How Curiosity Turns People Skills Into Real Tech Impact

Speaker A: On this episode of the show, I have with me Todd Hazen. He is head of technical recruiting at Gusto. Uh, and we're going to be talking about making deep connections, obviously moving from the non tech side to the tech recruiting side, which Todd will talk to us about, is a big transition and you have to still execute. And. Well, uh, he figured out how to do that, how he leveraged his deep connections, use some of those fundamentals to drive results and, you know, honestly, also talking to stakeholders. And how do you do that when you move into areas that you might not have as much experience to see if we can cover a few of things with Todd, we'll see how much time we have. But Todd, thanks for taking the time.

Speaker B: Yeah, great. Great to be here. Thanks for having me. And excited to talk some more today.

Speaker A: Absolutely. All right, before we start, uh, why don't you tell everyone what Gusto does in case they don't know.

Speaker B: Yeah, if you don't know, we gotta find out. Yeah. Gusto is, uh, really here to service small businesses. Right. And, you know, we think about servicing over 400,000 small businesses today from, from payroll to benefits to tax help, uh, really helping small shops take the worry and concern out of how they're gonn employees right at the end of the day and really focus on the entrepreneurship so they can get back to focusing on their business. And so we've, we've done a great job of that and we're just getting started as we continue to find new ways to elevate our craft and again, make the small business, uh, owner's life as easy as possible. So.

Speaker A: Absolutely. All right, uh, this topic, obviously, um, you've worked at some, uh, you know, a great recruiting company positions before, and, um, we're going to talk about, obviously moving into a place where you might not be familiar with. So in this case, to preface that, maybe we'll take a step back. Uh, obviously people have to understand the context. Um, tell us a little bit about the. And now you find, and obviously you are the head of technical recruiting, just as the. You know, where we end up. But, but a little bit of context. Um, if you could, um, you know, what other areas have you focused on and other areas of recruiting that you've been involved in?

Speaker B: Yeah, love the question. Um, you know, I've really tried to, to be everywhere that I can be, and I think I've found myself with some really exciting opportunities. It's about the people and getting to know their profiles and it's exciting to learn about roles through the Candidates themselves, the hiring leaders, hearing about those experiences. Right. And so thinking back to my Robert half days and really being kind of green within the recruiting space and working with office administrative professionals and accounting professionals, um, all the way up to where I am today and really managing and leading and working alongside some of the best technical folks in the business. Business. Right. And so, you know, understanding, you know, what drives, what are the inner workings of what keeps a company moving. Right. Each role plays a different part in the success of that company. Uh, and so from go to market, from revenue, from sales, from, you know, Facebook, global security, working on the executive leadership protection in terms of, uh, folks that are, you know, running alongside executives and having to team up from that standpoint, it's been really fun in my career to think about the different spaces that I've been in and continuing to challenge myself and learning these new profiles. And if I don't know something, ask the candidate. Um, they're, they're the first ones that are willing to share the most with you.

Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, I guess in, in your case, you know, moving in from non tech to tech, um, there's obviously nuances in there. Um, you know, there are some things that don't change as well. And I think, uh, those are, those are maybe the few, uh, areas being covered. But I guess as you kind of found yourself moving in and transitioning into a more technical recruiting role, obviously speaking of candidates helps, but what else did you find yourself doing to kind of help yourself ramp up as well?

Speaker B: Yeah, lovely question. And you know, really thankful for the opportunity at Gusto and. Right. And being thankful for the team that I have in place today, um, you know, if they weren't there and leaning on them. So really thinking about the, uh, the recruiters, um, and some of the team members that are in place at Gusto that think about the transition, uh, you know, having the opportunity to flex in this space can feel overwhelming. But understanding and asking the questions. So really getting to know these hiring leaders and more importantly the recruiters on the team, as I mentioned earlier, uh, you know, they're on the forefront chatting with candidates. They understand the nuances of our practices the best. Um, and really understanding from them, you know, coming in with an open curiosity, hey, yes, I may be in this leadership role, but talk to me like I'm a junior recruiter. What are the things that you are top of mind for you. What's going well, what's not going well, and what are some opportunities that I can help leverage? Right. Um, I pivoted into this particular role, based on my understanding of knowledge, uh, within Gusto, the inner workings and opportunities and some of the amazing people that work here and how we can work with them even more so. So both the recruiter side and then the business side, you know, previous to taking on this role, I really took the time to get to know people in the office, colleagues that I didn't necessarily work directly with, seeing certain folks in the office that worked on the technical side. So surprisingly enough, uh, I was actually a recruiter. Short stint here, helping on some, some growth within our emerging segments. And so one of those is our chief of staff for engineering, who had actually hired as a candidate. And now you look in that role as actually a partner, as someone that I'm working alongside. And so that was someone that I could have a safe space with to, hey, what about this idea? What's going well? So not one. One person or one group really tried a blended approach to better understand each of the dynamics, um, and being able to get right to the questions based on having been at Gusto for over three years.

