Organic as a Movement

Kate: Welcome, everyone. My name is Kate and you are listening to the Taproot Project. We share stories of changemakers in Midwestern agriculture. And in this episode, we are going to unpack the meaning of organic. What does a USDA certified organic label actually mean for us as consumers and as farmers? And how did it come to be. Thanks for being here. Organic practices emphasize using natural inputs and processes that support ecosystem health. And this has been the norm for agriculture throughout human history. But in this episode, when we talk about organic, we are specifically referring to food that meets the USDA organic standards. And when we talk about organic as a movement, we mean the effort to unify food producers, regulators and consumers and an understanding of what sustainable agricultural practices are. The push for a national organic standard is one of the largest farmer led efforts to affect change at the federal level. And the movement is ongoing. I spoke to two people who have been in the weeds, literally, of organic production for decades. First, I'll introduce Mac Stone. He's a farmer based in Kentucky, recently retired from Kentucky State University. He now mentors organic farmers while holding down the livestock operations on his family's 400 acre farm.

Mac Stone: The farm's about 400 acres. John does about 35 or 40 acres of vegetables. Um, he's got 60 or 70 Angus Wagyu cross cows, few pigs. I do sheep, turkeys, both broad breasted and heritage eggs and broilers.

Kate: When did organic enter the picture for your farm?

Mac Stone: When my oldest daughter was three, I, uh, told her not to be eating any green beans out of the garden because I put poison on to kill the bugs. She looked at me and said, really, dad? You put poison on our food? And looked at me with these big brown eyes and I didn't have a good answer for her. And then as that year or the next year, my boss, we were raising tomatoes and he asked why I wasn't taking any of these extras home. And I said, well, I have some in, uh, my garden that haven't been sprayed. And he looked at me with even bigger brown eyes and said, really? So that was my start into organics.

Kate: I also spoke with Harriet Behar, a farmer and organic inspector based in Wisconsin. Early in her career, she helped start Organic Valley, which is now the largest farmer owned organic collective in North America.

Harriet Behar: I remember one farm I went to as an inspector, and I looked at the woman and I said, when I die, I want to come back as one of your cows. She got a little freaked out.

Kate: I spoke to Mac and Harriet separately, but you'll hear their voices alongside each other. In this episode M Interest in certified organic farming grew among both consumers and farmers in the second half of the 1900s. But up until 1990, organic certification happened within state or regional systems. A national organic standard did not exist until the Organic Foods Production act of 1990. I asked Mac and Harriet to describe how we came to have a national organic standard.

Harriet Behar: So in the late, well, the mid-1980s or so, there were, um, private organic certification agencies and they all had slightly different certification requirements, different set of standards

Mac Stone: and different fee schedules and different inspection schedules. And so, uh, but they, what we were doing in Kentucky probably wasn't up to snuff with what the industry standard was in California, so that it impeded interstate, uh, commerce of organics.

Harriet Behar: And so there was a lot of,

Mac Stone: um, head butting and it undermined people's uh, trust in the label of, well, no, my friend over here is using this.

Harriet Behar: And in 1989, I remember this quite clearly, there was someone who made an organic ice cream. And of course there was no federal law and the state of Wisconsin was considering a state law, but then they knew the feds were working on, um, on it. So they kind of said, well, it would supersede our law anyway. So they kind of backed down. But we were like pushing them to have a law because this person was selling organic ice cream. And the only thing in the, in the ice cream that was certified organic was the milk, not the fruit, not the sugar, not the cream. They were buying in conventional cream.

Mac Stone: Um, so by adopting, which took the, um, the legislature said, we're going to do this in 1990. Then in the year 2000, in that 10 year period, they developed the framework of the standards and approved it. Then it took another two years to get all the players lined up and the certification agencies and refine the regulations to where. Then there was the same set of standards for me in Kentucky as somebody in California or Washington state or anywhere. Because there was like the Alar scare on the apples. Not the scare, the Alar thing. When ddt, they figured that DDT was harming, uh, wild birds, the thin eggshell thing, um, that kind of solidified this need for this movement because there's enough people, um, that were asking for it.

