261 - The Last Conversation W/ Jim Bouchard

Speaker A: Electric Assets.

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Speaker C: It's not about the corner office. It's not about the fancy title. It's not even about the extra money. Responsible Leadership is about taking care of those who choose to follow you. And that care takes on many forms. This podcast is dedicated to bringing you the best guests with the best advice to help you succeed in that endeavor. The Responsible Leadership Podcast is a production of the Leadership Phalanx. To find out more about me and what I do, visit leadershipphalanx.com that's leadership P H A L A N X.com and now onto today's show. All right listeners, hello and welcome to this, this final episode of the Responsible Leadership podcast. Uh, as I say, we saved the best for last. I've got longtime friend, second time guest, Mr. Jim Bouchard with us today. Jim, thanks for being my, uh, my final guest on the show.

Speaker D: Sir, I can't tell you what an honor this is. This is really cool. It has been a while, hasn't it?

Speaker C: It has. It was looking uh, August 19th, episode 10 back in August 2019. And uh, you know, for those of you who uh, weren't around then or haven't went back and listened to episode, you know, Jim is an outstanding speaker, karate, uh, hall of famer, all kinds of great stuff. I'll let, we'll see where we get into to that part of his backstory. But his sensei leadership movement and all the things he's done with that have just been fantastic. And uh, he's got a wealth of knowledge, just an outstanding individual. And when he was on the show the last time, we were still called the burden of command. So he's never answered this question. When you hear the words responsible leadership, what does responsible leadership mean to you? Jim?

Speaker D: Means you picked the wrong guest for this last, last podcast. Of course I know you're going to dream up something else to do too, but. No, well, because you know, you know, the backstory, I mean this whole thing started with anything but responsible, right? Uh, you know, the quick backstory, Um, I started young adulthood as a drug addict and had uh, to find my Way out of that mess. And that's what led me to martial arts. And I guess that's what started to teach me a little bit more about responsibility and, you know, what it meant to other people. Um, you know, that's an interesting trip because, you know, when somebody's in the state of addiction, uh, whether they want to realize it or not, they're. They're hurting some people around them. There's a responsibility that we might not be aware of at the time. Right. And so, you know, that was a large part of working my way out of it. Um, yeah. And here we are, the 30 year. Well, it was. God, how long has it been now? I was going to say 30 more than 30 years. Career in martial arts. And that accidentally led to the, to the speaking because people started to ask me to share, you know, some of the philosophy of the dojo out in real life. And particularly, uh, you know, it had a lot of resonance in leadership and, and still does. And, and here's where we are today. But, you know, what Sensei Leader is all about, um, started with, uh, started with a question that I had for myself and my instructors is what. What is a sensei? Exactly? What, what exactly does a sensei do? And after a couple of years of thinking about it, we arrived at three, three basic words. We call them the essential disciplines that a leader needs. And it's, uh, to inspire, to empower and to guide people. And no matter, you know, it has nothing to do with rank, title or position of authority. Uh, I strongly believe, and it's probably more important than ever these days. We are all leaders, whether we recognize it or not, whether we accept that responsibility or not. Because I love the word that you chose for the program because that's what it's all about, if we accept that responsibility. Because you're going to inspire somebody, you're going to empower people around you, you're going to guide them, you're going to do, you know, bring them to the right, right outcome or to the wrong outcome. Uh, that's the question. And I think that's where the responsibility part kicks in. Because, uh, you do have to realize, even if you don't think so, uh, you've got an impact on the lives of people around you. And uh, and that's what's important. That's how, that's why it's so important to acknowledge that responsibility and decide how you're, you know, how you're going to manage that. What are you going to do with that resource.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And I Think that piece there is so valuable that you highlighted there. And I hope my listeners really honed in on that is whether you realize or not you're going to. And I think that's the piece whenever, you know, because I agree with you. I think we're all leaders in some way, shape or form. You know, it may not be a formal authoritative type, you may not have the title. It may just be by, by your example, you know, how are you driving down the road? Are you using your turn signal? Or are you driving crazy and flipping people off? You're leading somebody watching you, how you Dr. And setting an example. It's that simple. Sometimes leadership.

Speaker D: How are you raising your family? Right? And uh, right. It's interesting because you know that uh, my passion as far as charitable work goes is working with incarcerated kids. And it's interesting because a lot of times they'll deny that, that they're leaders. Right? Ah, I'm m not a leader. And you know, I did this, I did that. Um, I remember one poignant conversation I had with a kid a couple, just a couple of years ago after he had successfully led a pretty good sized riot in the facility. And I see, uh, you're a leader. And he said, what do you mean? I just, you know, I caused all this trouble. And I said, yeah, that's right. And uh, you got it started and those guys followed you, didn't they? Yeah, you inspired them. You inspired him to do no good. I said, and I'm laughing now in hindsight, but it was, that was a bad situation. They actually hurt somebody very, very badly and someone uh, who cared a great deal about them. So. But you know, he owned up to it, he accepted responsibility for it. He, you know, he started to move his, his life in a different direction. And that, hey, that's what you have to do. Um, that's an extreme case, you know, obviously. But to, to some extent, uh, even whether we want to or not, we're like I said, we're all in position where we're affecting other people's lives and sometimes it's for the better and then sometimes it's not even, even the people who try their best not to harm other folks. Uh, no, we have an impact and sometimes that's not, not always constructive. So that's part of the responsibility of leadership, right, Isn't it? Just understanding that, that our actions, our decisions are. And our actions mostly because that's the most inspirational thing about us. Right? People follow our actions more than anything else and we have to decide where it's going, what are the consequences? Measure them. Look and be willing to look in the mirror. And if it's going the wrong way, we say, hey, now we've got to change direction. And that's where the management part comes in. Right. Because someone who's, who's a leader in a larger organization, you're inevitably going to do some damage. I find very, very few people who will deny that. When we really roll up our sleeves and get talking, whether you want to or not, whether you intend to or not, there's going to be some damage. And, uh, you know, how you're gonna, how you're gonna deal with that? How are you gonna manage that? That's, that's critical.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, and again, like, like you, you just hit it. And I'm glad you kind of circled back on it a second time because I really hope people is like you are. You don't have a choice in it. It's up to the people who are watching you. Right? Like, like, like you. You don't, uh, that's, you know, I always start with, uh, you are always on display for that reason, because you don't know who's watching you. It could be somebody a block down the street that you don't even know is looking at what you're. You're watching. We, we do a lot of stuff on Zoom calls, Google Meets whatever now, right? It could be somebody watching a video you did.

