The Retail Insider Podcast Network · 2025-09-22 · 21 min
Silk and Snow began in 2017 as a mattress-in-a-box company built around a local Toronto supply chain, then expanded into bedding and furniture starting in 2020. The brand was acquired by Sleep Country Canada in early 2023 and has since grown to 10 physical locations by end of 2024, alongside its original e-commerce presence. Chow explains the business never saw online and offline as separate channels but rather complementary touchpoints - customers typically research online but convert in-store after experiencing products tactilely. The conversation covers product expansion plans (new bed frames, sofa colors, living room category growth), the decline of department stores like Hudson's Bay, and how specialty retailers now dominate home goods distribution in Canada. Chow notes a shift away from big-box and department store dominance toward smaller, experiential retail footprints focused on visual merchandising and showrooming. He also touches on increased "patriotic buying" supporting Canadian brands amid tariff concerns, and the challenge of maintaining brand experience when distributing through partner retailers versus owned-and-operated stores.
Hosted by Retail Insider Canada, Lee Rivett, Craig Patterson. The show scores 51.0/100 on substance across its analysed episodes. See the full show profile.
Since the early 2023 acquisition, Silk and Snow has continued expanding its product assortment beyond mattresses into bedroom and living room furniture while leveraging Sleep Country's physical retail and digital footprint; the brand operates both standalone showrooms and co-branded locations within Sleep Country stores.
Customers typically begin their journey researching online but complete purchases in physical locations; Silk and Snow operates 10 standalone and co-branded retail locations as of late 2024 (up from zero two years prior) while maintaining its e-commerce channel, viewing both as complementary rather than competing channels.
The brand found it challenging to maintain its own experience and brand personality when distributed through partner retailers, so it prioritized building its own store network to better control visual merchandising, showrooming, and overall customer experience.
The brand plans to introduce new bed frame styles, expand its sofa product line with new colors, and continue refreshing existing categories rather than entering entirely new ones, focusing on depth within bedroom and living room furniture.
Hudson's Bay's closure removed a major distribution channel for mattresses and bedding, but Silk and Snow and other specialty retailers have seen positive customer migration toward their standalone brands and smaller, more focused retail experiences.
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
Craig Patterson and Albert Chow , co-founder & CEO at Silk & Snow , discussed the company’s origins and growth trajectory. Launched in 2017 as a mattress-in-a-box brand, Silk & Snow quickly distinguished itself by leveraging Toronto’s local manufacturing ecosystem. From the beginning, the brand emphasized thoughtful design, supply chain transparency, and strong relationships with family-owned manufacturers, eventually expanding into bedding, bedroom furniture, and living room essentials. Chow highlighted the pivotal role of Silk & Snow’s 2023 acquisition by Sleep Country Canada in accelerating the company’s expansion. While the brand began with mattresses, its timely pivot during the pandemic into bedding and furniture positioned it for long-term growth. Today, Silk & Snow complements Sleep Country’s digital and retail presence, with showrooms and shop-in-shop concepts across Canada. The company currently operates seven standalone stores, aiming to reach 10 by year’s end, with further plans to grow to 15 locations.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: Foreign
Speaker B: welcome to the Retail Insider video interview series. I'm your host Craig Patterson and we're joined here today with a special guest. This is Albert Chow. He's co founder and CEO of betting brand Silk and Snow. Welcome Albert.
Speaker A: Thanks Greg. Thanks for having me.
Speaker B: Now for those who uh, aren't familiar, I certainly am. Tell us a little bit about the Silk and Snow brand.
Speaker A: And how you started was really by accident. Um, my co founder and I started uh, Silk and snow in 2017 and it was really at the tail end of the shift when um, mattresses were really shifting online in terms of sales. And we were just curious about the form factor and how you could get a mattress in a box. And uh, through our journey of really investigating the supply chain and mattress manufacturing, we actually discovered that ah, a large ecosystem of the supply chain existed in our backyard in Toronto. Um, so we were pretty shocked to find that. But one of the nice things was it did kind of instill uh, some of the values that you see today with the rest of uh, the Silk and Snow product line which goes across all home goods including bedding furniture and um, these days, uh, uh, living room furniture and bedroom furniture. Um, uh, so we've always had uh, a very consc and thoughtful uh, approach to our supply chain and working with local manufacturers or working with family owned manufacturers that care a lot about the details as much as we do and really leveraging the local supply chain to really create products that really we believe in and we're very proud of.
