584. When to Start a Group Practice (and When to Wait!) w/ Whitney Owens, LPC

Speaker A: Hello everyone and welcome to the Testing Psychologist podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Jeremy Sharp, licensed psychologist, group practice owner and private practice coach. Many of y' all know that I have been using TherapyNotes as our practice EHR for over 10 years now. I've looked at others and I just keep coming back to TherapyNotes because they do it all. If you're Interested in an EHR for your practice, you can get two free months of therapy notes by going to thetestingpsychologist.com therapynotes and enter the code testing. Hey folks, I am really glad to have Novo Psych Psychometrics sponsoring the show. If you do structured assessment work, then you will likely love Novo Psych. Novo Psych brings 150 plus standardized measures into one platform. What I particularly like is the extra layer of psychometric interpretation. So it helps you understand what scores actually mean so the results are easier to communicate. If you are interested in high quality measures for personality, disability, ADHD or autism, you can try Novo Psych with a 15 day free trial via the link in the show notes, which is novopsych.com testingpsychologist that's N-O-V-O-P-S-Y-C-H.com testingpsychologist Hey everyone, welcome back to the Testing Psychologist. I've got a business episode for you today, answering a question that comes up so many times in my consulting and Facebook group and membership community and that is, should I start a group practice? So my guest today, Whitney Owens, is well suited to answer this question. Whitney knows what it's like to build something meaningful from the ground up. She's a licensed professional counselor, faith driven entrepreneur and founder of Wise Practice Consulting where she's turned her own experience running a, uh, thriving 15 clinician private pay group practice in Savannah, Georgia into a roadmap for practice owners who want to grow without sacrificing their faith, their income or their life. Whitney has, I think, a rare ability to meet practice owners exactly where they are and help them build practices that are not only profitable, but designed around the life they actually want to live. Through Wise Practice Consulting, she brings real world strategy and faith based grounding to practice owners who are done settling for burnout and ready to build something that works for their clients and their bottom line and for their calling. Whitney also has a podcast which you will hear I, uh, will be recording on her podcast I think tomorrow. So uh, you can go check that out in a couple months as well. But she's also the host of the Wise Practice Podcast and creator of the annual Wise Practice Summit, which is a gathering of faith based practice owners who believe you shouldn't have to choose between a thriving business and a life well lived. I've been to the summit a couple of times as well as a speaker and it's a really good time. And it's always in the south, which I appreciate. She picks these really nice hotels in the South, Nashville and Charlotte and so forth. And worth checking out. So you can find all those links in the show notes if you want to check out what Whitney is up to. But today, like I said, we are talking about, uh, how to start a group practice. Should I start a group practice? Mistakes people make when they go to start group practices and everything kind of under that umbrella. So I like this episode one just because Whitney is super down to earth, very grounded, very transparent and genuine, but also because actually getting into the weeds and some uh, of the nuts and bolts of starting a group practice. So you know, we talk about what it really means to increase your income in group practice, whether that's a possibility or not a possibility. We talk about the mindset that is helpful when you're starting a group practice. We talk about referral streams that need to be in place before you start a group practice and uh, many other things. I think there is a lot to take away from this episode and if you are out there thinking about hiring or growing even or scaling your practice, this is a good one for you. So let's go ahead and get to my conversation with Whitney Owens. Whitney, hey, welcome back to the podcast.

Speaker B: Oh, I'm so glad to be with you, Jeremy.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, good to see you again. It's been a little while. Um, I'm trying to think what we talked about last time and of course I can't remember, was it private pay we did?

Speaker B: Yes. Because I actually really enjoyed that interview and I remember being like, oh, that might have been one of the best ones I've given in a long time.

Speaker A: Nice. I'm glad to hear that. Glad to hear that. Hopefully we can duplicate and build on that success here today, make it even better. So today we're talking about, um, group practice, when to start a group practice, and maybe on the flip side when not to start a group practice. I think it's all part of the same discussion. Um, this is a question that pops up a lot in my audience and I think many other folks audience out there. So first question, always start with, um, you know, you could talk about a lot of things. You're very accomplished, you've done many cool things over your career, but why focus on this?

Speaker B: Well, thank you for saying that. I love having a group practice. And looking back, I was so anxious, I didn't know what I was doing, you know, and I, I think a lot of people would say they were kind of pushed into it. Just kind of how you're almost pushed into starting a private practice. Um, my caseload was overwhelming and I didn't know what to do with all the people calling. And then I just started hiring. And now that I look back on that, I'm so grateful for that decision. Not only because it allows me to eat, you know, and have mortgage paid for and my kids can go to Disney sometimes, but it's allowed me to develop a team that I genuinely love.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That's the best part about it, at least for me, is the team.

Speaker B: Mhm, mhm. You can extend your reach into your community in a community that we know all needs more mental health services. I can find people that I like, bring them onto the team, train them in a way that I feel like is good for people, and then continue to do that good work. And I just love when clients come back, you know, and they say, oh, I went to Water's Edge or here's. You know, you see on social media, Water's Edge this. And then I hear stories of people working with the therapist in my practice that I don't know anything about. You're just like, wow, that's so humbling, the work that they get to do. And you're just like, wow, I got to create that.

Speaker A: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, that's super powerful. I think a lot of group practice owners hopefully, you know, have those moments here and there. You know, you hear those stories or you read something in your Google reviews or something and it was like something happening behind the scenes. You had no idea, of course, like what all interactions your staff are having. Um, but it does hit. I mean, it hits in a really good way, but, uh, in a heavy way too. It's like, oh man, that's pretty amazing. There's a lot that goes into this, especially now. I think, you know, having this conversation now is important because you're probably in a lot of the same Facebook groups that I'm in and there's a lot of discussion from group practice owners who are trying to get out and don't love it and are burned out and really wrestling with whether this is the right choice. So I think this is a timely conversation. Yeah, yeah. So where do you start to think through I mean, how do we start to think through, you know, is group practice right for me? Where do you start with folks?

