Insights from Ladies Leading Tech: Dr Joan Palmiter Bajorek on Conversational AI, Career Resilience and Human-Centred Tech

Speaker A: Welcome to season seven of the Spotlight series. Don't Just Survive Thrive. Where we dive deep into the transformative world of AI for good. This season is dedicated to exploring how AI is not just reshaping industries, but making a positive impact on society. From climate tech to healthcare breakthroughs, ethical AI and social good will uncover the innovations that uh, are helping to solve some of the world's most pressing challenges. I'm Nicholas Steele, a recruitment expert and career Coach with over 25 years of experience in the tech industry. My passion lies in growing purpose led software startups and scale ups and helping people thrive in their careers. Through my work with JJP Talent Solutions and Nicholas Steele Career Coaching, I've helped thousands of people land meaningful roles and guided companies in building high performing teams. Now through this podcast, I'm bringing conversations with AI pioneers, innovators and thought leaders who are shaping the future of AI for the better. Whether you're an AI software founder, uh, an AI or machine learning engineer, a data scientist, or someone passionate about the intersection of AI and social good, this season is for you. Let's get started. Today I'm joined by Dr. Joan Palmetta Bajarek, uh, CEO of Clarity AI and best selling author of your AI roadmap. Joan has been instrumental in the conversational AI field through her work at both startup and enterprise companies. She's been in AI layoffs and has been resilient via her personal brand networking and also her financial acumen, all of which she covers in her new book which is published uh, in January of 2025. Uh, so a really new publication there. Uh, I'm excited to dive into her journey and discover how AI is shaping our world and how we can be ready for both the volatility and opportunities ahead. Jo, thank you very much for joining me on season seven, episode two of the Spotlight series, Don't yout Survive Thrive.

Speaker B: Delighted to be here.

Speaker A: Thank you Joan. Thank you. So let's kick off. What inspired you to work in the conversational AI field?

Speaker B: Oh, I love this field. I mean I was always the kid that loved languages. If you had that French, uh, teenager who's always learning languages. Um, and then I went into linguistics. And in linguistics I really saw how technology was interacting with languages. You know, now large language models are all the rage, but back in my graduate studies it wasn't very sexy. Um, but looking how the back ends of Alexa and Siri devices work and how we build them really turned me on intellectually. Um, so working on has been, it's kind of, um, a passion that has Evolved across the years. Fantastic.

Speaker A: Um, so it came from that love of languages, whether it be French, German, whatever it may be, and then the linguistics part and then the technology came as results of that. And you mentioned Siri, but what other examples can you give of conversational AI?

Speaker B: Oh yeah. Well, these days I think we're using AI even if we don't realize it necessarily. Those little FAQ bots that come on websites to answer your question, or customer service phone trees, those unpleasant things to get to your healthcare, or at least in the United States to try to get an answer, all of those are things that are part of conversational flows that we believe we know the answers to. Maybe you get sent to a human, um, but all of the mechanics to get you the right information that may be personalized for you is part of conversational AI. So I think we're talking to more bots than we realize is the joke I usually make.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And do you know it's funny with Google for example. And I say to uh, hey Google, please could you possibly turn the music up for me please? And Google's like, I don't understand. But my children just hey, Google, music, uh, up now. And it does it. So it's that kind of clear, simple communication that seems to work much, much better. Uh, and what have you.

Speaker B: And they're speaking how we would code it as well. The way it's trying to up exact words, it wants to hit certain slots. So you speaking more like a human would speak doesn't actually match the code as well?

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: Uh, children are speaking somewhat robotically to match. Yeah. How interesting.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And it's because you're like, I would like you to use your please and thank yous. And they're too old now to really push that in it in them. They're teenagers, so you'd hope they'd already been stilled in that. But it's interesting that you need to keep it really simple and order and robotic, uh, to get the results that you need. Um, and in terms of your career journey, tell me a little bit about your journey through that and uh, what your advice would be for job seekers who want to break into those AI roles. Absolutely.

