The Startup Junto #4: Snapt

Speaker A: Welcome to Startup Junto. A uh, podcast by your host the Finance Ghost and the venturing vagabond who writes fantastic startup themed articles for the Finance ghost dot com. Both of us are fascinated by startups and how businesses grow. Inspired by the Club for Mutual Improvement of the same name that was put together by Benjamin Franklin in the 1700s. In Startup Junto, we hope to pick the brains of players in the South African startup and venture capital arenas in the process. We just want to learn. You do as well, which is why you are listening. Welcome to Startup Junto.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Startup Junto. Tonight we've got a very special guest. Uh, not only is this our first VC backed company, our first global company that's expanded into the US and also a company that's been included in the Gartner report. Luckily for our guests, this is not our first show. This is the fourth Startup Junto and. And so without further ado, I'd like to welcome CCO and co founder of Snap to the show Doug. Welcome to the show.

Speaker C: Thanks guys. Great to be here.

Speaker D: Uh, yeah, it's good to be here. Very high above Cape Town. These are uh, very groovy offices.

Speaker C: Very cool offices.

Speaker D: We were just admiring the, I suppose the ceiling, for want of a better word. It's not really though because it's all made of concrete. But when it was built many, many moons ago, the builders used newspaper as part of it. Under the shutters I think you said. And it's so cool because a lot of it is still stuck to the roof. So I just know there's an advert for typewriters and it's quite amazing to sit here in such a techy company as you guys are. And then there's ads for typewriters on the roof. It's just, it's really brilliant.

Speaker C: We actually have uh, a thing of uh, collecting artifacts in our business. So like making little short videos or uh, keeping I don't know, first emails that we may have sent about a particular topic or something.

Speaker B: Your old couches here in the back.

Speaker C: My old couches from, from my house.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Weather beaten and uh. So yeah, we really liked our architect. Uh, I think it's called a soffit but our architect told us just keep it exposed. And I'm really glad we did.

Speaker D: That's really cool. I'll remember that for next time I have a horrible DIY project. I'll just tell Mrs. Ghost that it's a soffit and it's an exposed, it's an exposed mess. But here it really works. It's certainly not a mess. It's brilliant. So, yeah, thanks for. Thanks for hosting us. Very, very, very cool to be here.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, so we only started the podcast about two months ago, and at that point in time, we didn't really have a lot of knowledge about Snap. And so it was only at a social gathering recently when I started speaking to one of your employees, and she was telling me about the job that she's doing. She was saying that she's enjoying it. That's free publicity, by the way.

Speaker C: And are you sure she works for us, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, she opened the gates tonight,

Speaker D: so, uh, I mean, dragged you away from home to come and speak to us at this, uh, this funny hour.

Speaker B: Yeah, so at the, at that event, I started getting fascinated about the business. Uh, I became pretty unsocial. Spent most of the evening researching the company, read a little bit about your backstory, and then, I mean, much to the dismay of my wife, but I knew we wanted to interview you. So, uh, we. We are very, very, uh, excited to have you here.

Speaker D: So, something I think we wanted to ask you about, and it's a great marketing tool for you guys. It's just one of those things. I mean, when these are one. When this is one of your first clients, it kind of just sets you up forever to tell the story. But I'm going to ask you to tell the story. NASA was one of your first clients. I don't think names get any bigger than that in terms of giving a general feeling that smart people are buying your product.

Speaker C: So, uh, it's crazy.

Speaker B: That's probably why it takes about 20 minutes to check into the office.

Speaker D: Just about. This is the most secure building I've ever been in. In Cape Town, you almost have to give a urine sample when you come in. It's quite aggressive. How did the NASA thing happen? It's just such a great, great story. Curious as to the quick background of that.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's interesting. Um, so I've always said that, uh, our buyer has to be super motivated and super, um, enabled and empowered. Right? So they have to have a problem that they really want to solve. Uh, this is initially. Right. We had no brand, we had no marketing spend. Like, we might have had a couple of posts on Reddit or something like, hey, we've just launched this check it out kind of thing. So how they found us, I have no idea. Like, zero idea. And they were our third customer.

Speaker D: How does that phone call come through? Do they email you? Like, hi, it's NASA. You must have assumed it was like a 419 scam and you were going to send your banking details out and never see your money again.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, please, if you can just send me, uh, $5,000 now, I'll return you, uh, the Mars Rover.

Speaker D: Exactly.

Speaker C: Um, so we. Yeah, so we. I got a call from, from Dave, and he'd received this inbound email just, you know, from some guy at NASA. And, uh, he'd had like a conversation with a guy, and the guy had said to him, like, look, you know, we're a state agency in the US and we have this kind of like, local procurement policy. So we prefer local unless there is a very specific kind of thing, uh, that we can't find locally and then we allow to go, um, outside of our borders. So please, you know, give us your, like, whatever it was like L19 form or something, you know, from our, like, local. We didn't have local entity.

