a mentor or a coach or a safe space where you can just go, I don't get it. I don't like it. But then you need to be able to move on from that. And that's where I've always found a philosophy that's worked well for me, and that it's surrounding myself by people that will allow me to have the pity party when I need to, but then also to say, all right, Claire, you need to get over yourself now, and we need to move forward, and we can't change it. We can't change the past. So, you know, let's get on this together. Um, and Amelia will know this because, you know, she's worked with. With me now for a little over a year. Humor. I mean, you've got to be able to laugh and cry together. And sometimes you're crying because you're sad, and other times you're crying because you're laughing. And, you know, if you can find an element of fun in what you do, it helps with some of the painful parts. And it's not laughing at people's expenses, and it's not being empathetic to what's happening to people. But you need to be able to say, you know, let's laugh at when things go wrong or have that moment where we can do something that shifts the focus. I think that's what enables me personally to navigate the change, but also as a leader with my team to instill that, you know what? Let's. Let's keep perspective here, and let's try and enjoy the journey. I think laughter, uh, often heals a lot of the uncomfortableness when it hurts the heart.

Speaker A: I love that, Claire. You know, this is you know, we're talking about serious topics and it's, you know, we need to put some of the fun back into it. So. Yeah, great, great that you've pointed that out. Amelia, on, um, this, this point around, strategies for coping with change, um, is there anything additional that you'd want to add from, from what Claire's shared with us?

Speaker C: I think, yeah, it kind of partly comes down to how you communicate what you're going through as well with your stakeholders, because I think, um, you know, to the earlier points about it's not within our control and this isn't something that, that we'd necessarily come up with by ourselves or think that even is a good idea. A lot of the time, you know, actually kind of buying into the messaging from a, um, you know, a business perspective is what you're paid to do. So, you know, to that extent, get on with it. But also, you know, when you know the answer, be transparent about it to the extent that you can, because a lot of people will have a lot of questions and they might be asking questions you don't know the answer to. And if you don't know the answer, that's, that's a simple, it's a simple, it's, it's simple, um, and where you do. To try to be as transparent as possible and I think not only, you know, coping with change, you know, from your own perspective because, you know, we've all had our tantrums about what we were going through, but also then, you know, the people who are impacted around you, you know, and a lot of the if it ain't broke, don't fix it mentality, where actually people don't see a problem with what you're doing in a certain way, but actually there, if there is a better way, why aren't we looking at it and sort of, you know, having that kind of open questioning, well what, why not? Rather than why mentality, um, and sort of almost throwing it back to, to people, but you know, coming at it with data as well, like Claire said, is hugely valuable. And thinking about kind of, you know, scale wins that you can have as a result of this type of transformation project has helped us somewhat.

Speaker A: And we talk about, um, you know, we talk about you guys leading change and supporting transformation. But how, um, how have you been able to navigate change and, or whether if a leader that is listening when, when change directly impacts you and you're part of delivering that change. Um, I don't know. Claire, if you've got any sort of advice on how you've been able to navigate change when it's, when it's impacting you directly.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's easy sometimes to preach, isn't it? About, here's the best practice and how do you actually put that into your own practice, Claire? Well, not so much. Um, I think it's balance and it's being able to. I'm a huge advocate for mental health, and I think sometimes it's about being able to say, look, today is not a good day and I'm going to walk away and I'm just going to take some time for me and I'm going to come back tomorrow. Or being able to raise your hand and say, look, I'm really struggling with this. And I think regardless of whether you're a senior leader or whether you're, you know, it's your first job and this is day one, I think being able to, to navigate and, you know, through that balance is so important. And, you know, I definitely am not going to go on a, on a pitch of, you know, healthy eating and all those good things, but you find what works best for you, and if you balance, then it helps you navigate through some of those, those difficulties. And, you know, for me, it's, it's, you know, a little bit crazy. But my office at home, I kind of built like my sanctuary. So my husband doesn't like pink. My office is covered in pink, and that's just my safe space. And, you know, when I'm having a really difficult day, I look at some of, you know, I've got some funny memes on the wall, and I light a candle or I open the window, I look out. I live in the country, so I look and see the, the trees and allows me to stop and breathe and just pause. And that sometimes helps reset. So I think, you know, do whatever, whether it's exercise or meditating or running or drinking wine, whatever it is, you know, I'm, um, getting a huge fan of wine. I think it is about being able to stop and give yourself the freedom to, to feel what you're feeling in that motion. If you're still stuck there three months later, then you probably need to get some help. But, you know, people sometimes feel like if you don't get on board, you're a failure or you're not, you know, a team. Team. Team spirit or there's no team ethics. No, we're allowed to have days where we just don't want to be a grownup and don't want to get out of bed. And, um, that's okay.