Speaker D: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: You're never going to meet that person, but you are leading, influencing them.

Speaker D: Your Facebook post. You forgot about that tweet. Right. And how many. If we're going to stray into political leadership for just a second, how, how often does that come back to bite somebody in the rear end, Right?

Speaker C: Oh, yeah.

Speaker D: And you know, this, I hate to say it because it's, it has become almost a cliche if you say, uh, you know the words lead by example. How important is leading by example? I mean, you'll find very few people who will deny that. That's, you know, that's, that's one of the most critical, uh, parts of leadership. But at the same time, you have to ask yourself, you know, what is that example that you're putting out there? And is it, you know, and here's a great circle, uh, back to the martial arts life. Um, geez, I wish I could remember this guy's name. Wrote some great books. He was a martial artist and a psychologist, and he wrote some great books for kids. And he was trying to explain to parents why, when, when you come in the Dojo, we're so fussy about how the kids arrange the shoes. Right. Take off your shoes, and you arrange your shoes and your coats and make everything neat and clean. And really, the. The whole point of it, it's not about the shoes at all. It's about if you can discipline yourself to take care of the smallest details, then you're going to manage the bigger ones better. If you're careless about the small details, you're not likely to manage the big ones very well. And of course, you know, I'm looking at your Marine Corps flag over your shoulder. Right. Uh, how many times did you hear that in your Marine Corps life? How many, you know, during your training? How. How much emphasis was placed on the smallest details?

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker D: And. Right. That's where everything was. Was conditioned. And you weren't even given a bigger responsibility to you. You know, you could demonstrate that you could handle those smaller ones. Right?

Speaker C: Right. Yeah. You weren't even. You couldn't even go to the rifle range until you could clean the rifle. Right. Same basic concept. Right.

Speaker D: Well. And making your beds. Right. That. That's. That's a perfect parallel. Uh, in the dojo, we talk about the shoes, but all of my friends that served, you know, talked about that ritual. You had to. You had to make that bed. You had to tuck those corners. Everything had to be. And polish your buckles. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah. And the shoes, right. They gave us the diagram. You had to have the shoes, like, and there was the order, because we had. We had our jungle boots. We had our, uh, what we called our Cadillacs. We had our sneakers. They all had to be in the right order and the right angles and I mean, so, yeah, you're 100% right. But, yeah, until you could take care of the small things. And it was. It was a progression, and it was that way. And again. So I like that. That kind of tie in, because, you know, I think this is the one thing, and, you know, you've worked with a lot of organizations, uh, as well. I think that that progression of responsibility is the one thing that is really missing in a lot of. In a lot of organizations and a lot of leadership development programs. Right. Is we. We see a lot of people get in trouble. Like, they're. They're put in a, uh, in a formal leadership role, and then they start struggling. We ask, like, what is. Well, what is your development road look like? Well, I got promoted yesterday. Okay, well, how did you get prepared to be in this position? I got promoted yesterday. Um, nobody. Nobody prepared you. Nobody gave you Skills. No, no. I got promoted yesterday and now it's true.

Speaker D: And sadly today there's a lot of warm body promotions. Right. They just need somebody to fill that slot. No, uh, you're hitting on so many important points there. And you know, ultimately the greatest responsibility that a leader has when they're in. I like the way you, you termed it. Formal leadership position is the responsibility for the lives of others, for the development and the success of others. That's your job. In fact, that's, I would argue this. The only true measurement of a leader's success is the success of the people who trust in their leadership. Right. I mean if your people are successful, you're successful. If they fail, you fail. That's it. It's that simple. So to be able to accept that responsibility for the truly, for the lives and the livelihood of others when you're, we use the term management to separate it a little bit. Right, right. When you're promote, when you're in the hierarchy, we're going to call those management positions. Now it'd be nice if all managers were competent leaders. We all know that's not the case. Right.

Speaker C: 100 yeah.

Speaker D: So you know that, that's, that's the part of the development and you're right. And it always, it uh, always starts with the smaller things. Um, but once you're in that position too, I don't want to confuse smaller with, with the simple things because the more, and I learned this in my life as a martial artist, the most powerful things are usually the simplest things. They're also usually the hardest things to do and the hardest things to maintain discipline in. And that big one which is really, I'll tell you, it's, it's nice that it's coming around to it again, but it's also scary that it is this whole idea that the most important thing a leader can do is to care for the people that leader serves. You know, and if nothing else, then for the practical reason, I mean it's, it's just, it's bomb proof. People perform at their best when and only when they know their leaders care. That's number one. Their work has meaning and they have the chance to learn and grow and develop. Now that's, that's brutally simple, extremely hard to, to carry out. It requires a lot and it's not always efficient. Right. It's sometimes expensive and there's, there's where the, there's where the swords cross, I guess because uh, too many times in our society now we're looking for the efficiency we're looking for the. For the least expensive option. And, uh, no, we're talking about caring for other human beings. We can't take shortcuts.

