EP 243: REPLAY: BE AN ACTIVE LISTENER WITH TRUDI BARTOW

Speaker A: Hey there. I'm Michelle Sherrier and this is the Retail Whore podcast. Stories and lessons from a life in retail. Mhm mhm,

Speaker B: Mhm, mhm, Mhm, mhm. Mhm mhm.

Speaker A: Trudy, welcome to the Retail Horror Podcast.

Speaker B: Hi, welcome, uh, welcome to you too for being here.

Speaker A: I'm super excited to do this because when we met, I think we met in Vegas, correct? Or was it met in Vegas, saw each other in New York. You are just like one of the smartest people and you're so funny and uh, uh, it seems that you work for the perfect company for your personality.

Speaker B: So I found this company six years ago and I fell in love first with their tagline, which is thoughtful gifts for thinking people. And I couldn't imagine what that. And then I got to their showroom and I saw finger puppets and mugs that transform and soaps like Lady Macbeth. Out, out. Damn guest spot soap. And I said that's it, I'm done. This is my stopping place. No turning back. This is all I want to do.

Speaker A: So I'm going to have you introduce yourself. But you are with um, unemployed, uh, philosophers. But you have like, you have a pretty lengthy uh, background in, I mean in publishing, which I was like oh my gosh, Harry Abrams. So tell everybody, introduce your, tell everybody a little bit about yourself and give us a little background on how you ended up where you're at now.

Speaker B: Sure. So my name is Trudy Bartow. I've been doing this for blah blah, blah years. Uh, well, we'll nicely say 20. That sounds like a good whole number. Um, and I started in publishing, I ah, will say, you know, before the, the, the it was the, it was the golden days before Amazon was really a thing, people were happy to drop $200 on a coffee table book. So it was an absolutely amazing experience. And we specialized in these big oversized luxe coffee table books that were um, Richard Avedon photography or the history of the Louis Vuitton suitcases or how you know the Chanel accessories or I remember once we did a book on the pins of Madeleine Albright. I mean really absolutely gorgeous coffee table books and stuff. Special markets, which is the gift industry, that's what publishers like to call non bookstore channels, was really just starting. It was really an afterthought in every publishing house and there were some very innovative people um, at Workman and Story that were working really hard behind the scenes to place books in non traditional book retailers. And that's really where I grew up and fell in love with it and tried to Be creative. How can we pair a beautiful fashion photography book with a, like, anthropology? What's their color theme? How are they thinking, um, putting the right cookbook in a Williams Sonoma? Um, looking at all the independent mom and pops and thinking, how can we, you know, just be an add into their basket? You know, they're selling cookware and tea and how can we make a gorgeous interior design book work for them? And. And that's where I spent a good long period of my. Of my childhood. Um, worked at Abrams, I worked at Storchaborian, Chang, McMillan, HarperCollins.

Speaker A: Holy moly.

Speaker B: I worked everywhere. Publishers like to. I don't say jump ship, but we like to explore the seas. Um, and it's a sort of a transferable knowledge. So once you. You've got the skill sets, you can really make your way in any house and play in all the different genres.

Speaker A: Um, it's really interesting to me because, you know, I know publishers, like, there's a rep at Steven Young, and when I've heard people talk about how she curates their book collections and how knowledgeable she is, I mean, it's my. I don't even think about that as a buyer or as a merchandiser. I'm just like, kind of what you're talking about, curating some of these books for the Neiman Marcuses and the fashion houses and Williams Mama. That's like the. To me, like the original where cross merchandising started, where you're pairing cookbooks and tabletop and you're pairing fashion and cocktail and, um, coffee table books about fashion. Like, it seems like really. But it's. It's really interesting the knowledge that. That publishing people in the publishing world, like, what you guys bring and how you actually curate buys for people. Because I'm just like, oh, that looks good. That looks good. That looks good. You know, I mean, not that I don't have a rhyme or reason, because I am curating kind of as I go along, but like, you. You really. I mean, publishing houses and people really. I mean, do you have to know every single book in your. I would guess so in the. In the collection. I mean, what's that look like?

Speaker B: So, yeah, it's a lot of reading. Um, it's a lot of, uh, you know, you don't have to know everything, but the more you know, the better you can service your clients. So I feel like in any industry, no matter what you're selling, the more knowledge you bring to the table, the more. And you sort of actively listen to what your customer is telling you, the more you become this amazing rep at Steven Young. I know exactly who you're talking about, who has like an encyclopedic knowledge, uh, and everything.

Speaker A: Please say her name just so everyone knows, because I can't remember her name. She's not my rep.

Speaker B: Her name is Linda Parent. She is top notch, one of the, just the smartest book people you'll ever meet. And, and what I love about her, she's an active listener and that's I think, really, really crucial. And once again, it's focused in the gift industry or anywhere else that you are an active listener, can hear what you're saying. So if you sit down with a retailer and you, they tell you, these are my trends, these are my concerns, these are my pain points. This is what sells the best. Somebody who then has this encyclopedic knowledge of publishing can say, okay, I'm going to pick you, this author who speaks to your audience. I'm going to pick you this book because, um, of this author's collection because the colors match the theme that you're serving right now. And the graph on this is going to fit right into this section you're putting together with your plants and your llamas and your stuffed, you know, beanie babies or whatever they are.

Speaker A: Are you are speaking my love language. Okay, I just want to go back and touch base for one second on what you just said about being an active listener because, and I, I, I, I have reps that I love that listen to what we're saying. And I have reps that literally don't listen to what, like, what are, what we're working on or haven't been in the store. And they're like, this is the top seller. And you know, when I was with the store called Sweet Xo, it was like we were a candy and ice cream shop. We sold a sh, ton of gifts. But you know, I had reps, like apparel reps. Some of them were like, you know, these, like, whatever panties, uh, that roll up into a little ball look like candy. I'm like, it's a, it's a candy and ice cream store. Like, and I've said to reps like, please come in the store and please see what we're doing so you can understand where I'm going with the buys. That this is not. And literally like it falls on deaf ears. And it's like that acne active listening thing. Like, thank you for saying that because I think that, uh, that is like a huge benefit to retailers when you have an active and retailers for their customers. Same thing.