Speaker B: That's the number one question in my DMs today, uh, is how do I get a job in AI? Uh, but so I'm an ex academic, right. I've got a master's and a Ph.D. and I knew I wanted to go into tech. So as a PhD, presenting conferences, you know, meeting people in tech here in Seattle, there are a Million tech events. Right. You can't miss them. Um, and from there landed my first, uh, six figure building AI job at Enterprise. Um, and from there worked at startups. And it was there that I unfortunately got laid off a few times. Um, that's more and more common these days. Um, but having a network and meeting the right people to get you in the door in the next place, um, is how I've built my career across the years. Um, my advice for job seekers though, uh, is not to send 400 cvs out to the universe, which seems really obvious, but if you meet a job seeker, this may be what they're doing. Um, I would strongly recommend cleaning up your social media, especially your LinkedIn. Um, I've invested a lot in my LinkedIn and it's paid off in spades. I get the coolest opportunities in my DMs, very, very, very jazzy. But like showing who I am, being personable, being easy to find. People know my accolades. So that, that personal brand is something I talk about a lot in my book. Um, and also the network of who you meet at that event, like how you present yourself. I mean networking is such, my mom used to be like networking, like su, like high heels and business cards. But the best networking I know is my group of friends who also are ambitious and in my field and working on cool projects and I genuinely like hanging out with them. Maybe that's, do you know what I mean? Like these are actual friends of mine. So it's that like collective flywheel that is so fortuitous. Um, and in researching my book I learned that after Covid layoffs, 70% of people landed their next job based on introductions. So people think it's the sneaky way, but if 70% of people are getting it done that way, it's actually the majority way. So, um, kind of that humanness is what I recommend.

Speaker A: It's really interesting. So I've been recruiting for, gosh, it's 26 years this month, which really does age me. Um, but it's those old school techniques that really work, like talking to your networks, talking to the people that you know, also growing those networks, not sending out 500 applications. And I know we're talking about AI and AI is wonderful and powerful, used intelligently, but if you're just spam, spam, spamming, it doesn't, it doesn't work. So I love the fact that a person who's an expert in AI is still saying you need to be a human, that that's important.

Speaker B: Yeah, but I think we Also could use AI to improve our CV or, you know, how are there ways to identify those cool opportunities to meet people or. Um, but I think it's an enablement tool and the human piece to be in the right room to be seen for the opportunity is crucial.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Which, as you say, you can use the AI to tailor, to tailor your cv, but don't just outsource it. And it needs to have your voice. And so many people you see this, like, that doesn't sound like you at all. Where's that come from? Um, and it's very Gen AI generated. Um, so that's fantastic to hear. Uh, that what you're saying in your real life experience is exactly what I'm saying as well to job seekers, whether it's in the AI field, but also more generally in terms of the workforce. Um, and your first book, your AI Roadmap. Fantastic. I love it. Um, so tell me, why did you write that and what's it all about?

Speaker B: Oh, yes. Well, I'm a very data driven person. My answer to your, uh, why did you write a book? Um, my team was reviewing my social media. So after ChatGPT, someone who works in AI, whoa. Suddenly my socials were blowing up and my team was reviewing things and seeing like the engagement was around practical content, people could action themselves. So I launched a podcast called your AI Roadmap. Um, while launching the podcast and doing like, how do you launch a podcast? Well, I'm not in season seven. Congratulations. Um, but to launch a podcast. Well, I was taking a tutorial and he said, when you launch your companion book, I was like, oh, no companion book. Um, and so began the sprint of, uh, finding a publisher. And I mean, we already had a validated audience and a topic and someone like me whose DMs are full of questions. And frankly, this book is an answer to those questions. So if your question is, how do I get a job in AI, read the first half of this book. And if it's about resilience and money and how to take care of ourselves, which I feel is underlying a lot of modern career questions, um, the second half of the book is all about financial acumen that I've learned across the years. Um, so there are disclaimers, but I wish I would have invested earlier. I would be so much wealthier if I had invested. So, um, careers and money in the age of AI is what the book is all about.

Speaker A: Fantastic. That's brilliant. And, um, and what series are you on or episode are you on with your podcast?

Speaker B: Uh, we are Currently deploying uh, season two of the podcast and it's um, I'm really excited to say it's being consumed by people in 54 countries. Um, and it's a lot about AI builder. It's dispelling instead of pontificating about AI, it's my friends who are building it um, at Microsoft and Adobe and Amazon and their careers of how they got there. So I think a lot of people are like, you see them on the top of the mountain, like wow, you work at this company. But what were the actual tangible steps that this person took to get there? So really kind of getting behind the curtain is what your AI roadmap is. Um, is for especially ambitious job seeking folks.