Speaker D: So Dave was like, cool, fresh out of L19 forms here.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. So Dave was like, uh, okay, dude. So, like, you know, how quick can we spin this up? You know, and. And I, I wasn't even full time or anything, so I was like, I don't know. I have no idea how to even begin doing this. So he goes back and he's like, okay, well, we're, yeah, we're out of those. Can we do something else? The guy does like a whole motivation up the chain, writes his business case and everything. Um, and maybe like two, three weeks go by and. And then he's like, okay, cool, uh, I've got permission. We can do this. Amazing. And, uh, so then he asks for the invoice and we'd like, put a zero, like an extra. I don't know if I should say this. We put like an extra zero on the invoice because it just seemed too little. You know, it was like $300 or something. We made it like $3,000. And the guy was like, are you serious? Is it just $3,000? I'm just gonna. I could have put this on my credit card. I spend more on, like, Friday drinks. Um, so, yeah, so that's our story with NASA.

Speaker D: That is so great, honestly.

Speaker C: Yeah, it was. I mean, it's an amazing story. And they used it for, like, a pretty hardcore project, as I understand as well. Pretty cool.

Speaker D: That's amazing. That's so surreal. And yeah, you probably could have put a few more zeros because we are such a rounding error on an American procurement spend.

Speaker C: It's just rotten could have put two zeros. Like an additional two zeros can made it $300,000.

Speaker D: Absolutely. Although I tell you what, I think the marketing value that you've gotten out of it for the rest of time is probably added a zero.

Speaker C: It's a great story. Yeah, it's an awesome story. And we've got some other really awesome uh, Halo clients as well. Some I can, some I can't talk about.

Speaker D: Yeah, for sure. Very, very, very cool.

Speaker B: Can you tell us a little bit about your journey and how you came to end up at Snap?

Speaker C: I was one of the founding partners of a local venture capital fund. One of the. So as partners you kind of split off and you, you kind of take lead on different investments and um, came across uh, Dave and snapped and at that stage was pre product, phenomenally smart guy and uh, pretty cool idea. Uh, so some of the things that you look at when you're in VC is you're looking at the product, the team and the addressable market. And uh, so this particular product, the promise of it was that there was this big market with some really old school players and they'd uh, been delivering the solution via hardware. We call it tin. Yeah, up until that stage, you know, it had been kind of pretty fat and happy for them. And we saw an opportunity to come in and you know, grow at high velocity and really scale with a, uh, software only solution. And I think we were the first software only, um, application delivery controller, uh, anywhere globally. Anyway, so long story short, he was a sole founder, also the sole employee. My kind of inclination is it's very hard to do this alone. And so I spent a bit more time with him anyway and uh, so his name's Dave by the way. You know, he's just an incredible guy and we've become really good friends and it was really good chemistry. And at the same time I think my kind of M.O. was always getting really stuck into the business. So in VC you call that sort of like more like an operator type model. And uh, so I just got more and more involved and I've got other things going on as well, um, some of the little projects. But this was the one that kind of really captured my imagination and we were figuring out pricing and structuring and how we're going to position our products in the market, how the hell we're going to uh, go into the US and things like that and got more and more captivating. And one day I just had to make a call. And so the call was between kind of like sitting in the bleachers or being on the field, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, and, uh, I figured that maybe I belong on the field, at least for this chapter. So, um, that's kind of my journey started there. Getting more and more and more involved, hiring the first employees and heading up the whole commercial side of the business. Business, um, kind of like launching these offices and things like that.

Speaker B: And what was it about Dave that was so special? Because obviously, I mean, as a vc, you have seen many different entrepreneurs, you had. Had invested into so many different companies. Was there something particular that stood out about.

Speaker D: About Dave?

Speaker C: Um, yeah, I mean, there's. There are a lot of things, um, I think, you know, everyone is unique that we end up investing in. And people talk about like, are you looking for coachability? Are you looking for someone who is, you know, they're really, really smart, they know when to push back, but they also listen and things like that. And Dave obviously fulfilled all of those kind of criteria, but slightly below the sort of the. The surface, I'd say is there's a, uh, There's a guy with, uh, incredible kind of curiosity and he prepares so well, uh, for anything that he, he does that he takes seriously and he sets incredibly high standards. And we got, we get on very, very well. Um, so we got on from very kind of beginning, I suppose. Uh, if there's any advice for people looking at, ah, forming like a founder partnership, the main thing is we have, uh, aligned values, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And so I've got this guy who I trust implicitly. He's really, really smart. I enjoy working with him. He's insightful. And so, yeah, those kind of things very much fulfill my thesis, you know, and by the way, build those relationships slowly. Don't just kind of, so to speak, jump into bed, uh, and get going.

Speaker B: You know, that's an interesting point because I saw, um, Y Combinator now on a couple of occasions, they've actually forced single founders to partner up with a co founder before they can join the batch. Which then from that point of view, that's not a natural relationship, is it?