Speaker B: Mhm. Yeah. I think a big question you have to ask yourself is do you want to manage a business or not? Now when we're in private practice, there's like a, uh, you have to manage a business, you know, there's no getting out of that. But if you love the clinical work, managing a group practice may not be where you're supposed to be. Now that doesn't mean you can't love at all. But I see a lot of group practice owners who will say, oh, I'm going to go get this continuing education or I'm going to get this certification and do this and, and that's great. But then why did you start a group practice? Because the more you grow, you have to work less clinically to run your business. And if you continue to see too many clients, you will burn out, be overwhelmed and honestly, your business won't like you because it uh, it won't be fed and it won't grow. And so you've gotta know that, hey, I actually also really love investing in therapists. I really love the business side, I love marketing, I love going in the community and speaking at engagements, like all those types of things. You have to enjoy those too or grow or having a group practice is going to be so daunting. I think another thing you got to really know and uh, people are always amazed when I say this. A lot of people do it for money. I need to make more money, which, hey, we all want to make more money. You have got to get to at least five full time consistent therapists to see a significant change in your income. It's so a lot of people will hire two or three part time people and then they're frustrated because they're not making enough money. They're exhausted. I was better when I was a solo practice owner. It is not worth starting a group practice. You're making less money than you did and you are going to be if you don't get to five full time people. Not maybe not, but you won't see a significant difference to get to five full time. And you just shook your head. So you know what I'm talking about.

Speaker A: Yeah, I do. I mean my rule of thumb that I tell people is you have to essentially sex your solo income with clinicians before you start to see like the benefit, so to speak, of a group practice. But seven and five I think is pretty similar because one clinician, you know, it's like a one to one, essentially. Let me, um. Yeah, walk me through your math. Like you were pretty confident. Like you have to hire five full time people. How do you. What, what is driving that reasoning?

Speaker B: I wish I could tell you there was this perfect math equation because that would make me sound like a great consultant. But, uh, no, it's really just been from years of watching.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Years of watching practice owners. I see some that even get to five or eight therapists, but they're part time and they're. So then I see them and I'm like, yeah, because they're not seeing enough clients.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. I think that makes sense. I mean, I'm gonna do something really dangerous and try to do some math on the fly here and see if we can make this work. You know, I think about. Okay, like if you're running a pretty good group practice, you know, you should have a profit margin of, let's just call it 20% for um, having a nice round number. And if you have five clinicians with a 20% profit margin, theoretically you're like making a hundred percent of like a full time clinician income. Does that make sense? Like five times 20, 100%. And that equals like a clinician's income. So that kind of replaces your income as the, uh, practice owner. I don't know if that actually makes sense, but when I thought about it and started to talk about it, it did. Uh, I don't know, maybe that's one way to think of it.

Speaker B: Doing my math on my calculator right now, I was like, well, if I had it that because we charge $100 for our associates, $100 an hour for therapy, and if they were to, if we were to bring the 20%, which I think was a very good profit margin, and then if you were to take what they bring in, multiply that by the 20, that's $2,000 per full time person. So that would give you. 8,000. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Did I say it right? 8 to 10,000. Yeah. Just depends on what the profit margin is, I guess. But. And you can list easily off of that, right? Yeah, Well, I guess it depends on

Speaker A: where you are, but I think so. Yeah. But point being, people get into running a group practice thinking I want some. So there's two components for me. I want passive income. So one, it's never, it's not passive, first of all. And we can talk about that. But two, you don't actually really see that increase in income, like you said, until you've hired, um, I think at Least full time. Five full time folks. That totally makes sense to me.

Speaker B: Totally, totally. Um. Um, now, something that I see, I'm just gonna go here. Um.

Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah.

Speaker B: I see group practice owners, when they start out, do is doing what someone down the street does. And these people, we. We did not go to school and learn how to run a business. Hm. Right. And let me tell you, the person down the street that's running a group practice that looks successful, first of all, it actually may not be M. And second of all, they didn't learn business unless they tell you that they did or they got a lot of business consulting. And so people just start hiring. They don't really know what they're doing, and they make so many mistakes, business wise, and then they regret it later. And so, you know, a lot of times they come to me for consulting and they're five, ten therapists down the road. Oh, my gosh, they're still not making more than they did solo. They've made all these mistakes. So I always preach, like, if you're gonna start a group practice, do not just go with the whim. Like, get some consulting, meet with someone that knows what they're doing. Get some training so that you, like, can prevent those mistakes. Because having to go back and change things later, you lose employees, you've lost time, you've lost clients. Like, it's such a disaster.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. You're having to unwind a lot at that point. And it can be pretty tough. Can be really tough. What are some of those mistakes that you've seen people make when they start out?

Speaker B: Mm. The biggest one is pay M. They pay their therapist too much. They think I have to. And they have all these good intentions. Well, I'm gonna pay therapists well so that they can feel good. And that's all good and dandy, but it's not worth it if you're struggling. Like, the whole, put your mask on before someone else. Like, as a business owner, if you're not taking care of yourself, your team's gonna feel it. And you've got to be able to make enough money that you can go home and not be stressed at night. You know, I remember my second therapist when she started making more than me. I was like, what just happened here? Right.

Speaker A: I changed my mind after that.

Speaker B: Yeah. So. So people. So someone listening right now is like, well, Whitney, tell me what I pay, Right? What's the. What's the amount? So here's your rule. 1099 is not more than 60%, period. Like, and I. I'm telling you, people, push on this with me. I say go to your accountant, tell em to run the numbers. And then they come back and they're embarrassed to find out that literally they are working harder and paying their people. Like they're basically working for their people so they can make money. And when they figure that out, they're so embarrassed and I'm like, yeah. And so then they have to go change it. And that doesn't go well.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So 60%. But I actually don't like the contractor model anyway. Which we can go into that if you want. But for a W2 based practice, you do not want to give more than 45%. That is like right at your breaking point. And that needs to include everything like health insurance, retirement, all that. So what I usually tell people when they're first starting, like, yeah, you're not going to have all that yet. Pay them 40% of what comes in and then after that you can add all the benefits later. But you don't want to go to somebody and change their pay once they've started. And for my associates, the ones that are getting supervision, which is very expensive, I pay them more like 35, you know, 30 to 35. Because supervision's expensive and it's a liability and all the time and energy your team has to put into it.

Speaker A: Mhm, sure. So I'm guessing the people are listening and wondering where that 45% number came from for employees. For W2 employees, how'd you arrive at 45%? That's lower than I've heard from different folks over the years. Yeah, so yeah. How, what's, what's your rationale?

