EP. 21- Confidence Strategies for Sales Leaders and Tech Professionals With Vanessa Porter

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Um, welcome to the Supercharger sales philosophy podcast, the show where I help you drive more opportunities, bigger deals and faster wins. If you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe to the channel and give us a thumbs up if you enjoy the show. I'm Fergal of Carl and today I'm really delighted to chat with a special guest, Vanessa Porter. Vanessa is the chief Learning Officer at Beeline Communication, her own business. We where her mission is simple but powerful. Help brilliant tech experts, speak human and lead with confidence. Now, with over 25 years in global tech and data, she's worked everywhere from London's financial sector to Saudi Arabia's Vision 2030 programs. Along the way, she's discovered how to transform subject matter experts into trusted advisors who can influence decisions at the very top of organizations. At Beeline, she's built programs that don't just teach communication skills, they actually change behavior, helping teams close deals faster, win executive buy in, and amplify the voices of women and underrepresented leaders in tech. Vanessa, uh, you're very welcome to the show.

Speaker A: Thank you very much. Nice to be here.

Speaker B: Terrific to have you on. I wanted to start off with your business Tagline, because by the way, I love the tagline. So the tagline, uh, for those that haven't seen it, speak human, lead with confidence. Tell me how you came up with that.

Speaker A: Well, I've been working in technology companies for years, although you would never believe it. And what I've seen over and over and over again is that what we do in the tech industry is we talk technical. We talk about technical things, we talk about features and functions. That's our comfort zone. And you know, a lot of that's because that's how the world validates us. So when we're at school, we're validated by getting things right and having the answers right when we go out into the world. Actually, what the world's wanting us to do right now is to stop having the answers right and to start kind of influencing people, to start building networks, to start doing all of those things, which are just incredibly difficult for a lot of people. So the whole kind of leading with confidence thing is something I think is really important to kind of focus on, um, because it's one of those things that we tell people to do, but we don't teach them how to do it. So I had a really interesting conversation this weekend. A friend of mine who's a 35 year veteran sales guy came to stay for the weekend with his wife and he was telling me he goes into meetings still absolutely terrified. But uh, what he does and what I'm trying to teach to people who come on my courses is that confidence, it's a skill and an action and not necessarily a feeling. But I think where we are in the world right now is that with AI the human relationships become increasingly more important and being able to go into conversations, understanding what people's priorities are, understanding outcomes and building influence through confidence is really important.

Speaker B: Okay, that's a great answer. And you talked about a salesperson there who's still somewhat nervous going in. So it's not just these tech individuals that you're targeting.

Speaker A: There are a lot of really great coaches out there for salespeople, Fergal you being one of them. I think what where we are with techies, you know, people in consulting, people in support, even people in customer success, is that there isn't the kind of, the big kind of sales coaching infrastructure available.

Speaker B: They get left behind somewhat, don't they?

Speaker A: They do get left behind and they just get told to do things like, like they'll say go and be a trusted advisor and everybody's like okay, all right, I'll go and do that. But they don't know what it means because you know, nobody explains. So you know, for some people, you know, somebody in support being a, ah, trusted advisor might mean, oh that's absolutely fine. I can just tell them that it's never going to work because that's what it means to those people. For somebody in consulting it might mean that you're explaining something to the nth degree. I don't think we're equipping our post sales people to be able to change their mindset from you know, kind of feature function, right and wrong answers into building influence and, and building outcomes. Is that something that you've seen?

Speaker B: It makes total sense because when I was running SAS teams and also as an individual contributor there was always, and I was in tech, so there was always a technical solution, solution architect or whatever names they gave these, the, these different roles and there were some, I'll just say technical people who I felt were very good in a salesy situation, in other words, where we're still maybe in that pre sales situation. And there were, there were others who clearly weren't, they weren't comfortable in that situation and they used to frighten us as salespeople because we'd be saying, I'm not sure what they're going to say in the meeting, I need to control them in the meeting, I need to limit what they say. I need to be careful they don't speak the, I'd, uh, say the truth, meaning they don't kind of hide anything, uh, that they should probably just keep a little quiet at this moment in time because we're still going discovery. And I don't mean being underhand, I just mean being a bit smart about how you deal with, uh, situation. So I think the angle you're coming at is absolutely needed because I know those individuals also felt that discomfort. So yes, I've absolutely seen that. So I, uh, want to talk a bit about getting from tech expert to trusted advisor. Why do these brilliant technical people or subject matter experts have such trouble in getting their ideas heard by decision makers? Because they just get completely overwhelmed with the technology they have. What's been your experience?