Kate: The two chemicals Mac just mentioned, Alar and ddt, helped transform public awareness of chemical use in agriculture. DDT was a pesticide used in World War II and then incorporated into agriculture and public health interventions at home. Rachel Carson's Silent Spring famously outlined the ecological impacts of ddt, especially on bird populations. And Alar is a Growth regulator sprayed on apples and known to be carcinogenic to humans. After a 1989 expose on 60 Minutes that detailed the effects of the chemical on children, there was a national apple boycott, leading apple sales to fall by over 60% that spring. Today, the public generally understands that anything labeled organic is not treated with harmful chemicals. Maybe because of the collective alarm over DDT and Alar, but the organic label actually guarantees a lot more than no chemicals. Can you say a little bit more for a person who, um, maybe knows that they're supposed to, you know, that organic's good for them and that they should shop organic, but they don't really maybe know what that label means? Can you outline what an organic, certified organic label actually means for, um, a consumer?

Mac Stone: Right. So when you see that logo on a package at the grocery store or on a piece of fruit, um, it has been vetted to the nth degree each year. We submit a packet of information to our certifier, who for us is the Kentucky Department of Agriculture, who is accredited to administer the National Organic Program. So they have to do their due diligence to do a good job of certifying their farmer. We submit this packet of documents to tell them how we're going to grow all these things without pesticides, without herbicides, where we're going to source our seeds and everything about it. Uh, the feed, all the inputs, um, that meet the organic standards. They send out an inspector, uh, once a year, and the inspector comes and they rake through all the receipts and documents and sales and tracking of this, that and the other. For example, um, I sell the organic eggs. I have a certificate that the pullet, the young chicken that I bought came from a certified organic farm. He'd already been inspected and everything. The feed that I buy comes from a certified organic feed mill. They've already been inspected and vetted as organic. Um, but that's not good enough. They want to track the number of chickens, matches the amount of feed because they can only eat so much feed in a day. And the number of eggs has to match. And if that doesn't line up, then they say you're out because you can't prove that this is your egg. They can do that with anything and everything we sell. Wow.

Kate: How's that for you? Ah. As a farmer, does that feel cumbersome? Does it feel worthwhile? All of the above?

Mac Stone: Um, no. Most of it is good business. I need to know how much my chickens are eating. I need to know their rate of lay. I need to document, I need to Know that anyway, packaging it for them is kind of a pain a little bit. But having been certified for 22 or three years now, we know it's coming. We kind of, when we keep the records, then it's ready to go for the inspection. We like a, uh, tough inspection. Somebody that really dives in and makes sure. And really now there's some, there's some, you know, fuzzy math over here on these tomatoes, whatever, um, that we can prove what's right because if it wasn't tough, uh, it wouldn't mean anything.

Kate: The organic label also mandates that farming practices protect soil, water and animal welfare.

Harriet Behar: And again, when we think about animal agriculture, the first step in organic is promotion of health. Is anything to lessen stress and you know, give them, uh, you know, don't have them in a dark, damp place. You know, it needs to be sunny and good, good air circulation and that their bedding is clean and that they're getting high quality feed and that they're getting exercise. It also means that the farmer involved is, is really, um, caring about their ecosystem, that they realize that we're all downstream of each other. They want to have clean rivers, they want to have clean air, they want to leave their soil and their legacy of their livestock to their children or to the next person who buys them, um, in the healthiest state possible.

Kate: Creating a shared understanding of what organic actually means is an ongoing effort. The Organic Foods Production act of 1990 also established something called the National Organic standards board, or NOSB. The board consists of 15 cross sector volunteers who advise the USDA on organic matters. Both Harriet and Mac have served on this board. Mac shared how the board decides what belongs in organic agriculture. Right before I got on this call with you, I pulled up the latest, uh, NOSB working agenda. Um, and it was, I mean it's extensive. It's like a, uh, let's see, 28, six page document. And the items are just say things like, um, ozone, sodium hydroxide, beet juice, extract, color. So in your meetings, are you just going through this list and discussing, uh, the pros and cons of allowing that in organic certification.