Speaker B: A couple of different ways. Uh, some of it's just running my own numbers and watching it happen. And I can tell you I have been in meetings where people will message me when I say that and say I'm so glad I did consulting with you. And you told me that because my friend down the street is paying 50%. I knew another practice owner who paid 50% and swore by it, but he also had to see 20 clients a week and had like nine therapists at his practice.

Speaker A: Hmm.

Speaker B: And I'm like, well, yeah, you have to see 20 clients a week because you've gotta bring in more income to be able to sustain the practice. So it's like you said earlier, there has to be this level of practice growth while you decrease your caseload. And if you're paying them too much, which you don't notice that too much at the beginning, but as you start growing like that's a struggle. So. So that's part of it. I've also had seen. I actually know another practice owner who paid 50% ended up having to close MHM. So I just. And I'm a conservative person. Maybe you could do 50. I don't know. I'm not even really willing to go that far because if the business suffers and closes, everyone loses their job, all the clients don't get help. I, I just talked to a practice center yesterday. She told me about the second group practice. She knows that just closed 12 plus the mhm. Like what's making that happen? Surely they're not making enough money. It's probably a big part of it.

Speaker A: I think you're right. I think you're right. Yeah. A lot of the stress and burnout and difficulty that I'm seeing with a lot of group practice owners in consulting, but also in these Facebook groups is, I mean a lot of it's driven by money and like having to work too hard, so to speak.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I think you're right on. So I'm guessing. Okay, I'm going to keep pushing on this because these are the things that, that people have questions about. So you said 45% all in. So that include, that's including like benefits, payroll taxes, you know, everything. Yeah. So that means somebody is probably actually getting paid, um, what, 38% of. Or give or 35 to 38% of like the hourly collections.

Speaker B: Yeah. So if we were going to go with easy numbers here. Sure, if, if. And I'm a private pay practice, so it makes that part a little easier. But I still work with insurance based and we like calculate kind of what that would look like. We work on that. But so if we're charging $100 a client, that means the therapist is getting paid $40. That's if they have a full caseload. If they are not having a full caseload, I actually pay them less because it's more expensive to have them and it gives them incentive to keep going harder. But uh, yeah, so they're getting 40 and then they're getting the health insurance retirement matching all that on top of that.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. So everything comes in at, uh, 45%. Yeah. So I'm guessing there are folks out there who are like, I could never hire anyone with that deal. So how have you made that work and how do you present this maybe to potential employees or current employees to

Speaker B: make it attractive asking this question? Yeah, um, because I've been thinking about this a lot recently. We have had tons of Turnover the past two years. Now I've had my group practice for, since 18, so eight years. And the last two years have been by far the most turnover. And so I've done a lot of research, done interviews with the team, put all my data into AI and like really worked on, okay, what is it that's happening here? Hardly anyone said it was money.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And I have only had one person who literally said in when they put in their notice, I'm doing this because I need to make more money.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: I, uh, think therapists have this idea that that's what it is. It's not. None of us went into this work because we wanted to make a bunch of money. We went into this work because we want to help people. We want to connect with one a lifestyle that we enjoy right now. Money is important. So interestingly enough, I had another therapist who said to me, I'd like to be paid more. And I said, okay, tell me more about that. And because I always am m open to talking about money. And she said, well, you know, when I took the job here, there was a practice down the road that was offering my uh, me $5 more dollars an hour and I could have taken that job. And that's a pretty significant amount. She was associate level therapist. I said, well, why didn't you just take that job? And she said, because I love the culture and the supervision of what you have here.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And so, so much of this is about your culture and what you're creating Now I have supervision every week. We have multiple group tracks, we have staff meetings, people can reach out to us. You know, we call attorneys on their behalf. We do everything for these therapists. And that's the culture I wanted to create. Because when I was in private practice, I was tired of being bogged down with all the phone calls trying to schedule, people not getting time off, not having health insurance. So I decided with the way I run my business, yeah, you're gonna make a little less working here. So you've gotta decide that that's the kind of culture you want. But I wanna have a lot of community here and I'm gonna invest in a really nice space and I'm gonna invest in supervision that helps you. And when you get licensed, you still get supervision here, you know, so I have to kind of share that with people. Like, we are investing in you and your career, but we're also giving you a lot of clients. You know, you're gonna get more. And like, even if you went and did private practice, it's gonna be more expensive than working here. If you were to look at the whole arc. And that's another thing I have to help people see, like you're gonna get these other benefits. And if you were to calculate all that in the package is actually this amount, it's not.

Speaker A: Right, Right. Yeah. Those are tough conversations, especially when you bring in the practice down the street. You know, you alluded to that like people are comparing. Right. And that can be tough if other practices are maybe not as stable or as financially secure, but the potential employee doesn't know that. They just see like, hey, they're paying me like 10 or 15% more. Uh, but who knows what's going on in the background. And if that practice is going to go under in six to 12 months or if the owner are completely burned out or whatever it may be like we, you know, they don't see that. So. But it sounds like you are providing like a pretty high touch, like high care environment for your employees. And that's a big part of the rationale in that, you know, quote unquote, lower pay rate.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's how I think about it. But then I also, when I like look at it, I'm like, If you see 25 clients a week.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And you're making a certain amount and you're an associate level therapist, you're not having to pay for supervision outside the practice. You know, making 50, 60,000 a year. I know that doesn't sound great, but you're still getting your hours, you know, in your education. And so to me I'm like, it's not terrible, you know, like when you get licensed, you get a significant raise once you get licensed here. Because that's a very different situation.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Okay. I uh, gotcha. I gotcha. So do you think about the, you said you think about those differently. Like licensed folks are maybe around that 45% range. And then pre licensed or associate folks are more 35, 35 to 40.

Speaker B: It depends on if they have a full caseload. If they see couples, couples pay for it. We also have a bonus pay structure. So it's been interesting. Some of the therapists don't like that because they don't like that. We're encouraging people to see a lot of clients, but in my mind I'm like, look, they're going to do it anyway, so I'd rather incentivize and give them something for the hard work they're doing. So uh, if you see more than 25 clients a week, you start making more per client, and then at the end of the quarter, you get that bonus. So we did start doing that. And I think that some of those changes made a big difference. People seem happier. But the worst thing you can ever do is go negative, you know?

Speaker A: What do you mean? Like, reduce people's pay.

Speaker B: Reduce people's pay or your practice goes negative.

Speaker A: Oh, sure, right.