Speaker A: I think it's becoming more, more the case now. There is so much technology that can do so many amazing things. And what we're really interested in as a tech industry is buttons and features and functions. And being able to translate the features and functions and the buttons into a business outcome is something that we just don't teach people how to do it. We teach people how to be technologists. We don't teach people the relationship between the button and the outcome. And some of that's just about kind of sitting people down and explaining it to them and helping them to understand, you know, those relationships. But I think it's also that it's kind of easy. I don't mean easy, but I suppose it is easy for people to, to sit in, in the area of technology. Because technology, it either does or it doesn't. It works or it doesn't. Right. And um, people are just much more complicated. People are just difficult and awkward and have their own opinions and agendas and, and all of those things. I think it's easier to kind of sit in a world of technology where you are absolutely sure what's going to happen next. If you do X thing, then Y thing will happen. If you go into a meeting expecting, you know, outcome B after saying thing a nine times out of 10, that's never going to happen. It's really, really challenging for people. I think it's really challenging.

Speaker B: Give me a clue as to how you start off the process with these technical experts and get them to that, you know, that, that hallowed ground of being the trust advisor. What's that look like in your world? How do you do that?

Speaker A: You've got to start with what does the outcome look like and what's the point? What's in it for Them, it's the same as selling anything else. Right. What is the outcome going to be for you? And that's a really interesting place to be right now because, you know, if you're, if you're a developer or a technical support specialist or even, you know, somebody in consulting, the obvious thing for what's in it right now is that you will have a longer, more productive, better paid career. You know, as AI takes over the grunt work of what you're doing, you need to be able to develop those skills to.

Speaker B: Can I jump in there for a sec? Because you just mentioned AI, and I'm just thinking as you're talking. So if I'm. I'm a texting technical expert, my client now has an AI assistant available to them 24 7. And I'm guessing they can speed up that whole features, buttons, you know, they can figure all that out before I even meet with you. So in some ways, the added value of this highly technical person is reduced because now I can get a lot of that information before I even meet with you. So I kind of skip ahead. So I think what you're doing is even more important, right? Because now that there's. There's so much, uh, I'll call it technical information at our fingertips, anyone can access it through an AI assistant. So I'm a technical expert and I'm in one of your workshops. So how are you helping me?

Speaker A: So, first of all, we're thinking about what is a trusted advisor and making that kind of mindset shift. So we're going from a technical advisor, so somebody who is known for what they know, and we're trying to help them to understand that actually what they need to do is be valued for the outcome that they deliver. So first of all, you've got to be able to be really clear about what the outcomes are. And again, it's something that we don't necessarily teach people or we massively overcomplicate it. I think there's six things. So, you know, outcomes that people are looking for are, uh, basically, I want to make more money, I want to spend less money, I want to be more efficient, so I want to do things faster, I want to reduce risk, I want to probably do new, sexy things. And then the final one, which is one that we never talk about, is I want to look great, I want the promotion, I want people to think I'm really sexy. You know, I want to be able to get my new kitchen, all of that personal stuff. So if you can kind of get people to think about People that they know and what are the outcomes that they're looking for, then you can start to map back, okay, so what does my technology do for that person? Okay, so that's step number one. And then you've got to then overcome the barrier about, well, I can't do that. You know, how am I going to go from a lifetime of talking about technology?

Speaker B: Exactly. I'm a tech person. I don't do that. That's left to somebody else.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I don't bother with that.

Speaker A: I don't know the language, I don't know what you're talking about. So you've got to help people just to be able to kind of reframe what they know and what their skills are into thinking about technology as opposed to thinking about outcomes.