Speaker C: Well, it's something that I struggled with, uh, from the very, like the very beginning of my working career. Is, uh, you know, some people can do that and that's fine, that's good for them. But I had to build like an alternate thesis because it's not the way I work.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And so my alternate thesis, which is not binary, it doesn't mean that my way is the only way where it's superior. It's just my way but you know, what works for me, and I think it just makes a lot of sense, and there's a lot of, like, sort of like parallel examples and data that would. That would make. That would kind of prove it out as well. But basically, just take your time, get, um, to know people. And, you know, I prefer to build deep relationships of. Of high value rather than, like, very broad, shallow relationships. I would guess that a lot of those Y Combinator partnerships could fall aside, fall away, and then probably, uh, there's two other things that are happening there. One is, uh, quite a lot of kind of like, matchmaking, making sure that sort of the psychographic stuff all fits and all that. And then secondly is agreements, making sure that there's complete alignment, that they each know, each partner knows what they need to bring and what their expectations are of the future. And then they put in vesting and all sorts of stuff like that to make sure that if one of them does kind of leave or their horizons change or they realize it's not what they wanted, you know, that they don't take all the value with them and stuff. So it probably put a lot of, like, belts and braces there.

Speaker D: I think one of the best things you can do in your career, in your life, is work with just talented people, which isn't that easy to do, right? Because a lot of corporates, you know, there's kind of a talent pool, a really talented pool, and it's quite spread, and you don't necessarily get to work with those people that easily. But I think in startup world, and, I mean, that's how the vagabond and I met was working for, uh, essentially a boutique investment bank. And we formed a really good relationship, which also took time, as you say, not because I didn't like him straight away, but just because, you know, it's cool to just build these things over time. You just get to know each other more and you work together and you. Your values are aligned. Our skills are actually very different, to be honest, which works really well. And we haven't built anything together yet. I mean, we collaborate on this podcast, but I say yet. They're very strong, because I have no doubt that one day there will be. There will be something. And it's cool that you formed a similar kind of relationship, you know, with him. He's not in South Africa anymore, is he? He's not based overseas.

Speaker C: No, he's still here.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah, he's based in Johannesburg. Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker D: Shame, shame. No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Uh, that's actually quite interesting because Cape Town is the home of startups, right? Um, not so much actually. In your view?

Speaker C: No, not really. It's kind of like San Francisco, New York in the U.S. you know, just very different flavors. But I think both have great startup cultures.

Speaker D: Yeah, no, that's absolutely true.

Speaker C: And I kind of feel like, uh, if anything, you know, the one thing that South Africa needs to get right is collaboration. You know, I think Joburg has a really awesome vibe. I love going there and Dave and I talk a lot of, uh, a lot of swear on here. A lot of, you know, we talk a lot of smack about, uh, Joburg in Cape Town. Um, but ultimately, you know, just different flavors. What's really cool about Cape Town, out of interest, you guys probably know this. There's a huge amount of similarities with, you know, like the Valley. There's a couple of really good universities here. The climate is incredible. People fundamentally want to live here.

Speaker B: A creative class.

Speaker C: There's a creative class. Yeah, I was going to say a moneyed class. You know, there's that kind of like second, third generation wealth and all those kinds of things. I kind of suspect that, uh, with COVID you're going to get a more kind of like mobile workforce. More people from the north wanting to live. And when I say north, I mean like beyond our borders, wanting to live on roughly the same time zone, but not necessarily in the same place. Um, so I think Cape Town will be quite a big beneficiary. But Joburg's awesome.

Speaker D: It's just such a rad place beyond our borders. You mean anything further than Durbanville? Basically, for the average Capetonian.

Speaker C: Beyond the curtain.

Speaker D: Exactly. So just getting back to business, I mean, it's a very tech focused company and for those who understand tech, they'll understand what you do. And for those who don't understand tech, their eyes might glaze over a little bit and it gets kind of put in this bucket of oh my goodness, what is that? So it would be interesting to hear from you. Firstly, as though I'm five years old, which is probably where my technology is, um, how would you tell me what Snapt does? And then after that, assuming I'm kind of the CFO of a big company about to sign it off, getting briefed by the CTO or whatever example we can think of, then what does Snapt do? Just so that listens of our podcast with various levels of tech can both understand what's going on?

Speaker C: Uh, yeah, sure. So for a five year old, um, I suppose you're Playing um, Minecraft and Ninjago and, and uh, your mom's drawing money from the ATM and buying your stuff at the shops and all that sort of stuff. And all of that runs off the backbone of applications, right? Um, and all of those applications need to be delivered. What we do is we make sure that that delivery of those applications is made in as highly optimized way as possible and that they're completely secure as well. I think like, you know, when you're playing games and things like that, you want to make sure that maybe not