Speaker B: I was on a webinar not that long ago and someone used the, used the phrase, you can't just show up and throw up. Um, what you're getting, right, Like a rep is like so excited to show you all the bestsellers. So they show up with their catalogs and they pull out, here's the top 10 things and this is what you have to have. And, and before you can even catch a breath, they've shown you 100 different things and you don't know what you're looking at, but they haven'. Taken the time to see. Okay, everything in here is pink, Everything in here is glitter. Everything in here is for this age, this demographic, this customer.

Speaker A: Oh my God.

Speaker B: Right? Like this is a curate experience. If I want to sort for the happy moment, I mean, I'll go to the value store and I'll look for what's on sale and I'll have a whole treasure hunt experience. But when I walk into independent retail, I want, I mean, I. This is, maybe this is me, but I'm going for their esthetic. They've already curated it. They told me what to buy. They told me this is the best of the best in the bath bombs and the cards and the luxury throws. So you don't have to go anywhere else. Just pick for me. And it's that curation that is so important and that sort of trust in relationship.

Speaker A: Okay, reps, will you listen to that, please? Oh my God. Okay, so how, how long and why did you end up leaving the publishing company to jump ship and go to a gift company?

Speaker B: So it's one of these like sort of magical stories. I, um, was working at Sterling Publishing, which is actually owned by Barnes and Noble, and I had transitioned away from special markets into their more money making platform of selling to bookstores because, you know, I'm a good salesperson. So you just get promoted and promoted up. But I missed sort of the glitz and glam and I missed that close relationship of, um, gift. Um, so I wasn't looking for anything. I had just actually come back from a buying trip overseas at the Beijing Book Fair and I get a phone call out of the blue from one of my partners and said, do you want to hear about an opportunity? And I said, I always want to hear about an opportunity. Always, always. My ears are open, my eyes are wide. Tell me. And, um, they said that there was this company called the Unemployed Philosophers Guild that was really fun and really niche and was looking for an exceptional salesperson and I went on their website and it was, it was just like I said, it was love at first sight. It was so fun. All their products. And then, you know, I worked in midtown Manhattan. You know, power suits, high heels, makeup, you know, you did your hair every day, you always got your gel manicures on. And I walked this great little small office in Brooklyn on a tree lined street. Everyone was really casual. And I sat down with the owners of the company, two brothers who founded the business. You know, once again 2020 is a good number to say 20 years ago and we're still there and still active and still involved. And every minute with them was like a homecoming. And I said, I want to sell these products. I want to get back in gift. I want to sell, I want to have fun when I have these great connections. And um, six years later, here I am, still here, still in love.

Speaker A: I, I love the line. It's funny. It's like I've, I'm. Every single show, I'm so drawn to it and I haven't had a chance to write it because I concept stuff. I mean coming out of. From Fred Siegel and to anthropology, like I still very much buy the way I merchandise. And I will curate collections where you know just what you were saying, where it's. It goes to the store and then we curate new collections each season and we have some that carry through. Please pay no attention to my dog barking in the backgr. Everyone's used to her here at the podcast and even though I've moved my office out further from the house, she still finds a way to make herself.

Speaker B: I put the cats away so that you won't all of a sudden tail come.

Speaker A: We're very pet friendly here.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker A: But um, you know I, I love, I've always loved the product and I couldn't figure out what is a lot of my, my stores sell it that I don't do their curation for. So Serendipity did all of the um, uh, all like the, the Ruth, um,

Speaker B: Gaynor like I'm like yeah, female empowerment.

Speaker A: He did a big female empowerment, um, group last for the last two Christmases and then she paired it up with some of the felt ornaments from other people and it was such a great collection. And, and you know, every single show I stop and I'm like I really want. I finally wrote it and I'm sorry. So excited. But tell me a little bit about. Because you know, it's so, it seems like to me a very seamless m move from publishing to there because it's very smart. They're very smart gifts. They're smart. And they're kind of cheeky, but they're very smart. I mean, they're. They're philosophical characters, they're public characters. They're. They're political characters. Like, tell me a little bit about. Because, like you said, it's everything from finger puck bits to now zip pouches that I wrote. Like, so tell me, like, how kind of how the collection started and, like, where from when you came in and to where it is now. Like, what have you kind of, like, worked your magic on?

Speaker B: So this is, like, that's a big question. I know.

Speaker A: I'm so sorry. I just realized. God damn, you're still talking.