Speaker A: Absolutely. I guess if you were looking at, you know, just the path to transition, I think sometimes in recruiting we get really comfortable recruiting the roles that we're comfortable with. Um, you know, the more technical, they seem like they're more challenging in some ways. But then also it's just getting familiar with what the bar is. I think that's the hardest thing when you go into a new area is not that, can I find a candidate? Is can I actually understand what makes one candidate better than the other? I think that's the. That's. That's the challenge for me at least. But when you kind of look at that and you look at, obviously, you know, you put in some people in place obviously, to help you as well. But, you know, how long did it take you to actually get comfortable in looking at talent and understanding what those different bars look like?

Speaker B: There's some really great leaders that have taken the time so far in this role and getting to collaborate and understand. Right. So sitting in with the team and to your point, uh, and I 100% agree, it's finding what that bar is. And even if I find the bar for you and your team on this segment of technical side of the house, a new hiring manager, new role, a new space is going to bring a whole nother bar. Right. And so being able to meet them where they are and understanding early on what they're looking for and how do we think about what exists in the Ethernet, whether on LinkedIn or whether in a network or somebody knows how do I find what that bar is and through the conversation and I think that's the challenge is, you know, at gusto, we're innovating that bar raises. So if I've hired for you last year, when I'm hiring for you today, it's going to look a lot different because we're moving at such a pace that we're going to, that's even significantly increased as well. And so really the calibration, you know, process from an intake to understanding what they're, you know, looking for, bringing in some of the key metrics of the data to you know, from a talent LinkedIn type of insights. Right, Bringing in some information about hey, you want this profile? How many of those people exist from a uh, title standpoint or years of experience standpoint and then directing the conversation from there and again working with super talented recruiters, uh, to help me too. Um, you know, hey, what are these searches that are more complicated and why and making it a fun opportunity to learn and not so much of hey, why aren't we filling this faster? It's great. We understand this is a high touch role, this is what it's going to impact, um, making sure we're clear on what the importance are and more importantly what are the outcomes of this role um, that we're going to be seeking. Is this a revenue generating role? Is this going to increase our presence within AI uh, really getting to understand the baseline there so we can then match that with the client as well. Um, but like I said, it's always an ongoing calibration where those constant check ins with leaders and even for my own team, as I'm looking at building out my own recruiting team, what we hired for two years ago may look a little different today just based on the space that we're going and how we're navigating, mitigating some of the market complexities as well.

Speaker A: I really like that. And you know, I guess as, you know as you grow into the role, things will change and you'll have other challenges to overcome. I think when you do move into this role, do you have advice if someone at some point does go through it? I mean it's good for them to earmark this. But is there things that you're like, you know what, I should have considered this stuff or there's things I could have done in preparation into moving into new area of recruiting.

Speaker B: This is uh, my favorite question so far. I mean and I think it's an important one and this is only speaking from my personal experience. Right. I can't speak for others, but I think it's, it's okay to be humbled and be vulnerable in a lot of ways. You know, for me, I think I initially came in and had this feeling that I had to know everything and hold it all together and things are perfect and I know what I'm doing. Ah, right. And I think that that led to some missed opportunities for me to learn early on and I think, you know, understanding. And once I started to break through those doors, as I meet with our, uh, you know, awesome CTO and some of his leadership and they'd ask a question and then I'd be like, you know what? I'm not sure. Let me check on that and get back to you. Right. And that was such a well received response, at least from, from their end of saying, as opposed to throwing something out that I may think was right or I wasn't sure on and exposed to not speaking with, not absolute confidence coming back and actually following up with more concrete details. And so I think that that piece of being, being okay to say you don't know everything and really leaning aspects, what are the things I know really well. Right. And I can lean on those and I can fall back on those. Um, and then on the things I'm not taking the extra time, you know, for me, I began reaching out to folks on LinkedIn that had a similar title and I started taking calls. Right. And I said, what are you guys doing? What are you thinking about as a peer in the space? You know, a lot of it's a, how am I going to leverage you? I need a network to find a job. It's like, no, I'm here for advice. Right. And some folks were willing to take that time and share some of those own experiences and really put that line, uh, learner's mindset back on. And again, there's a lot of elements that I didn't know how to do. Right. As we think about the translatables of recruiting, there's. What are the functions that I can lean really well? Team development, team focus, setting clear KPIs, removing roadblocks, getting into the weeds and getting my hands dirty and being okay to address some of the problems head on, or I call them opportunities head on. Um, and being okay to navigate those kind of pieces as well. So those are what I would, you know, to anyone in the similar roles. And I know people are thinking about changing careers, they're thinking about taking that big step. And it's okay to be uncomfortable. For me, I've always tried to lean in. Why I wanted to take this on. It's. I love to learn, and if you're not being uncomfortable, you're not. Um, there's an old quote that I had dug up that I remember hearing a couple times. Right. And it's from one of the old former, uh, CEO CEOs of IBM. But it's really growth and comfort do not coexist. If you're not learning, you're not growing. And for me, I love having that opportunity to grow and learn. I love for someone to teach me something and being the first one to admit that, hey, I learned this new and ultimately owning some mistakes if I did make them as well. So we're not perfect in human nature. And it's okay to make some of those mistakes because that means I'm trying new things. I'm being a little bit disruptive. I'm bringing in a new approach from what has always been. I think there are certain companies, hey, well, we've always done it this way. Right. And Gusto is really trying to lead the forefront in terms of being innovative and new thinking and new ideas and really promoting a culture where we can have this type of collaboration and execution, uh, to not only solve our problems for today. Right. We're at Gusto. We're solving problems for our customers, and that's at the forefront of everything that we're trying to do as well.

