The Noma Story Just Got Even Stranger

Speaker A: Dude, I'm looking at this DACA today and we are all over the place, but in a good way. We're staying in the industry. It just feels like the industry is in this weird place of we're going on Reddit, we're going on Instagram, we're talking about the buttoned up Oscars of food with the James Beard Awards. And then we're going to talk about a restaurant in Japan. And so we're just. This is a global thing. This is. We're going to get into nuanced takes on the. One of the best restaurants in the world. Having this person who largely gets credit with tearing them down and how he just kind of just went off the grid. We've covered obviously some of this stuff on Noma and Jason Ignacio White before, but I think that's where we're going to start. Do you have any updates at the top of the show? If you are not subscribed on YouTube, highly, highly recommend you do so, like the video. Also leave us a rating on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. This is the Repertoire podcast. My name is Justin Khanna. I'm here with Ray Deluci. Like I said, you got any updates?

Speaker B: No, I mean, YouTube channel is doing well. Thank you all for watching last week's episode. I think that last week's episode was a good preface for this, especially the first 15 minutes. I kind of COVID Noma's return coming back, uh, my thoughts personally. But, uh, obviously having Justin back, we wanted to maybe put a bow on this story together. So, um, here we go.

Speaker A: Not to mention the fact that there's been some updates since you covered it, which is the departure that we're experiencing. So maybe we'll start with Renee's point. I don't necessarily know if I have like the most to share on his stuff, only because I think I mentioned it in some of our initial coverage where I, I referenced that New York Times piece where it was almost talking in hypotheticals about we're launching NOMA projects. Noma's moving into this new zone. These were, uh, you know, the abuse allegations were in a place of. We only had the previous pieces. We were still kind of in this place of Renee maybe not fessing up the most. There weren't that many repercussions that he was maybe experiencing. The New York Times piece talked about this idea of him stepping into like a head of creative or creative director type role. And I distinctly remember covering that because I thought that it was like a very big transition or change or kind of Like a departure from I'm executive chef or I'm owner of noma. Yes. He's still going to have a large say because of the way that he was instrumental in kind of having NOMA be his company and he was the chef and all of these sorts of things that his involvement is kind of like directly tied to. But it didn't really strike me as that big of a surprise, number one. Number two, this is thankfully more congruent with what he said he was going to do. And that, I think is the thing that I'm wanting to see more of from Rene is this. Here's what I'm going to do. Here's the plan. And Ray, you've talked about this before, like, just like in a lot of ways that is exemplified leadership. When people can count on you to follow through on what you say that you're going to do. There's a little bit of that that I think people crave, your team craves. And, uh, maybe the flip side of it is when that's missing or when it feels like there's a flip floppiness that's happening, that's where the frustrations kind of stem from. I think that there is still this large cohort of people who want Renee to be completely exiled from the organization, and that is not happening. As far as what we've seen, the way that this is kind of developed. And again, I don't necessarily know if that is the outcome that directly addresses the issue, if that makes sense, because if the abusive behavior was tied to Rene being in this position of the hierarchy, the responsibility that falls on his shoulders. And then most importantly, the thing that, like the. Where the rubber really meets the road. And, and that thing that gets chronicled in some of these New York Times pieces is when the stress is too high, the overwhelm reach reaches a tipping, uh, or boiling point, pardon the pun. And then Rene doesn't have, as I've shared in previous episodes, the skill set, the support, the willingness to ask for help in order to overcome or. Or behave in a way that I think is in the team's best interests, in the way that he could potentially be the quote, unquote, best version of himself as, as. As the chef of the organization. And so.

Speaker B: Can I interject?

Speaker A: Please, please, please. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: I've seen, uh, I've had a lot of comments or commentary, and there seems to be two camps now where it's like, Renee Red Zeppe should be exiled forever. And then there's people that are like, well, what do you expect like it is what it is. Like that's just kitchens. I, I think that it doesn't have to be over complicated to the point where if you or I were in a job and we started hitting someone, we'd be let go from that or organization. I think that would, that was, that's likely just like the simplest answer. If he was physically abusing people, then, you know, maybe a separation is like, it doesn't need to be more or less complicated than that.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: Um, you know, what, what this means for going forward, obviously we'll see. But I just want to maybe clarify that because I feel like people sometimes have to like take these like giant way or the other and it's just like if you just look at it through the lens of a, of someone in an organization, like imagine they're at your job and they did that. What would that cost them? That cost them probably their job at that current organization.

Speaker A: I guess what, what I'm saying is it seems to be to me like it's precipitated by a lot of the context, if that makes sense. So in other words, do are we as a industry, you know, maybe to paint with very, uh, broad of a brush, but maybe if, you know, let's boil it all the way down, Ray. You and I sitting on a fly on a wall, looking at a meeting that's going to come after a creative session around what noma's going to be working on for is, is Rene going to leave that meeting having abused people, like violently having outbursts towards individuals? Do you know, I would hope not. You know what I mean? And so, and so from there, that's where I kind of shift the hat. And again, I'm trying to uh. I like that you're bringing up these examples of like, okay, if in this context this person behaves in this way, what are the ramifications of that? And how can we kind of stay congruent across how we're going to treat Rene? I think that's an interesting thought exercise and happy to continue that conversation in the comments with anybody. But then I am, um, trying to almost say there's a self awareness here of, yeah, maybe this type of context is maybe not the best for me. And you know, could we have a split timeline where renewal does a little bit more work? And he says, no, I'm going to double down here and I'm really going to be the chef of noma and I'm going to try to, you know, do Renee 2.0, Rene 3.0. They've talked about, you know, Noma 2.0, 3.0. Is there a world where Rene kind of steps into that role because of the, you know, support that he sought out and the work that he's done and the way that he's going to increase accountability on himself and, you know, all of these sorts of things where he eventually gets to this place where he can, quote, unquote, be the chef of Noma without all of the abuse. I don't know, maybe, maybe there's a reality there. Again, from the self awareness perspective, I think he's taking a step back and saying, I want to be in a different place in my career and again, remove all of those potential, I don't know, like exasperators of, you know, the way that I find myself lashing out.

Speaker B: Uh, could you, could you argue, could you argue that? I think the cynical side to it is maybe that he kind of actually, this is actually like the best outcome that could have happened.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: I know we've discussed this and I've had some people in my circle talk about this where it's like, you had this very uncomfortable two months for him, but now he's just like the creative chef behind the scenes doing the wizardry, which I, you know, you know, my stance on like the genius chef idea and how I think that can be har. More harm than it is good. But it almost feels like if you were to be cynical about it or you, like, you obviously wanted to poke holes in it, it's like this actually was likely one of the better outcomes for Renee because he is still a part of noma. He still gets to be a part of the organization, but now he's not really, um, doesn't really have to, like, there's no expectation of. For him to be in the kitchen. There's no expectation for him to mingle with guests, to coach staff, to train people. He just kind of gets to, you know, be the creative mind behind it. So I almost, I wonder if you were to reverse the thought, that thought, would your, what would your response be to that?