Speaker A: And I think this connects into the, the, the communicating the real importance of this communicating when going through change at all different levels. Um, and speaking of sort of the um, you know, change happens and transformation happens but um, there still needs to be business continuity in, in whichever scenario you're working in most of the time. And Amelia, how do you keep so in. In your world as well? How do you keep managers on side going through change while attracting, while still trying to attract top talent as well?

Speaker C: Well, yeah, and I think um, you know, I kind, I kind of alluded to some of this really in talking about the comms piece earlier because I think, you know, quite, Quite reasonably you're not going to have all the answers and quite fairly managers will have lots of questions about why changes are happening. And m. It doesn't matter how widely distributed or how well updated your intranet is. You know, there will always be people who don't know or don't understand why you're, you're making various changes. And I think um, you know, very much to Claire's point earlier, if you are um, you know, as transparent as possible but you allow people the space to vent or have a tantrum or you know, feel heard about what changes um, you're making and you know, make them feel as though they have a space in order to you know, challenge and you know, and a place even to direct further queries, um, or resources for them to, to uncover more. You are kind of trying your best to bring them on the journey and of course it's difficult and of course you know, when you're trying to still retain talent, um, when you're going through this kind of challenge, um, it's difficult and, and people will you. Sometimes that is a risk. Um, but I think you know, in order to you know, bring people along your journey with you, quite often it is simply a case of explaining that there are business priorities and mandates to adhere to and, and we didn't do this. However, these are decisions that have been made. We are all in this together. It's happening to, to the collective and we are one team. We're all working for the same objective. And it does, it is easier said than done and a people will still find that a uh, difficulty to get on board with that. But I do think that you know, that sense of collaboration and kind of what I was talking about at ah, the beginning really in terms of the relationships are what you know, bring you on in your career. You know, when you've got those and you can leverage them and people understand where you're coming from and that this isn't something that. That a change that's being made for any other reason than, you know, purely the best interests of the business, then it is more credible.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, it's. It. It's difficult because transformation isn't personal either. You know, we're.

Speaker C: We're all.

Speaker A: We're all from a, um, from a business and organizational perspective. But, um, it can still be challenging. And I think the idea of real transparency in the way that we're. Honesty and transparency in the way we're communicating both internally and to your point on, you know, when you're attracting talent as well during a period of transformation, likewise, you know, transparent when you're. When you're going through that attraction process. Um, so what I'm going to ask you both, um, is we've had some really good conversation, and frankly, I could probably carry on talking to you both for a lot longer on this topic because it's an area that I'm really fascinated and interested in, the psychology of change with people. But if we were to give our listeners, um, sort of some key tips or top takeaways about transformation and successful transformation, um, what would that be? And Claire, if I come to you first on your top tips, sure.