Speaker B: Let me try to get into smaller pieces. So, um, as I mentioned, this company has been around for a good number of years. It was started by two brothers. And sort of the founding myth I tell, which is not the real story, but it's a good story to tell at a trade show, is that two brothers graduated with degrees in philosophy and history and a love of film. So obviously, they got great jobs, $100,000 a year, totally able to support themselves. Or they started making pins that they sold sort of on the streets of soho and of their favorite people. Mallory Monroe, Sigmund Freud, Albert Einstein, some of them. I'm putting my hands here because my chest. Because they were little pins that you would, like, put on your lapel. And they made them in their mom's oven with polymer clay, and they built them all themselves, and it was a huge success. But you know that it's a young man's game to want to sell on the. On the streets of Manhattan. And isn't it so much better to get into stores? So that's sort of their first line. And then it just really became about, how can we express these characters, these people, um, these personalities into different mediums? So then it became. It wasn't just, you know, amongst, uh, the Scream on, um, a little pin. Then it became on a pillow. And then, oh, wow. Let's put a sound chip in the pillow so that it screams when you hug it. Okay. And now let's make an inflatable version of the Scream. And now let's make sticky notes with the Scream. And it's a to do list, a to do and a to dread list, actually, because that's what that sort of image evokes. So it's. It's really about sort of obsessively knowing who our customer is. Um, and you're right. It's, it's, it's that smart customer. It's somebody who wants to laugh, who wants to think a little bit, has some sort of knowledge of a topic and wants to explore it and really, you know, dive into it. We, you know, it's a cliche to say nerd out, like, celebrating the. All of us, right? But it's, it's totally true. It's geek chic. Yeah, that's what we've got. And, um, in our office, there's about 11 of us, and we all come from different backgrounds. We have film majors, we have philosophy majors, we have people who have masters in art history. Uh, we have, you know, published writers. Uh, we have business people. I mean, from all sort of cultures and backgrounds. And we come together every week and we sit around a table and we just obsess, and we just brainstorm for at least an hour every single week. And the majority of the time, what comes out of those meetings is horrible. Um, it is stuff that will never sell. It's the worst ideas you've ever heard. I, um, mean, my God, may HR Never listen to these conversations. I mean, some of the, the things that we get into brainstorming would make us laugh hysterically and then immediately have to be thrown into the garbage. But from that comes, um, you know, genius ideas and really fun, exceptional things. And then we dive into the research of it because we want to be that really intellectual company. So we don't want to just put a thing on a thing on a thing. We want to understand the who, the what, the how, the why, the where. Right? It's those old school five journalism questions. Who wants this? Why do they want this? How is it better than everyone? Everybody else is. How is it highlighting and celebrating the person, the character, um, the intention, um, and how is it different from everything else that's already out there? And we just obsess and obsess and it takes us a long time. We're not fast to market. Uh, we go slow because we want to get it right. And we want to make sure that every time you touch it and you pick it up, uh, it feels different and it feels great. And I think that's what separates us, and that's what makes us really fun. Um, and so in my time there of, uh, the six years I've been there, we really, you know, we have our hero product. Our hero product are mugs, right? That's what we're mostly known for. I have one in my hand here. If you see me on the screen, it's a big giant. This is the history of art. Lascaux cave paintings all the way here to Samoa Hall. And, um, every little detail is crucial to us. And so this is the hero of the line. So we always try to have a hero every season. We develop new products every season. So we try to make more interesting mugs. We do a lot of technology with heat changing.

Speaker A: I love those. That's what we wrote.

Speaker B: And it's something else, right? So our best selling one is Dinosaurs. It's dinosaurs in the wild, as I imagine they were 65 million years ago. And then you put your coffee in and then they're museum quality skeletons. Or it's the night sky and it's constellations. It's, it's, you know, the planets. And then every single fact you could ever want to know about the planets and their distance from the sun and their moons and their, uh, diameters. I mean, kooky, kooky, crazy things that, the, that it's a real celebration of the curiosity and the intellect. So I don't know, did I ramble enough? Did I answer?

Speaker A: Well, I'm sitting here like thinking, okay, I'm so happy I wrote the hero products because all the ones you just listed, I wrote for Rock paradise, because for the kids section, even though Aaron, who I was with, is all the kids drink coffee, I'm like, well, cocoa, like, you know, hot, like, whatever. But I, you know, who are some of the people? Like, I'm, I'm assuming you sell a ton of museums. Like, who are some of the. Where are some of the places that you're placed that, um, you feel like are not without calling somebody else, but like, if you had a perfect marriage of like, you know, your product and a retailer, like, who. What does that look like?

Speaker B: So, I mean, our, I would say our perfect placement is really, um, any store that our customer shops in. That's a real throwaway answer. I hope, I hope so. So, I mean, I just want to find the person that loves us. And yeah, if you speak generally, the person who loves us is probably someone who likes to spend their, you know, their Sunday at a museum. And we're in the gift shop or they like to go to their independent bookstore, you know, get two reads and then, you know, get a pin set of, um, you know, Albert Einstein and the formula for, you know, E equals MC squared. Um, but it's, we really also anywhere where you can look for that, especially with our, um, our personalities. It's like anywhere where that message needs to be told. That's Where I want to be. So if it's a female empowerment, if it's um, you know, a bipoc message, if it's diverse voices, if it is uh, looking for, to celebrate writers or to celebrate stem, which is so crucial, especially in those kids departments, I, um, want to be there. I want to have a place, I want to have a voice. I want to make sure that I'm curating my message for what they're doing and I want to have fun while we're there. Because ultimately if someone picks up my product and doesn't get a laugh, I walk away. Let's find something else for you because that's not the right thing for you. And then you won't come back because

Speaker A: you guys have everything from soaps to fingerprints to the dolls to mugs to decks to post its. What else, what else am I missing? Because it's, I mean, I think, like I said, I think part of the reason why, like, uh, for years I've been looking at it and I love it. But it's like, where is this gonna fit? Because it is so smart. It, I mean like, you know, I'm not gonna lie. My concepts are like the cheeky, the fun, like the, like the, the, the birthday girl, the, you know, table. I mean it's uh, in placing it, it was like, it was so great to be able to place it at ah, Rock paradise because of the rocks and the dinosaurs and you know, everything that we do in the kids department, it was like, this is perfect. But you know, when talk, uh, okay, I'm going to put you in a merchandiser's position, so talk to me about some of, like creating a concept based around some of those products. Women's empowerment is one that I love. Like top two, like give some people some great ideas about like, what they could pair it with and where it could go in their store. Because I think I love hearing reps talk about that and people within the manufacturing like them curating. Like in a perfect world, this is how we see it. Like this is what we would love to merchandise it if this is our store.

Speaker B: Yeah. So that's a great example. So I always say when you're, When I'm presenting for an exhibition or an event. Right, I'll talk about it that way. Um, I like to give people what I call the low hanging fruit and sort of the reach for it and the low hanging fruit on ah, like an empowerment program would be Rosie the Riveter. Right. She's a really popular character. She's got her Fist up, she's ready to fight. You know, we can do it. Embodying that spirit of sort of that, you know, um, that woman who's going to step up and make things happen. So you know, layer her in. We've got um, sticky notes with Rosie the Riveter. We've got pins, we've got hard working lip balm, um, we've got empowerment lit, um, empowerment mittens. So you know, that's your base. But now let's reach, let's educate, let's throw in some unexpected um, personalities into this women that we should know of and we don't know enough of someone like Shirley Chisholm, who was a powerful political activist who you know, worked for the um, Equal Rights Act. Um, it was a really important community, grassroots organizer. People, um, you know, even like Frida Kahlo, brilliant artist who just taught us to embrace ourselves. You don't have to conform to what other people are looking for. Um, then we've got, you know, brilliant writers like Dickinson and Austin. Throw them in there. They were groundbreaking, ahead of their time. Um, so then you want to layer that in and try to find out, you know, what else can make this sort of perfect, um, this curated selection. And uh, that's, that's how I would do it.