Speaker A: Absolutely. I guess a question for you, and that's actually fantastic, by the way. I mean, you outlined a lot of areas that I think people can leverage, uh, and fall back on your learnings when you are. And you said, obviously, sometimes you just don't know and you have to mention that. And I guess that's the. That might be a little part that is tricky, especially if you're intervening with a stakeholder. I mean, a lot of us are uncomfortable saying we don't know. Um, I was told, uh, I grew up in consulting, so I was told to embrace that. Yeah. That was not something you hide from. Um, when you do find yourself in those positions where you're with a hiring manager and, I mean, you just might not know. Um, how do you kind of, you know, help yourself, get out of those, uh, those conversations or how. How do you. How do you handle them? Rather not get out of them.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I'm running. I'm running as fast as. No, I think, you

Speaker A: know,

Speaker B: ultimately. And I'm not much of a. And I'm not much of a Runner. I'm a water guy. So, uh, but yeah, as you think about those situations, you know, early in my career I would have swept through my shirt and, you know, kind of mumbled my way out of it. And you know, I think there's instances where, you know, I, it's really being head on and it comes back to the partnerships that I have with the people, the stakeholders that I'm working alongside. And you know, it's the open conversations, it's the seeking to understand, um, you know, not coming in saying I'm going to, I'm going to fix every problem you have or everything you need in your office is not the reality of it. And so I think some of those honest conversations that I approach with these stakeholders, we can have that sense of trust. Right. Um, and you see that from their ends too, of, hey, well, how's this? Well, I'm, you know, on there and maybe I'm not sure about this too. And there's some of that, uh, you know, open opportunity for conversation that we find some common balance. And so to your point, not trying to away from it, but the head on and, and that's through the trust form. And how have I built that trust and in this moment, can I build that trust? Right. And a lot of that's, hey, I don't have this today, but this is when you can expect to have it from me. And not only do I do it by that time, but I do it before. And so, you know, I never want to have anyone follow up with me after a meeting. It's that one number rule that I have. I want to beat you to the punch every time. Hey, I want to get this to you before you ask for it. And that's something that I try and lean on. And hey, remember this meeting we had yesterday morning? Well, here's the data to support it, here's the breakdown, and here's how we find it moving forward. Hey, here's my recommendation based on what you asked for. Hey, here's that market data that we are needing to do. Um, so that follow through execution for me is, you know, how I found success in getting out of those type of situations where I may feel uncomfortable or I feel that I need to know everything. And I, I will know it, but I just don't know it yet. And I'll provide that to you in a more informed way. And I think that that type of interpretation from the clients is again, that trust factor that continues to be built as well.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Uh, I guess one, one question in that, in that vein just to kind of follow up, I guess making the move to technical, I mean I, I could see the benefits of why someone would, would dive in there opportunities given you're going to take it. I mean in terms of your overall career, you could have not, I mean you could have just gone down the path you were. Was the decision to take the technical routing to fill a void, was it a new challenge? Because obviously and a bigger career picture, obviously. I was just kind of curious where you kind of felt it, felt it fit in.