Mac Stone: So every item sunsets every five years. So every five years everything has to be either put back on the list, kept on the list or taken off the list because with new information, new technologies, it may not be necessary. Um, so that keeps it updated. But then there's also companies or businesses that petition the board to add their product onto this list of allowed or usable substances. So it's a combination. I'll give an example um, we were petitioned. When I was on the board, we were petitioned to allow photo degradable plastic. You know, plastic's a big deal. We trying to get organic plastic out of organics all we can. So they came to the board with this biodegradable plastic. Well, we talked. So we had, uh, committee meetings weekly, maybe every other week. Don't exaggerate, but seemed like every other day. We discussed all the pros and cons. What are the polymers, what are the binding agents, blah, uh, blah, blah. And we decided that basically it was probably okay, but we didn't allow it because they were using GMO corn to make it. And we didn't want to promote GMO corn. We stayed with plastic. Plastic.

Kate: I asked Mac to say more about the decision to keep GMOs out of organic certification.

Mac Stone: Here's one story. Um, kind of a tangent to organic, but very much organic. The, um, GMO corn pollen situation. Um, the problem is the GMO corn, they can't keep their genes zipped up. If you have GMO corn on your farm and the pollen blows over onto my organic corn, then I can't sell my corn as organic because it's tainted with genetic modified genes. Then if I save that seed uneven, unwillingly, knowing that it was contaminated, if I save it to plant it next year, they can sue me for stealing the genetics because I didn't pay for their intellectual property of those genetics, but I can't sue them for ruining my organic corn. And that's Keith's Law.

Kate: Really? That's already been tested. There's no case that a farmer can bring against a. Wow. Wow.

Mac Stone: It's like if you have a purple house, I got a white house. You spray your purple house, it gets on my white house. I can't sue you for damaging my White House, but you can sue me for stealing your paint. It's a good metaphor, but the real. So GMOs are so not allowed in organic. It's not even in the regulation. It doesn't say, well, you can. I can. It doesn't say that in the definition section before you get to the regulation says GMOs are so not allowed. We're not even going to talk about it ever again in this book. Um, so the audacity of the GMO industry that they think they can run roughshod over Mother Nature because you hear about, uh, so they have this GMO corn to keep the earworm from eating the corn kernels. Well, if part of the field doesn't get covered, right? Or the Mix isn't right or whatever. Over time, some of these corn earworms don't die from it. They have some resistance to it. So then they live and procreate. And then the next year and many generations later, they have, ah, adapted to this toxin to where it doesn't kill them anymore. So they resisted it, then they adapted it. And so now the GMO guy, people have to keep tweaking their formulas to keep killing these insects as they evolve. So you go from resistance to adaption. If you spread that out, it's called evolution. Right. And so we're on the side of 4.5 billion years of evolution, not 30 or 40 years of lab bench technology.

Kate: I just imagine that the NOSB gets, like, pretty intense lobbying pressure.

Mac Stone: You think,

Kate: how do you navigate that as a board?

Mac Stone: So here's an example. Um, when they first adopted the organic rule, uh, sulfite added sulfite was allowed in wine because that was a norm in winemaking. Well, with that sunset every five years, we had to reassess that need. And some organic winemakers came, petitioned the board and said, and consumer advocates were saying sulfates and sulfites, you know, can cause some health people. And a lot of people have trouble with those. We think organic wine should not have added sulfites. It was allowed because all grape and wine have no natural sulfites. So. Oh, what's a little bit more. Okay, we'll get started. Fine. But so we discussed that for several years, couple of years at least. Should we have sulfites added or not? The winemaker, the organic winemakers said it's, um, you add sulfites if there's, if you have a very clean sanitary process of winemaking, you do not need to add sulfites. It's kind of like a band aid. Um, that may or may not be necessary. So we took it out. And the meeting where we were going to vote on it, we had international wine importers and people flew from France and all over the world to tell us, no, you got to leave this stuff in there or else, you know, it's going to ruin our businesses. And millions of dollars of organic wine fell off the shelf because we took it out. They were not happy. And now there's more organic wine because they can't rely on that crutch of added sulfites. So they make the wine, uh, in a way that they don't need to add sulfites in organic wines. Coming back. Same with hops. Hops, um, in organic beer, you didn't have to have Organic hops, because there wasn't any. Well, when I was on the board, the hop farmers said they'll never be organic hops if you don't require it. We required organic hops. Big Big Beer was not happy with us. And now organic beer is starting to come back into the fold.

Kate: Well now in your farming life, you also dedicate a large portion of your time towards mentorship for other farmers who might be interested in adopting organic practices. When a farmer reaches out and needs support with mentorship, what do you are the biggest questions or hurdles that they're grappling with?