Speaker D: for the 5 year old, very advanced

Speaker C: 5 year old, very advanced 5year old,

Speaker D: but, but for smartest 5 year old

Speaker C: in the class, basically your one, your 1 year old. Um, but, but basically you know, you want to make sure that like, you know, there's no latency and things like that. And yeah, so that's what we do. Um, and then talking to kind of like the cfo, it's really interesting actually. It gets, it kind of uh, on the surface of it is kind of like what is application delivery controllers, but it's actually super, super interesting. So you have this massive explosion of data, massive explosion of things like IoT and all these kinds of things like that. And you've got distributed workforces and you've got um, this continuing rise of for example E commerce and digital consumption of goods and services. Basically, um, what you want to do is you want to try to make sure that those applications, applications are as consumable as possible. So if that means, you know, putting them as close to um, the consumer as possible, making sure that the load speeds are really fast and things like that, and then set that against two other paradigms. One is trust. If you paint a picture in your mind of how the graph of data and endpoints and all of that has exploded and how everyone's going digital, so too are malicious actors, right? And um, they're going for your data and they're going for all, you know, these kind of like digital assets that, that companies hold, um, particularly about their IP or their customers, whatever. And if you are breached, that's a massive problem, right? And so we do a lot of security around that. And then the second part of that is companies are having to defend against uh, newcomers, people like us in a way, you know, so you have banking guys come from banking and suddenly there's like a zero fee bank all of a sudden. And then suddenly there's like a digital only bank all of a sudden. And then there's like this niche insurer that only does like One thing, but they do it super, super well. Um, and these legacy players, they have teams of like a thousand um, personnel in their IT departments but they can't launch a new app because they have to provision services from central procurement and all sorts of stuff. And so they not agile. So you know the, the kind of the modern paradigm is you want to be very secure, you want to make sure that your business is massively enabled, runs on applications, um, and that you can be agile. And so that's what we do.

Speaker D: Something I want to touch on there actually is uh, the point around being agile and big corporates and big teams. Something that's been a huge reality in the last year has been retrenchments at big companies. I mean I've seen it with my own eyes. It's a horrible thing to watch. And what's even more horrible is you see people who have been in Those companies for 10, 15, 20 years, they've gotten really comfortable. I think you used the words earlier fat and happy which I thought was quite funny. Ah, you know, in the context of the company. But it's that, it's that getting into a comfort zone where you've kind of stopped growing, you can do your job. That just doesn't work in this world anymore, does it? I mean you can't really get to that place because things are changing so quickly. There's disruptors with teams of 10 or 15 very talented people who can suddenly come and replace a thousand people sitting in a corporate. And a lot of what they do and, and it's, it's, it's interesting in terms of how people craft their careers. You know, if you can get into a startup or you can work in a smaller agile business. I just feel like you give yourself a better shot at becoming an asset long term as opposed to going and taking a uh, cushy, really big corporate role and just managing people. It's.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I mean I've got a great story on that but you know, beginning of COVID so my, my side hustle is um, uh in fact it's not a side hustle, it's a bit of a passion but uh, is a wine, uh, education and distribution company. You know we went overnight from doing super, super well many customers across across the continent uh, to all out ban on travel on you know tourism was like in the, you know, in the toilet. And I met this friend of mine, he's a um, hedge ah, fund manager. So, so bleak. And I said man, whatever you do, just don't do this entrepreneur thing. Uh, and he was kind of weird like talking about it and laughing about it and kind of crying in my soup about it as well. But, um, you know, two weeks later he'd just been retrenched, um, and, and he was like, he now kind of, he works with us, but uh, and is doing fundamentally different things to what he was doing. He had to retool reskill. Luckily for him, he's, he's super smart and, and add, you know, has like a very pliable mind and quickly adapts and things. But yeah, the guys that I worry about are the, the guys who've been doing like sales, uh, via, you know, the bar and the golf course and things like that. You know, that that's changing and I can see that changing in the U.S. you know, you talk about like high velocity sales and things like that. It still has to catch up here. There are a lot of changes that's still, you know, it's so, you know, that, that kind of thing, that kind of, those paradigms, uh, are things that if I were in corporate, I'd be really worried about, you know, and automation again, back to banking, you know, like traders, FX traders, things like that, uh, just getting hammered, um, by automation. They don't even realize it, but, but their jobs are being eaten away from the inside out, you know, so it's, it's a scary place. I agree. I wouldn't want to be anywhere else but a startup, so. Pretty tough though.

Speaker D: Yeah, it is. I mean, my motivation to start the Finance Ghost was when I was in, uh, my corporate day job and a whole lot of people were getting retrenched and I just thought, sheesh, baby Ghost is about to arrive. I don't want to be going home and telling my wife that I got retrenched and now I don't know what to do. So I thought, no, no, no, no, no. If it's that easy to let people go, then I will start the side hustle and see where it takes me in. The last year has just been the most amazing ride with it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So I have a theory and I call it destiny control. But you, you just want to take control of your own destiny, man. Like you don't want. My first kind of real gig was in a corporate. It was my last one after about sort of 24 months or so. It was the last time I still remember my employee number and stuff like that. And they just see you as an asset, you know. So, um, yeah, much better to work in a startup. It is volatile, but, you know, your average tenure Ship at a corporate is probably a few years anyway if you're, if you're any good.

Speaker D: Yeah, that's true. There's a guy I do some work with and he sponsors my ghost mail mailer and he said to me, happiness is when you control your diary. And it's such a great definition. I don't know if anyone ever gets to that point because your clients and everyone else is always going to get a piece of the action. But it feels like it's a good goal.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's the dream.