Speaker B: Yeah, no great question. And you know, for me I think. And again going back to vulnerability and candidness, right. Like I've always, I've been on non tech most of my career, all my career. I feel I can do it very well. Is that a safe bet? 100% right. Where I'm able to uh, ultimately stay in a space that I know and do that. Right. And there a potential opportunity arose. And I think ultimately that led me to thinking about, you know, what I'd earlier said of I don't like to be comfortable. Right. And you know, I tend to shy away from um, I'll call it risk of you know, to your point, on a career leap, it could go either way, right. I'm betting on myself and I'm understanding what I'm able to do. But more importantly I felt the support from my leadership, right. And I wouldn't have taken that leap without that of understanding like hey, here's what I'm thinking. Here are my concerns here that I think is going to go well. Um, you know, and having that support of like here's what I can't do and I can do and being a little bit more prescriptive earlier on. And so that support really helped me feel the leap of confidence that I could take this forward. Right. And understanding the circumstances, understanding the team, um, and being able to understand what, yeah. What it could do for my career. But if I think about what I can do and what I can do well and what do I, what can I achieve in my first 30 days, 60 days and really focus on making it more bite size, it became a lot more digestible for me. Rather than taking on this huge, huge undertaking that now, you know, seven, eight, nine months in, um, we're making that progress, you know, where now we're thinking about year plans, now we're thinking about two year plans and taking bigger picture. So kind of a bit of an opportunity that where I was positioned and the knowledge of gusto that I had, um, I felt I was Able to push for it, both from being presented with the opportunity, but also a bit of that raising my hand and being a little bit pushy on understanding what I think I can accomplish and what the proximity were and what are the symptoms. Some of the things we're thinking about, um, that I can maybe highlight as we go through a little bit more. But that's kind of what's top of mind for me.

Speaker A: I like that. And I guess, you know, uh, that's. Those are all really good reasons as well. And I guess as you kind of have been there now, uh, in a couple of, you know, for a couple of months, and, you know, filling into this role and obviously, you know, getting more comfortable with that position when you think about where you'd like to go next, because obviously, you know, from head of technical recruiting, there's only a few other positions. Do you think you want to round out into the people side? Do you stay on the talent side? Because there's only a few other steps left before, uh, you bump into a little bit of a Sealy.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I love that. And I think, you know, great question. I have a phenomenal leadership coach, right? And that's the other piece going back to, you know, Gusto offered us a leadership coach, and so someone in a safe space that you can talk about these things. And one of the questions is exactly that. What's your North Star? You know, as I went through that and reflected a little bit more, I think it's more the foundation that I have today. I want to be really good at what I want to do. I need to master the craft, and I think that's where I find the excitement from this. This role is I have certainly not mastered it. Right. And there's so much more to learn, and there's some nuances that I gotta, you know, grasp from, from engineering to the product to the design, to the data side of these houses. Right. They're so intricate within each of their roles that I kind of shaped it, my North Star, to be a little bit more focused on that and less of a title that I'm chasing or a role. But I. I think. I think we all have those. At least I have in my moment of life, or do. And so really focused on Gusto and building what we have here in the team that we have. Right. We have some amazing leaders, we have some amazing product. And now I need to fill my own voids in terms of my own leadership and the things that I'm thinking about to really help my team scale myself, scale Before I can get to that point of it, you know, we're in the world of people, which I love. Uh, and probably similar for you, why you're, you're really good at your job. Amir is, you know, we're connecting with people, we're solving problems and we're doing that. Um, you know, with things changing around us is you may have a different feel with what you want to do today and I might have a different feeling. And how do we still get things done around that as well? So long way of saying it's top of mind but the work's not done in terms of what I'm thinking about. And definitely feeling challenged in a great way with a lot of opportunity ahead of me.

Speaker A: Absolutely. I love it. Todd, uh, fantastic views, uh, great insights into the transition. I'm sure there's probably a question in there we didn't ask. Somebody's going to want to follow up with you. Is there a good way of connecting with you and asking, asking you a question about your, your journey, your, your, you know, kind of changes and shifts that we talked about?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. Um, like I said, you know, Todd Hazen to D D uh H A Z e n on LinkedIn. So happy to connect. I love chats. You know, I've been trying to get more involved in network within the Bay Area where I'm located as well and you know, doing talent dinners and uh, you know, doing some networking events. We were at the Render conference in Atlanta not that long ago, so working with our rising talent program. So always open to a conversation, learning more. And again, I think my only lasting advice is just truly be yourself and you know, ask the questions and build those partnerships is, you know, that's going to get you a long ways. So

Speaker A: absolutely love it. Thanks Todd for coming on. Thanks for sharing. I really do appreciate it.

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks me. I appreciate the time, love the questions and conversation and yeah, look forward to talking more soon.

Speaker A: Absolutely. All right, that's it for this episode. Be back again. Different guests, different set of questions and obviously we want you to hopefully appreciate this episode and the insights that uh, Todd shared. I think a lot of great advice and I'd love if you could share this episode with others that also could benefit from Todd's journey, his advice, his insights. He moved into the head of technical recruiting role and he was pretty, uh, open and candid in terms of the ramp up, the experience, how he kind of approaches some of those tough stakeholder conversations. I think it was fantastic. So I'd appreciate you guys sharing this with others that might benefit. Also, please, like, subscribe and comment on the, uh, the podcast. Let me know if there's something you want to, uh, have me, uh, do. If there's a topic, if there's something you guys want me to cover, let me know. Until next time, thank you and goodbye.