Mac Stone: There's, there's two basic, uh, hurdles. Um, one is they're scared of making a mistake. What if I do all this and then I use the wrong thing or whatever? Um, because like on, in the regulations called the standards, the standards will say like on page 30 something you can use salt. On page 40 something it says you can't use salt. What's up with that? You know? Well, it's, it's vital nutrient in osmosis of nutrients in animals. But you can't use it as a herbicide. So the regulations, you have to sort of interpret and massage it in your mind to clear how this works for me, that fear of confusion or making a mistake. Um, then there's um, the other side of product. Um, input substitution. That's what I was trying to think of. Uh, so yes, there are some people say, oh, well, they're allowed to spray pesticides inorganic. Yes, that's true because the boar, the NOSB approved this natural occurring fungus that kills certain species, very targeted species of insects like the little cabbage, green cabbage loopers. It doesn't hurt anything else on the farm. So truth, technically we're allowed to spray pesticide, but not those thousands of other pesticides. Um, so there's confusion and fear of getting it right once you adopt. The fun part of being a mentor is watching people come, relax. They, once they start assimilating all this information and they start to get it, they're just so empowered. Like, I got this, I can farm without having to spray these pesticides and oh, what about this? And how about that? And then, um, one of the mentees that I had this year, he was just going to certify some land and hay ground just because he wanted to. He was fine, he has sheep. But by the end of our, um, mentorship process, he's going to certify organic his sheep. And you can just see his wheels turn. And now he's considering certifying his grapes. That are in the middle of the sheep pasture because he's learning more. And the intrigue and the excitement of figuring it out is what motivates a lot of people to go all the way towards organic. And then you got to help them to understand that the paperwork's not that big a deal if you kind of keep up with it as you go.

Kate: Today, consumer interest in organic is growing. According to the Organic Trade Association, Millennials and Gen Z are leading the charge in organic purchasing. Younger buyers are also showing increasing interest in the ecosystem benefits of organic, not just the personal health benefits. Currently, the demand for organic products in the US Outstrips domestic organic production. I asked Harriet what she thinks needs to happen so that more acres are transitioned into organic.

Harriet Behar: What, what new organic farmers need is not so many dollars per acre or how many dollars per cow or animal to transition. They needed mentorship and technical assistance because. And the existing organic farmers didn't want a flood of low quality organic product coming in. They wanted the new people to, to know everything that they know. So they're doing as good a job because we want that organic product to be a very high quality. And um, and so basically mentorship and technical assistance. And the other thing is, um, more support by, in, in the public domain. So let's, let's get organic milk in schools, let's get organic food in hospitals. Now we have had some programs start and drop back off and on and off, but a concerted effort. And we've seen this in Europe that having that public procurement, what it does is it, it normalizes organic as it's not this kind of strange thing or only for the elite, but it also provides a steady market to the producer. So again in marketing you want to have numerous outlets, right? So if one kind of goes down or you lose customer or whatever, you're not just only stuck with. So it's nice having this, this market here, the institutions. And then I go to farmers market and then I have the CSA and then I have some wholesalers that I sell to and then that was a nice mix for the growers. So that's, that's what I would say public procurement and the, the continuation of this technical assistance and mentorship. Because organic, as it says in the definition, is site specific. So if there is, it's not like conventional agri, you just come in and spray. It doesn't matter if it's sandy soil or clay soil or it's on a hillside or it's flat or whatever. In organic, each area you're paying attention to that ecosystem. And so when you have a, uh, mentor that has already worked through some of the kinks of that ecosystem, you're so far ahead when you are about to then embark on your own organic journey. So that's why the mentorship. And there's nothing like two farmers working together and trying to solve problems together.

Kate: Thank you to Harriet and Mac for their time. This is the last episode in this installment of the Taproot Project. We'd love to know what stories of creative and alternative projects in Midwestern agriculture you'd like to hear about next, so leave us a comment. The Taproot Project is produced by me, Kate Cowie Haskell. This podcast is an initiative of the Midwest Transition to Organic Partnership Program, a project funded by the USDA National Organic Program to support transition, transitioning and organic producers with mentorship and technical assistance, and to grow the greater organic community. Learn more@organictransition.org.