Speaker B: It's a mindset shift there. Right. Gotta go from that I'm a tech advisor to I'm m a trusted advisor to the client.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And that's something that, you know, I've been thinking an awful lot about, which is how do you get that stuff to stick? Because it's all very well bunging somebody on a course for, you know, an hour and a half or sticking somebody on some E learning where they'll fast forward until they get to the end for something that I absolutely never did when I was doing elearning. But you've got to be able to kind of construct this stuff in a way that makes sense to them. So when I'm working with customers, I'll look at the industry that they're working with, the kind of technology that they're working with, and I'll guide them through that process. So if somebody's working in cyber security, then I'll help them to understand how do you translate the technical language into one of those outcomes that somebody understands. So from a cyber security perspective, the outcome that a chief customer officer would be looking for would be potentially making more money because you're gaining trust, or it could be saving money because you don't have to deal with a data breach. Or it could be exploring new things because you might be able to open up a new market in terms of securing customer data or whatever it is. And also not forgetting the how do you make that person look great? How do you give that person a platform that to be able to get the outcome that they need? That's a combination of, you know, classroom training, some E learning, workbooks, kind of journaling, and a bit of coaching as well. When I do the coaching, I would bring in somebody who was an expert in that particular subject. So if I was talking about cybersecurity, I'd bring in a cyber security specialist. And that helps kind of overcome the objections. If you can show somebody who's been through that journey and been through that pathway already that then it helps people to see themselves in that role.

Speaker B: How far are we through the six steps?

Speaker A: Oh, number one. Number one. And that's. And that's the big one. Because once, once you're, Once you're in it, once you can see what's in it for them, then you can fly. Then the rest of it is about just kind of giving people the tools and the resources to be able to understand how to build relationships, how to tell stories, all of that stuff.

Speaker B: Do you get some resistance? Because, uh, you know, I've worked, worked in tech industry a long time and I know some tech people are just not interested in what you've described. They're much more at home and comfortable, you know, with the features. And this is not, I'm not trying to say that's necessarily a bad thing. That is their comfort zone and they're very good at it. And their response to you might be, look, that's for the salesperson or customer or somebody else, just not me. Bring me in and I'll do my tech bit and leave me alone.

Speaker A: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And for a lot of people, that's, you know, particularly I think, people in the later stages of their career, that's where they want to be. They've spent a lifetime building up kind of really deep knowledge and expertise, and they can't see what's in it for them. And, um, you know, sometimes that's absolutely fine. But I think that in the market as it is now, where there are so many technology vendors and so much competition and so much noise, if you're working in a tech organization, you've got to be able to help that technology organization to differentiate.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I kind of touched upon it earlier because I just feel that with the evolution of AI and how it helps a buyer. So, for example, if I'm trying to buy a CRM system, which I've done recently, I didn't need to speak to the software vendors at all. I could give my requirements to my AI assistant, be very specific about what I'm looking for and what I don't need, and it's able to determine what software is probably best suited to me. And I think that's really interesting for those companies. And, um, maybe we're, you know, because we're seeing a few layoffs in some of the tech companies. And I think they're already seeing this, that some of these technical advisors are not necessarily needed, but I think they're needed in a different capacity, which is where you're coming from.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think there's all sorts of ways that you can become, you know, a trusted advisor in the world of AI. So, you know, when you're ChatGPT or Claud or whoever it is is making those recommendations, it's getting those recommendations from out there in the world. Where's it getting them from? Is it getting them from blogs? LinkedIn? Is it getting them from customer reviews? It's getting them from everywhere. And being able to articulate really clearly what the outcomes, the benefits of your particular technology is in whatever forum is really important.

Speaker B: Because I think if you go back a few years prior to AI, those type of companies would be looking to influence the search engines. So they want to get up higher in the rankings. I think now they're trying to influence the AI engines, the LLMs, to actually put forward the right recommendation. Because I'm, you know, personally speaking, I'm not going to a search engine anymore to do that type of analysis. Help me understand your experiences in this cross culture. Because I've mentioned Saudi Arabia in the introduction. You've had some experience there. Obviously, you've had a lot of experience in Europe. You're based in the uk, so there must be some cultural differences that you come across in terms of communication, uh, styles, how you're doing your workshops. Is it any different to doing a workshop in Saudi Arabia versus the UK versus France, or is it all the same? Do you just have a single framework that you work through?

Speaker A: No, I think it's about how people want to engage. The framework is the same. What's different is cultural context and technical content, I think, are the two things that's different. So the Saudi thing is just blowing my mind. What's going on in Saudi? So I'm not sure whether you know about Vision 2030 and all of that stuff.

Speaker B: Uh, plus, I'm vaguely aware of it, but I'd love to hear more.