Speaker C: Well, and again, that goes back to both being fans of Eastern philosophy. We go back to a text that was written almost 2600 years ago, Sun Tzu's Art of War. And one of those, uh, pieces was, uh, Sun Tzu says, uh, treat. Treat your soldiers as if they were your own precious sons. Right? And he's talking about that exact thing. So this is something. Again, we're talking about somebody who was a renowned general Strat. Uh, strata. I can't speak. I don't know why. That's it. A strategic strategist. I speak for a living, but.

Speaker D: No, I hear you. It's. That's. That's the foible of our profession. Professional speaker.

Speaker C: But, you know, the point is, uh, you know, nobody would necessarily call him warm and cuddly. I don't believe. Uh, but he's talking about what we're just talking about here. Caring for your people. Treating them like, you know, it's okay to treat them and care for them like they're family, um, because it's what they expect. It's what people want out of their leaders. Right? Is leaders who care. I love the way Dr. Brene Brown put it, uh, when she said, you know, people give a damn if you give a damn.

Speaker D: It's that simple. Simple. Not easy. Right? That's. That's the thing. We always use that analogy. You know, getting a black belt, simple practice. It's not easy. Right? But I also think. I don't want. I don't want this to. To go over the. Go, uh, water over the dam here. When you're talking about this, especially with your experience and your background and the admiration I have for you and others who have served in the military. Because one of my greatest regrets is that I didn't. I had originally had a goal to be in the Coast Guard Academy. Didn't make it. Then I was going to enlist in the Coast Guard. Uh, for some reason, I didn't do it. Now, I. I mean, when I, you know, in hindsight, hey, I had some great adventures. I. I can't re. I can't regret the life that I had. But if I had to have one regret, it's. It's that. That I didn't serve, I think my life would have taken a much different turn. But the thing is, the important part of that is now that I've. I've gotten to Know and been friends with so many incredible military leaders like yourself. You know, if you ask the average person on the street, they would see the military leader as a command and control type of authoritarian, as some. It's that that stigma is still there and it's completely the opposite. I've met the most compassionate leaders who are military leaders. They. Right. Uh, even by necessity, your life depends on the people around you in real terms. I had a little taste of that in the fire service, but that, you know, that's what it is. Um, Patton, who's often, I think in the cliched, uh, he's become the cliche of the, of the authoritarian leader. Right. But you know, in studying him, I know you're a great fan of his too. You read his books. You read the books people close to him wrote and he was, he cared about his troops like as you just quoted Sun Tzu, as if they were his own family. Right. And, but sometimes the, the irony of that is, right in that kind of position, you're in the extreme where you know that sometimes you have to put the people you love at great risk, at ultimate risk. And that doesn't make you less compassionate. Not the experience that I've seen. It makes you more compassionate.

Speaker C: Oh yeah, no, I, I had, um, one of the leadership courses I had when I was in the marines. I had one person define, uh, uh, military leadership as, uh, the willingness to put your troops in harm's way knowing that they could die, but the thought of doing so has to rip your heart out.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: It's like if it, if it doesn't do that, you need to be, you need to not be in a military leadership role.

Speaker D: No. Then you're, that's pretty much the definition of a psychopath. Right. And.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker D: And there are plenty of psychopaths in management positions in all walks of life. And you know, that's, that's the danger of it. Right. All these things we're talking about, people who want to use it for, you know, completely selfish ends or evil ends even. They, uh, have the access. They have access to the same power, the same uh, information, the same education that, that all of us do. So, you know, that's why it's so important for us to choose our leaders carefully. I think when we do put them in management positions.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think that is the, the big responsibility that, that current leaders have. So going back to that, that progression of responsibility. Right. Kind of tying this piece together is you have to start giving that responsibility and building that through as soon as Somebody walks through the door.

Speaker D: Somebody walks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the kids. Oh, my God. You just open up a can of worms. Because I remember arguing with a parent one time. I was sitting down with my little dragons. It's funny, too, because since I've left, you know, the schools behind, uh, I'll run into sometimes my black belts, you know, and they'll say, sensei, do you miss us? I said, oh, hell no. You guys, you guys are, uh, whiners. I miss my little, little guys, my little dragons. Three to six year olds, right?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: And so anyway, one of the, one of the parents came in because she caught me having. We, we just sit down on the floor and talk. And we were talking about respect, and we were talking about responsibilities. And she said, you know, it's nice that you talk. You have those talks. She said, but, you know, those kids don't understand what you're saying. I said, nope, not yet they don't. I said, but when do you want them to start hearing it? You know, this is the time. This is when this should be going in, not whatever horse hockey happens when they're sitting down at that video panel. Right, Right.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I mean, because I, I, it is because I. There's so many, so many lessons we learned then that we don't know we learn until the light bulb goes off. Because, uh, I still remember. And I shared it so many times on this podcast, I'll share it again. My listeners, like, girl, we're tired of hearing it, but, oh, well, you're gonna hear it one more time. One of the wisest things my grandfather ever told me was we were going through. I don't even remember where it was now, but there was a statue of some guy, right? And I asked my grandfather, you know, like, who it was. He read the nameplate, and I'm like, why did they build a statue of this guy? And he reads the words there and then, like, just. He kind of thinks for a second. He says, you know what, son? When I die, I'd rather have people asking why they didn't build a statue of my honor than asking why they did. I'm like, that's legacy right there, right? You know, like, when people are asking why they didn't, that means people know who you are without having to have a statue there to tell you that you existed. People remember. People know they're begging for remembrance, not you're forcing remembrance. That's legacy, right?