Speaker A: When you're, since you come out of the publishing company, you know, I would guess, you know, a shit ton of books that you could say. And I, and if you write books with this line, I would suggest you pair them because I'm all about cross merchandising lines because I think it just tells such a deeper story because to me merchandising is storytelling and, and really, you know, create. And that's part of the beauty of concepting something is really creating this thing and, and cross merchandising products like yours and, and since you're out of the publishing company, I bet you're able to give them suggestions on. This is a fabulous book. And this is, this is what I would show. Not that most companies do that, but I just think you would be the person to do that with.

Speaker B: No, listen, um, I was listening to your podcast actually. Um, the one you had earlier, uh, with the lady from the boutique Hub. And she has my favorite motto in the whole world, like we should all, you know, embroider samplers and have this in our offices, which is community over competition.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: My favorite phrase.

Speaker A: Me too.

Speaker B: At a, ah, conference about a year ago and she also said that and I just, I'm um, in love with this phrase. I think it's really important to make sure that you are telling your retail partners the best thing for them to sell. And the reality is, it might not be what I have, but if you lead them astray or if you give them advice that will ultimately hurt them so that you can make a sale today, you're killing all your sales for the future. You have to make sure. I mean, I really believe you have to make sure that we are in this together to create that. That experience of walking into a store and saying, wow, I'm going to shop here all the time. This is my curated message. You can't just throw in your bestseller because you've got to move 100,000 units for some reason. You really got to work with them to find the best product for them. And sometimes, which, you know, it goes against every instinct as a salesperson. Sometimes you have to tell the retailer, no, you like X, Y and Z. Great, X and Y are yours, but I'm not going to sell you Z. I don't think it's going to work for you.

Speaker A: I love that. Thank you.

Speaker B: Say it. You got to say it because, you know, and then if they really push you, fine. Um, I'm going to. I'm sending it to you with a warning. And it's really. Because I know how it sells. I know what the reaction is. I know the. A little bit more about how it's tracking. And yeah, I'm definitely, you know, been wrong before. And a retailer said, hi, you told me not to get it, and I sold a million of them. And I swear it's not a tactic. I really am trying to help that person find the right avenue. And if someone says to me, I'm looking for this and I don't have it, you know, I see a lot of vendors at shows be like, I'm sorry, I don't have it. And that's the end of the conversation. And I don't do that. I say, well, let me introduce you to my friend down the hall, or let me walk you over to this person, or, you know, I can't leave my booth, but let me write down where you should make sure you told them Trudy sent you over here, um, so that they know that, you know, you're coming with a recommendation and take them really seriously and make sure you're showing them the best of the best. And ultimately, I think that will serve us. And in my career, it served me very well because it's. I think it's important to have this sort of openness and this honesty because at the end of the day, all we have is our reputation. And if I sold you something that doesn't work, uh, you're never going to trust me again. And, um, but if it works, you're going to remember it worked. You're going to remember that I was kind. You're going to remember that I helped you in Another Avenue. And then we're just going to keep working together over and over again.

Speaker A: I love that philosophy, and that's the reason why I love Ashley's philosophy. Because a lot of people get really, especially, you know, retail that's so close to each other and there's. Everyone's caught, you know, like, everyone's worried about someone carrying this line and that line. And I learned it from Fred a long time ago. It was like, don't worry. Whatever else is doing, you do your thing, you show it your way. Like what? Uh, like, don't worry. But that does. A lot of people do worry about that. But the touching on the telling, being honest with your customer, that this one, that, you know, it's the same thing. It's like when I had my stores, I would tell my staff, like, do not. If the person does not look good in that, do not tell them. It looks good on them because they are going to go home to their husband or wife.

Speaker B: Wife.

Speaker A: And they're going to go, look what I bought. And their husband or wife is going to go, why did they tell you that? Like, they. I mean, uh, it's that honesty is what. And that's what I've built my reputation on of, of being honest. And. And you're. It's a relationship. And ideally it's a relationship you're going to have with somebody now all the way up until. Whether you change two or three jobs. But you're always going to be able to. To be able to pick up the phone and say, hey, like, you know, whatever, like I'm in a new company or. But just because it's a relationship and you trust that person. And I think that is so huge.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, we're in the gift industry, right? We should be better. We're not selling widgets. We're not, you know, we're selling a, uh, lifestyle. We're selling a story. We're selling an experience. And we're not, for the most part. We're not selling things that people have to have to survive. So to act like it, it, uh, is just a disservice. We really want to make sure that we are really encompassing and we're looking at the bigger picture, because retail is retail. There's tons of stores. There's tons of things to buy. And if we segment and if we fight, uh, it's just going to sink all of us. But if we come together as a community and share our best practices and share how we're doing and, um, no one has to give away the secret sauce, but, you know, we can at least be more open to raise everybody up.

Speaker A: Yeah, it makes our industry stronger. I mean, I said that because when Stephen opened up in Las Vegas, you know, I heard. I heard a mix of we're so excited to, you know, what's that going to do to us? And they're. All the buyers are going to spend all their time in that showroom. And I'm like, look, it's really good for the industry. It's really good for the building. It's really good. It means people that maybe didn't do that show before, they. That Steven brings to the shows. Like, it means there's more people and maybe they don't see your showroom that time, but it means it's bringing people in. It's more eyes everywhere in the show and just makes the show or showroom or retailer, whatever it is, stronger because there's more people. I mean, it's now becoming more of a destination and more of a destination. And I mean, I just. I love that. Thank you for saying that. Because that's one of those things where I'm like, always feel like I'm on my soapbox.

Speaker B: And let me tell you, I can. As a vendor in a not in, um, Steven Young showroom, I could tell you I wrote 15 orders because he flew a group, a buying group in would not have gotten. I mean, maybe I would have gotten them on the road and maybe I would have seen them later. But I got a chance to meet with 15 buyers who I normally wouldn't have seen and placed orders with all of them. And it was great. And I went up to thank him.