Speaker B: Now did the product expansion happen after the acquisition, uh, by Sleep Country Canada or. Tell me a little bit about uh, how that's all been because obviously it started with mattresses and now we have all kinds of other products and even retail stor source which we'll get into talking a little bit more. But uh, tell me a bit about the acquisition with uh, um, Sleep Country Canada and how that's impacted things here so far.
Speaker A: We, I think grew up a little bit differently at Silk and Snow. Like we started in 2017 and really started as a bed in the box company. But one of the things we really differentiated our business in our space, uh, was really the thought of selling the entire space. And that included everything from the mattress to bedding and furniture. And we started that journey probably uh, very timely in 2020 when it was the start of the pandemic. It was actually by accident because I think for us, uh, we always were a little bit more conscious of the aesthetic of our products and really just changing the experience of mattress shopping to Be one that people could get excited over. Um, I think many people think of a mattress purchase as a grudge purchase. But when you round out the rest of the bedroom with bedding and furniture, uh, it becomes a lot more of an exciting journey. So we started that journey of uh, selling and expanding our assortment beyond the mattress to bedding and furniture around 2020. Um, and that was really our path to growth. We started discussions with Sleep country maybe in 2022 or late 2021 and, and um, probably talked for longer than we wanted to. Uh, but eventually uh, uh, we agreed to partner with them and Silken Snow was acquired uh, by the beginning of 2023. So we've been about two and a half years into our journey within the Sleep country family. And uh, through that um, uh, I would say we've continued down the path of growing our swimming room, particularly on the furniture side. Um, bedroom has always been a place that uh, we focused on, but uh, more recently we've also focused on expanding our assortment to the living room category within sofa products. And um, we've just complemented Sleep country and their physical uh, and digital retail footprint uh, really, really well over the last two and a half years.
Speaker B: Well that's excellent. You can find the products in the stores of course online where the brand got started and now we're seeing some standalone showrooms. I've uh, actually lost track. Uh, what do we have in terms of standalone uh, shops as well as the, I guess the side by side stores that we've got with some of the Sleep country and other brands like say Casper and Indy.
Speaker A: Earlier in the year when we interviewed with Retail, uh, Insider, we were on this ambitious plan to get to 15 stores by the end of the year. Um, even with the best efforts, we're at seven right now and we've got three more exciting launches by the end of the year which will bring us to 10. But uh, we're very much on track with where we want to be. Um, I think it's a matter of time, uh, that we'll get to the 15 stores. But at this moment we're at seven, which is a lot for us given that two years ago we didn't have one.
Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's still really, really impressive. I wouldn't. Yeah, seven to ten in a year is, is more than most would expect, certainly, especially given the current, I guess, economy in Canada. Not necessarily around sleep or bedding, but just around consumers generally and the fact that a lot of people are struggling. We've had inflation go up, the cost of living and everything else that we've heard in the news. Uh, you know, consumers have, you know, can have limited dollars, I guess you'd say.
Speaker A: Definitely.
Speaker B: Now, are there any, uh, product categories that uh, or even just general ones we can talk about that maybe haven't been released yet? That's probably a secret. Uh, for Silk and Snow, our thought
Speaker A: processes, we, we try to continue to keep, uh, the newness of, of a lot of our product lines by refreshing the product lines and introducing new things and retiring older products. So we, uh, do have a number of exciting product launches within the categories that we, we have today. Um, maybe a couple of new bed frames, um, an expansion of some of our sofa products, some new colors. Uh, it's, it's a lot of what we've been doing over the last few years, but I wouldn't say that there's anything dramatic that uh, uh, uh, is entirely different from what customers are used to at Silk and Snow.
Speaker B: Tell me about the name Silk and Snow. I mean, it's such a lovely name. Uh, how did it come about when, when it was. When. Whenever it was chosen? I don't know if it was right at the beginning when the brand was founded, but uh, tell me a bit more about that as well.