Speaker A: This might seem like a little bit of a side tangent, but I promise this is going to come back to Renee here. I have tried to poke around and just kind of like get a sense of how things work in Hollywood. When I go to la, I don't go to LA often, but I think it's so fascinating that there's like this film industry here and people move there to like, totally dedicate their lives to, you know, either making a box office Success or becoming a director, becoming an actor. And so when I get the chance, and this has been like you folks who watch the content when I'm in la, I have actually had dinner with some of you folks in this really cool way. And so that has been kind of cool to get a sense of how some of this stuff works. A thing that I wasn't aware of. That again, people can maybe correct me in the comments if I'm totally just taking one case study and extrapolating too far here is like getting a producer title on a production is like a really big deal. Like you really want to be in the credits as a producer on something that really matters and what you're doing, quote unquote from the work is mate doesn't even necessarily need to be like that, tied to like it's an arbitrary thing. Like I helped produce this movie but for whatever reason holds this like cultural weight. It has status in the way that you flex that in that particular industry. Bringing it back to Renee, creative director. Like, what does that mean? In the way that you're seeing the way that Noma logs how they're, um, developing the menu for NOMA LA as a pop up. And um, you know, Rene is going to go and, and do some of the R and D in LA in the lead up to that, but the people in those videos are the people from the R and D kitchens. They're the people who are going to be dedicated to working that station. They're the people who are forming those relationships with XYZ purveyor and they're the one who is going to, you know, be in charge of bringing in this ingredient and treating it in whatever way that NOMA is going to treat it. I have brought up on the show before this idea of Rene's strength now and the way that he's kind of ascended in his career, developed different skills, decided to move into different roles is the relationship side of things, the distribution side of things. When Rene puts something on Instagram to his, I'm almost positive a million plus followers, that moves things, whether it's products off the shelves of NOMA projects, tickets to pop ups, um, seats to something like the Mad Symposium, which I know, you know, he's publicly come out and said, I'm not, you know, a part of anymore. But there is something like weight that Rene can throw around in sourcing individual people to come either on a podcast with him or you're going to come speak at my event or we're going to actually have you be in the room, Renee, when we're negotiating with American Express to come on as a partner for, you know, sponsoring XYZ thing that we're doing. And so my question is, I think, uh, Ray, you and I look at this role of like, creative director as a chef. If we're going to take any of our peers and they're making that transition of going from chef, which I think, uh, stereotypically you might view as I'm standing at the pass, I'm managing labor cost, I'm training people, you know, I'm expediting, I'm working on this new sauce. And you're going into creative director that is like, okay, well, you're going to move into this place of more conceptual, you know, okay, well, we're. We're going to take the, uh, menu structure that NOMA used to do, which was just, you know, developed dish after developed dish after developed dish. And now the creative director comes in and says, for example, I know that this is a common thing that noma's doing now. We're going to have three seasons throughout the year of Game and the Ocean and Vegetables. And then that's the thing that the creative director does. And that's how they kind of drive outcomes in the organization. Rene is kind of going to do some of that stuff, but the way that they've been pitching stuff, I don't really see that changing. He's not going to be in the R D kitchen, as far as I know, like really being in the weeds, developing some of this stuff. He has individuals who are doing that. And so it's like, what does creative director mean in this landscape of NOMA is going back to Copenhagen and they're going to open their doors. They have to kind of as the way that they have shared things in the past, they have to, quote, unquote, earn back those Michelin stars because they've been out of Copenhagen for so long. And now it's like NOMA Projects is a thing. They're launching this book stuff. They're relaunching the restaurant. I don't know, kind of like Rene is doing a bunch of other things as creative director of this larger organization that is more relationship distribution, product development, more so than anything else. And I think that he gave himself. I don't know if the board, uh, you know, came together and decided that this is the role that we're going to put Rene in, but I think creative director is just like a quote, unquote, safe status signally way where he can kind of still be in the kitchen, if he kind of needs to be, because, quote, unquote, I'm the creative director of noma. But to your point, it does put him in this place of he stuck the landing, you know what I mean? He. He pirouetted through the minefield, so to speak, and landed in this place of he still gets to be involved, I can imagine he still gets to, quote, unquote, profit from the organization on the years and quarters that it does well. And again, he doesn't have to rebuild his career or his reputation, maybe reputation a little bit, but, like, he doesn't have to start from scratch, so to speak, and say, okay, I am a chef without a restaurant anymore in a way that I think other chefs sometimes find themselves, if that makes sense. I don't know if you had other thoughts on this, but I did want to kind of give this update on Jason White and what he's been sharing and maybe not sharing since you covered that story.

Speaker B: I think the only other thing I would ask is, is there a way for us. I believe the signup for tickets is live. There's no real way for us to know, though, how those have sold for the Noma reopening, right?

Speaker A: I don't believe so. So the. I know that for certain things with Noma la, you had to have a, um, Amex or Blackbird account. But, you know, even that all got shuffled around when that some of those people pulled out as sponsors. But if I go to Noma DK right now and I go ahead and click on reservations, if I look for, let's see, the end of August and you and I want to go for, let's call it dinner. Uh, it says sold out. Um, NOMA has sold out reservations. Try another party date. I mean, I'm looking at all these date like we can.

Speaker B: Is there anything for September or.

Speaker A: No, no, nothing in September. We can book for October. Ray, if you and I want to go for dinner at Noma in October, we can technically go. It looks like the week of October 7th, as of US recording. There's availability, but it's like one slot. You know what I mean? This is at the shared table. A lot of the stuff with, you know, getting your own table, August, September, and you know, there's nothing in November. So it's like towards the end and there's some stuff for lunch. I'm, uh, gonna just like, uh, through quickly clicking around here. If we're gonna go for two people. There's slots for lunch and slots at the shared table, but everything else is Sold out. Now you kind of have to take this with a little bit of a grain of salt because they, they use talk for their reservation stuff. You can limit the number of tables that you have to kind of give this sense that you're sold out. But you know, it's no my man. Like they're going back. They need to kind of like if business was quote unquote, not good in LA and they quote unquote, lost money because sponsors pulled out, or again we don't have the final financials from how all this stuff ended up working out for them. They really need to make sure that this time, um, is spent well for them, not just financially, but like the team getting back, you know, into their environment, making sure that the output and the results of the, of the menu is such that it gets Michelin's inspectors that are uh, understandably going to be revisiting them to be impressed. And so a lot of this really, really matters for them. So very, very curious, curious to see um, how this ends up working out.

Speaker B: Before we get into Jason White, I just want to say I clarified this in the last episode. Like, I hope that the talent there that now has taken over does like, I hope they can succeed. But like with that is the expectations that they build a much better environment than maybe Renee had. And so it's like a double bladed sword where it's like, I do want the, you know, the people that, I don't really want everyone to just be jobless. I want them to, you know, succeed and have a good livelihood. But that also comes with this, you know, responsibility to make a really a better culture at noma. So I'm interested to see this new iteration. If, you know, I know some people in the comments be like, this shouldn't even exist. Well, it is existing, it is moving forward. So you can only hope that this current crop of people there, uh, you know, do a better job than Rene did.