Speaker A: I, uh, love that, uh, at Bar

Speaker B: George and had a coffee. So it's really, you know, this is what it's about. We should be open, we should be helping. Because the stores can't just buy one line. It would be a very boring store. So, you know, we all want to be there.

Speaker A: I love. I have no idea this conversation is going to go this way. I'm not going to lie. I'm really loving this. Tell me. So you guys, as a team for your brand, you guys all sit together, the 11. Do you all have participation in ideas of products that you roll out. Because you told me a story about your name niece. Talking about the hairpins. So talk a little bit about that. And like, what's everybody, uh, is it collectively you all work together and create things? Yeah.

Speaker B: So, um, well, first let me tell me tell you the story so that everyone can hear it, because it's one of my favorite stories. So, um, I have a nine year old niece, is very precious and very adorable and. And of course, I am the aunt, so I do whatever she tells me to do. I need this squishmallow. I need this, uh, whatever. Of course, you know, add it to your wish list. Here it is. So we were out shopping and she wanted some, uh, hairpins. She's got very long, beautiful, curly hair, and she wanted some hairpins. And I said, sure, of course, whatever you want. And she picked up these, you know, poop emoji hairpins. And, you know, listen, I love a good poop joke. Who doesn't? And I said, you know, Ziva, we are smart, capable, intelligent women, and we're not going to put literal shit on our heads, okay? We are going to put something that shows that we are smart and sophisticated. And I went back to the office and I said, well, how. How can we do this? And I told a story at a brainstorming session and we said, let's make hairpins. And so then we're like, okay, we could make dinosaurs. We could make the flowers of great paintings. We could make cephalopods. We could do all these things. And so, you know, from one idea, everyone just starts piling on these ideas, and we have, like, brilliant artistic team that starts, like, instantly sketching out things in a notepad. And, uh, the package was born. And it's funny, I just so happen to have a package.

Speaker A: Oh, look at that.

Speaker B: So here, these are great flowers of art. So you could look at them and you can see a whole bunch of things, right? It could just be three great hairpins, it could just be three great flowers, or it could be a Van Gogh in o', Keeffe, and, um, the water lily from Monet. And then it's a whole nother angle. So that's what I mean when we try to really obsess about the customer and the need. So there's lots of hairpins out there, there's lots of different flowers out there, and there's lots of different art. So how can we make this sort of great package that you want to pick up and use over and over again? And that's how this line was born, and it came out now almost about a year ago, hugely successful. And at first there was some hesitancy. It's like, well, you know, we can just buy poop emoji hairpins. Why would anybody want this? And then I would tell this story, and people would instantly buy the whole program. And then the next show. They were great. They were huge sellers. What do you have new? How can we buy more? So it was great.

Speaker A: Um, did your niece get one package of every single one of them, I hope?

Speaker B: Of course she did. And she wears all the time. And now I m. Feel like I'm supplying the entire middle school, uh, with hairpins. And, uh, it's not just for girls. They're for everybody. Everyone who has a little extra hair that they want up. Um, and. And it's. It's really fun. And it's fun developing it, and it's fun seeing, you know. And I have to tell you, out of all the hairpins we've done, not all of them were winners, right? You can't look at a line and make 10 things and two things fail and think, oh, uh, we can't do any more in this line. You know, you just have to realize those two things didn't resonate. That wasn't their time. So let's focus on. On what did work, and let's make more of that and let's play around and have more fun. And in this game, oh, here's a great. Another phrase, right? You have to have that entrepreneurial mindset. You can't be afraid of failure. You have to embrace failure. You have to look at it as a learning opportunity. And for every product that fails miserably, you have to just look at the who's, the why's, the hows, and keep working on it. And then you never know. Maybe someone is going to come. Two years from now, you still are sitting on the inventory, and they think it's the best thing since sliced bread.

Speaker A: I seriously feel like, uh, I. I'm, like, sitting here like you. Everything you're talking about, I mean, this is. No, but literally everything you're talking about is like, so what? My. My favorite phrase is failure is the best instructor. Like, it's. I mean, honestly, like, I think a lot. I think a lot of times people will take failure as a bad thing. And for me, it's like, you know, if I didn't lose my stores at Fred Siegel, I wouldn't have been an anthropology. If I didn't, you know, go through working with Suitexo. And they decided to close all the stores, then I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now. I mean, I feel like each of these quote failures has also kind of driven you in a different direction that you might have not ever thought you were going to go. And then to be able to sit back and look at the lessons, like, okay, what did I learn from that? But I think a lot of people take, um, failure as a bad thing. And it's like, I, I, I don't anymore. Like, I, I really, honestly, I feel like it's some of the best lessons I've, I've ever had has been from quote failures.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's completely, and maybe it's like a, uh, not at the cool thing to say, but, you know, I believe in abundance and manifesting. I mean, if you put something out in the universe, what is it? You're just in saying your intention out loud. And then if you've said it out loud, well, now you feel like you have to act on it. So you can call it spiritual, you can call it a, ah, force, or you can just say, I wrote it and now I'm going to do it. Um, but I believe that like, failure is just a way to remind us that maybe that wasn't the right thing at that moment. And, um, you know, I just say to myself, it's the universe knocking on my door saying, not this door, but can you please turn around and look at the door we've got over here? Because this is really exceptional. You haven't been looking over there because you've just been too busy over there. Yep. You know, take a, take a turn left and let's see what happens. And everything teaches. Everything teaches. I mean, I could sit here for the next five hours and tell you, one failure after the next and one trade show where nobody showed up and, you know, having a, your, your display doesn't even arrive and you're driving to Michael's and Target and trying to build it. The end of the day. Those are the experiences that teach you to be nimble and quick and thoughtful and realize who around you can, can be your support team. You know, who's going to laugh with you when it's two in the morning and you're in your hotel room crying because your samples didn't come and you had the worst day ever and your feet are killing you. Um, it's like, let me call my three other vendor friends who have all been through this because we're all honest. You know, it's really crucial um, one of my big sort of missions this year is. I'm trying to say, let's not all say it was great, right? You come back from market and what do you. What's the first thing someone asks you? Well, how was market? And you're like, oh, great. You know, what was the feeling? It was great. What did you buy? Great stuff. Maybe it's true. Maybe we. That was great. But you, uh, know, nine times ten, nine times out of ten, I probably wasn't so great. Maybe there was something that went wrong or a line that didn't work, or an expectation that wasn't met, or you got a bad feeling from somebody and if we're all keeping it inside one, it's no good for us as human beings in this world. Um, but then we create this expectation that it's got to be perfect every time. And if we're just all a little bit honest about sometimes how tough the journey is, um, we could share that and we can learn from each other and we can uplift each other in those moments of, you know, don't cry alone. I'm. I'm coming to your hotel room with a bottle of wine and I'm going to tell you the worst, worst that stories I've ever had.