Speaker A: This is probably the non PR answer, but it was incredibly difficult to find a domain name or one that wasn't already occupied. So I think that was priority. But I think we always had a mind towards, um, keeping our Canadian roots. And uh, Snow kind of represented one aspect of that. Ah, the other aspect was that we always felt that um, our business would continue to grow within bedding and luxury home goods. And, and so we thought the pairing of Silk and Snow was very representative of maybe the, the products and emotions that we were trying to evoke.
Speaker B: I love it. No, because it's such a pleasant name. I like it. And the Snow part, like you said, kind of assume it might be a Canadian brand just because we're associated with Snow, unfortunately, as we come into the fall. But, and with Silk and Snow, obviously the brand started online, but, uh, um, what are you seeing in terms of, I guess from a high level, in terms of sales? Are people still buying stuff more online? Obviously you can now find, uh, the products far more in stores than you could in the past. Are people gravitating more to the physical or, or how are you seeing people interacting with the product and making their purchases?
Speaker A: It's weird because I, I feel like that answer changes, uh, every year. Um, I, I think if I look Back to like 2019, 2020, a lot of us were that were digitally native, um, built our brand in that manner. But um, there was this slow trend towards moving towards physical uh. I remember when we were evaluating our industry and our business the penetration rate was probably in the mid teens for E commerce and I don't think it's changed very much. Obviously uh, it's trended upwards but not dramatically. But I think a lot of um, our business uh, there was a huge swing towards online obviously in 2020, 2021 and 2022. But then we also saw a huge shift back to physical retail where uh, there was more of a component of the customers wanting to experience the products. And that's really when we uh, start to go down this journey of building out our physical experience within our brand. Um, we've been two and a half years into that and we have seen a slow trend towards customers uh, wanting um, to have kind of both experience. So I think maybe the um,
Speaker B: the
Speaker A: difference in the way we see our business is that uh, we don't see them as distinct channels. We just see them as, as different ways in which the customer gets to um, get to know our, our brand. A lot of it starts online but most of it actually ends up offline in terms of when they convert and when they, they purchase the product.
Speaker B: We're hearing that from a lot of retailers is that you know this cross shopping, it's kind of, you know be, be with the consumer wherever they are and but probably with things like bedding and furniture people are going to like a little, you know, maybe to see it or maybe even lay on the mattress and whatnot. Uh, even though a lot of the reviews I've seen for a lot of these mattresses, people just love them. That's, I mean I own one so I can say that I do and I sleep on it so and, and I'm hopefully well rested. But it's. Yeah they're, they're really great and uh, quite a difference we never had those years ago. Uh, it was always just those mattresses that you'd see in a store that were laid out on display and were quite large and weren't originally rolled up.
Speaker A: I guess I'm still really shocked these days even though our business has grown quite a bit uh when people buy a mattress online. But I really do feel that most customers, they do want to experience it both uh, from an information gathering perspective online, but also touch and feel and tactile uh, and comfort, uh, it typically ends up offline. So it's uh, A little bit of both.
Speaker B: Let's talk a bit about the Canadian retail industry. I just want to have a general conversation as well because there's lots happening here. I guess the first thing I even wanted to ask for you is are you seeing anything uh, new around any trends? Uh, you've obviously got uh, retail experience from your perspective at Silk and Snow and then watching the industry generally. Um, uh, is there anything that you're noticing that's you know, either concerning or remarkable or tell me about uh, what you're thinking over the last few months here.
Speaker A: What's curious is kind of uh, how there's a trend towards um, moving away from department stores and, and big box retailers occupying um, uh, a more prominent space within consumers looking for everyday value. Um, for us I think one of the difficult things is trying to figure out how these shifts will play a part in our long term plans because it's moving so quickly, especially in our categories where a lot of the department stores have occupied home goods. Um, but I would say maybe the surprising trend for me in our space is that uh, a lot of um, our category is moving towards a much smaller footprint where experience matters and just appropriate uh, visual merchandising and showrooming matters. I um, think the concept of uh, um, maybe what you use the retail space for in terms of how much of it is cash and carrier versus its purchase online is changing quite a bit. But uh, otherwise I think we're experiencing things that are very similar to a lot of other uh, industries within retail.