Speaker A: Basically, you know, the government are reducing their dependence on oil revenue and transforming the economy through a number of initiatives, one of which is bringing women into the workforce. And what's really interesting is that, you know, they have a very highly educated female population because women have been at home for a long time, but they've been, you know, kind of getting themselves educated and they're doing incredibly well at getting women on board and getting Women into jobs. So 43% of cyber security employees in Saudi are women, as opposed to, you know, low 20s for the rest of the world. So they're doing incredibly well at getting women into the workforce. And what they're intentionally doing is investing in learning and development, leadership training, soft skills that will help women to thrive and progress. And it's not just women, but that's the area that I'm, that I'm kind of particularly interested in. It's going to be a massive differentiator for that part of the world. Not just having a very technical workforce, but having a workforce who can lead with influence and authority and confidence because they've been given those kinds of skills. It's really, really interesting.

Speaker B: It is actually, isn't it? Just to think that there's a workforce there that hasn't got the experience yet. They have the education, you know, you're bringing that together and helping them get out into the workforce. Talk about business outcomes for a second. You touched on it earlier. I've gone through your course. I've understood now I need to be a trusted advisor. But what outcomes have you seen? Because obviously you've pushed a lot of people through this course already. What are you seeing? Like, uh, what are the outcomes that your, I'll, uh, call them students are getting from the coursework?

Speaker A: So, you know, your, your end of the sales process is acquiring customers. My end of the process is about retaining and growing existing customers. If you are able to build trusted relationships with key decision makers, then you end up at the table early. You know, you get into the conversations when early decisions are being made. You're much more able to grow your footprint in particular organizations. You're able to influence decisions, you're able to influence technical roadmaps. I mean, cybersecurity is a really interesting one because it's sort of the opposite of what I've always done, which is kind of data and analytics, where, you know, of the six things, what you're doing is making people more money or reducing costs. With cyber security, you're reducing risk. So you're, you know, you're effectively selling the absence of something. And that's a really interesting place to be as a vendor because it's really difficult to sell large solutions that may or may not stop something happening that may.

Speaker B: The outcome. The outcome is it didn't happen.

Speaker A: The outcome is nothing. Exactly.

Speaker B: Nothing happened. Yeah.

Speaker A: For example, I'm working with a, um, great organization at the moment who do quantum computing for Cypher, and that's a really interesting area. Which kind of highlights that because quantum computing is, you know, either six months or two years or five years off, depending on, you know, who you talk to. But when it hits, it's either going to be enormous or it's not.

Speaker B: It's like a Y2K moment. If you're old enough to remember that.

Speaker A: Yeah, oh yeah, very much. Um, that becomes a really interesting conversation. So if you're having a technical conversation with a, uh, you know, a ciso, then you're talking about bits versus qubits or, you know, whatever. It's all completely over my head. But what we've been able to do is kind of reframing the conversation from a technical conversation to a trusted advisor conversation is to start thinking about, you know, on that list of six things, what are the new opportunities that particular organizations could access as a result of this technology. So this company I'm working with have started talking to insurance companies so they can help their clients to reduce their cyber risk. So by being able to kind of reframe a technical conversation into an outcomes based conversation, then they're starting to sell into new markets. I think that's a kind of really, really concrete example of, of why that trusted advisor shift becomes really important.

Speaker B: We've talked quite a bit about people who are already in the workforce. What about those students who are about to join the workforce? Are you able to do something there? Right. Because I must admit, you know, I'm towards the latter end of my career. And I'm glad, really, I'm not at their stage because there's so much flux in the marketplace. It's hard to know what career choices to make. How are you helping there?

Speaker A: So I'm effectively sort of taking the same framework and applying it to undergraduates. When we talked earlier about the fact that people have often kind of been validated by their technical skills or their academic skills or what they know graduates are, uh, right in the middle of that. You know, they know all about history or economics or psychology or whatever it is, but the market is not where it was 30 years ago. And I really feel that kind of Korea's advice is still 30 years old. You know, it's, uh, a, it's kind of. Are you old enough to remember Mr. Ben? Did you have Mr. Ben in Ireland?