Speaker A: Those are the best.

Speaker B: And they're the best nights, right? The worst night becomes the best night suddenly. So we shouldn't dwell on these things alone. I mean, I talk about a hard right in the conversation. Sorry about that.

Speaker A: Oh, my God. But I'm m loving this so much. You don't even know. Because those who know me, I mean, I could flip the camera around, show you, like, my crystals, and every morning I pull a card and I have a grab. I mean, like, you're talking my love language, lady. Like, but it's. I believe that, that, uh, like all of these philosophies and all these beliefs of the universe and lessons and failure, I think that it's all how you look at it. And I. Which makes me now want to ask you, because I hate talking about COVID because I'm like, over it, but Covid force. And this is my, this is what I will say is that. And everyone's heard me say it before, is that I really believe that what Covid did was force a lot of people to pivot. And it forced a lot of people, people way out of their comfort zones and those who were not, like, going live and getting on, like, um, uh, doing stories and you didn't have a website set up and like, all those things that, like, you didn't want to do because we don't do social media or I'm not comfortable, literally, universally, it was like the universe is all, well, okay. And it just kind of very quickly ushered in a whole new breed of retailers or a whole new breed of wholesalers as well. Like, especially if you look at New York now and the whole bulletin thing that's happening now, it's all these young energy, like it's the next wave. And it's like, I really believe Covid really forced a lot of people's hands and really fast forwarded our industry into like, uh, a different, not different direction, but just a different. Like the younger ones are up and coming now, and they're up and coming way faster than it would have happened. So what did Covid and Pivot look like for you at. At. At, uh, philosophers. Like, I'm guessing, like a lot of people. You're obviously closed.

Speaker B: We never closed.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: We worked from home, but we never closed. Um, and we, we, we took our, we have a monthly cheese day.

Speaker A: Cheese day? Like as in queso?

Speaker B: As in Queso, yeah. Everyone, one of the owners works at the, ah, the very famous food co op in Brooklyn, and he brings in, you know, massive amounts of delicious cheeses and accoutrements and crackers. So we took our cheese day online. That was our biggest, biggest pivot. Um, you know, for us, Covid, I mean, there was still a need for things, right. I think, um, people went online shopping more than they ever have before. But, you know, for us, the pivot in Covid was to not take things for granted. I mean, we had taken for granted that everybody was, would be shopping in a certain way, um, in a certain style and at a certain pace for a really long time. And we had to relearn a ton of things. Never in my life did I think I'd have to understand trade routes and shipping supplies and container sizes. Right. If you had said to me 40Q before COVID I'd have looked at you like you had four heads. But now I understand that that's a 40 foot container, that's oversized, that can go into certain ports and need certain chassis when it comes off a language I never wanted to have to learn. But we all had to learn different things quite quickly so that we could all become valuable in the conversation. Um, and we had to learn how to talk about our business to retailers in a way we'd never talked before. Um, the cost of goods could go up every couple of years just because, you know, that's Inflation. That's how the market works. But all of a sudden everything cost more and more. And where I was never transparent with retailers about shipping costs and landed cost and cost of goods and labor costs. And I never said how long things really took to make because who cares, right? If you don't want to know how the stuff is made, you just want it to show up at your door so you can sell it. And being able to sort of speak openly about the process in from creation, in someone's brain and of dream at 2am to in your store is so much longer. And in what Covid did is make it even longer. And everyone had to learn patience. And uh. Right. And it was our job to, to say, I'm sorry, I can't help you. Like, this product isn't going to arrive for this. And I know you really are desperate for the red pair of sneakers, but I don't have the red pair of sneakers and nobody has the red pair of sneakers. But I've got the green pair and the blue pair. So let's be grateful we have sneakers and let's try to make something happen here. So, um, I would say that's really more of our pivot. We didn't change our product line, um, because we, like I said, we obsess over our customer. So our customers still wanted it. You know, Covid or not Covid, the things we were making were still relevant and important, but it was how we told the story of how it got to you, the retailer, and how we were able to manage the process. And that that's was a learning experience than anything else.

Speaker A: I feel like a lot of retailers, a lot of us really needed to know that in the beginning anyway, because, yes, things cost more. And it's like I still hear people like, oh my God, like, I can't believe how expensive it is. And it's like, what did you think? Like, and even like, even like New York now, it was a smaller show and I was at a store, I was at RW Guild and I was shopping and there's a lady that had one of the trade show bags and I'm like, oh, I see you exited the show. And she's like, I can't believe there's like hardly anyone there. And like, and, uh, there it was so small. And it's almost like the retailers forgot that the show had to recoup as well. It's like it's not going to magically go back to what it was like pre Covid. Like, they also are having struggles just like you as a retailer. And it's like that. That patience thing, it's like it's going to come back and it's gonna look different. But to assume and be like, oh, I just.

Speaker B: It's.