Speaker A: And I should say too, I've clarified this before, but it maybe is worth touching on again. I was incredibly skeptical at the allegations that were coming out because of what I know NOMA has been like in call it the last 24 months, at least 36 months, maybe more accurately. Uh, Pablo Soto is an incredible chef. He's a friend. And I know that he has been getting a lot of the recognition and attention because Rene has officially kind of handed the reins over. But when we're talking about the person who has been even before noma, la, I think that people who might have just stumbled across this story when the LA popup was just before it had happened. For those that don't remember, we were covering this story in anticipation for the Pop up being, you know, going. And that was what led the protest to being present on day one of them, quote, unquote, being open at the popup in la. And so, uh, to me it's like there's a little bit of. It's not going to, it's, it's not like the abuse was happening before, uh, right before LA and it was happening in la. And now when we go back to Copenhagen, all the abuse is going to stop and everybody's going to kind of like be in this new role. There have been a little bit of shuffles, leadership wise, but for the most part it is just a formalized recognition that Rene is in this role, Pablo's running the kitchen, and they're going to be back in Copenhagen. And so I, again, I want to echo kind of some of the stuff that you're saying too, with I want this to be a high caliber restaurant that people want to work at and have good experiences working at all the way through and through. And that translates to the guest experience. And I think, oh, it's good financial performance. Uh, like all of the things I think Ray and I both are such lovers of restaurants that we would never want to, you know, like, um, wish poorly on them. And so maybe that leads to this crazy update that I saw, which was like, if we're having Rene Redzepi, quote unquote, dropout from being the chef owner, we're having a different kind of dropout from Jason Ignacio White here, where he put two posts on Instagram. And if you haven't been seeing from him lately, there's a reason behind that and that's because he just completely archived his Instagram. And so I'll read some of these posts. I sent this to you the second I saw it and I screenshotted it, I was like, oh my goodness, is this going to be like this weird thing that, you know, gets shared and then it gets taken down and then changes mind? And so I'll read a couple of the posts here that I was, um, you know, surprise to see. I wasn't expecting this to happen. But Jason Ignacio White is quote unquote off the Internet, at least from Instagram. So I'll read this here. The quote, this Instagram will be archived and no longer maintained. And this is his at Microbes underscore Vibes Instagram, where a lot of the stories and the websites he was building and the allegations and the screenshots of the DMs were all getting posted here and he's just archiving it and not maintaining it. Quote thank you for everyone who has followed along this journey and thank you for sharing your passions with me. I've been slowly preparing to live an off grid life for a while now. No cell phone service, no banks, no mainstream apps or technologies. I'm returning to nature where I belong and focusing on real world work. Soon I'll be putting a link or two in my bio. It will give you access to a free decentralized feed where I will occasionally update my independent research and projects with collaborators. Sending you all much love and strength. It's been real. And then that next post where he talks about what the link is going to be, he kind of put this thing on his story. One last thing before I uninstall Instagram indefinitely. And then it says uh quote log001 field note returning to reality. I've spent many years sharing my work on social media. Over time I found it increasingly difficult to separate talking about change from actually creating it. Mainstream platforms have fundamentally shifted how value is measured, often prioritizing a digital footprint over actual progress and change in physical systems. And then he talks about moving his focus towards um, separate from the online noise and focus exclusively on work in the field. This means dedicated my full time attention to researching, teaching and working face to face with communities. That's why I've also chosen to host this space through an open framework like Codeberg beyond data sovereignty. Their servers run entirely on certified carbon neutral green energy. It is an infrastructure that aligns directly with the choices I want to make in my work. Transparency, physical resource accountability and independence from corporate ecosystems. So he has a page, Microbes, Vibes, Codeberg page and that's where you can apparently find the work from Jason White kind of going forward. He is just gone off the grid, pieced out. I again I don't know if I necessarily have thoughts on some of this stuff because it was an immense like I can imagine it was a swirl. We're talking about, you know, uh, what the two months for Rene Redzepi must have been like. I can only imagine what it must have been like for Jason White to going through all of this, the media attention, the New York Times stuff, the documentary being made. And it is one of those funny things where there was a lot of we're going to do this, we're pushing for that, we're going to try this. There's lawsuits that are going to Be, you know, directed towards me. And now all of a sudden we have this no tracking, no algorithms, independent research framework stuff that he's quoting on now. Uh, again, I think this is too early to say this never say never thing. I think the idea of living in accordance with your values is something that is missing all too often from a lot of the people that do some of this stuff. But at the same time, it is kind of weird to see him focus so heavily on, like, why was this decision not made earlier when all of it, like, could you not have sourced some of this stuff from Instagram and then publish this early? Uh, I think that it's this weird thing to see him make this departure at arguably like the peak of his attention, quote, unquote. If you're going to say attention is like one of the more valuable currencies in our society today, just very, very weird, unexpected. I'm going to keep an eye on it. Don't, uh, say I can't say I have an account on Codeberg or anything like that. If I do hear from Jason White again, it'll be from you folks sending me a DM or him coming back to Instagram for some weird reason. I don't know if you have thoughts on seeing Jason White do this.

Speaker B: Yeah. And, um, when I say this, it's not like, oh, I was hoping for more, but I remember him vividly sharing on his stories that there was a lot more to come in terms of restaurant industry betterment. It seemed like he had projects or, you know, more work. I think that the, you know, I think it's valid. If you had a situation or experience and you want to protest, it's great. Obviously, like, we supported him when this happened, but it just seemed like there was all this work he was planning to do to better the industry, and then he just kind of is now just disappearing. And I really don't know what to make of it. Honestly, Justin, it's kind of. It is a little strange, to be honest, that he was such a loud advocate for people in the restaurant world and then, uh, again, like, Renee kind of lands on his feet. And I'm not expecting Jason to go on this, like, hate campaign for the rest of his life, but there's a lot of work to do in the industry. And it seemed like Jason was maybe building, trying, because I remember him posting something along. Maybe I'm misremembering this, but it was like, I want to work on betterment of the industry. And I felt that he had a lot of capital and A lot of attention to where he could then transform that into maybe, you know, building something that is a positive industry, whether it be training chefs on how to be better with cooks or whatnot. I'm not saying he said he was doing this, but he kept saying something was coming. So I was hoping it was in the heirs of, you know, trying to set up systems or betterment for people in the food industry. So kind of just like, leave now. Not saying that he shouldn't or he can't, but it. It seems like he had the opportunity to maybe to instill or try to instill something different in the. In the restaurant world. So, again, I. I don't know. We. We'll see where. Where he ends up going, but. Or, uh, we. Maybe we won't because he's offline. But it was a very abrupt ending to a movement that seemed very much like it was needed in terms of just, like, you know, eyes on cooks and how they're treated and fine dining in general, especially fine dining. And it seems like it kind of just now all fizzles out. And again, I mean, it's cynical, but you can't help but think maybe Renee landed out just fine. If you hit someone, like, you should probably not be at that place. And, you, uh, know, beyond that, like, I'm not expecting Jason to be always after Renee, but at the same time, there is a, uh. There is a moment in time when you can maybe affect some change. And this feels like it kind of just fizzled out.