Speaker B: And so if you're even close to that threshold of the red line, what are you going to do when you want to buy a building one day? What are you going to do when, uh, when something comes up or an attorney bill ends up being fifteen hundred dollars? Well, your therapists don't know that. You know that.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, let's just play this out to kind, uh, of fill in the gaps here. So people m, again, might be saying, oh, my gosh, 45%. Like, that's really low. Where is the rest of the money going? And so for me, the way I think about it is, like, just ballpark, okay, 20% for overhead, 20% for profit, which, you know, taxes come out of that, and then 10% for savings. I don't know. That's like a ballpark, you know, of where the rest of the revenue goes. I don't know.

Speaker B: What.

Speaker A: How would you answer?

Speaker B: Because. Because we did this with our team. So we had our, like you will meeting in February, and we created a pie graph to show them where all the money goes. Like, hey, yeah, it was really interesting, um, because they don't think about the admin team. Oh, they do a lot for you. And we have to pay them or me. I run the practice, I run the marketing. Like, if I wasn't doing that, you wouldn't even have clients. So once we kind of showed them that. And I think it's so important that you talk about money. So, like, we had one team member. And this part's kind of sad, but this is how I have to do it. When you take time off, it's an admin pay. It's not the clinical rate pay, but to me, it's significantly less. But to me, time off and getting paid is better than not getting paid. And when I was a therapist in private practice, I didn't get paid anything when I took time off. But one of the gals was like, wait, what just happened? I didn't know I was getting this, even though it's in the policy. But she just wasn't prepared. And we had to explain to her, like, there's no income coming in when you take time off. And she was like, well, like another therapist who didn't, uh, understand why people couldn't just take off when they wanted to. And I said, well, one time too many of you took off and then I didn't get paid that month. And he was like, oh my gosh, really? And I was like, yeah, I'm the owner. And that's what happens when we go negative, you know, and that doesn't happen very often, but that's when I learned that, hey, only two people at a time can take off the same week, because that's what happens. And so I think talking to them about those challenges, I think a lot of people are scared of that as group owners, but it actually allows them to kind of buy in more and care more and understand more.

Speaker A: M. Yeah, I like that. Uh, I know there's a lot of debate about how much, how transparent to be with our folks about, about money. And I like leaning in this direction, being more transparent. I think it goes a long way. Yeah. So I'm going to take two steps back in our conversation here and go back to the point that you made about not liking the contractor model. A lot of people want to do contractors. That's the way people want to start. You know, I'm just going to get a couple contractors and see how this goes. What's, uh, what's your thinking around the contractor model?

Speaker B: Yeah, hey, I did that too. And guess what? Both of them were gone in eight months. Okay.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah. And then I switched to W2. So for me, a big part was just culture. Like in essence, you're bringing in everyone that has their own business into one space. Trying to pretend like you are one business when you're really not.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Is higher turnover. One practice owner that switched the same time I did, she had 12 to 14 therapists and just couldn't get past that constantly when she transitioned. Now she's at 60 therapists. So yeah, people stay. And I wanted a culture that was committed to one another, that we weren't just looking out for our own best interests. We're interest of one another also. I know it sounds crazy, but you can pay better with W2 because you can include so much more. And the business is more profitable when you're a W2 practice, which means everyone benefits, not just the owner. Mhm. I don't really understand that math, so you'd have to ask an accountant. But I have seen it over and over again, more profit with W2 based practices. As long as you're not paying the people too much.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. And are you, as far as compensation structure, are you doing a flat hourly rate? Are you doing a percentage of income? Are you doing a salary?

Speaker B: Yeah, a flat rate. If you do a percentage, they're going to just think about that.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: You know, percent I'm not getting even though they could do the math and figure it out. And I do have some salaried people, but those are all the like leadership team and the admin team. I am looking at starting salaries for people who are your four years if you've consistently kept your caseload. And some of them been just kind of saying like, it would be really nice to make the same thing every time. Like the fluctuation's challenging, especially summers or we or you know, or those kinds of things. So I am looking at that for people who've been here long enough.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, love that. You know, I've talked on the podcast before about how we moved to salaries maybe, I don't know, four or five years ago. There's some ups and downs. You know, it's a little more complicated in terms of like forecasting and making sure that you've got coverage and you know, the revenues coming in and all of that. But it um, it's been a good move, at least for us. You know, it's a lot more predictable for me and for the employees and um, I think makes us more competitive as well. We're primarily, you know, trying to hire psychologists and testing folks in particular. You know, we're kind of competing I think with like hospital or universities and you know, they're presenting it like a salary most of the time. It's not like, hey, here's this hourly rate that, you know, we're negotiating and certainly not a percentage.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think you bring up kind of a good point in like you're going to get a different kind of employee with a 1099 and with a W2.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: 1099 tends to work at other places part time. You know, a lot of, a lot of women with kids at home, you know, they only want to see five clients, 10 clients a week. And so you really don't make much m money off of that. And so A W2 people are not going other places. They're committed to your culture and they want to see a lot of clients.

Speaker A: Mhm. Yep, I think that's true. And I don't know, for better, for worse, uh, you uh, could think of it or I think of it like sort uh, of level of control, you know, from the owner standpoint, you Know, that can be a good thing if you wield it correctly, you know, you can control. Like, here's what our schedules look like, here's what our branding looks like, here's what your reports look like. You know, here's what our culture looks like. There's. There's a lot that, um. There's a lot of good that can come from that, I think. So I'm totally on board with the W2.

Speaker B: Yeah. And we do have to explain all that at hiring. Like, the more we've grown, the more policies, procedures, structure. Uh, and some therapists don't like that. They expected less of that. And so we say, hey, if you don't like policies, procedures, structure, or someone to give you clients, like, this is not the place for you. So that has really helped us get that buy in early on. Instead of people being frustrated with the structure, they want the structure.

Speaker A: Sure, sure. That's fair. So let's take one more big step back and go to. I think one of my original questions, which is, how do folks know that they are ready to start a group practice? Um, you know, what, what other factors maybe need to be in place? What. What are we looking for?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think having a successful solo practice first.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: It's amazing how many people are like, I'm starting a group and hiring, and they've never had a practice before.

Speaker A: Well, yeah, I see that. And I see. I think you alluded to this way back that, you know, folks who are financially stressed in solo practice and then say, I'm going to start a group to make more money. And I'm like, you know, you're like building a house on quicksand here. Uh, I don't think that's going to go very well.