Speaker A: Absolutely. That's brilliant and I love the fact that you've got the two together and well done. So I might m be on series seven but I don't have a book. I have a very dusty manuscript somewhere on my computer. Ah. That completely needs redoing. Um, but that's brilliant. Uh, with regards to getting a book. Book written, published and um, I can't imagine the excitement of actually having a copy

Speaker B: and manifested if it feels so wild. I'm in disbelief to be very honest with you, holding this blue book in front of my face.

Speaker A: Yes, and I love as well you've got career, money and joy and who doesn't need more joy in their life? Uh, so sure.

Speaker B: Because the joke I usually make is that some people have the career and the money but you know, they're not unfortunately. And so grounding in meaning and what lights us up I think is crucial.

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Um, and in terms of you mentioned about future. Sorry, I can't speak today. Future proofing careers and income. Um, no, you'll say read the book. But what would be a snapshot of your advice with regards to that?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, for your career we talked a little bit like future proofing your career. You may be in multiple AI layoffs. I'm sad to predict that. I think only get worse, not better as I see more and more teams trying to get, you know, smaller and smaller in headcount. So future proofing your career as we mentioned, the personal brand, what you're known for how you're perceived online. Um, um, personal brand is no longer optional. Especially I know I'm younger so there may be different perspectives. I talk to people far older who like I hate personal brand. Like never want to. Um, um. But I really think investing in how people know you and find you is crucial. We talked about that. Modern networking flywheel um, um, I also talk about prototyping and testing the waters of different sectors instead of. I know some people who spend 14 grand and just jump into the deep end of a boot camp before actually seeing if you need a boot camp to pursue what you want to. So that testing and iterating. This is a researcher in me. Um, but I really recommend that people do those coffee chats and informationals to get advice from people or listen to my podcast, um, and get advice of how people actually make it happen. Validating along the way as you future proof your career. Because all of us may need to pivot and have transformations and ask for help. Um, and so all of that um, backed up by a lot of data. I have a lot of research in my book, um, or my recommendations on the career side. I don't know if it matches your advice for career seekers.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And um, in terms of the future workforce because AI is obviously going to make some roles redundant. Not just for the time being but forever. Um, and you're a young person. I have teenage children. What, what would be your advice for example to my children or other people with kids about what they should do, what should they focus on as their future careers to make themselves future proof?

Speaker B: Yeah, you're not the only one. I get literally parents in my DMs asking like what should my 14 year old do? It's wild. I'm not, I wasn't prepared for this. Um, I mean the concept. There are I think really two options that I see if people. So I'm here in Seattle, almost everyone works in tech, right? Everyone's trying to land the next or work at the cool startup and start the startup. So if you're all in tech, I think that network thing that we just talked about in the flywheel. Um, I strongly recommend though for especially a, ah, teenage young person considering alternate career paths here, uh, in Seattle, almost no one is doing carpentry, H vac, electrician like automobile trade and blue collar is the sector we call it there. There's so much demand and almost no one going into these fields. And I gotta tell you, having recently hired a carpenter to do my fence and my house, they can charge whatever they want and work with whomever they want. Um, and that type of manual work is going to be one of the last to be automated in the way I see it. So if you're looking for a career that will be long lasting and pay quite well, those kind of 180 degree pivots could be very, very attractive. Maybe people will listen and be like, oh my gosh, you know, this AI expert is recommending wildly alternate fields, but I see as being far more resilient and frankly slow moving, um, and great opportunities for teenagers to, you know, leverage SEO or the Internet or you know, Instagram to take it to another place that a boomer who is retiring may not be ready for. So I think there are huge opportunities, a gold mine over there. People want to pursue, absolutely.

Speaker A: So kind of old school trades that modernizing your messaging, for example, with Instagram or whatever social media platform, um, to bring in more business. Uh, but it's interesting on the other side of the world here it's very similar advice, um, that we will still need those trades. Um, and also, uh, other people have suggested as well, nursing, for example, that nurses, it's difficult to replace that human kind of contact, um, in terms of making people better and what have you, uh, and coming back to AI. So what tools can people use to help them with their career resilience and their resilience more generally to uh, have that joyful life?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think on the career aspect there's a tool I really liked called Career Flow, um, which is an AI tool specifically helping a job seeker track their applications. And it's a very like AI driven tool for the career seeker. So that's an option. Um, another one that I really, really love is called Woebot, which is very cute name. Um, it's a clinically validated therapy tool, Chatbot, um, where people can chat with it and have a conversation that maybe unpacks cycles or, you know, depression and anxiety is what it's primarily designed for. Um, but instead of a chatgpt, which is not designed for therapeutic, it's, it's been clinically validated to support people who may not have access to mental health care resources or I go to therapy, there's a real human. Um, but this scale is a really, really cool product. Um, and I would love to see more, you know, AI in the mental health space that is not, you know, detrimental to us. You know, social media can be exceptionally toxic. Um, but different tools that are, I don't know, data driven. I think that's really important to me. Clinically validated, helpful on that. Especially depression and anxiety are so high

Speaker A: these days and that you've got Career Flow and I didn't catch the other one. How do you spell it?