Speaker B: That does sound familiar.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, you know, in Mr. Ben there was a range of jobs. You could be a shopkeeper or a fireman, or you could be a dustman or you could be a builder. Jobs aren't like that anymore. I mean, if I tried to describe my job to somebody who wasn't in it, they'd be absolutely mystified. And your job as well. So you've got to be able to help people to translate the skills that they have rather than the knowledge they have into what does the market need? So effectively, what's the outcome? For undergraduates, one of the key things that they need to be doing is networking and that's absolutely terrifying. It's terrifying for me, it's terrifying for you, it's terrifying for everybody. But for people of 20 and 21, it's mind blowing that you would even have to do that. Part of what I teach on the main course is how to network without it feeling transactional. That's really hard. And for students I'm teaching, you know, that's, that's a big part of what I'm teaching there. That's really important for me because I was born at a, uh, really good time in history where I was able to have a really great career in tech despite having no idea how any of it actually works. And also when jobs were pretty plentiful. But people coming into today's market, it's so difficult. The market is so difficult and they need an edge. And I think for a lot of people, if they've got, if they're well connected already, that's really easy.

Speaker B: I've done a podcast, go back maybe season one, I think it was with Stephen, uh, Hillman, who talked about the power of networks and he's big into networking and it's, it's a great episode. I, I, I learned a lot from it. And people would say to say, for example those undergraduates, I don't have a network. I mean, I'm not in the workforce, I have a few mates, but I don't have a network. And his answer to that is, well, you do have a network because you have a few mates, right? And each one has another few mates and so forth. But you have to push yourself to build your own network. So I think that's great advice. When we talk about advice, if you were to look back at a, say, a younger Vanessa, knowing what you know now, right. Would you have changed anything going back, say 20 odd years ago? I mean you talked about having this great career and it, and I, I too had a great start to my career by getting into it early, didn't really know what it was, but enjoyed it. And I think I was just very lucky because it was the beginning of something and I was able to kind of ride it all the way through and now I think there's another revolution happening with the AI revolution around the ability to generate code and so forth. And, you know, programmers are probably thinking, well, where do I fit in all of this? So it's really tricky. So what would you give, any advice you'd give to yourself going back 20 odd years?

Speaker A: I think the big thing for me would have been confidence because I thought that everybody else had it and I was the one that didn't. And I've realized that imposter syndrome is not a syndrome because everybody's got it. It can't be. It just is part of the human condition. And I think that, you know, kind of understanding that confidence is a skill and an action and not just a feeling. It can be earth, uh, shattering. I think, being able to talk to people about, you know, how they feel about their careers and what they would have changed and all those things. I think for a lot of people it would have been, you know, I wish I'd just been more confident. I wish I'd felt able to do the things that, you know, I really wanted to do. But you can learn that stuff and you can just practice that stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you could, you could potentially go through an entire career almost without having learned that skill. But it's never too late. You can still learn.

Speaker A: What about you, Fergal? What would you change?

Speaker B: I'll be honest with you. I. I look back at my career with great pride because I, uh, just certain element of luck. So I got into it, as I mentioned, just, I mean, I was into it as a kid and I kind of had a creative side and I had this kind of logical technical side. So I used to love drawing and doing art and all of that. And then I kind of got drawn to the technical side and I realized there was money in that. So I went into it. And at the time, like, the Internet didn't exist, there was no email, personal computers didn't exist. You know, these were dumb terminals, these green things with keyboards and just all text. And I got in at that stage, which is very early really, and I was able to develop a fantastic career out of it. And then I was also able to swap into sales later on because I kind of ended up in this consulting, technical consulting role. And I kind of almost by accident fell into that. I think when I look back in the career though, I, I mean, I probably didn't focus on getting coaching or training as much as I should have, particularly when I came into sales, because I got no training. For example, when I kind of Started off as what I'll call a pure salesperson, but even before that, when I was doing a mix of say, pre sales, post sales and technical delivery, I was just picking it up as I was going, you know, and even then the Internet wasn't, was still early days, so you were still buying books, you know, for the bookstore to kind of understand what sales was. I think if I were to give myself my younger self some advice, it would definitely be probably invest in a personal coach, not, not even forget about sales for a second, just a personal career coach. And be more serious about your steps in your career. Because I just kind of let it happen, whatever kind of came along. And I was lucky enough, you know, I got some promotions along the way and that kind of propelled me into things, but it was, it was. None of it was about design. A lot of it was just, um, I won't call it quite accent, but somewhere in between that.