Speaker B: And you mentioned big box and department stores. And personally I'm still so sad about Hudson's Bay. This is I guess right now would be the first time on the Retail Insider podcast that I even addressed or talked about the closure of Hudson's Bay. Uh, which is remarkable because we're recording this in early September of 2025 and the Hudson Bay company had uh, filed for creditor prot in uh, March of 2025 and liquidated. All the stores closed I think on or before June 1st. Uh, just anyways, I, I just can't believe it happened. I mean that's something I don't think had to happen. I mean there's a lot of theories. We don't have to rehash it all because it's been discussed in the news at length. But it's just such a shock to think that uh, uh, we won't have these department stores. We can tie this into bedding a bit because I don't think silk and Snow products were at Hudson's Bay. I did see Casper Mattresses uh, in the past certainly when it was a retailer.
Speaker A: Yeah. Um, and it's interesting because I think uh, with Hudson's Bay, two of the strongest categories were um, home goods, particularly bedding and beauty. And um. Yeah, I guess without getting into it too far down the path of what went wrong. I do feel like the Bay wasn't representative of maybe what has happened within our categories in our industry. I think those two categories, they, they've done incredibly well at other retailers. And I remember like my experience going into the Bay is that uh, and even recently, right, right up until they, they winded up things, um, the retail environment just looked a little bit tired. Um, I remember seeing escalators that weren't working. Visual merchandising that was a little bit old. Um, but yeah, I do think that um, uh the positive thing is uh, they were one of uh, the retailers that was the go to destination for mattresses and bedding. And uh, since then um, I don't think if anything we felt a very positive impact to um, uh, where the customers have headed towards um, what they're looking for in that category.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I don't actually know what market share Hudson's Bay had for home uh, furnishings in Canada. Something I'd have to look up because I couldn't tell you at the top of my head. But I know for app, um, Trendex had said uh, that Hudson's bay had about 2.2% of apparel sales in Canada. Which is not a lot really when you think about it. Well it's not. We don't really think about it that much. But uh, I do think at the same time though, I think about some of the brands that had been in Hudson's Bay that weren't available elsewhere in Canada. And, and I guess also even just things like. I guess I got used to buying things like socks and underwear and other items and I'm thinking wait a minute, where am I going to get these things? They're just small and I didn't even think that. I didn't realize I was buying them at Hudson's Bay. But it became a habit. I'm sure a lot of Canadians are like that.
Speaker A: I think there's still a lot of nostalgia in terms of the products and the experience and what customers are used to seeing. Um, I think it's kind of been a slow shift over time to other alternatives. But um, it will be interesting to see how some of these brands uh, uh, maybe materialize again. I don't think they've gone away. But um, uh, maybe the distribution through uh, uh, the Bay and where a lot of these brands have chosen to, to um, uh, sell through the bay have um, changed uh, quite a bit and uh, are really looking for a new home. But uh, in the meantime I hope uh, the alternative is us in a lot of these categories.
Speaker B: I think it probably would be. And even over the years I think department stores were competing with more specialty retailers in whatever category. You know. Yeah, you had you know, smaller specialized retailers that you know, had nice stores that would sell apparel. You'd have, you know, obviously furniture retailers were not so you know, bricklayons, bedding, sleep country. Canada I think has that pretty much nailed down in Canada in terms of. That's my number one of bedding. But uh, yeah, I mean the department store certainly had a lot of competition. And then to round it off, I remember even. Goodness, I remember even in the 80s and 90s the uh, Eaton's and, and Sears and Woodwards, they were all competing also on price. You know they would have sales but then, then along came Walmart and Costco. I mean uh, it's hard to compete on price when you're dealing with retailers that are selling really valuable, really value price goods. I should say not valuable necessarily. But yeah, it's just, it's over time I think that the department store changed as the Canadian retail landscape changed because it's a much bigger story obviously.
Speaker A: Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what they do with all the real estate uh, that it used to occupy. But um. Uh, yeah, it's been playing out for a while as a lot of the examples you talked about. Um, it's. It's been a slow trend and this seems to me the final one that that's fallen.