Speaker B: Yeah, Woe Bot.

Speaker A: W, O, E. Oh, woe, as in to be sad.

Speaker B: My m. Pronunciation could be mine. Yes.

Speaker A: Uh, whoa. Yeah. Yeah, it was just, I didn't share the word. So woe as in sadness and bot B o T. Um, that sounds amazing. I shall go and have a look at that. Uh, but it is something that mental health um, is over the last few years has become more and more and more important generally. And also um, with the extreme number of layoffs over the last couple of years, uh, and Covid of course, and everything that we've been dealing with has become more and more important. So. Absolutely. So I have mentioned that there have been a lot of layoffs um, particularly within tech in the last 18 months, two years. What advice would you have for people who are on the job market right now?

Speaker B: Yeah, well I think crucially as we mentioned this mental health, um, taking care of your body and your mind would be paramount. Um, if you're on the job market I really, really hope that you maybe have an emergency fund so perhaps you've money set aside for rainy days and you may or may not. I totally get that. Job seekers balancing. So informational chats. I you know coffee chats is what we call them here in the States. Um, relentlessly pursuing, talking to people. I keep like a spreadsheet, actually sell a spreadsheet if people want to. But um, my friends have had to go in hundreds to, to meet people. So if, if you're doing that sprint, you know, meeting people, taking their advice, following up on things even. I mean honestly that would be my number one recommendation. Underserved. I meet so many lovely people and I offer. Sure, I'd be happy to make that intro or that resource. Oh, you want to read that article? And they don't even follow up. They have my contact information and I'm like all of us could send a text or send an email or a dm. Um, um. And if someone offers anyway, I just think low hanging fruit to simply follow up with those things. If someone's offers, you know, if you're aggressively pursuing them, that's a different story. But um, uh, I think just basic things like that. Um, but maintain that mental health clarity to follow up with those things. So all those things in Constellation.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And yeah, you. There was a guy that I've been dealing with and he got his job through his neighbor. You know how you just chat to your neighbor, talk about the weather, how are the kids, blah blah blah. And then he mentioned that his role had been made redundant. Keep your eyes peeled if I've got any roles. And then this guy was out at a meeting and they said they were really struggling to find somebody. So who was the first person he thought of.

Speaker B: Neighbor.

Speaker A: Exactly. Um, but another thing that you mentioned there as well is when people do help you say thank you. Um, I'm willing to help everybody. But when people don't just say oh thank you. I don't expect gifts in the post or anything like that. But it's just like it makes, it's common courtesy isn't it to to do that. But I love what you say. Is they bringing it back to that human element which is so important and looking after yourself because if you run ragged you're not going to perform well. Uh, and actually we haven't talked about you mentioned Clarity and you're the CEO of Clarity AI and I haven't asked you any questions about that. So tell me a little bit more about Clarity AI.

Speaker B: Yeah, well we build custom ah data and AI solutions for companies. So whether it's a little rinky dink automation, you'll um, be surprised. I guess it's in this conversation. Um, but like so many people are doing so much manual labor of like copying pasting things, PDFs for a product. We were working on two people's full time jobs was copying and pasting codes. I wish I were joking. M and so automations can clear up that clerical work so those humans can be doing other more humanistic um, things. My biggest projects are more on the data lake. Um, I'm allowed to speak about them publicly. My customer is an agriculture company for vertical farming. Um, and similar to the trades that we talked about um, when I met them their practices were pen and paper for how they logged, uh, yields and so forth and for the goals of the company. Pen and paper is not going to scale. I think that's obvious to say in 2025. Um, so how we build their data logs, um, sensors, um, building a data lake and machine learning on top of that um, is a large actually eight figure contract. I'm working to close with them. So this is a multi year deep in the weeds, um, supporting them because they have their domain expertise in agriculture.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I've been aggressively upskilling in agriculture these days. Um, but I have my me and my team have the expertise in the data in the AI and how it can fiscally bring in robust more revenue for their company to hit their big big goals. Um, so that's just one tangible example um, of how Clarity AI is building solutions.