Speaker B: That's a good way to say it. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I, uh, also think you gotta have a steady referral stream.

Speaker A: Okay, and how would you define a steady referral stream? Let's take a break to hear from a featured partner. Y' all know that I love TherapyNotes, but I am not the only one. They have a, uh, 4.9 out of 5 star rating on trustpilot.com and Google, which makes them the number one rated electronic health record system available for mental health folks today. They make billing, scheduling, note taking, and telehealth all incredibly easy. They also offer custom forms that you can send through the portal for all the prescribers out there. TherapyNotes is proudly offering E Prescribe as well. And maybe the most important thing for me is that they have live telephone support seven days a week so you can actually talk to a real person in a timely manner. If you're trying to switch from another ehr, the transition is incredibly easy. They'll import your demographic data free of charge so you can get going right away. So if you're curious or you want to switch or you need a new, uh, EHR, try TherapyNotes for two months absolutely free. You can go to thetestingpsychologist.com therapynotes and enter the code Testing again totally free, no strings attached. Check it out and see why everyone is switching to therapy Notes. Hey everyone. I am really excited that Novopsych Psychometrics is sponsoring the show. Nova Psych is a platform for psychologists who care deeply about assessment and testing and want their self report measures to be the very best. Novo Psych has an extensive library of 150 standardized instruments with strong coverage across the presentations many of us assess every day, like disability, functional Impact, autism, ADHD and a wide range of symptom measures. You can also use it for broad personality assessments like the Big five, or go deeper when you're looking to understand personality pathology. What makes Nova Psych different isn't just the range of scales, it is the quality of the experience. So I really appreciate the depth of psychometric info that it provides and the clear graphs and visualizations that make results easier to interpret and communicate. If you want to try Nova Psych Psychometrics, you can access a 15 day free trial via the link in the show Notes, which is free. Novopsych.com testingpsychologist that's N-O-V-O-P-S-Y-C-H.com testingpsychologist

Speaker B: that at least 75% of your caseload is full.

Speaker A: Okay, great.

Speaker B: You're, you know, I mean, you're seeing at least 15, 20 clients a week, you know, not you're not seeing like five a week. But yeah, I think a lot of people make the mistake they want to see their caseload completely full before they hire and do that. You don't have time to hire, uh, and you gotta make that investment. So I encourage people to start looking for. If you know, you want to start a group practice, start doing it when you're about 75, 80% full. And I say the same thing. Once you are a group practice, you want to hire when everyone is at that point, don't wait until everyone's full or your certain specialty EMDR therapist is full because then you're running around and you know, not able to schedule people. And so that's A good kind of rule of thumb. Um, I definitely think those are some of them. I think having a good financial sense, you have to be okay with money. You've worked on your money stuff because money fears will really mess with you and being able to make investments. And I would say the best practice owners are ones that are willing to spend money.

Speaker A: Okay, yeah, say more about that. Where. Where do they spend money? And what's that look like?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, uh, some of the best ways to spend money is in business consulting, hands down, because these are people that have been doing it forever and can save you from a lot of financial mistakes. I'm thinking about one girl. You know, stories come to you as you're talking. This one girl, I was doing consulting with her, and I said something to her that was like, a thousand dollars save. And she was like, oh, my gosh. And I said, yeah, that just paid for your consulting, you know, like. Like you don't know what you don't know. And so I think having a. So that's either maybe you have a consultant or you're in a mastermind group or some kind of membership community where you're getting that information. Sure. Social media, Facebook, you might learn something. But honestly, you're. You don't know if those people know what they're talking about. So, I mean, that's a good point.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's true.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I'd say that. I would say investing in your SEO website, Google Ads, all that, that's a good investment. As long as you're tracking it and making sure it's working.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Investing in your admin team. And a lot of people think, I don't wanna hire an assistant because I don't have the money, but they don't pay attention to how they're gonna make money by having somebody answer the phones and schedule clients and all that kind of stuff. So that's a big part of my success, is making investments like those. And a lot of people just they wanna be successful without having to make investments. And I'm just like, you're not ever gonna get there.

Speaker A: Right. Would you go so far as to say it is a prerequisite to starting a group practice, that you have an admin team of some sort, or an admin person, at least go that far.

Speaker B: But it's a great idea. I didn't. That's why I'm laughing. I made that mistake.

Speaker A: I don't know if I did either.

Speaker B: I had a group for seven months before I hired my first admin, and I was like, where. Where have I been? It was so stressful, like, taking calls for two other therapists in my practice.

Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah, I don't think I did either. So this is a, um, great example of, you know, learn from my mistakes and do it different. Yeah, it is tough. It's a chicken or egg question, I think, but, you know, at least, like, having their head in that. Headed in that direction. Like, hey, I'm going to need admin support and do it sooner than later.

Speaker B: A hundred percent.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you. Let's see what other aspects, you know, might indicate that someone is ready to start, uh, a group practice and then a good space for that.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think a lot of people are thinking about it and actually not moving on it. So if you've been thinking about it for a while, you're probably more ready than you realize. Okay. I had another gal I spoke to, and. And I was like, hey, um, you know, what do you. What is it that you want to work on? She's like, well, I want to start a group practice, but I don't want to do that for at least six months. And I said, okay, tell me why. She said, well, I want to grow my caseload more. I need to learn more about business. I need to be there. And I said, okay, well, tell me about your caseload. She already had a consistent caseload that was coming in. She already had space. And I was like, uh, if you wait six more months, you're going to lose six months of time. You already have all the components right now. It was just like her own fear. And we, uh, started working together, and she had her group practice by the end of the six months, which was really exciting. Um, yeah, so. So I think people are more set up sometimes than they realize. And if they've been thinking about it a while, they should do it. But they need to do it for the right reasons, of course, not just the financial reasons that we've already talked about.

Speaker A: Right, right. Yeah. And going into it, eyes wide open, I think helps. Helps a lot. You know, like, we've been talking about, hey, this is going to be a shift in your role and your time and your finances. Certainly.

Speaker B: Another big mistake that I see is investing in space too early.

Speaker A: I was going to ask about this. Yes.

Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. So people will say, I can't start a group practice to have more offices. M. No, you just need yours. Like, you're not in there 24 7. Someone else can come in and use that space when you're not in it. And so people are amazed by that. When I had my group, I had six therapists in two offices. It was madness.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I was waiting on more space. It wasn't opening up, and everybody was so frustrated. I was like, here we go, you know, but, yeah, you don't need more space. Most people spend too much on space. A good rule of thumb is 6 to 8% of your monthly revenue on space. Sometimes I go up to 10, but really don't want to go past that. And too many people think, well, I'll grow into it, I'll hire for it. But can't guarantee that it's such a good point.

Speaker A: I'm, um, with you on this as well. Like, I'm pretty conservative about office space, and that was one of the biggest, I guess you'd say, mistakes. I mean, it was certainly one of the most stressful times financially in our practice is when I took a huge leap and basically doubled our space and, you know, in a new lease and then had a lot of pressure and just didn't, you know, hire quickly enough for it to, you know, to pay for itself before it got stressful. So just to, you know, reinforce that point, like, I think you can. You can stretch off a space a long way, like further than you think.

Speaker B: That's right. You could put at least two people in each space.

Speaker A: Sure, sure. And that, um. I love numbers. I love that you're talking about numbers. So, you know, folks, keep that 6 to 8% in mind. That's. That's a good rule of thumb.

Speaker B: Well, that's from Julie at Green Oaks. Ah, she knows.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was gonna ask about that as well. You seem to be pretty, you know, financially literate, which is we need to be right as group practice owners. But we didn't learn this in school. I'm guessing you didn't learn this in grad school. So, I mean, what have you done over the years and what do you encourage people to do to, like, get their heads wrapped around the numbers a little bit?

Speaker B: Yeah, look at em. And in my consulting work, so many people, I have to, like, literally get in the call with them and have them pull up their P and L and like, talk through it because they're so anxious about money, they don't even look at it. And you can't make improvements without it. I love profit first. You know, a lot of people know what that is at this point. Um, if you don't, it's the concept of we put away profit before we spend on anything else. Because most People look at their checkbook and they're like, I can spend money, money's there. But then they're not balancing and thinking about what's coming and they're not putting profit aside to for themselves or for me. Sometimes I use that for buying buildings. So you know, you got to be able to have some way to manage your money. And a lot of what Profit first does, and it's a little Dave Ramsey ish, you know, the whole envelope system, which you can think what about that? But just concept, it's like putting people putting money in a bucket and it stays in that bucket, that envelope, and it doesn't get touched. So then every time we do two, like for us we do it when we run payroll. And so then we put money in OPEX money in this, money in this. And so it helps us see the percentage going into each one. And when I started doing that, that's actually when I realized that I had more money than I realized and I could actually invest more in my team. And that's when I started doing more benefits. Mhm. Retirement matching, stuff like that. When I started seeing that I actually had more money than I realized. But Profit first has been game changer for me in my business.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think that's important to highlight that there can be stressful times with money certainly and times when we don't have enough. But getting a good handle on your numbers can also be a really nice surprise. Like, hey, I actually do have money, like more than I thought. And now you have a good handle on how much. That is what you can do with that. That's a fun choice, right? Yeah. Did you, let's see. Would you recommend having an accountant or a bookkeeper if you are starting a group practice? Has that been helpful?

Speaker B: Yeah. You should probably have it as a solo practice too.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: I call people, I call it the dream team. When you start a group practice and when people first start out, we uh, kind of have like a six month training that we do with them. And at the very beginning it's kind of those basics. Do you have an LLC? Do you have QuickBooks? Do you have a separate bank account? You know, but then it's do you have your dream team? That's your accountant, that is your consultant and that is your attorney.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Because you've got to have a relationship with an attorney for hiring. So employee law, they're going to do your contracts, paperwork, that kind of thing. But stuff happens.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you're going to be like somebody's phone number I'm like knocking all the way. I haven't had to call them in a little bit. But yeah, when stuff happens, I need someone right then. And some people will be like, oh, I'll call my liability. Well, your liability attorney does that, doesn't do employee stuff. And when stuff happens, you need somebody.

Speaker A: Yeah, yep. I think that's super important. People do ask about that a lot, do I need an attorney? And I think most of the time they're talking about a liability attorney or somebody to like review paperwork or something. And in those cases I'm usually like no. Uh, I mean probably not, you know, except in some exceptions. But, but the hr, slash employment attorney, super important. That's been some uh, of the best money I've ever spent over the years because those are the biggest problems. If it really becomes a problem, those are big problems. And it's good to have somebody to help you through it.

Speaker B: Mhm. A hundred percent.

Speaker A: Yeah. That's great. What are some of the other, let's see, we can get super concrete. Like do you think about this in terms of steps? Like if I want to start a group practice, like say I've, you know, been listening, check these boxes, got the referral stream. I'm ready to be a business owner, I'm ready to manage people, I think, you know, et cetera. Where do people go from there?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. I love having this step by step process.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: I think of it as three phases. One is kind of the foundation setup phase. So you know, saying we do it in a six month timeframe. So two months for each one. So the first part is, is my practice set up to be a group practice. Uh, everyone says to me I don't need that part, I got it. And then when I start telling em, they're like, so that's the llc. And actually a lot of people, their name, it's bad. It's either a bad name or it's their name. And I'm like kind of intense about that because how is a group going to feel when it's your name? Um, so it's changing your culture, your model, your, your copy for group. So that could be the branding of your practice to be for a group practice, the name of your practice. And then your website copy will need to change to we instead of I and have, you know, include other specialties. You got to add all those. So you start kind of like working on some of these concepts. Um, if you don't have a phone line yet, some people use their personal phone as A solo owner. I, I certainly did. So I had to get a phone number that, you know, we could use for other people and a phone line that worked and emails for everybody. Making sure your EHR allows you to add people, checking prices on that. So it's looking at every part of your practice and making sure it's in line to add people. And then also those foundations we already talked about, getting the attorney, getting the cpa, that kind of of stuff. So that's the foundations and then the next part is actually adding people. So now you've done that. You figured out like kind of your values, your mission, what you're doing now you got to put that into job ads. Figuring out pay structure, figuring out your culture, what you're offering people, um, what kind of space they're going to use. So it's how do I hire and bring them on, how do I do interviews? A big thing we've just changed recently is we do values based interviews instead of clinically based interviews. And I used to do more clinically based, but I just found that like, usually it's a values thing, we're not aligned. And that's the problem. I could teach you how to be a good therapist. I can't teach you how to do values. I can't teach you to be humble, you know, or have integrity. So. So we focus on those things.