Speaker D: Something I want to ask you just while we sit here in your office looking at the number of chairs and everything. I mean as a startup grows and obviously you guys are very tech focused, business clearly sort of split between people who are doing a very technical job that that is in line with what you guys offer versus kind of marketing people, legal people. I'm just curious, at what point do you get to that point where you start to layer on what would traditionally be the support services?

Speaker C: Uh, yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, um, so we're product first, we'll always be product first, but we also kind of like this. There's all this other stuff that needs to make sure the machinery happens and keeps going. Um, I'd say snapshot, we're probably about 60% tech, maybe a bit more. And it's kind of hard to tell as well because the line blurs. Like a really good sales guy is pretty technical and a um, really good marketer, uh, is pretty technical too. But like pure tech players, maybe like 60% I'd say.

Speaker D: Interesting. Okay, cool. So something as a non tech person that I've picked up and also was starting a business and it's a wonderful world we now live in where whatever you need to do as a small business owner, chances are there's an online cloud based solution for it that costs you a small subscription of some of some kind and you're a for away. It's a beautiful time to be an entrepreneur. It's really amazing. And something I really enjoy about a lot of those products and those platforms is they do comparisons on their websites. So I'll give you our podcast hosting solution as an example. So we host with Costos and the reason I chose them is because they also allow for a private show that people can subscribe to and maybe we'll do that one day, maybe we won't. But it's a nice to have and I think we might get to that at some point. Uh, specifically with Magic Markets, which is one of the other podcasts that I do. So they had a whole page on their site dedicated to them versus Buzzsprout them versus all the others. And it's this very feature based way of competing, which I'm sure is quite similar in your world. And I think that's what I wanted to ask you I guess is in the world of tech it is all about features. Right. And it's about how to differentiate yourself from the competition. And do you think that businesses outside of the tech world are doing that enough or do they kind of just hope that the marketing is enough or hope that people find them without necessarily their solution being why people are picking up the phone?

Speaker C: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean that's such a good question to be honest. Uh, and there's so many like nuances to my version of the answer. Um, so yeah, if you're competing like only on features like you know, just straight up, you know, shootout, it can be in some instances it can be like a race toward commoditization, you know, um, you kind of, there's, there's still a lot of like nuance and a lot of subtlety around a lot of the marketing that happens, you know, storytelling, um, and things like that. So you kind of like you building a narrative, you know. So like our narrative is that you know, when we launched, um, there was just these like massive monolithic solutions and it was all about basically just ripping your customers over, provisioning. Totally not scalable. It's massively complex to run and manage and the world kind of needed a lightweight modern solution. Right. So within that there's use cases, let's call use cases rather than features. Right. Um, and, and so there's some areas where we'll be same and this is kind of saying same same but better. So we're the same in these regards. Yeah, sure. But we're better in this use case. We're better in that way. And you really try to find, carve out these kind of segments, niches where you're just way, way, way better um, than anyone else. So like for example, we're way better at scaling um, uh, intelligently. In fact we've got a global patent on that. So. Yeah. So uh, what I think, uh, when you extrapolate it to other companies, I think you really want to think about that storytelling. You uh, want to really, in telling the story, you want to really understand your buyer, uh, and the story that they're going to pick up as well. They have to have a real need in that area and then you need to be able to tell it authentically. Um, which means that you need to be able to follow up on what you're saying. So I think if you're able to really solve very specific use cases and demonstrate and articulate it in a very, like, crisp, concise way, that's. That's the dream. So, yeah, that would be my advice for. For all companies, tech or not.

Speaker D: And then you got to market to those use cases. That's such a great answer. Same, same, but better. There's an entire strategic framework that you can build around that. So for this podcast hosting platform that we use, they do podcast hosting, which is really the same as everyone else, but they're better for private podcasting. Yeah. You know, and that's their game. Or they're way better actually on that, you know, So I guess if you're aiming for the betas and the way betters and you're making those use cases fit to your target market, then you're

Speaker C: off, you know, and there's a cool kind of like, bootstrapping strategy as well around that where, um, let's say you're starting out and you want to figure out, like, your customer journey on your website. Well, you could do like 10,000 iterations and like, ab. Test everything and take 10 years to get there. Or you could look at the very best version of a company that's done that and copy them, you know, and then iterate and improve, like, the last 2 or 3%, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And so in that way, you're starting at parity with them, uh, and then you're just iterating and improving on the margins. Those kind of like those areas where you believe you're different and better, et cetera. Um, so that's just like, maybe like a tangential, derivative version of the same kind of theory.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's almost like the Steve Jobs. Uh, a real artist steals, basically.

Speaker C: It's absolutely 100%. That's exactly right. A good artist creates like a real artist is a thief. Yeah. And you got to say, like, okay, cool, this works really, really well. Um, you have to know what greatness looks like.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: You know, you have to say, okay, cool, this is great. This is really good. And I'm going to use it. And.

Speaker D: But.

Speaker C: But this is where I can optimize and improve and that, like 1 or 2%, it's not linear. It's where all the magic is. It's where all the difference is.