Speaker D: And, uh, you know what's interesting too, as you're talking about that because people will often ask, well, how do you become a leader like that? Right. And the pure fact is it's interesting, Jordan Peterson talks about this quite a bit. You know, hierarchy is wired into us. I mean that's part of our, our makeup as a social animal, right? It's unavoidable. I mean you can't not have hierarchy. It, it begins to construct itself organically. Now when does that start happening? Well, it happens as soon as we open our eyes. We're able to hear, we're able to listen, we're here to, able to walk and talk. And so that conditioning can start very early. And I, I'm not a believer in what's traditionally known as the natural born leader. Uh, but I do absolutely believe, and the science seems to be behind us on this, that as human beings we have this innate disposition toward hierarchy and towards the emergence of leadership. Now how does that take shape in the modern, how does it take shape as we get older? There really isn't that much difference between us and as 50, 60, 70 year old person than we were when we were 2, 3, 4, 5 years old. All right, the maturity and this is another thing that Peterson, uh, hits on and he's a hero of mine anyway. But he talks about that acceptance of responsibility, right? That we, maturity is really the assumption of more, our greater responsibilities. When we're little kids, we're dependent, right? It was, we emerge, we become more, more independent and interdependent. In a healthy sense, we're accepting more responsibility. That's, that's the mark of leadership. Now that can get really tricky, can't it? Because at the same time, I think one of the greatest problems that are that, that we face right now is a trend towards willful dependency. Does that make sense? So there's, so there's so many more people who don't want to assume that responsibility. They don't want to mature as human beings for whatever reason. We can argue that till the cows come home, but it's, it's happening. There's no doubt about the fact that it's happening. And we have a couple of generations that are severely crippled by that and wanted. And I know you and I are pretty much like minded in this respect. As a rule. Uh, they want government, for example, to step in and become their parents or their providers. And then there are those of us who, no, we don't want government to, to dictate to us. We, you know, we see the construct of our society a little bit differently. Um, who's right and who's wrong. Well, we're going to be fighting that one out for the next 50 years. I don't know which way it's going to go. You know, I won't be around it. So I'm not that trouble. I'm not going to see the collapse of civilization. I'm not going to last that much longer.

Speaker C: You got another 50 and yeah, I got faith. But I think Peterson is a perfect example. Right. Because you know, getting to that level is hard. It takes effort, it takes work. And because Peterson's one of those folks, I know there's a lot of people like, I mean I'm sure even in my listeners right now, there's some people as soon as you said Jordan Peterson's name, they were like, okay, I'm changing channel right now.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: But he's one of those types of people like if you do the easy thing and you listen to sound bites, it's very easy to think, oh man, this is one of the most wretched human beings that walks up face of the earth because the sound bites get cherry picked to make him sound that way. But once you listen to what the guy says in full context of what he is saying, it's like, ah, uh, okay, this makes sense. Like it's not this just sound bite thing.

Speaker D: It makes sense where it makes me think. Right, that's exactly too. When you hear him talk, that's one of the big things I'm paraphrasing a little bit. But on several occasions I've heard him say, and I think a lot of great thinkers, this really distinguishes them where they'll say something to the effect, uh, this is what I've, this is how I understand it right now. Yeah. It doesn't mean this, this is fixed at all. I'm not imposing my, my opinion on you. Let's start from here. Let's start the conversation. And you have to, yeah, you have to be willing to poke the hornets nest. I think I got myself in real bad trouble at a college gig one time. Uh, I had the dean of students approach me afterwards. I thought that, I thought the whole presentation went great, did two sessions. The kids were just terrific. They were asking tough questions. We got into some really tough discussions. This was about the time Matt Lauer had been, had gotten himself into trouble at NBC. So we were talking about that and how you're managing that and how you. Right. Well at the end of the whole thing I was approached, uh, yeah, I think she was the dean of students and she was very upset that I had uh, victim shamed. And I said, really? I said, how? How do you think I did that? Well, the kids, this in a nutshell, the kids had asked, um, what's the answer to this? You know, I said, well, answers, uh, another person who can piss some people off. Um, I'm thinking of Thomas Sowell and how he said, there really aren't any solutions. There are only trade offs. And I really appreciate that, that bit of wisdom. So anyway, in the emergence of all, I said, yeah, no, there are people out there who behave badly. I said, the only thing we can do is have the courage to face them. I said, when you look at that, there was a dearth of courage along the way that was interpreted as the victim shaming. And what I was trying to explain is that. No, no, I said, I'm not saying I understand. I think her argument was that it's perfectly okay. Uh, there were two young women who had been victims of sexual assault in that audience and that was her concern. Now, the kids didn't say anything. They didn't have an issue. But having said that, um, the fact that I had emphasized the courage was supposed, in her mind, shaming them because they didn't report it, they didn't write. And she said, that's okay. Now we can have that argument. Because I, I don't believe it's okay if someone does me harm and I, I don't stand up at least to face it. It's not healthy for me and it's not right. It's not. There's no road to recovery there. You've got to face it. And I may be allowing that perpetrator to go on and do harm to others. Having said that, if it's the choice you make, and that's what you need to survive, I get it. And I'm not judging that. Right. So. But, uh, you're gonna have to live with that. But I said that the counter that said I don't. So I'm not vilifying the person who chooses for whatever reasons to stay silent. What I am saying is that the only way out of that situation is courage. And courage is tough. I mean, courage. Right. Courage is not the absence of fear. The absence of fear is stupidity. So courage by definition means you're facing what scares you and you're doing what you need to do, even though it's painful, uh, some not expedient, whatever the case may be. So anyway, that's, that's. And the reason I'm beating that drum so loudly is because that's another issue that we're seeing in our society right now. Easy to stick your head in the sand. Easy to. It isn't ironic when we're deluged by every detail on social media of everybody's life, and at the same time, people want to stick their head in the sand. Say, that doesn't. That's not happening.