Speaker A: Yeah. And then can I ask you, when you say you turn, you've turned it into a values based interview, what does that actually look like, question wise, you know, versus a clinical interview?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. So when they come for their interview, we have like questions related to the five values that we have and they're all situational and we ask them what they would do in certain situations that would show if you're a humble person or if you're a person of integrity, if you're growth minded. Um, and, and it's been interesting to have the exact same questions over and over again and hear the ways different people respond to them.

Speaker A: Sure, sure. I love that. Yeah, yeah, I could say a lot about values. We stick, um, with our values pretty closely as well. And I love that idea of weaving them into hiring. Yeah, yeah, it's great.

Speaker B: But the last phase after you kind of hired an onboard is really going back and looking at is this working? Um, so those last two months of, hey, is the marketing that you're doing, you know, how do I market and is it working and is my money actually working? So you've had this person working for you for two months need to make sure you're actually making money off of that. Are they having retention issues? Are they keeping their clients? How do you, um, have a staff meeting? How do you meet one on one with them? What do you say to them? Um, so it's more of that like setup. Now that they're with you, is it working? How do I market and how do I continue on?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I love a good process and a good, you know, a good three step model. So I appreciate you articulating that just to put some structure to it. I think, you know, folks get overwhelmed really easily with what to do and when to do it.

Speaker B: Totally well. I also, um, love hiring in twos.

Speaker A: Ooh, M. Say more about that.

Speaker B: Another big rule that I give. Yeah. So people, when you hire one person, you're spending more time, money, energy, training. If you hire in twos, they're spending time together so they form a camaraderie. In fact, two of the girls that I hired in August of 2019 are still with me together. And so when their work versary comes around, they like text about that. It's so cute. But I think having a cohort brings more community. And so I've always said it and look, not everyone's going to stick. There's such turnover in this field. And so you'll be glad you hired two because one may not make it. So the goal of kind of the six month program that we do to help people start a group practice, hopefully by the end of the six months you've had two people hired and an assistant. It's kind of a goal.

Speaker A: Yeah, I like that. I like that. I think there is research out there saying that, um, you know, having like a quote unquote best friend at work is one of the biggest predictors of staying. And that's like a great, just a big step right off the bat toward that. You know, like having two people come in together and they kind of bond and share work anniversaries. That's really cool. Yeah. So I know we could talk forever and do many episodes just on hiring, but talk to me briefly about where you're finding good candidates these days.

Speaker B: Good question. I might have to think about that for just a second. I have one kind of funny story. I'm laughing because I'm thinking about. So we actually are about to bring on five people. They're all coming at different times. I know laugh kind of funny. But this is the first time I've overhiered and I say that because I have now realized if you look at statistics. I don't think we've talked about this yet. I think about it a lot, though. If you look at the research, private practice turnover is at least 30%, which. Per year. Yep. 50% normal turnover is 10% for a regular business. So you should expect 30% of your people to leave. That brought me a lot of comfort because that's about the track I'm on.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: I was like, okay, I'm not doing as bad as I thought. So then I thought, okay, well, I should hire knowing that's gonna happen. Right. Hm. Because the worst thing that could happen, and you just. Actually, you alluded to this earlier, is not hiring fast enough. Right. So even last year, I think we lost eight therapists on a team of 17. My gosh, it was brutal. Now, you would think that we would have tanked or we would have gone negative, but we kept up with our hiring. And I was emotional. I'm like. And it was a really awful. Actually, some really toxic stuff happened. It was the most toxic year I'd team members. And my COO was like, we're moving on, we're moving on. We're hiring. When I kept being like, I don't want to hire this. And now I look back and I'm like, that was the best thing that. And we improved our, uh, churn ratio. We brought that up a good bit. And so that made a difference in making more money. But I was like, whew. Like, we could have. We could have been sinkers, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a huge hit. I mean, half your staff, basically.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, it's like toxic. People spread rumors. All the things happen.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Um, so we had to like, nip that in the butt. And now we've made some turns and, you know, we're focusing more on our values. And it's been. It's been good in the long run. But talking about the hirings, I've learned you've got to over hire. So we. We have five people coming. We hired one two weeks ago. We're recording this in May. We are June. We hired one two to three weeks ago, another coming next week, two coming in July, and another is coming in September. Several of these just email us. As you grow and you get a reputation, people just reach out, which is great. We hold on to every resume. There's like just a folder because you never know when someone's going to quit. So let's just keep all the resumes. But these two girls that are coming now are from Mississippi. And so of the Five. Three of the five are. Wait, no. Four of the five are moving here for like. No, actually, sorry. Three of the five are moving here for the actual job itself, which I've never hired for people moving here. And then one of them was going to be moving here anyway, so technically, four of them are moving here, which is crazy to me, but two of them went to the same grad school and they were just looking for cities they'd want to live in. Okay. And Savannah was on their list. And then one of them applied and the other one applied. And then one of them went to class and said, hey, I, uh, I got an interview at this place in Savannah. And the other one was like, what place? And she said, water's Edge Counseling. The girl was like, I sent my resume there too. Isn't that funny? And then they both came here together for their interview, and we're hiring them together.

Speaker A: That's wild.

Speaker B: Great therapists. One does kids, one has emdr. But I think over hiring is really important. We do get a lot of good candidates from Indeed.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So, I mean, you know, you gotta pay attention to that. And sometimes I have to put money on it. Sometimes I don't have to put money on it. We've gotten a few candidates from LinkedIn, but I really don't get as good a situation with LinkedIn as I do and, you know, word of mouth, so.

Speaker A: Right, right. That makes sense. That makes sense. We've had pretty good success with Indeed. Um, haven't really tried the others. Word of mouth is great, but, um, that's pretty serious to have folks move from out of state.

Speaker B: Yeah, it'll be interesting. It'll be interesting. Interns are good too. So we love having interns. It's kind of like a glorified job interview. And then if they do really well, we keep them. Um, so that's another way to hire.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. And are you distinguishing interns from pre licensed or associate therapists?

Speaker B: Yes, interns or in school.