Speaker B: And you need to still tell that story by yourself.

Speaker C: So. Yeah, so your story is your story. This is like, much more sort of like, functional type of stuff. Yeah, very cool.

Speaker D: Yeah. I used an example in Ghostmail a few weeks ago. Like, if there's a whole line of people waiting to buy pancakes and you can open a little food store next to the pancake store, you know, going with the, uh, I don't know, kale and broccoli shakes is probably not the answer because those people want pancakes. So go with donuts and just stick with what they were looking for. Just make it slightly better. It's a similar, It's a similar idea, you know, going pretty similar. Yeah. There's a proven use case here. See that as a benefit and then find a way to compete slightly differently.

Speaker C: Okay. These guys want pancakes, but the queue's too long. I'm going to have, like, a super efficient pancake store.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Or whatever it might be, you know.

Speaker D: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Very cool. Thank you.

Speaker B: Okay, Doug, you guys have been going now for around 10 years. You've rolled out two really successful products and you've expanded into the US but obviously being an ambitious company, A, uh, company that's growing. What are the key things that you're focusing on currently? And are there any new initiatives that you're working on, um, that you can maybe potentially expand on?

Speaker C: Uh, yeah, so we are. Yes. We've expanded into the U.S. uh, and pretty much global now. We're in 60 countries. And, uh, I think that our solution has gained pretty good traction. Our growth is sort of like growth upon growth now, which is a fantastic position to be in. There's still so many solutions that we're seeking for the various problems that we have. What I really want to do now is just focus a lot more on, um, building out our brand. It's one of the big areas. And then obviously, like, from a product perspective, we have a technology platform that has a lot more application, a significant amount more. Um, so, like, vertical. Verticalization that we can do from a product perspective. There's like a really cool kind of like, Iot play that we could do as well. Um, yeah, there's, there's loads of legs on the product front and we want to, we want to go deeper there. I think we're only like 25% where we want to be even, and we've got, like, I think, fantastic foundations there. And. Yeah, so it's really just about, like, kind of taking the foundations that we sweated really hard to build, building on top of them and building something really awesome.

Speaker B: In a perfect world, what does Snap look like in 2030?

Speaker C: Yeah, ah, that's a really tough question. The pace of technology is changing so fast. So like the boring answer might be, um, you know, that we are delivering maybe 20% of the world's traffic, I think, uh, and securing it as well. But I think we're going to go very deep on the security front as well. We're going to go deeper and deeper. We've launched something called um, threat sense. Just looking at where like the malicious IPs are coming from. And you know, I'm looking to build that into your security, um, posture. If you just look at the curve, if you just look at how incredible the growth of ah, the world of data is, the ska, the Square Kilometer Array, I don't know, it like doubled the amount of data South Africa was producing like virtually overnight, you know, something like that. And it's just happening faster and faster and faster. Just fascinated to know what happens with like quantum computing. And people are talking about like the actual network becoming much, much, much more intelligent. That's where we are. Yeah. So look, I think we're going to be a big part of delivering and securing the applications of the future. We really want to own a very big portion of that globally and obviously we have pretty sexy, pretty exciting product roadmap. Uh, 10 years is a long time

Speaker D: just talking about the kind of the companies of tomorrow and the jobs of tomorrow and you know, with data and everything else, it feels like there are only a few different types of things you kind of want to be doing one day. And that's either creating the stuff that travels to people or finding a way to deliver it and make it more secure or being someone who funds either one of those activities. I mean that kind of feels like a way to future proof. And this is not with relation to snap, this is relation to anyone who's thinking of what to do with their lives. You know, if you can, if you can do one of those things and get one of those skill sets, it feels like you've got a reasonable chance of having uh, a decent home in the next 10 to 15 years. Because I think the pace of growth, people don't think about it in terms of their career choices. They forget that the first iPhone was launched in only 2007. It's only 14 years that the smartphone has changed our lives. What is the next 10 to 15 years old?

Speaker C: It's incredible.

Speaker D: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker C: I mean back to, I guess like snapped in the original question. For the first time ever, I think that there's like a bionic heart that's been Approved, um, for use. Applications are running the ventilators that are keeping people with COVID alive. You know, we live in a world that is so connected, so much data, and it's so complex, and it's becoming so much more complex, both the way that it's delivered and optimized and things like that, as well as the way it's secured. So it is super interesting. And I do think that it is more and more something that is just incredibly important, part of the future, I guess, landscape of work. At the same time, you know, in a world where everything's automated, you know, there still needs to be magic and beauty and, you know, kids that. Or young people that pursue, like, arts and things like that. Maybe that's also future proof.

Speaker D: You know, I agree, 100% agree. I think the world of creators is looking exciting.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I suppose that's what you were talking about when you were saying, like, you're either, you know, creating the content or you're kind of delivering it, or you're consuming it or something like that.