Speaker A: I can't believe it's just not the same. No, it's not. It's probably never gonna be the same, but, you know, P.S. either. Is your store like it? And a lot. I think a lot of people, retailers, because their business ramped up so much. I mean, like, everybody was busy. And I think now what I'm having to tell my retailers is like, it is. People are like, oh, my gosh, it's so slow now. We're so slow. I'm, um, like, well, what does it look like compared to your 2019 numbers? And. And if. And it have. You had growth from 2019, like, is if Covid didn't happen, you didn't have all that crazy business, and they're like, well, yeah, then we're up about 20%. I'm like, there you go. I mean, Covid was a beautiful gift in the sense of, you, uh, had time off. You didn't want it, but you had time off. Um, it came with a lot of pain in the ass. But all sudden it was like you had major business, and it was like you couldn't keep stuff in fast enough. So it was like, you know, it's now. I think now the. Everything's settling and, you know, the system and supply chain and all that. But I think retailers. I. I think retailers should know what it takes to put it out. So you. They do understand the chain of why it may be more expensive now. And I mean, not that it shouldn't be obvious, because I don't understand how nobody thinks it's not more expensive after everything we've gone through.

Speaker B: But the reality is, you know, uh, vendors like myself, you know, we did a great job of making it seem like magic, making it seem seemless.

Speaker A: 100%.

Speaker B: That's great. Um, you know, one of the. My. My other hat that I wear is I work, um, with the ghta, which is the Gift and Home Trade association, and I actually sit on their. And one of the big webinars that we're having coming up is about vendor margins. And I think, you know, there's always conversations about retailer margins. Um, and everyone could just really do better in learning more about their partners. Right. I think that's really crucial to sort of bring it back to that beginning of this conversation. It's that active listening. We all have to Be actively listening to our partners and understand more. So I think retailers do a fairly good job at, of explaining to people, well, this is my rent and this is my staff and this is my labor, and this is why you need to give me Keystone Plus.

Speaker A: I'm like nodding my head, right?

Speaker B: But vendors don't do this great job. And one of the steps that this webinar is hopefully going to do is begin that conversation. And once again, it's not giving away the secret sauce. It's not confidential information, but it's. Does everybody understand how much tariffs are. Does everyone understand how much containers are? Um, port labor, extra shipping on trucks, you know, labor to get it to the warehouse. And then if you need price stickers on it, because you have to have a special price sticker with the name of your store on it like that, I've got to pay someone 50 cents a sticker to put that on. I mean, all these costs, we need to be better at explaining what they are because nobody has infinite margin. And to be able to just be a little bit more honest and understand everyone's gotta hurt a little so that we could all make the most money. Um, because this is a business, right? I'm not here to lose money. The store is not there to lose money. The customer wants to spend money but feel like they got a good deal for the value. They, it was, you know, that, uh, ah, they walked out happy. So how do we make all this work? And I think it really comes down to that concept of being honest and being transparent so that we could all see how it works together and then just build these better relationships to get this community back.

Speaker A: So I'm going to ask you a question because this just popped in my head because we hear it a lot as retailers. So I would love to hear what your take on it is. And you know what I'm going to say, right? What about I. The, uh, it's always a fear. Uh, uh, not always, but there's a lot of fear based around Amazon. And my customer can just pull it up in the store and she can look at the price and she can buy it on Amazon. I will tell you my answer and then I want to hear your answer, because my answer is humans are instant gratification. People are standing in your store and yes, they may look at the Amazon price, but instant gratification, they want it, right? Then they don't want it. They're going to order it maybe, and it will come the next day or a couple days later. But humans are instant gratification. And if you put in the customer service element and exactly what you were talking about earlier of, you know, know, being that person on the other end, who's going to wrap it, who's going to check and see how they're. Did your, did your friend love their new gift? Or blah, blah. Amazon's never going to do that. Like, Amazon's going to never remember your child's birthday or how's your dog? Or bring your dog out a bowl of water. Like, that's just not going to happen. Amazon's always going to be there. And that is very much a, uh, reality. But I think that if you as a retailer make the experience totally different, that one or two fucking dollars that they're going to save there, you're not going to lose that sale and you're still going to lose some. But honestly, like, I think that if you pair it with that customer service and that experience, that, that two, one or two dollars that the person's going to say is not. It's like, whatever, I need it now. Like, I'd rather get it from you. You wrap it beautifully. You care. What's your answer?

Speaker B: My answer is going to come in the form of a story. So I was at a trade show also in Las Vegas. And, um, I have my computer. Like, like most people, I have stickers of stickers, lots of different things. And one of the stickers I have is the quote to the stars who listen and the dreams that are answered. And it's a quote from a romance novel that I'm obsessed with. And I really, really love it and came by and she instantly recognized it's like a cult. When you know the quote, you know the quote, you're in the. You're in the cult. She instantly recognized it. And we started having a conversation. Well, it turns out she owns an independent bookstore. And then she, like, takes out a piece of paper in this conversation, and she's like, like, have you read this? Have you read this? Have you read this? And, oh, I really think you'd like this. And at the end of the conversation, we have about 20 books on a piece of paper. And she rips it off the notepad as we're wrapping up. And she hands it to me as she's leaving. And I said, what are you doing? She said, well, this is the list of books. You have to go get all these. And I said, yeah, but you own a bookstore, so the next thing you should do is just ask me for my credit card and then you're going to send Me, all these books. Books. I said don't, don't let me just walk off. I used your knowledge, I used your, um, you know, your history. You know, you spent all your time reading these books and curating this. You know, if I go to Amazon, Maybe I've saved $2 on a book. I never would have found any of these. And you know, we had this like Kumbaya moment and a big hug. But, you know, she went back to her store, she sent me all these, this, the, this entire, um, list of books. I loved every single one of them. And now she's my ghost. I live in New York City and I have a woman in Missouri who packs my book orders for me because she's just, I love this story. Incredible curated experience. It's the Main street books. I'm totally going to give her a shout out because she's amazing. Um, and she. It's just really wonderful. So look, as a vendor, I understand the importance of meeting the customer where they want to shop. There's just customers who want to shop on Amazon. So let them shop on Amazon on. But I think for the person who doesn't know what they want is looking for that uniqueness, that discoverability. That's why independent stores have to look creative and different and fresh and keep their inventory changing because that offers a different experience. It's that whole experiential purpose. You know, I want to have an experience when I go to a store, whether it's how I'm warmly greeted or the way the signage is or the colors change or the, the display always changes, I want it to feel, you know, different and fun. And to answer the real question, which I totally, ah, know that was telling the story is I think it's really crucial for a vendor to understand the perception of value and price. And I think it's really key that you, if you are going to sell on Amazon as a vendor, you have to be aware that showrooming, which is that thing you just talked about where someone sees a mug in a store and they pull it up on Amazon and they're like, oh, what's the term showrooming? Your store as a showroom, okay, you know that it exists. And I think you have to be as proactive as possible to keep the price on Amazon at the level that your store would be selling it at. And that's just the reality. So for instance, at the, at the Guild, we have um, a policy in place where we don't allow Amazon resellers. We are the only reseller on Amazon. And that price is the same price as our website. And that same price as if you were to do like a 2.5, you know, markup.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: More than that, you know, then networks in your market, if you're selling it less than you've got the deal. But I think it's really crucial that you're just aware of the value of your product and how it's perceived and where you're selling it.