Speaker A: Do you think that you had, you just knew how to sell? Do you think you kind of had that in you or do you. Were there things that kind of helped you to, to make that shift from techie to seller advisor?

Speaker B: Uh, I don't think I would be truthful if I said I knew how to sell, I knew how to listen, which is a big part of selling. You know, that's the famous quote. We've got two ears and one mouth, you know, you should use them in that order. And I think being able to listen to the client without interrupting, without kind of leading with your offer initially is a big part of sales and you've touched upon it already. So understanding the client's pain, the risks, the issues that you can address for the client, if you can lead with them rather than leading with whatever techy offer or any other offer that you have, because you're basically then commoditizing yourself. You sound like everybody else when you lead with what you offer. No, I wouldn't say necessarily I knew how to, uh, sell, but I enjoyed the process of learning over time. And you learn by mistakes, right? And unfortunately, most salespeople I talk to never had any training at all, never got coached. And they've fallen into a certain way of selling. And for some of them it works nicely and for a lot of them it doesn't. And they struggle and they move from job to job and in particular leadership and management. Don't know if you've seen this now, but a lot of them have probably in your space too, have never received training in anything. And they were probably good as individual sellers. Or individual technologists and then they get promoted to managing these teams of people. And yet they've never been trained in management either. These are the individuals who are leading people coming into the workforce. We just talked about them. So they come into the workforce expecting, you know, leaders with fantastic training and understanding and yet most of these leaders don't have any of it. So that's a very long winded way of saying I, I think I'd love to have had the foresight to just do some coaching and get some personal coaching along the way. I think that would have been very beneficial. I want to finish up with one question for you, Aurora. And this is, uh, it's an area that I've, I've listen, heard about, but I don't really understand it. So this concept of breath work or mind body workshops, tell me a bit about that because I'm kind of curious the link between that and what you're doing.

Speaker A: I think we live in our brains as technologists, people who work in the tech industry. We spend our entire times in our head and there is a really strong connection between what goes on in your mind and what goes on in your body and your nervous system. And I've talked a lot about, you know, confidence, about influence, about authority, about authenticity, you know, all of those things and all of that comes from having a really calm, really regulated nervous system. Where we are, I think in society is that we treat an email coming in in the same way that we would being chased down the street by a lion. It's exactly the same for our nervous systems. And um, when your nervous system is constantly in that fight or flight mode, then you can't think straight and people can see it. You know, people can kind of really feel that panic. You can't listen, you can't, you can't do any of that stuff. So, you know, uh, all of the stuff that I talk about on my course all starts with being calm and being able to regulate your nervous system and being able to just kind of get yourself in a, you know, activate your parasympathetic nervous system, which is a real thing by the way. Make sure that your body is, is calm, which will calm your mind, which will enable you to think straight, make rational decisions, listen, be confident, come across as somebody with, you know, authority and influence. And if you're not able to, you know, to regulate your nervous system, then it's incredibly difficult to do. Any of the stuff that, that we've talked about today.

Speaker B: Is this similar to mindfulness?

Speaker A: Mindfulness is more about that Your thoughts are not you. So, you know those little gremlins in your brain going, you can't do that. What do you think you're doing? That's where mindfulness can really help you. It can kind of let you realize that little voice in your head is not real. I've got little voice in my head who tells me all sorts of things. I call her Beryl. She's very annoying. But, you know, mindfulness allows me to, you know, just kind of put Beryl to one side and say, not now. Thank you very much, I'm busy. You can come back and irritate me later. Whereas the breath work, the breathing is much more about physically calming your body, getting yourself out of fight or flight mode, realizing that, you know, going into a meeting with a senior executive is different from fighting a bear. Your life is not at risk and just being able to kind of act with authority.

Speaker B: I know some. Some CEOs, some founders of companies who go into big meetings. They'll sit out in the car or wherever it is, and they'll do five minutes of meditation, and they'll just calm the body, calm the mind. Probably doing some breath work as part of that.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Okay. Fantastic conversation. Really appreciated all your insights there. How do people find you, Vanessa, if they want to talk to you more?

Speaker A: So I'm on LinkedIn. Vanessa Porter. Or, uh, my website is. Will be active any minute now, so that will be www.beelinecommunications.com. it's been really great talking to you, Fergal. Thank you.

Speaker B: Same here. Enjoyed it. All the best.