Speaker D: That's exactly it. Yeah, that's. That's a very interesting and exciting space. Um, the thing that I would like to ask you is, you know, around the. Around the process of scaling up, I mean, you guys have scaled really well. You know, you are a truly global company. You've built something that by all accounts would normally have been built, I guess, in the Valley, and you've built it in South Africa, which is really inspiring because for all the South Africa bashers out there who I personally find quite annoying, because I think it's possible. I literally wrote about it this morning and M. Vagabond, you messaged me about it. Even it's possible to believe about South Africa that, one, there's a worrying trajectory and two, there's still a lot of opportunity here. You can believe both those things, and I think you guys are living proof that that is the case. So, uh, I'm just curious. Building this thing out of South Africa, what have been kind of the biggest challenges you faced while scaling the business? And obviously, if you can link that to any advice for other startups who may be listening to this on ramping up, just the one or two key things that you feel you learned the hard way?

Speaker C: Well, I learned a lot of things the hard way. Um, and, uh, it would be my great privilege to be able to help people kind of straighten the line and get there a bit faster. Some of the things that were struggles for us, they more often change. It depends on where you are the beginning and starting out, you're thinking, where should I be based? One of the questions kind of thing. We're trying to build a model that is kind of like uniquely South African. Israel is a good place to look at as a kind of like a, like maybe a bit of a benchmark. Uh, so some of the benefits that we have is we've got a, like a great diaspora globally. I find that a lot of the diaspora is like pretty receptive and wanting to help out and things like that, which is great. And uh, and I think it's getting better, you know, second time entrepreneurs who've made it, you know, on a global level and things like that, kind of paying back to the community, which is great. So the first lesson is definitely network. It's got to be network. Then the second thing is really understand what the benefits are of being in South Africa. Um, you know, lower cost base, very kind of like sincere, earnest type of culture where you know, we may be not the best ledgers on the cricket fields compared to the Australians or whatever. We're not the best marketers compared to the Americans. We kind of very much say what we mean and do what we say. And those are good things. Play to those strengths, uh, and like work ethic and things like that. And then try to infuse and transfuse by networking and via learning and via podcasts like this one. And there's some incredible podcasts out there. Just try learn. Because your job as a, uh, as a, as a founder is, is really to like learn fast and that's kind of like your job, you know, like learn fast and implement.

Speaker D: That's awesome. I really enjoy that. As an ex colleague used to say, there's a fine line between networking and not working and uh, mainly in the context of Fridays around the table tennis table. But uh, yeah, that is great advice.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think scaling is one thing, but also fundraising is another. And SNAP was quite fortunate to have raised VC funding in South Africa at such an early stage. It's probably only a handful of companies in South Africa that successfully raised VC funding. So what would you say is probably the biggest mistakes that startups make when they go out to raise funds from the likes of a 4Di knife capital and all these various different VCs, specifically in South Africa.

Speaker C: Yeah, so that's an interesting question. Uh, so assuming you've got all the right building blocks to be fundable, maybe one of the mistakes is not knowing your audience as well as maybe you could. That's something that I've seen quite a lot being maybe like a bit myopic and like parochial and like small minded can, can also be an issue. Yeah, not running a good process. You know, like, let's say you've got like five potential funders. And by the way, I've succeeded at this and also failed at it in the past. But it's kind of, you know, they've, they've all got their own pressures and their own kind of lives, you know, careers and work that they're dealing with and competing pressures. And you kind of have to find a way to manage everyone through the same process. Otherwise you got one party that's ready to go and another one that's kind of just figuring out who you are and they're at fundamentally different places and kind of like fundraising pipeline. Your fundraising is kind of like a sales pipeline. You put your candidates at the top and then you look to graduate them down until close. So that's something that I think that people could generally do a lot better. The main thing though, if you're in the sort of the fortunate position to have, you know, options is don't take any, any money for the sake of money. You'll hear this a million times. Yeah, everyone will say it, right? And if it's a truism, it's probably true. You know, I've seen, not at snapped, but I've seen like really horrendous boards, misalignment of like, um, you know, incentives and objectives and politics and, and the business just gets absolutely sidelined and crushed as a result. So, uh, I used to, and I can say this now because I'm, uh, a founder, but like, founders are like cockroaches. We'll find a way to survive. You know, we'll survive, we'll survive without money. What, what will kill us is when you've given away your equity and you got a bunch of not greater parts. You got to have the right, you got to have, and your board must, must complement your, your own shortcomings and skill sets, uh, and must also work well with each other. You know, so you bring on one shareholder, you want to make sure that your other shareholder and that shareholder kind of like see eye to eye and more or less get each other. And, and you talk about culture inside of a business, culture at a, at a, at a boardroom level is also extremely important. So I think that um, you know, assuming you have the luxury of getting the money, you really want to make sure that the guys that you're getting the money from really do understand. You do value, you do kind of get. You are of the same kind of, like, ethical makeup are complementary to your business and to you as the, as the jockey and to one another.