Speaker A: And speaking of fizzling out, I don't know if that is what he experienced in some of the work that he was doing. You know, like, you hit this weird place, that can probably be really demotivating. And when we have heard stuff that's come out about Jason White's history, about how he has worked with people, some temperament issues, all of this stuff kind of like starts to swirl together. And, uh, it even came up as I was researching the James Beard story that we're going to cover later today, because one of the press releases had this thing on, you know, like, the audits, and I was kind of just, like, doing some research to refresh my own memory on how the criteria that James Beard kind of approaches stuff with is kind of not already in place in the. Maybe the way that Jason White wants to see it happen. But it's not something that is, like, completely missing from the way that some of these evaluations end up happening. If, uh, you'll remember the examples that I'm specifically talking about with Jason Is like, he would literally go on and tag the Michelin guy, tag the James Beard awards, tag World's 50 Best, and say, like almost these rhetorical, guilt focused questions of do we not care about ethics? Um, I'm paraphrasing, but like, do we not care about abuse happening in these kitchens? At what cost does, you know, accolades need to come from? And if you look at, you know, some of the stuff that came out in 2022, when James Beard came off after that hiatus in 2020 and 2021, they have a thing that talks about this, like, quote, chefs who set high standards in their culinary skills and leadership abilities and who are making efforts to help create a sustainable work culture in their respective regions, working while contributing positively to a broader community. And then they talk about how it changed how judges vote with talking about subcommittees. And judges are now required to look past the culinary execution and actively vet a chef's kitchen culture. If a chef or restaurant has documented allegations of wage theft, a toxic work environment or abusive behavior, they can be and regularly are disqualified or quietly scrubbed from the semifinalist list before the final nominees are announced. End quote. And so I understand that James Beard does not exist in Copenhagen and NOMA is not going to be getting a James Beard Award, but I think that is just an interesting. Like that that was pre Jason White, you know, coming out on Instagram and doing all of these things. I have also voiced a lot of my concerns with the way that he was, you know, maybe not vetting stories the best. And when you have this, you know, really rocket ship fueled rise in audience, uh, and attention and eyeballs on your stuff, he's just publishing things on this website that is like very clearly vibe coded. It's just a very interesting place for us to kind of find this story.

Speaker B: Is there evidence that abuse happened at noma? Yes. Was it valid for people in the industry to be upset about it and, uh, upset with Renee? Yes.

Speaker A: Or have it mirror experiences that they have had in whatever environment. You know what I mean? Like if it rhymes with something that you have experienced and because it's not a NOMA type situation, maybe it didn't feel, I don't know, quote, unquote worthy to come out and share this type of story. I think that's the nerve that it really kind of hit in the industry where it's like, regardless of if you were a stage at NOMA or an employee at NOMA or all the way up to head chef at noma, maybe you didn't experience Renee abusing you but it, quote, unquote, rhymed with your experience in a way that I think that that's why it resonated, and that's why I think it got everybody to kind of pause and give it the attention that I think I hope it deserved. And, Ray, I think you and I. I kind of cut you off, so I want to let you finish. But I think that that's one of the reasons why we wanted to spend time on this, because you and I are such big advocates for improvements in kitchen culture, and we want the industry to. To thrive and do as best as it possibly can. So keep going.

Speaker B: I was just gonna say, too. We had Naoman who was a, uh, stage at NOMA for a while, and she kind of echoed the sentiment Jason had, and maybe not to that extent. So it's like, there's obviously, like, you know, it was not a great environment, and Rene rose up. He was not a great kitchen leader. But then it kind of started to morph into something a little bit different, and, like, the hate messages to Chef Pablo and all the other things, like, you know, uh, Rene is the. This is. Rene was put on a pedestal for this behavior when I was going into learning about all this stuff. So it's like, yeah, it's just. It's just wild. So, again, maybe industry does need to change. There doesn't need to be positive direction, but there also just has to be, like, a level of understanding of what do we want the outcome to be.

Speaker A: Continue on. I want to talk about the James Beard Awards. That just happened here in the U.S. those just happened, and I don't want to spend too much time on it. Obviously, we give our big hats off to all of the award winners, all the people who are recognized. I mostly wanted to give, like, a. I didn't watch the James Beard Awards. I didn't, you know, read the article that gave the recap. But, you know, if this can be a quick. In passing, you're listening to us on your workout or on your commute, and I can give you some quick hits. I want that this to be that. And so Michael Tusk of Quints in San Francisco won the Outstanding Chef Award. Kalia in Philadelphia won the Outstanding Restaurant Award. Adrian Torres of Maximo in Texas won the Emerging Chef Award. Lei in New York City won Best New Restaurant. And Nancy Silverton walked away with a lifetime achievement award. A very interesting restaurant that has been kind of making strides, not just in James Beard, but on World's 50 Best is called Dakar in New Orleans. It's A Senegalese restaurant. They won Best Chef south, adding to a huge run for them after they debuted. I'm almost positive in the top 10 of North America's world's 50 bests in. They showed very well in those awards, and that's showing in the bookings. So I gave the example with Nomad. I don't know, it's kind of a weird way that I personally use. We've used on the show in the past to kind of like, okay, X, Y, Z thing happened at this restaurant. How is it actually showing in the in business? It's completely sold out for the next three weeks from what OpenTable is telling me at Dakar. And so huge shout out to. To to them and that team. If you have anybody that you were particularly excited to see at the James Beard Awards win or get snubbed or any of the media awards that stood out to you. I know that I had mentioned that I take the media list and I kind of use it as a suggested curated reading list or watching list for myself. And so if you have anything that has particularly caught your attention or you enjoyed, please, please leave those or meal that you've had, please leave those in the comments because we always love to hear from you folks. Ray, I don't know if you had thoughts on the James Beard. I know that those happen in Chicago every year, and so I don't know if anything stood, uh, out to you.

Speaker B: Uh, no, not necessarily. Um, I think it would be cool to go at some point, but I believe only one restaurant or one Chicago chef, actually that was like an article in Eater was awarded. So I think City of Chicago maybe felt a little bit left out, but I don't. I don't really have, like, I like the same with you. I like to like, follow the, the restaurants being awarded. It's also cool. I also, like, really do enjoy the. The lifetime achievement award. I think that I want to see more of that in the restaurant industry, where it is cool to recognize, uh, an chef owner operator that does a lot of good things, like Nancy Silverton. So, yeah, not much beyond that. But, you know, congrats to everyone that won one.