Speaker C: You know, well, it's. But I want to touch on that for a second because I've been in the same position. Right. Because I made the comment, the way I put it was, you've only got. In that situation, you've only got two choices. You deal with it or you deal with it. Right. Like you deal with. You deal with the problem or you deal with the fact that it's happening. Right. I mean. And that's it. And I got the same feedback. I said, look, I said, no, I'm not. I'm not upset at them. I said the same thing. I get it. I understand.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: But. But I said, the problem is you. Right. I'm mad at you. Right. We got into talking about responsible leadership.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, the reason. And this is for organizations that are listening. This is for my C suite executives. This isn't just for college campuses, but I know some of those folks listen to the reason. Those young women primarily, but it happens to young men as well. Much smaller percentage, but it does happen. The reason that they're afraid to report is because they have a, uh, sincere and honest belief that you won't do anything with what they report.

Speaker D: Right. Or may even make you feel less for having brought that forward. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: So it's not victim shaming in the least bit. It's advocating for them, that you need to do a better job taking care of them when they report so they feel more comfortable reporting.

Speaker D: Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting, too, because you mentioned. You alluded this a few minutes ago. It's. It's very difficult. And, um, this is one of the. I think one of the most important characteristics of a truly effective leader is be. And we're back to compassion and empathy again. Being able to put yourself in the other person's shoes to a degree. Being able to. Right. To try to understand whether you agree or not, whether it's something you should tolerate or not. Right. But being able to take a look at it from another person's perspective. And what's very interesting is that sometimes when we're accused by somebody, like. Like the situations you and I just went through, it's, uh, it's fascinating to me that the person who's, who's victimizing us at that point or trying to, right, because we're not allowing it. But, uh, they often lack that perspective. So when I heard that, I thought, you know, I think, I think she had accused me to say, you have no idea what it's like to be the victim of a sexual assault. And I thought, how does this person know that? How does this person know that I wasn't a victim of a sexual assault? You know, I've thankfully not much, but I've spent time in jail a little bit. I wasn't raped in jail. Jail, not prison for the. But you know, that kind of thing. You don't know what happened to me in my life. You didn't know if I was abused by, by relatives. You don't, you don't know. So I think, uh, again, it's a mark of maturity in leadership to. You got to back off a little bit. And the irony there is, right, some of the most effective leaders are judgmental people. Leaders have to make decisions. They have to exercise judgment at the same time. And now we're back to our Eastern philosophy, right? A and B can both be true, so we can both be judgmental. And we can also train ourselves to withdraw that judgment and keep it at a distance as we weigh the situation. And then we can return in a positive way, right. To exercise the judgment which hopefully will be more responsible and more informed at that point. Boys, that got thick, didn't it?

Speaker C: But no, but it's a valuable point, right? Because, you know, you know, I do, uh, a decent amount with diversity and inclusion stuff. And that's what I talk about is like, you know, with biases, right? My mission is to de. Stigmatize the word bias, right? Because bias has become synonymous with racist. And it's not. Yeah, that's not what it is. Bias is a preference. Having biases isn't bad. Bias is a survival.

Speaker D: M. It's inevitable, right? It's inevitable. Yeah.

Speaker C: It's exactly. We all have this. What do we do with them? Right. Are we aware that they exist?

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: And can we calibrate for how they're influencing our, our decisions? That's it.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: You know, and that's what you're talking about there, right? Is, yeah, it's okay to have these judgments, but are we aware that these judgments exist? Are they influencing our decisions? And are we able to kind of step back and calibrate our decisions? Because we know prejudice. Prejudging.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Prejudice without prejudging the situation. Right.

Speaker D: Without Knowledge and without experience, which is really the part that gets left out of that definition sometimes. Right, right. And, and you hit, you're hitting it again right on the nail. Nail right on the head. Because ultimately, as leaders, it's what we do with that information and that experience. Um, are we going to make decisions that are going to move myself and the organization forward, or am I going to make decisions that are going to be detrimental? Yeah, but there's the other part of it. I mean, it's inescapable. And I know you work with C suite groups, too. Our sensei. Sensei in the C suite program, we often get, you know, once, once we get into a little bit and, and people let their hair down, so to speak. Not me, but I let all my hair down a long time ago.

Speaker C: Oh, goodness.

Speaker D: But it's, uh, when you really just start to talk as human beings, you find that folks really appreciate those situations and, and will come to an understanding that. Right. I have these biases. I have these, these faults, if you will. And how can we manage those constructively at the same time, knowing that my best decision can be bad for somebody. Right. And that's inescapable. If whenever I hear leaders lament that and say, geez, you know, I just, I just don't want to hurt him. I don't want to cause any harm, I said, well, then don't accept a management position. Don't accept a formal leadership position. Now you're trying to minimize it, and you're definitely trying not to harm people with intent unless they deserve it. Let's put that. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, that's it. I, I wish I had nicer, a nicer perspective for leaders, but that's, that's one that you have to embrace, you have to expect it, and you have to manage as it comes, you know.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah, well, sure. Yeah. And you see that a lot with, with, um. With firing.