Speaker B: There could be a whole. We won't continue the conversation today, but a whole conversation around what's the future of the shopping center. I just think of. I remember when I was. Well when we were all younger, you know, we had uh. Well, several department stores probably in a shopping mall and it was either a bell bar design or an anchor design. And uh, those anchors now could become movie theaters or winners or you know, whatever retailers or other non retail uh, are being put in. In some cases pickleball courts where that makes sense and it's beautiful. Yeah, all kinds of stuff. And direct, direct to consumer brands. I want to talk about that because. Well, we can tie this back into Hudson's Bay because one of the brands um, that was in Hudson's Bay and it did quite well was Rod and Gun, uh, New Zealand based fashion brand uh, for Men and had uh, a number of concessions in Hudson's Bay. It started at 38 and I honestly don't know what the number was towards. Towards the end it might have been the same but uh, now what they've done is uh, they're opening pop up stores all over the country and testing out markets and uh, seeing where they can be successful having their own stores that are standalone and not as a partner or concession in a department store.
Speaker A: Oh, interesting. I think in our own, in our own space we've been trying to understand really the, the, the, the fit with um, uh, other retailers distributing our products. Like I, I do feel like uh, it's always a challenge uh to maintain brand experience when you're using another uh, partner, um, and trying to fit within their space. So that's, that's always been a challenge. And um, we for us and a lot of the direct to consumer brands that are, are a part of the Sleep country family, we've found that there's just been a lot more success in maintaining our own experience and maybe working together to expand the, the physical footprint. I do find um, a lot of uh, retailers are uh, or consumers are more open to the idea of specialty retailers. And obviously that's very different than a department store experience. And um, they're okay with a much smaller shopping experience in terms of a retail footprint and having things that are specialized and, and specific to the category that they're looking for. So yeah, we've always been challenged with that. Uh, I know some of our sister brands like Casper have been retailed at uh, the Bay. But we've always found that it's much easier to maintain that experience within our own network of Sleep country stores.
Speaker B: That's a trend we've seen I think across the board is a lot of brands now want to have their own stores. I guess it also speaks to the strength of brands to an extent because not that they weren't you know, very important before, but I think now more than ever, uh, having a strong brand is important because people are going to gravitate towards that name recognition. And also there's just a lot of distraction because uh, across all kinds of retail categories there's all kinds of competition, uh, brands that are established, new brands coming in, some that are stronger than others. But uh, uh, I think having a strong brand is, is important. Which I would put Silk and Snow into that category by the way.
Speaker A: Thank you. Yeah. I think maybe one of the trends is that your brand does have to stand for something. And I think the younger consumers, they, they really value authenticity and, and maybe, uh, a brand personality. And, and I think, um, uh, that's one thing that I think was lost in maybe a department store, uh, or wholesale type of retailer. Um, and one thing that, uh, you know, we've, we've benefited from is, is the trend of just having. Having a focus on, on what you stand for and, and uh, being able to have products that speak towards that.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And are we seeing, I wonder if we're seeing a boost in, uh, Canadian retailers and Canadian brands right now. I'm just thinking, of course, around the, you know, Donald Trump narrative, Tara, all that other stuff.
Speaker A: Well, this is the second time it's happened. Um, like, I, uh, I mean, this is the second term that we've experienced this. But, um, one thing that I'm constantly surprised about is, uh, the degree of patriotic buying this time around and how sustained it is. And I, I think it does really touch on, on a consumer sediment of how, how much, uh, consumers now care about supporting local and, and homegrown Canadian businesses. And I think this was notably different than the first time around.
Speaker B: I know that I've been shopping more well, definitely buying Canadian whenever I can. So, uh.
Speaker A: Yeah, me too.
Speaker B: This has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for joining us here today. Albert.
Speaker A: Thanks so much for having me. Craig, always a pleasure.
Speaker B: This has been Albert Chow. He's the CEO and co founder of Silk and Snow. And I'm Craig Patterson. I'm the founder and publisher of Retail Insider, as well as the host of the Retail Insider video interview series. Thank you so much for joining us here today. And be sure to subscribe if you haven't already on whatever platform you're consuming this on or would like to subscribe to consume this on. Thank you again for joining us. Take care and bye for now.
Speaker A: Sam.