Speaker B: I am tempted to say, make sure your office is pink and sparkly and glittery, and then everything will be fine. But that's not. Not quite what you were looking for. Um, so I think, you know, the first thing is get comfortable with the uncomfortable, um, and, you know, knowing that change is inevitable. And I think that the easier you can find ways to navigate through the change, the better you, your team, your organization will navigate through that. Um, my second point is find change champions within the business so that it's not just you in talent acquisition being the bearer of bad news. Find business leaders that understand what it is that you're doing and let them be your voice. Because they're often the ones that can say, well, actually they've done this and this is the success story, or this is what my experience has been. Um, and, you know, constantly keep. The third point, I think, is constantly keep yourself open to hearing feedback, communicating, because that way people get to go along the journey. You share examples, you share stories. Um, and as Amelia said, you know, transformation is not about how everybody got it perfect, because we're not hired to be perfect. We're hired to be, you know, with expertise. So keep communicating, sharing stories. Um, and, you know, see it as part of your involvement, your transformation as an individual Leader or as organization.

Speaker A: Brilliant. Thank you. And Amelia, your, your top takeaway tips.

Speaker C: Um, Claire's stolen all of mine. Um, the only thing I would add, um, I suppose is a couple of things I would say. Don't make any assumptions because even a transformation journey at the very beginning of what you expect to happen, it doesn't necessarily run like that. So within transformation, be prepared to pivot if you need to, um, ask questions because, um, you know you're going to be asked if it's crossed your mind someone will ask you that question as well to try and find the answer out. But also, I guess, don't make any assumptions because, you know, I think that could trip you up. And, you know, I guess to Claire's earlier point about getting a plan in place and trying to make sure that you're as prepared as possible as you can be for any eventuality, um, you know, you need a good roadmap and a good project team behind you to kind of help execute all of those big key decisions and changes.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think sharing, sharing the load is really important. You know, identifying the experts in the business or those individuals who are, are, um, further along in their change mindset who will be able to be your change champions is a really great tip, really important to have because it's not on individuals. It's a team effort. So great tips. Thank you, both of you, um, and thank you for the conversation. I'm going to wrap us up on our fun question that we always like to do at the end of our, um, end of our podcast podcasts. Um, and I'm going to come to you, back to you, Claire, first, um, and ask you, speaking of transformation, if you could transform into an animal or an object, what would it be and why?

Speaker B: Oh, um, so for me, when I get asked this question, it's a little bit of a toss up between. I, I love the idea of being able to fly. Um, so I don't want to be, you know, an average little bird. I'd like to be a powerful e. Eagles so you can dominate the skies. But then I also just think, you know, dolphins. Who doesn't love dolphins? I mean, water is like my happy place. It's calming. And dolphins always just seem to be super happy and people are always excited to see them. So maybe I'll go with a dolphin.

Speaker A: Okay, excellent. Thank you. Very cute indeed. I was expecting the cat to come in then, but no, it wasn't. Well, it was a careful then.

Speaker C: I'm sure you'd like to be transformed into your own Cat Claire, because I know he gets.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. If I could guarantee that, then absolutely.

Speaker A: And, Amelia, I'm going to throw a different one at you. So just to mix it up a bit, um, what would be. What. What is your. I say is making the assumption. What's your karaoke song?

Speaker C: Um, okay, so, um, I have, uh, my best friend who's also in hr. Um, would, um, probably kill me for saying this, um, but she and I have a bit of a double act. Um, and we always sing a song by Lauryn Hill, um, called that Thing. And it's got this beautiful, um, melodic verse that she takes, and then I do the rap, which is a chorus. Um, so I'm not doing it for you now. It's. Very few people have seen us do that. It's normally confined to a tiny booth somewhere, you know, privately between four walls and me and her. But that is our absolute favorite number.

Speaker A: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm basically looking at you and visualizing that rap taking place now. It's a very. It's making me happy. It's very special. Both of you, thank you so, so much for your time today. Um, that is it. That's a wrap for today's episode of the Transform Talent Podcast. Really appreciate your honesty and advice in dealing with transformation in the workplace, and I'm sure our listeners will, too. Some amazing tips and golden nuggets of advice that have come through there. Um, to learn more about the topics that we've discussed in this episode, you can check out the resources in the show notes. But for now, thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in once again. And please do make sure you're subscribed to our podcast on your preferred platform so you don't miss an episode. See you next time.

Speaker B: Bye.

Speaker C: Thanks. Bye,

Speaker B: Sam.