Speaker D: Yeah, that's tremendously good advice. And, uh, I think we've seen it as well in our previous advisory lives. People just take money for the sake of it. They either don't know what to do with it or they take it from the wrong people. And the investment bankers don't care too much about whether or not you get on. Once the fee has been paid, you know, they're there to introduce you to the parties. And the founder needs to decide, decide whether or not that's going to be a good fit and whether or not the money makes sense. I've had a few people in the last year say to me, oh, can we invest in the finance? Goes like, well, no, because number one, I'm happy to do it myself right now. And number two, I actually don't know what I would do with the money because I don't have any costs. I'm just enjoying growing this thing and seeing where it goes. So I think, yeah, a lot of founders, they don't think like that.

Speaker C: I've got a very, very good friend and, uh, he has a great business. He had an opportunity to bring on investors, and I said, come on man, you got to do it. And I was advising him and everything, he said, doug, stop. I'm doing this my own way. I'm doing it differently. And it took him longer, but he has full destiny, control and, uh, he's built something truly beautiful now. I took a different path. We, we took on, um, we took on some funders, etc, and I have a different benefit from that. You know, I, I have people on my board that I can call and they can be tough and they can give me, know, very, like, candid, sort of undressed opinions of, you know, what I'm saying or what I'm thinking or. But it's always, you know, company first and all these kinds of things. And I as a person have grown as a result. So, uh, there's no one answer, but, uh, just consider that very, very carefully. Bad money is really bad.

Speaker B: That's great advice.

Speaker D: Candid answers are the best thing about getting out of corporate, I would think. And, uh, certainly less politics and all that kind of thing. And just to finish up on the fundraising point and then a few more questions and I think we're out of time. Is, um, you know, in South Africa, there seems to be some VC funding available and Then what we don't have is a nasdaq. We don't have a situation where companies are going to market, achieving solid IPOs. Uh, the last IPO of any size on the JSE that I can really remember is probably diskim. Can't think of anything that's been that big in the last two, three years. I think diskim was probably. Yeah, it must be about three or three or so years now. You know, Console Glass tried and went away. There was no interest. The IPO market in South Africa is just completely dead now and there's just nothing coming to the jac. So stuff is changing hands, but it's doing it away from the public market. And I guess maybe it's an unfair question, but if there was to be a big offer for Snapt one day, do you think it's going to come from South Africa? Do you think it's going to come from a JSE company or do you think it's almost certainly coming from overseas?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think it'll probably come from overseas. There's been interest. Um, and yeah, it's just like it's a completely different environment there. Uh, we could have like a whole discussion about it. But basically, if you look at the multiples that these companies are trading at and the sizes that they've achieved themselves, there are very few companies in South Africa that are remotely like that. And there's a real culture in the US of these kinds of transactions, these sort of trade acquisition type transactions. And yeah, I guess the short answer is, um, most likely the yes.

Speaker D: Yeah, understandably, unless Naspas and process keep selling 10 cents and that they've got some bucks to buy.

Speaker C: No, exactly.

Speaker D: They can stop wasting their money on food delivery companies and actually buy stuff that makes money. I still. Yeah, so that's a topic for another day given that we're running quite short on time and I think, you know, maybe. Let's get to the quickfire questions. So this is something we do at the end of each junto discussion. Okay, five questions, quick answers, quick questions. Favorite book and why?

Speaker C: Um, Catcher in the Rye and because of when I read it.

Speaker B: Okay, the next one's really interesting based on the conversation that we just had. But most important characteristic for a startup board member.

Speaker C: Integrity.

Speaker B: And then most important characteristic for a startup, uh, entrepreneur.

Speaker C: Uh, determination for sure.

Speaker D: Your favorite app on your phone.

Speaker C: Maybe Spotify.

Speaker D: I knew it. I was, I was literally thinking to myself, I got fiber. Literally. This last week is very embarrassing that we only just had fiber. Putting our complex. And I feel like I've just joined the technology age, you know, and I can now sit and just stream all day while I work. It's terribly embarrassing. My LTE contract was not doing it for me anymore. Um, so that was what I learned about myself as well during lockdown, actually, is that I really needed fiber. And, uh, that's the question to you now is. And last question, and to end off the show, something new that you learned about yourself during lockdown.

Speaker C: That I really need people in my life. I think. Uh, yeah, no, I. I think I'm more of a social creature than. Than I ever thought I was. And. And I really benefit from being around people.

Speaker D: Yeah, it's a great answer and I think it's true for. I think it's true for all of us. I think that's really all we've got time for now. And Such a cool show. Thank you. That was a.

Speaker C: Thanks, guys.

Speaker D: That was a really. That was a really fun chat and really fun.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker D: Yeah, I think from the Vega Bond and I, that's really, uh, excited about the Startup Gento and the people we get to meet and the insights we get to share. So thank you so much for your time. And this was episode four of the startup Jinto Vagabond. Thank you as well. It's nice to have you in the room in Cape Town.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's nice to be here. And the coffee was good tonight as well, so thanks for that.

Speaker C: Yeah, thanks, guys. This was such a. Such an awesome experience for me. I really appreciate it.

Speaker D: Cool. Thank you to our listeners. Hope you enjoyed it. Go back and listen to the other Jintos if this is the first one you've heard and look out for the next one. Cheers.