Speaker A: Fantastic. That's amazing. So how big is your team Joan? With Clarity AI?

Speaker B: Yeah it's fractional. I mean right now it's roughly depending on the project uh Four to six people. And I would actually really love to keep the team small and uh, well paid.

Speaker A: Absolutely fantastic. That's absolutely brilliant. And then AI is moving at such a tremendous rate, uh, and speed. It's crazy. What would you say your predictions for 2030 with regards to where AI is headed and I know I'm putting you on the spot here Jane, because I didn't say I was going to ask you this question.

Speaker B: Excellent question. Let's see how right or wrong I am. Um, one of the things that right now, so agentic AI is one of the buzzwords um, here as we're recording and agents are really helpful. I think what's undervalued right now, 2030. I think one of the things undervalued is data streaming. So right now a lot of ways we look at AI is we're making predictions or inferences on data we already have. But um, however late we got it, there's a latency factor right. That data from last month. But what's going on right now? For example, um, there's a brain, um, startup that I was talking to and getting really high fidelity data on your brain and blood cycles. You need it as soon as possible. You want it up to date as possible. And so having like the concept of data streaming I hope will be far fixed, um, in the future. Anyway, I don't want to get too nerdy on you, but that's, that's data streaming. If that, if that becomes a bigger thing. I think also slightly undervalued. I hope to see more of by 2030 is kind of IoT smart, IoT. Um, it's so cool that we have amazing technology within like I'm on an imac right now and all these, you know, sophisticated devices. But I see these prototypes of for example, uh, different technology in your bathroom, um, where it could sense things that are going on with your microbiome, with your, your mouth or otherwise that are potentially in your toothbrush or related to your toilet or otherwise. Our environments are rich with data and yet right now we're not doing anything or most of us may not be doing stuff with that. So I think much as I want privacy, I see huge expansion with projects I've done in the medical sector for preventative health care, um, and just extremely simple data driven things. I got a new toothbrush that gives a little beep when I need to move it from which side of my teeth.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: How brilliant and helpful across years to have better dental health. Um, that's not specifically AI driven. This is a Timer. Um, but those things built into devices we use regularly, I see more and more of that sophisticated Iot, um, happening.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And I mean, if the toothbrush could say that you're getting a tiny cavity rather than waiting six months or a year for your dental appointment, you can get it sorted straight away rather than it becoming a bigger problem, um, and what have you. But that's amazing. Well, Joan, it is fabulous to talk to you, um, and hear about your amazing book, your podcast and everything. And thank you for sharing your insights. Is there anything else that you'd like to share?

Speaker B: Oh, yes, well, the one thing. So of course, you know, please buy my book, check out the podcast. I, you know, make those calls. Um, but we also, my team made a, ah, personality quiz. So sometimes people my content and they go, I don't even know where to begin. Like I'm, I'm looking for my own roadmap. And so we have a personalized roadmap quiz. If people want to take it. It's totally free at, um, your AI roadmap.com me. Um, and people can fill it out and kind of get our recommendations of the best advice, um, whether it's related to career, whether it's related to money, um, upskilling in AI topics. It'll send you emails right away with that content. So little, little quiz, interactive, but also personalized.

Speaker A: Who doesn't like a quiz? I. Would you mind sending me the link? Because I know you said it, but,

Speaker B: um, who knows with my accent?

Speaker A: Well, no, it's nothing to do with your accent. It was me that I was like, oh, no, I should have written that down. Um, but that is fantastic and I will. It's great having that data driven information, uh, and what have you, as well as what your preferences are and guiding you that way. And even better, it's free. Um, so thank you very much, Jo.

Speaker B: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It was lovely speaking with you.

Speaker A: Thank you. That's a wrap on this episode of AI For Good. I hope you found today's conversation insightful and inspiring. AI is changing the world, and the more we explore its potential for good, the better we can harness it for ethical and impactful innovation. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe so you never miss a new conversation with AI pioneers and industry leaders. I'd also love to hear your thoughts. Connect with me on LinkedIn and share your biggest takeaway. And from today's discussion, you can find me at, uh, Nicholas Steele, Values Driven Recruitment. And if you're an AI professional or founder, looking to grow your career or scale your team? Feel free to reach out. I'd love to help. Until next time, keep innovating, keep learning, and let's build AI for a better world.