Speaker D: Right, Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's one. And it's, yeah, it's getting leaders to realize you can fire, you can fire with care.

Speaker D: You can. And sometimes. I know you've encountered this before. I'm sure sometimes you're firing somebody even though it sucks, because nobody who's compassionate likes to fire people. Except, you know what I shouldn't say, uh, that every time I ask that question workshop, I'll say, has anybody ever fighted somebody ever? All the buddy raised their hand. I said, did you like it? And once in a while I'll have somebody raise their hand, and as soon as they do, I say, you have a specific person in mind, don't you?

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: There's that one. There's always one.

Speaker D: Yeah. And of course, usually they deserved it. And it's. That's the point that sometimes you're doing more harm by tolerating it. We can go back to the Matt Lauer story there. Right. And you're harming other people. The, uh. And sometimes it's the best thing for that person. They needed to change too, and they might not have the courage to make that change. That's why there's. That's why they're slacking in the job. Right. That's why they're causing trouble or that's why they're disgruntled or taking their anger out on other people. All these things that can happen, right? Oh, yeah. So the best thing all the way around sometimes is to. Again, we're back. What? We're back. We're always back to the fundamentals. Courage to. To stand up and do it. And it sucks sometimes. Let's put, you know. Right. We don't sugarcoat things, you and I. Right. It sucks. Uh, no, it sucks, but it's going to be painful. Mama never says going to be easy.

Speaker C: No, but you know, as they say, that's the cost of doing business. Right. And it's.

Speaker D: Yes. And it's the price you pay. Because along with these great responsibilities we're talking about, there is. There are often great rewards. And I'm not talking about monetary. I'm talking about how we change and affect people's lives. But now there's where we talked a little bit before the show about the AI thing coming. That's where it's going to be really critical because, and I get it, leaders, particularly in business and in politics, are going to be making decisions that are going to be crushing people's lives. And maybe you can make a case that in the long haul that's going to be, uh, uh, you know, that's progress for humanity in general, progress for society in general. But we are going to be crushing people's lives, or at least changing them severely, coming up. And more important than ever, that we get back in touch with the humanity that's required to lead effectively and to care for people as we're. As we're upsetting people's lives with this new, new technology. This is going to be a interesting few years, I think, coming up.

Speaker C: Well, it really is. Right. Because the interesting thing about AI and a lot of people are seeing AI as, oh, this is the answer. This is the end all be all. And it's a tool, right? It is a tool. But what have we seen in all of these kind of closed circuit tests where they've just let AI run amok? Right? AI is, is, it's human evolution. It's really just human evolution accelerated.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: And so what, you see what we've seen here, I mean, and you've read the stories of, oh, hey, when, um, when, when, uh, who was it? Facebook a few years ago, like when they, they let their AI kind of run wild and like within, I don't know, it was like 30 minutes, it developed its own language and they couldn't understand what it was saying and so they had to shut it down. What was the one recently where within like, I don't know, like 30 minutes it had like started plotting the end of humanity or something?

Speaker D: Yeah, I wanted to wipe us all out. And you know, that gets weird too because, you know, it's interesting, I was, I've been so fascinated by it that I'm, I'm now reading several books about the origins of AI and it goes back, this is decades old. This is not a new problem. Um, the idea that, all right, if we don't want a machine to run amok and blow up the planet, don't plug it into the nuclear system, you know, it can, it can't, it can't. So far, it can't wire itself into these systems. So that's where we have to accept a lot of responsibility. But on the other end too, you hit the nail right in the head again. It's, it's only a feedback mechanism, very sophisticated one, but that's what it is. And it, it's, we're only going to get out what it, what to put in. Now. I just wrote an article about this. I'll share a little bit of it with you. I actually asked Chat GPT, which is, you know, one of the most prominent AI programs out there, and I asked it about its role in leadership and basically I'm going to cut it down to the fundamentals. Basically, it said it can't lead. It admitted itself and I asked it why and it said, because it's not capable of compassion. That was the first thing it said.

Speaker C: Love it.

Speaker D: I'm not capable of compassion. You know, this is it. And they said, while we can provide, while I can provide information that will help leaders make better decisions. I'm paraphrasing a little, but I'm trying to remember as accurately as I can, uh, I ultimately cannot assume responsibility because I have no conscience.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's, it's good that it's, it's that level of self. Aware. Ah. And that's exactly where I was going to go. You were, you were absolutely right. Because going back to that bias piece, right. And that, that's where there's this whole thing about ethics and AI, because what we're, what we're noticing and what they're really starting to realize is they keep saying, well, AI is free of bias because of that lack, uh, of consciousness. Well, that may be true, but the people who are coding the AI have a bias and that bias is embedded in the coding. And as AI is learning, it's making decisions based off the coder's bias. So that coder's bias is getting perpetuated much quicker. Which means the AI learns with the coder's bias. Right. And listeners. I want to, I know it's going to sound self serving as all hell, but I want to amplify, uh, what Jim just said. This is the one piece where you can't afford to not spend the money on the training. Whether it's me, whether it's Jim, whether it's, We've got dozens of colleagues that we would gladly recommend, right? When the things that we talk about caring for people, looking out for them, getting them to care and look out for other people, that's going to be the customers, that's going to be the, their, their co workers. That means those sales numbers are going to start looking better. That means employee engagement is going to go up. That means innovation is going to go up. That means recruitment, retention, all those things are going to get better. So all those things that you say are more important, you're actually doing a disservice to, by not paying attention to the thing that you are trying to say is less important. And you're gonna be spending a lot more money up here at the high level where you could have spent, you know, uh, thousands of dollars on us to come in and do workshops and this sort of stuff. The point is you could do a lot more return on investment if that's what you're really worried about, by bringing us in, taking care of the leadership piece, because it is going to affect all of those areas. And we've, we've seen it, we've seen it happen time in and time out.