Speaker A: Okay, uh, I. We're getting long in here, and I'm totally fine. Getting long because I. I'm a talker. But you just touched on something, and now I want to talk about it because we never talk about this in the podcast. And it's 1.2.55. Um, it makes me insane to go to showrooms, apparel and gift, and they're like, this is, um. I'm holding something up for those of you who are watching. But, um, this is $27 and we sell it for 2.0. I'm like. On your website. And they're like, yeah. I'm like, well, who's paying the freight? And. And. Or where you. Where you like lines? Like, um, I forget who, but what they do. Holiday packaging, like personal care. Holiday packaging. They'll pack it together, a lotion, a gel and a soap bar, and you buy it for 22. And they have a sticker on it that's MSRP for 44. I'm like, uh, are you paying the shipping, like, for retailers? And there's a lot of retailers that still go by the 2.0 markup. And 2.0. Keystone is not even covering your freight. Like, I can't put it. I. I have to say, like, 2.5 is the lowest markup you should be working on. And I know this is a total random. I'm really going to go off now. But 2.5 is the lowest you should go. That. That is literally paying at least your freight. Especially now with how high freight prices are. Like, I was really bad when I had my stores. Like, I didn't even look at freight. What was. When I had my stores at Fred Siegel, I literally would open up the po and that's when we were working on Keystone. And it's like, you're talking about, like, 15 boxes of apparel that must weigh at least 30 pounds each. And I wasn't looking at the freight price and I wasn't building it into my costume. I mean, what an idiot. But people are still doing that. And I just, I felt like, because you touched on it, that I had to like, go down that wormhole. Sorry, everyone.

Speaker B: No, it's really important. It's really important. And I think that, you know, the reality is Keystone for so long as what we all did our pricing on. And it's. It's really a, um, new revolution that, you know, to say keystone is dead. Um, but you have to factor these things in and you have to really understand the price. And I think that the more the cost of goods has gone up, the more the corresponding retail price has to go up. And that's another thing, is people have to. It's. It's going to be a lot of training to the customer. Things you spent $5 on in the past are just not $5 anymore. Um, so there's tension. Right? It's a pain point. It's something we're all working on. And hopefully people did it in slow enough steps that it sort of incrementally built up. Um, but it's probably a conversation for another time, but it's a crucial part of this transparency and this open. And I feel like this conversation that I'm starting to have, um, with the education group at GHTA on margins is that way to help explore, um, and what we're looking at. And, you know, it's also very different just to say, since we talked about it, you know, a small, independent mom and pop and a chain and a big, huge supersize store. I mean, all of them have to have different expectations of Keystone because all of them have different expectations of distribution and warehousing and freight. Um, so it becomes like. It just becomes, you know what? We've just hit the tip and it's a massive iceberg that we'll have to save for another time.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love this conversation. I'm going to ask you two questions that I ask everybody at the end of it. I'm sure you've heard them. Is you are obviously very busy. What does, um. How do you find balance and where do you find inspiration?

Speaker B: Um, so I find balance in, um. This is a weird thing to say, but I found it in breathing. It's really, really important to breathe.

Speaker A: Breathing or reading breathing.

Speaker B: Okay, in, out, in, out, in, out. I think it's just absolutely crucial in moments of stress and in moments of happiness, you have to remember to breathe in the good and breathe out the bad. Um, and if you're not doing that, you know, at the start of every day, at the close of every day, and, you know, I. Even before this podcast, I did, like, three really deep cleansing breaths to just center myself, and that Is the balance. Um, and also. Let's do it, science. Oxygen creates energy, and energy gives you the ability to just do and do and do and do, which is really, uh, crucial. Um, and then inspiration. You know, you just keep your eyes open. I like to sit in a cafe with a cup of coffee, and I like to watch the world around me. I want to see what people are wearing. I want to see how they interact. I want to see what they're carrying. You know, I love to ride the subway here in New York to see what people are reading and their accessories. And inspiration is everywhere. You just have to keep your eyes open. Don't look down. Just look. Look up.

Speaker A: Oh, my God, I love you so much. Um, the last one is what is a piece of advice that you would. I'm going to say, what is a piece of advice you're going to. You would give retailers today?

Speaker B: Oh. Oh, this is a tricky one. This is a hard one. There's so much I want to tell retailers. Um, but ultimately it's that it's a. It's a long game. And don't be afraid to have conversations. You know, ask for what you need, ask for what you want, but be open to the conversation, uh, because there's someone else on the other end of that and they want to support you and they want to help you. We just got to work through it.

Speaker A: I love this conversation so much. You have no idea. Like, I knew I loved you when we connected the show, and there's just something about you and now sitting here talking to you for an hour, like, I know why, like, you, you have this energy that is so good. And like Fred Siegel used to say, energy creates energy. And, sister, you created it. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me here. And I hope we just continue conversation. That's what. Yes. All the time.

Speaker A: And that's a wrap. The Retail Heart podcast is produced by myself, Michelle Sherrier and the amazing team over at Pod Fixers. A special thank you to my assistant, Danielle, because, let's face it, none of this would happen without her. If you love this podcast, and I know you do, please like and, um, subscribe to our YouTube channel. Also, if you would leave us a review, I would truly appreciate it. Your review reviews help us move up in the rankings. You can leave one anywhere that you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to any of the episodes that have happened in the past@retailhor.com. you can also leave us a review there. Thanks, guys. We'll see you next week.