Speaker A: Gotcha. Great. Great. Yep. Yeah, I'm with you. I've talked about that a lot. Like, um, you know, our interns and postdocs have been a big part of our hiring pipeline over the years. The years. Which is great. You know, like you said, extended interview on both sides.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: They get to check us out, we get to check them out. Yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic. Let's see, what else feels important here? We've covered a lot of ground in a short period of time. Um, are there other things that we haven't touched on that you like, to emphasize with folks or talk about with folks as they're considering starting a group practice.

Speaker B: Gosh, I feel like we've covered a lot of the stuff at the beginning. You know, a lot of the work I do with people is really just about mindset and figuring out, like, don't live in fear. You gotta take risks, have fun in the process. Because a lot of times we're holding our breath and then we don't enjoy it. And I am a huge fan of eos.

Speaker A: Me too. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about your experience.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So interesting. So when I was a smaller group practice, when EOS was the fad, what was that, in like, 2022 or something?

Speaker A: That sounds right. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh-huh. I remember sitting on a beach. Of course. Look at me reading a workbook on the beach. Um, you would tell me, no, Whitney, I'm doing that. And I'm like, this book is stupid. That's what I thought. Dumb book. Another process and procedure that someone thinks they know that's going to save my business. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I threw it aside. And then last. Last year, I went to Chicago with our dear friend Uriah. And Uriah looks at me and he goes, you just need an integrator. I said, what the Is that an integrator? He said, I want you to read this book, Rocket Fuel, and it's going to help you understand what I'm talking about. So I got Rocket Fuel. And it blew my mind, right? I was like, I am such a visionary, mom. I need balance with the integrator. And really, we're talking about a CEO and a coo, right? I mean, that's, in essence what it is. It's just a different way to say it, that kind of. I love the visionary integrator ideas. And then I was like, okay, I'm reading Traction again. So I picked that book up and it made so much sense. And I was like, this is it. And so really, Traction is the entrepreneur Entrepreneur operating system. And it's for larger businesses. I think the reason I didn't like it was because I didn't understand how it would help me when I was small. And so I actually, I'm a rule follower. So I hired a fractional integrator who understands EOs.

Speaker A: Okay, nice.

Speaker B: And I really was trying to get my, uh, consulting business more organized because that felt disorganized. And Water's Edge, I thought was fun. But then once I started meeting with somebody, I was like, woo, I need this in Water's Edge. And, boy, I Mean, it really, it was hard to start implementing, you know. You know, but once we did and I got people in the seats and stuff, it's been excellent. You know, the L10 meetings and the traction that we get, I couldn't be more grateful. I do do it at Water's Edge, but. So it's been really interesting to see trying the same process with two businesses that make very different income levels. Mhm. Very different staff. Much harder at wise practice, but still, still helpful, of course. So.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Mhm. Yeah. So you like?

Speaker A: I did like it. Yeah. We kind of went all in, you know, like, we hired the implementer and everything. We did, like the two years of coaching with the implementer. This was back when we were larger, you know, And I think at that time it really helped just organize things and give us some structure. And I still have carried one, you know, the values. So eos, I think is heavy, you know, values driven. And, you know, like we talked about a little bit, um, the Elden Lake meeting structure has been fantastic. And rocks, I love the idea of rocks. And, um, you know what, we're focused on every quarter to move our practice forward. So, yeah, it's still a big part of what we do.

Speaker B: Well, that's great. Yeah. And actually my mastermind group, which is group owners, they were having a really. They were just getting so overwhelmed and they weren't really moving forward. So I was like, I want all, ah, y' all to make rocks, you know, so they each made a rock and explained what one was and then they all got their rocks done in the group. So it like, really helped them get that momentum and hit milestones. And you start hitting a milestone, you feel good about yourself.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I could talk about EOS forever, you know, Really, I really enjoy it.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: This has been good, Whitney. I appreciate it. Um, I love talking to you about this stuff. I mean, it's clear, you know, you've had some ups and downs. I think, like, we all have. And just being able to turn that into material that, um, is helpful to other people is such a gift. So I really appreciate you being here and sharing all of this with us.

Speaker B: Thank you. Pleasure.

Speaker A: If folks want to reach out to you, find you, like, do your stuff, what's the best way to do that?

Speaker B: Sure. Wonderful. Well, thanks for asking. Yeah, so I tend to do a lot of things, so I have Water's Edge Counseling, which is the practice that's here in Savannah. Um, we have two locations, 15 or so therapists, depending on the day. Right. Private pay. And then I also have lost Practice Consulting, which is a consulting firm to help specifically faith based practice owners start growing scale their private practice. So we're seeing people anywhere from I'm just starting out of practice to all the way to, you know, seven figure practices. Uh, we have a membership community. So it's like an online $89 a month. You can get all the resources, teachings, I'm in there teaching stuff like what we're talking about right now. I have a podcast which you're going to be on Wise Practice and I also host a in person conference which you've been to a few times called the Wise Practice Summit. And it's this year. It's going to be in October. We always do in October, but it'll be in Nashville. So I'm excited to go to Nashville.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, I know. I'm so bummed I can't make it. We were talking before we started to record. Yeah, I'll put a shout out for that. You know, for conference atmosphere. It's really cool. And you know, even for testing folks, there's a good bit of business content. It's not just like clinical, you know, like therapy kind of stuff. So yeah, if you want to go to Nashville and have a good time with good people.

Speaker B: Thank you. Mhm. Thank you.

Speaker A: Well, it's good to see you as always. Thanks for being here 100%.

Speaker B: Thank you, Jeremy.

Speaker A: All right, y'. All, thank you so much for tuning into this episode. Always grateful to have you here. I hope that you take away some information that you can implement in your practice and in your life. Any resources that we mentioned during the episode will be listed in the show Notes, so make sure to check those out if you like what you hear on the podcast. I would be so grateful if you left a review on itunes or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. The information contained in this podcast and on the Testing Psychologist website are intended for informational and educational purposes only. Nothing in this podcast or on the website is intended to be a substitute for professional psychological, psychiatric or medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Please note that no doctor patient relationship is formed here. And similarly, no supervisory or consultative relationship is formed between the host or guests of this podcast and listeners of this podcast. If you need the qualified advice of any mental health, uh, practitioner or medical provider, please seek one in your area. M. Similarly, if you need supervision on clinical matters, please find a supervisor with an expertise that fits your needs.