Speaker D: And it's the leader who needs to, uh, make that, that's it. You imagine just moving that a point in the right direction and how much money that's worth, how many billions of dollars that's worth just to get. And I'll put it in. Let's bring it down to earth. That means getting, that means getting somebody to do good work for about 10 minutes more every day.

Speaker C: Sure.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: Well and that's the thing too with that number. Right. It's like they say they're 70% of the workforce is disengaged. Is 52% is actively disengaged. So 70% of the people are coming to work and showing up and doing the bare minimum. 70%.

Speaker D: Right, right.

Speaker C: That 52% that Jim talked about, actively disengaged means they're choosing to. Yeah, they're essentially sabotaging work while they're there. They're looking for other jobs. They're surfing Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. There may be even shooting TikTok videos at one work. Like they're, they're doing anything else but work while you're paying them to be at work. Right. That's what actively disengaged means.

Speaker D: I didn't mean to let those videos out, but of course I, I caught myself and I fired myself that day on the spot. I said, Jim, you can't be doing this stuff. You're wasting your life, you're wasting your time.

Speaker C: Yeah, I'm not an influencer. No.

Speaker D: I had. Had to hire myself back the next day. That's the problem with being self employed. Right.

Speaker C: Well speaking of, before we get out of here, man, we've already been chatting about 45 minutes here. I can't believe time has flown. Um, you've got your show back up and running. Huh huh. Walking the walk.

Speaker D: Yeah, we do. So let's get you on that. Yeah, let's get you on that. Coming up. Um, I'm sorry I haven't been more active. Uh, we're still trying to get one or two out a month we've been and okay with that. We should do more because there's so many cool people to talk to. But yeah, let's get you on, on that show Walking. Um, the walk. Just go to the sensealeader.com and you'll find the links to that. You'll link back to this program because. Right. This is, this is going to be Evergreen. Uh, you know, Mr. M. Brion is leaving the program but he is right. He said he set this inventory of great information out there which is going to live. It's going to keep going and we're going to keep sharing it and there's all kinds of good stuff, stuff out there. There's no excuse for us not to Be informed these days. There's so many good people doing this. Good work.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, it's. And you know, you, you've got some great shows out there already. And yes, I'd be honored to be a guest on your show, Jim, anytime. And uh, but folks, go check it out. You know, we'll get the links up to Jim's site, but go check out his work. Go, go follow him on social media. Um, the stuff you put out, the articles you write, the insight, you pose some very insightful, very thought provoking questions. And that's one of the things I love about, uh, being friends with you on Facebook and following your stuff is like, I don't know that there's a day that goes by I don't see something from you that makes me go, huh, okay, let me think about this for a little bit.

Speaker D: Well, that's what we should do as a, ah, joint seminar in. Because it's cool. I mean, in the essentials, in the important things. I think we're very much in alignment, but that doesn't mean we agree all the time. And we've had some really good debate back and forth over the years and respectful debate and it opens up, um, people need to do that more. I think. It's not, it's not bad to, to, you know, for people to explore our, our interchanges. But, uh, that, yeah, that's. Oh boy. We could talk for another couple hours just about that, right? We've got to get, we've got to get people dialoguing again and being able to talk about difficult things. So that's always fun and that's a lot of what happens there. So. And I like what you said. I, I don't bring a whole lot of solutions to anybody. I cause a lot of trouble. And then we'll start, right? We stoke the fires a little bit and then maybe down the line we'll, we'll, we'll find some, some good trade offs. Yeah.

Speaker C: I mean, and that, that's education, right? I mean, I think that's education, its purest form. It's not teaching people something, it's, it's getting them to think and find out.

Speaker D: Uh, well, there's no formula to read. I don't care what anybody says. There's no formula to leadership. There isn't. We, I think we can facilitate discussions. We can get people talking. We can share ideas, we can share good ideas, we can share our experiences, share our mistakes, and then together collectively, right in the room, virtually or otherwise. That's where people can go off on their own and create their own. Their own, uh, design. Leadership design. Because that's what it is. As a leader, you've got to create yourself. As a leader, you've got to create your leadership. And you. I should add this, uh, I'm going to steal from the Marines. I know Lao Tzu said it a long time ago too. You guys probably stole it from him. But how did you guys say adapt and overcome. Right? Be flexible.

Speaker C: Overcome.

Speaker D: Yeah. I think Lao Tzu said is be. Paraphrasing. Be flexible, adaptable and comfortable with uncertainty. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah. 100.

Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker C: And that's it, right? Like I. The number one. And I don't know about you, but the number one question I get is, okay, how can I do this in my organization? Right? Is that. Look that in a. After given a class or period of instruction or whatever we're doing, right? And it's like, look, that's way too complex of a. Of a question to answer. You know, I always go, it's a

Speaker D: great question to ask, isn't it? Because that's get you moving in the right direction.

Speaker C: Yeah. Because, like, you know, Seneca famously said, a man can never step, uh, in the same river for it's never the same man and it's never the same river. Right. A leadership solution is never going to solve the same problem because it's never the same problem and it's never the same people. Right. Your people are too complex. The situation is going to be different. You, uh, are different. Like we. That's where. That's another place where Gemini can add value. People like us can add value. Is we can help you look at this particular problem. Our job is to give you a set of skills and help you be able to figure out how to, uh, apply them and get comfortable applying them. It's not to say if you do X, Y and Z, you're going to see a. We can't do that. We're not that good.