Speaker A: Moving on from James Beard, I want to talk about the Michelin guide, specifically a story that I saw from a restaurant that a mentor of mine actually ended up being the head chef at that has had a really interesting story in how they've, like, lost their Michelin stars and how they brought a new chef in that is not completely unprecedented. We're going to go into some of the specifics for this story. But it was something that we don't see happen that often. And so this is a restaurant called Saizan in Tokyo. Daniel Calvert was the chef there for the initial creation of the restaurant. Taking them from um, just a new place in Tokyo that was doing, you know, the way that he described it to me was uh, French food cooked by a guy from the UK and in Tokyo, which is like a very interesting combination to have happen. It was in a hotel, it's in the Four Seasons in Tokyo. And what has essentially happened is Daniel has left and then they've added a new chef in and Michelin had a very interesting reaction to all of this stuff. And so what this has. I'm going to read, um, some pieces from the press release or article that kind of covered some of this stuff. And then I'm curious to hear your reactions to this, Ray, because this kind of follows some of the frustrations I've had and I think others kind of share with Michelin and the way that they kind of navigate things or maybe don't do equal treatment across different restaurants or different geographies or different occurrences where it happens here. And then that's not okay. And we're going to strip the stars and we're going to make you quote, unquote, re earn them. Whereas in other like literal Michelin documentation they say otherwise. And so I'll dig into this here. Quote Tokyo Saan Restaurant, which once held the number one spot on Asia's World's 50 Best Restaurants list, has been quietly stripped of its three Michelin stars ahead of the guide's next Update in autumn 2026. The change follows the high profile departure of its opening chef Daniel Calvert in April, leaving his replacement, Stephen Lancaster to start from scratch. Quote Lancaster, who cemented his reputation in Singapore's competitive culinary scene at St. Pierre, leading the establishment to two Michelin star status, will face the pressure in reclaiming star status for Cezanne M. It will be familiar ground. In 2022, Lancaster debuted his restaurant Poise, which is now closed, clinching a Michelin star within its first year. Quote the shift is significant, given in an article on the Michelin Guide website from 2016. It states that, quote, star ratings remain unaffected even if a restaurant's head chef decides to leave halfway through the year and a new head chef comes on board, end quote. In another article published in 2025, in response to the question of whether Michelin removes a restaurant star designation following the of a head chef, the website literally states no Michelin stars are awarded to restaurants, not chefs. And we kind of covered that on, um, the last episode that we kind of did together after another Instagram person did a carousel on this. Going back into the quote. Quote. If a restaurant promotes a sous chef or brings in a new head chef and they maintain the same standard of cooking, then the restaurant will keep its star. End quote. And I'll kind of go into that last line here in a moment. Quote. This is not the first time Michelin has stripped a restaurant of all three stars after a chef's departure. So this is not unprecedented. The Iraqi in London made headlines when it lost its three Michelin stars after chef founder Mitsuhiro Araki left in March M of 2019 to open a restaurant in Hong Kong. He was replaced by his longtime protege, Marty Lau, but the restaurant has not regained any stars since. A more dramatic incident happened in July 2023, when Chef Stable at Brooklyn Fair in New York City abruptly closed following the firing of Chef Cesar Ramirez. Allegations of misconduct were kind of placed there. But unlike what happened at Chef's Table, uh, at Brooklyn Fair, Lancaster, who was hand picked by Calvert as his successor, describes the handover at Cezanne as smooth. Lancaster says, quote, I received a text from Daniel and he asked if I would be interested in coming to Tokyo. And I said yes straight away. He recounts, adding that Calvert did not mention the restaurant initially. A couple of weeks later, he called me back and said, by the way, you can't tell anyone, but it's for Cezanne. I was. I was essentially Daniel's pick. Of course, he is not going to choose someone only to leave them with a bad handover if they get the job. And it's been a great help. He said, in fact, I could text him right now and ask him for any advice. Michelin has clarified that Cezanne has been reintroduced into the guide as a new entry under a category they call immediate release, which is where Michelin inspectors typically announce new gems that are too good to wait until the next edition of the guide. The team also stressed that whenever a restaurant undergoes a major transformation, it is systematically reassessed to ensure that our evaluations remain accurate and consistent. So there's a couple points from these direct from Michelin statements that I kind of want to dive into. The first one is this idea of maintaining the same standard of cooking which, uh, in looking at Lancaster, Chef Lancaster's food, I'm not going to say it's like a departure or downgrade from Chef Danny's food, but I am just kind of interested in the way that this was potentially structured, could they have done something that was maybe a little bit more, quote, unquote, creative? And again, that, that, that maybe fits with the way that Michelin is approaching things, which is, could they have brought him in as the chef de cuisine of Cezanne for a while, or a sous chef under Danny, and then ultimately get it to a place where Danny is going to, quote, unquote, leave, and then he gets the promotion? And then it kind of fits enough of checks enough of the boxes that Michelin kind of doesn't look at it with any sort of, like, different view. But I think that that creates this really weird problem where if Chef Lancaster wants his food to be the creative output that's on display, does that then set him up for this weird failure where once he takes over, now it's half Danny's food, half, you know, his food, and then now all of a sudden we have this kind of like, Franken restaurant that doesn't have an identity and it doesn't necessarily feel like it's the best representation of what it could be. And so that was very interesting and strange, the fact that Danny again, was a mentor of mine when I was an extranet per se. And I've called him at different points in my career to ask him questions when I was at particular moments. And he's always answered the call. It's always been like, it does not surprise me that he wanted to do this as a productive handover. And I think that's also something that I want to highlight in this world of, you know, peacing out from a job or you're going to take a new role somewhere. And I just want to call this out as, like, a good professional behavior, as something that I think that we should applaud and see, see more of in some of these environments where it's not always the case that, that handovers look like this. But then it was very confusing to me that, like, this is not completely unprecedented. But then at the same time, this is not congruent with what Michelin says that they do or normally approach, uh, things. And so what's interesting to me now is if you go to Michelin site, I don't. I wasn't able to find this, like, immediate release thing on the site. But what you can do is if you go on the Michelin site and search selected restaurants as a distinction, then you can find Cezanne. And so that's just a, uh, weird, you know, kind of place to be. We have, you know, several months, four or Five months until we will see the guide officially coming out in Japan. And where it lands on World's 50 Best is up in the air. And so all of this stuff ends up being just a very weird transition handover. I know that other shows talk about chef shuffles all the time with a sense of what's the food going to look like? I haven't actually seen that much food. Um, when I went to go look at. I typically do this when I'm researching restaurants. You, you pick a restaurant and then you look at people who have tagged them. And then, then I try to see a sense of maybe a more up to date or in the moment example of what a, uh, menu looks like at, ah, one of these places. And there just haven't been that many examples of people sharing the food at Cezanne lately. And so I'm kind of very curious to see what that looks like, because so much of that place was tied to Daniel Calvert's cooking and his name and his face and him running the kitchen and the processes that he would do, the relationships he had with purveyors, all of those things were just integral in that restaurant. And I'm not saying that Chef Lancaster can't, you know, do that, but then, uh, it's big shoes to fill, if that makes sense. It's like, at what point, you know, does some of this stuff need to kind of transition and change? And it sounds like some of the other team members have changed to, to kind of go along with that. I don't know if you had thoughts on this story.

Speaker B: I mean, Michelin contradicting itself. What a, What a surprise. Uh, be interested to see what happens when the guide releases.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's not new, and it contributes to the confusion around some people, like, ultimately throwing up their hands and saying Michelin is BS or they tout all these things. I'm going to, again, try to be intellectually honest and say, I don't think this makes sense. But at the same time, I, I think that Michelin does a lot of good in other ways. And so I hope that's why you come to this show and listen to our coverage of some of this stuff, because we're not gonna, you know, totally glaze Michelin the entire time, but at the same time, you know, I'm gonna call them out when they, uh, when they, when they mess up. So. Okay, what do you want to do next, Ray?

Speaker B: Well, uh, we can cover Seattle if you want.

Speaker A: Okay. Okay. This next story is incredibly local to me. I am. We're Kind of covering this with maybe not the most amount of research, but I want to bring it to your folks's attention because this is literally like this. This article is. Has come out this morning. And this is covering the Walrus and Carpenter's saga that they're experiencing right now. Quote, Owners Release Financials as Strike Continues is the headline in the seattle today.com and this has been something that has kind of been bubbling up locally. Uh, there's been some local publications and Instagram posts and people who have kind of been talking about some of this stuff, uh, over the past, let's call it a week or so. But this was really like the, the big heady moment that happened today. And it was just a very interesting way for a business to experience something like this happening to them and then ultimately having it be a reaction that I was not expecting. And the. To just to cut all the way to the. To the end here. They released a full financial statement of 2025. Like, they published raw numbers in a spreadsheet. They published three Google Drive links that anybody can go and look at. It's on their Instagram. Like, link in bio is literally like, here's. Here's our financial performance. Because they were so frustrated with the way that employees who were on strike were kind of like portraying them as business owners. The way that the media or, um, the comment section maybe has kind of taken and twisted the story and kind of ran with it and it just turned into this whole thing that I want to cover today and link to some of you folks. I don't think that we have, like, a definitive answer to where this is going to land, but for the most part, and I'm very oversimplifying and summarizing more so because I kind of want to go into the. To the numbers of all this stuff, um, with you folks, is that the reason that there's a strike is because the organization employed a 22% service charge, which employees were saying was not being used in the way that they either thought it was going to be used or was advertised to them when they got there, when they signed their employment contract or when they did their onboarding. They thought it was going to be this thing, and then it's being used for other things. And so I'll read a couple of quotes from the article and then I'll go into some of the numbers and maybe we can throw some up on screen if that is of interest to you folks. Quote, the owners of the Walrus and Carpenter have opened their books for the first time since their workers walked off the job, releasing a year of financial statements, wage data and an open letter that argues the Ballard Oyster Bar and its sister restaurants are operating at a loss in a hospitality market they describe among the most punishing in the country. The disclosure shared by Sea Creatures, which is the restaurant group led by chef Rene Erickson and partners Jeremy Price, Chad Dale and Ira Lands, days after United Creatures of the Sea began an unfair labor practice strike on June 18 and one day after the restaurant closure of the evening, the evening of June 22, citing what management said were incidents of harassment, name calling and spitting directed at guests on the picket line. The union has not responded publicly to those specific allegations. Erickson and her partner say that they had largely stayed quiet for nearly two years and concluded that greater transparency is necessary. Quote. According to the company's self reported unaudited profit and loss statement, the group posts gross sales of about $17.5 million across its restaurants in 2025 and finished the year with a net loss of $787,120, or 4.5% of revenue as a loss. In the open letter, the owners write that the figure does not include the cash required to service roughly $10 million in company debt and that during slower months, they borrowed money simply to make payroll. They attribute the strain to a guest visit decline, and they estimate at 20% of a decline from 2024 and 40% from 2023, alongside rising labor ingredient and occupancy costs. And they tie the closures of the Whale Winds Bateau boat bar and two General Porpoise locations to the same pressures, end quote. As a person who lives in Seattle, my wife and I love going to Walrus and Carpenter. A friend of mine is a chef there. And so this is very hard for me to see one, because Rene Erickson, as a restaurateur in Seattle, has been somebody who, like, they listed a bunch of places here that have been just like, peppered throughout the city. And, uh, she, if I'm not mistaken, has a place that is, like, in development for Pioneer Square, which is like another neighborhood in, you know, just next to downtown. And it's one of those funny things where, like, the whale wins bateaus, like a steakhouse. Um, General Porpoise is like a donut, you know, location. And coming off of COVID it was one of those things where restaurants would close and she would become. Come in as a partner and, like, acquire them. And, you know, she was opening new locations. And then all of a sudden you come to see the actual financial statement. And it's like, okay, this person is actually not doing that well financially. One of the reasons that they cited in the story of wanting to get ahead of some of this stuff is that they wanted to basically put a line, uh, in the sand or a flag in the ground, so to speak, where they're basically wanting people to know that they're not underpaying their employees. And so I'll go into some of those numbers and then I kind of want to get your thoughts here, Ray. Regarding compensation. The company reports wage figures that are well above regional averages. Its materials list a mean all in rate of $49.07 an hour for servers, $38.87 for cooks, $32.60 for dishwashers at the Walrus and Carpenter compared with Seattle area means it attributes to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And then they give some of these examples with, you know, this is an individual, they work this role. They're a bartender here and they're getting paid $92,165 a year or they work in this role and they're getting paid $79,810 a year. The company pays half of the employee premium on its base medical plan, offers a 401k match of up to 4%, provides paid time off and a monthly wellness stipend. And so those all in wage rates include distributions from the 22% service charge the restaurant adopted on January 1, 2025, which is the same mechanism at the center of the labor dispute. So there's a lot of people, when you look at the comments of some of these posts that are understandably upset and it is that kind of like burn it all down, you know, type of rhetoric that I think gets touted when, you know, workers are getting, um, sometimes understandably exploited and sometimes even just like potentially, you know, abused. And that I think is like a useful mechanism. It actually uncovers tree. Do you know what I mean? Like, when there's real malpractice going on on the business side, it is useful to have some of these conversations happen.

Speaker B: But did you see this? And I wanted to ask, did you see this post? Like, uh, it was United Sea Creatures of the Sea Instagram that they claim that since January 1, 2025, Renee Erickson, Sea Creatures Group has kept over $487,000 in service charges.