Speaker D: If we come away from Asia for a second, we go over to Greece. Pliny the Elder. So this is beautiful. It sounds so stupid when you first hear it, but think about it and it becomes very profound. The only certainty is uncertainty. You see? And I think the best. Well, I don't think this. I know this. I shouldn't. I shouldn't say. That's a bad habit to use that throwaway. I think I know this with absolute certainty. The best leaders are not the people with all the answers. Right? People with all the answers. We usually have a different name for them. Starts with an A ends with whole. The best leaders are the people who, who've disciplined themselves to ask the right questions and continually do that because it's what you just said. The conditions are always changing, the circumstances are always changing. So to be facile and asking the right questions and it's the question again back to Thomas. I love that you said that there aren't any solutions, there are trade offs. So in the moment we're doing the best we can. And then 10 minutes later, and here's. I don't know if I don't want to totally let leaders off the hook, but I'll do it a little bit. If you're sincere and if you embrace the skills that we're talking about today, you can't make the wrong decision. If you're acting with the best intentions of the best spirit, with other people's best outcomes, uh, in your heart, you can't make a bad decision. Now ten minutes after you make that decision, it may turn out to have been the wrong decision. Right. But you did the best you could. Now the next thing you have to do is, is face that, which is again, a change in circumstances and then move ahead from there. And most of the time, I mean these studies have been done so many times, successful people, the people who fail 99% of the time, the old, uh,

Speaker C: Mike Tysons, everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face, right?

Speaker D: Uh, I don't know how much I know about that. That's how I got so pretty. Right. I was a fighter. I didn't say I was a very

Speaker C: good one, but yeah, no, I mean that's valuable. You know, what Jim just said is extremely valuable. And it's, it's, it's good stuff. And um, one more time, just so everybody gets it. Where, where can they find out more about you, the things you're doing? Um, they want to work with you, they want to bring you in to be part of their organization and uh, bring some of this, uh, sensei knowledge. How can I get a hold of you?

Speaker D: Well, thanks for that. The easiest way is the sensealeader.com just come to that. And we are going to be doing a media blitz coming up pretty soon. So hopefully people will hear about us and you know, different media outlets and whatnot and, and we can connect that way. So yeah, the Sensei Leader.com and please reach out. Uh, let's start the conversation. Absolutely. Uh, you know, like I said, I suck at sales anyway, so I'm not going to try to talk you into anything. If it's a good fit, and it's just as important from my side, if you're not willing to embrace what we've just talked about in this program, if you're not willing to put your people first, if you're not willing to really, you know, lead with compassion, lead with honor, lead with courage, then, uh, it's not a good fit. Go find somebody else. Yeah.

Speaker C: 100%. 100%. Well, brother, I really appreciate the time here. Uh, it's been great. It's been a great conversation. I can't thank you of a better way or a better guest in this show with listeners. Thank you for being along with this ride. It's been a little over four years on the show, and, uh, you know, I know some of you been with me since day one. Some of you maybe started listening just with this episode. Go back and listen. There's 260 of them other than this one, and every one of them is a gym. Even the ones where I'm just, uh, talking by myself. Not a Jim Bouchard, but a gem like the stone there I got to be. My Tennessee accent. You can't tell the difference between the two words sometimes, but they're all great. I've had a lot of great guests. I've been blessed to have many outstanding guests on this show running a wide range of topics. And, uh, I just, you know, as Jim said, this content is evergreen. This is always going to be up. Thanks to my friends at Electrocast. They've told me that they're always going to keep the show up. They're going to keep it up and running. And if by some chance they go under, I'll got all my files, I'll pull them down and I'll host it somewhere else. I want to make sure this is up there for y'. All. But, um, I really appreciated getting a chance to have these conversations, bringing this content with y', all, hearing the feedback, knowing that you've enjoyed the guests, knowing that I've been able to bring some of this information and, and expose some of y' all to, to these thoughts. Uh, uh, many great books out there. I, uh, know I've kind of highlighted some of my desk reference books. Uh, Jim's Book of Five Rings is one of those. You need to go check that out. The new Book of Five Rings, I should say. Uh, you definitely need to get a copy of that, if you haven't already. Um, but on that note, Jim, again, thank you, my brother, for being the, the closeout guest on this show. It was a great conversation. I really appreciate you. I wish you and Alex all the best of luck with everything you're doing. And brother, just keep trucking on. And thank you for being a guest on the Responsible Leadership, uh, podcast.

Speaker D: Well, well, thank you. It's, it's an honor. And thank you for everything you've done with your life, dedicating your life's leadership. And I can't wait to see what your next adventure is going to bring.

Speaker C: All right, folks, there you have it. Another great show about responsible leadership. I really appreciate you listening and if you have any feedback from me, please reach out@earleadershipphalanx.com that's earl@leadership ph a l a n x.com thank you for rating, reviewing, subscribing and sharing the show so these messages can spread further and make a bigger impact. With that, I look forward to speaking with you again in the next episode.

Speaker A: Introducing the Deep Leadership podcast. Leadership is a people business. That's the philosophy of your podcast host, John Rennie. As a former submarine officer who spent 22 years leading businesses in corporate America before starting his own manufacturing business, he knows that leadership matters. Deep Leadership is real world, actionable leadership. Advice from John and his expert guests. Become a leader worth following. Subscribe today. Electric Assets. Electric Assets.

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