Speaker A: Yep. So that's, Yep. That's the thing that they're like frustrated about or kind of like that's the reason that they're going on strike. And I kind of brought that up at the start of the story, where it's like, they have this 22% service charge, but is it all going towards the employees? Like, you're pitching it to guests as a way that gratuity is included, you don't need to leave a tip on top, like, and all of the fine print that kind of goes along with some of this stuff. If you really look at the profit and loss, they basically publish this, um, trailing 13 periods. The way that I'm reading it is each period is two weeks. And it goes from, um, January 1, 2025, to December 31 of 2025. And you can really go all the way down the, the list here. And what's, I guess, confusing about some of this stuff is like, there's the, uh, there's the, the debt repayment stuff. And then they have an uncategorized expense category which totals $1.156 million, a figure that's larger than the reported annual loss itself. The filing also records $954,000 in management fees and $129,000 in bonuses. And then they talk about the compensation for the leadership team. And so all of this stuff just ends up being like this perplexing thing where restaurant groups often get made because there's a brand that can get shared, there's infrastructure that can get shared. It provides a different landscape for staff to work amongst some of these things. But maybe in one of these cases, it turns into this problem where you have all of these organizations who are kind of like, sharing debt. You know what I mean? Like, using revenue from this place or profit from this place to pay off obligations from this place. You're borrowing money in order to pay payroll because you owe an investor XYZ amount of money. I'm not, like, making exactly these allegations, but it does turn into this very tricky beast where, yes, the transparency is valuable, but, like, there are weird questions that come up from, like, this is a direct export, it looks like, from Restaurant365, from Walters and Carpenter. And all of this just ends up being very, very confusing. The case study that I want to highlight or the thing that I want you folks to take away from here is looking at something like a service charge. We've talked on this show before ad nauseum almost about charging what you need to charge. And then this turns into this funny thing where you're going to say, okay, I'm going to include a service charger. I'm going to include this, um, 5% thing for employee, you know, health care or benefits for staff or XYZ thing. And if you don't have the financial wherewithal to actually track that money accordingly and have a paper trail where if an employee were to come to you or a person from the labor department comes to you, or somebody joins the management team and says like, hey, where is this money going? It turns into this really big tangled mess that unfortunately now they're having to unwind. And uh, uh, very similar to some of these other stories, like I'm not going to wish bad on this organization at all. But at the same time it does turn into this really tricky thing where it doesn't seem like things were set up well, do you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't see, like there's numbers and like they can obviously show their operating expenses and you know, their, their, their admin costs and all of these sorts of things like the spreadsheets there. But it doesn't feel like I have any sort of like resolution here where I can point to some of this stuff and say, okay, well, oh, here's where the money went, or like, oh, here's the thing. And it does turn into this problem where at a larger organizational level, maybe there's investors who are footing the bill for some of these things and some of this stuff needs to get paid back. That's, that's maybe the other devil's advocate point that I'm going to try to make before I get your thoughts here, Ray, is Rene has other people that she's trying to be accountable to in addition to the employees where, okay, XYZ investor put a bunch of money in here with the expectation that I'm going to get a quote unquote payout to repay this loan that I have given you or it's going to, you know, have. There, there's profits that are going to come here and it's going to kind of pay back this investment I made. And by doing this, it's going to kind of set me up to invest in your next project. There's all sorts of ways that businesses end up doing these relationships and these kind of like spit in the hand handshake kind of things. And not all of that ends up showing up on a P and L, at least in the way that this person has decided to export this. And so all of this stuff, I don't think again, like, gives us a very satisfying resolution. I also, uh, I don't know if you have thoughts on the way that the wages compared to either national averages or even citywide averages. I have A friend who's like very proud of what their people make at the event company that they, that they run. And that is something that this person brags about. And it's like pretty commensurate with what we're seeing here. And so all of that is enabled by the fact that this 22% charges is there. I just think the transparency around, we're saying it's 22% and then it's going to be used to pay off debt, it's going to be used as bonuses for management. And I'm not making those allegations. I just think that that is like when you're not, when you can't draw a straight line with financials, you leave that up to interpretation. And that is something that I want to just really hammer home with you folks because it turns into something that is going to bite you in the bud and you're going to have to deal with it in other ways. What are your thoughts?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean again this is, I know you kind of brought this up as we were on the fly with going, looking into Reddit, uh, Seattle, kind of seeing people talk like they're kind of saying like it's pretty incredible the wages being paid. Um, I have to do more research into what the union issue is, but uh, it does seem like they are paying fair, you know, somewhat fair wages. So is, is I'm trying to, I guess to understand the issue. Is the issue that there was more wages on the table that maybe weren't paid out or assumed not paid out by the restaurant? Is that kind of the unions um, stance?

Speaker A: Yeah. So they're saying, quote, uh, what authorized the strike was voting 18 to 2 to authorize the strike, saying it has filed unfair labor practice charges with the National Labor Relations Board. The union has said workers faced reduced hours, lost income, worsened benefits and the shifting of bargaining unit work to management during more than a year of negotiations toward a first contract and that it struck to pressure the company to bargain in good faith. The owners for their part say they believed a tentative agreement had been reached on March 4 before the union stepped back from it and that the strike followed a one hour deadline to accept the union's latest proposal. That is like at its core and I think I've mentioned this on the show before in relation to like union work and the way that some of this stuff gets negotiated or bargained for. If the restaurant has been seeing both rising, like we've covered this on the show, folks, you know, like Ray and I have been like beating this drum, it feels like for ages. If the restaurant is experiencing both sides of the squeeze, which is costs going up, whether it's rent cost or ingredient costs, or your insurance rate went up, or insert the thing and sales have gone down, it is very difficult for either the employee or insert the thing to like, bargain for more, ask for more. And I understand, like, this is with a rock and a hard place that I don't have a side that I'm trying to like, stand on. I'm, um, like, it's expensive to live in Seattle. Do you know what I mean? Like, some people, if you work in a place that has a lower cost of living, you might look at $38 an hour as a line cook and you're saying, oh, my God, this is like incredible. Like, I've never made $38 an hour before. I mean, like, for transparency, I've had offer letters at jobs coming out of culinary school for myself, or even at fine dining restaurants that are like 8, 25 an hour, you know, that's $30 more an hour than I used to get paid. But then you look at some of these things where, okay, this person is only working 30 hours a week. Some of this stuff was kind of categorized in some of the letters that, um, the sea creatures kind of put out about number of full time people vs number of part time people. And that turns into its own thing that you just kind of have to be aware of, of, okay, well, I'm making $38 an hour and I'm working 30 hours a week. It's like one of those reasons is because the restaurant is not busy. Do you know what I mean? Like, it is not a situation where we can responsibly keep you on staff today because there's not enough people in the restaurant. So that turns into its own thing where how are you going to have some of these guarantees included in the contract in good faith? I just don't. You know what I mean? Like, that's the frustration I have with some of these bargaining things where people, you know, slam it down on the table. And it always comes with this rhetoric of like, really wanting to put your foot down. And I understand you have to advocate for yourself in some way, shape or form, otherwise you're not going to get listened to. But it turns into this thing where I'm like, oh, man. Like, I feel the pain. Like, it makes. If it was cut and dry and it made sense and it financially worked out, I think you would reach an agreement in a much more civil way. But it turns into this problem where, like, both sides are asking for things, sometimes aren't realistic, aren't reasonable, aren't, uh, forecastable. You know what I mean? When we're seeing decreases of 20 to 40% in business, it's like having somebody come and ask you for more. It's like a very difficult proposition to say yes to. And so all of this stuff is, like, I like to talk about the full picture of some of these things rather than just focus on one element of the machine and say, oh, well, this is wrong and this should potentially be fixed. Running a business in this capacity and complexity and size and scale is something that I, you know, you have to have those skill sets either developed or those people around you to kind of have those conversations. Because when you don't, this is the result. And so I'm wishing this team and the workers and the management team, like, the best. I hope this ends up in a good place because, again, my wife and I love this restaurant, you know, and we love going here. And it would. It would really break our hearts if we ended up not being able to go here or, you know, if. I mean, this is going to affect much more than just Walrus and Carpenter if Rene Erickson ends up getting, you know, some sort of blacklist and is not able to, quote, unquote, function in Seattle anymore.

Speaker B: Interesting. Be interested to see what happens.

Speaker A: Totally.

Speaker B: Uh, let's just do. I know we're coming up in time. Let's just do your quick hits and that it should be good.

Speaker A: Okay, cool. I have a couple of quick hits that I want to touch on and then we'll, I think, wrap things up today. I was going to cover, I think Ray. Ray and I had some scheduling conflicts this week. And so, unfortunately, I have to give this to you folks as a, you know, retrospective because the welcome Conference tickets went on sale this morning and I. Ray, I didn't tell you exactly this story. I told you I got tickets, which is like, an exciting thing. If any of you folks are going to be at the welcome Conference, I hope to see you there. It's happening October 5th in New York City. And I, uh, basically, like, was on the website. I was. I had an alarm on my phone. Will Gujara said the tickets were gonna go fast. My wife is like the queen of getting. She used to do it in college with, like, getting, you know, the class that she wanted or, you know, like, um, anything that requires, like, in the moment. Like, it's 11:00am and this ticket, you know, is available. She's really, really good at that. And so she kind of like has shared some of her insights with me. What I was looking at very specifically was where is the button going to be on the ticket page? And I, like, I had a thought that I thought it was going to be like a third of the way down the page because they had like what looks to me like placeholder text. I was like, tickets will be available right here on our website. And I was like, I bet you when they updated it it's going to be right here. And so that's what I refresh. And I did it three seconds before the time and it worked. And I saw the tickets and I input my credit card information and I got it. And, and then I go back on the site and it says sold out, like right after I bought my ticket. So I was like, okay, on the event page, it's, it's, it's off. Let me go back to the welcome conference website. And it was like it was on a banner at the top, but the banner didn't load when I refreshed it. And I was like, oh my goodness, thank the Lord that I like scrolled to the right section on the page that I had a hunch on. This is like a very weird side tangent story. Anyways, uh, it's happening if, uh, there's a wait list currently, if that's something that you're interested in. I think Will Godard does a really good job of getting speakers across, not just hospitality. So there's like psychologists who are coming and authors who are coming. And I think it's just a really cool room of people and so very excited to attend that this will be my first time going to a welcome conference. If you folks have thoughts on the experience yourselves or if you're going to be there, please please let me know in the comments because I'd love to connect with you folks, um, while we're there. And the second one is just a quick hit on a Michelin restaurant in West Palm Beach, Florida. It's called Emelina. It is the world's first Michelin starred Cuban restaurant. So um, Osmel Gonzalez, who fled communism, became the world's first three, uh, first Michelin starred Cuban restaurant. A major milestone just months after the opening. And so that was something that I also wanted to cover as a. We've talked about Portugal, we've talked about India, we've talked about other different cuisines that have been getting Senegal. We've been talking about um, a bunch of different cuisines that have been kind of like in previous either Generations or years we've looked at some of these places and said, why aren't these more represented in the echelons of the Michelins and the world's 50 best of the world? And it's just like as people are getting more ambitious, as people are deciding that they're going to open some of these places, like, this person's story seems to be very compelling and it's showing in the way that the accolades are getting kind of distributed here. And so I wanted to kind of share that as a quick hit too. And those are the only two ones that really kind of caught my eye across these two weeks. Man, it's just been. We covered a lot of stuff today, like nerdy number stuff, award stuff, people ditching the Internet stuff. It's just kind of been a lot.

Speaker B: No, definitely. Maybe something a little bit different. Just a little tip. If you're at the end of this episode. I'm a big reader, as Justin knows. I'm reading a book right now called the Tainted cup by Robert Jackson Bennett. It's a 400 page, um, murder mystery, whodunit in a fantasy setting. And I was like, this is probably a good length for people like working in the kitchen. It's like really lean. It's an interesting story. So I don't m. Maybe start sharing this often because I'm a big reader, as Justin knows. But maybe just an end here. Uh, the Tainted cup might be a good read for people, uh, in the restaurant industry who have limited time and want to read a fantasy book. So I'm going to share that as my quick hit at the end.

Speaker A: Yeah, put it in the show notes. I used to, at the end of Emulsion Podcast, I used to do what I would call a non industry story because of what you kind of touted, Ray. Whereas like I. When you're working 12, 14, 16 hours a day in the kitchen, it can kind of be, uh, like a bubble in a way, in a way. And it can be helpful to sometimes like take your head up and touch grass and you know, like, I know that we're not sitting in front of screens all day when you're, you know, standing in front of your station or expediting at the pass or whatever your work entails right now. Uh, and so you don't have maybe the brain rot of just sitting and scrolling on TikTok all day as your problem, but it can be its own, almost like echo chamber of man. I don't really spend time outside of work doing anything. And I have certainly touted the benefits of interdisciplinary learnings. And sometimes the best ideas don't come from getting another cookbook or watching another recipe or technique tutorial. It can sometimes come exactly as you're saying of reading a, you know, reading something, watching a documentary on something that's completely unrelated. And so, you know, I've maybe lean a little bit more into that as I've, you know, not been in restaurants and I have kids now and I do a bunch of stuff that's like, outside the industry. And so I sometimes feel a little bit weird, you know, sharing that. Maybe we should make that a more, you know, like, recurring segment, you know, at the end of the show. If, uh, you're listening now and this is something that would be of interest to you and you need more recommendations of stuff. I think in both Ray and I's roles these days, we might be a little bit have more capacity to recommend you folks some cool stuff. And if that would be of interest, just let us know in a comment. We'd love to hear from you. Uh, but other than that, please like the video if you're watching on YouTube, subscribe if you have not already. Please leave us a rating. It really, really helps the show to get in front of people who care about coaching, care about training, care about performance in professional kitchens and hospitality environments. And we'll see you folks next week.