Season 9 | Ep40 Max Learmonth: From Kitchen Table to £2.4m in Three Years

Speaker A: In a good economy, everybody needs an accountant. In a bad economy, they need more accountants. I'd become an asshole like I was your atypical Wolf of Wall street recruitment dickhead. Um, somebody was doing a 30 grand, um, month. I wanted 40 and all I cared about was what my P and L looked like.

Speaker B: This is Max Learmonth, an ex professional rugby player who woke up one day and realized he was never going to be a millionaire or the next Johnny Wilkinson. So decided to stop playing. And then he did what a lot of people do and he fell into recruitment. And he was pretty good at it. At Robert Half, he. He grew quickly from trainee to running offices across multiple locations. Six years later, he left Robert Half and joined a small boutique business, directly reporting into the founder to see what it was like to run an agency of that size and scale, with one lens on the fact that he wanted to be a recruitment owner himself in the not so distant Future. So in May 2023, when his daughter was a year old, he decided it was time to stop. He built a business plan that was incredibly detailed from his kitchen table and decided to build an agency on his own. He turned down over half a million pounds of investment because he wasn't prepared to give that much equity of his company away. Forged Talent is built around one industry specialism, that is finance and accounting, but also one geographical location in the northwest of England. And they do nothing else. Three years of trading, they built a team of 16, 360 recruiters. And last year they did 2.4 million in net fee income that is completely bootstrapped without a penny of outside money. Money. Max is incredibly clear on the plan. By 2033, 10 years after starting, he wants to sell, exit, move on, do something else. You might have a load of money at the end of it. You've missed that time with them in the first 10 years. Have you thought about that?

Speaker A: Yeah. Super disciplined. I'm in the gym at 4:30 in the morning, right. 4:30, six days a week.

Speaker B: So this is a story about building a modern recruitment agency that is incredibly niche, about backing human relationships at a time when most founders are trying to automate them away, and about exactly what this man is building when his exit is seven years away and he's got two kids under the age of four. So this is a brand new episode of the Rag podcast with Max Learmonth. 3 years old, 16 staff, 2.4 million in net margin and a plan to exit in 2033. Max, welcome to the Rag Podcast.

Speaker A: Thanks for having me. M on Mate, uh, we got there in the end. It's been a few years in the making.

Speaker B: This I know, I planned. I think we initially chatted about it before you even set the business up three years ago. And now, uh, there's been plenty of conversation. But we are here, it's July, it's 2026, and, uh, I'm buzzing to finally find out the detail as to what you've been up to. Um, Max, we're going to get into the story, the history and everything in between. Right. But for people that don't know you and Forge, right now, just give us the start with the, with the elevator pitch, uh, of who you are today. The no detail, just the high level and we'll get into it.

Speaker A: Yeah, of course, mate. Um, so Force Talent was a business born, uh, in May 2020 23, not to reinvent the wheel, but to, to do things differently. We are a finance and accounting recruitment business that is based just in the Northwest. That is our, that is our specialism, core focus. Um, and we're going to come on to all that stuff. May 2023 started off just me around the kitchen table and, um, fast forward to today. We're. We're a team of 16. Um, we've been bootstrapped, it's been self funded, it's just grow, grow, grow.

Speaker B: But you did 2.4 million in through. In the third year.

Speaker A: In the third year, yeah.

Speaker B: That is insane. Growth from your, from your, uh, kitchen table. So well done.

Speaker A: It's been a lot of hard work, mate. Blood, sweat, tears and everything in between.

Speaker B: You don't look any different. You've normally founders like me go a bit grayer or a bit balder. You look, if anything, I think you look a bit younger.

Speaker A: I've been on holiday, mate. That's right.

Speaker B: I know what it is.

Speaker A: I've been on holiday and I've got health coach.

Speaker B: Get your health coach out. You look well, hon. Like, you do meet some people after they start a business and you're like, it took its toll, mate. You're doing all right there. Um, so. All right, so we'll straight away, I mean, we'll go in the story in a minute, but like your niche within a niche really, because what you've said is finance and accounting only, and then geographically you've niched it as well. So I reckon some people are thinking straight away, like, that's quite a small market you're going after there. Like, is there enough scope in that? Like, I just want to challenge that straight away. We'll Go into the story in a minute. But that's just in my head.

Speaker A: Huge. Right. You got to think about it, right? In a, in a good economy everybody needs an accountant. In a bad economy they need more accountants.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Because you've got cash flow pressures and, and all that type of stuff. You look at uh, the investment that's gone into Manchester in the last 10, 15 years, it's been incredible. You look at uh, the economy from a, ah, from a Manchester marketplace perspective, it's like double digit growth where, where the UK as a whole isn't.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and you look at the landscape in terms of private equity, um, and the sheer volume of transactions that have happened over the last sort of three, four years. The market is absolutely there. Then you've got larger PLCs, you've got SME, high growth, family owned businesses as well. Everybody within the business and we're going to touch on it has. So we probably micro niched it down further. Everybody's got their own specialism. So it's. And I think that's one of the, one of the reasons why we've grown as quickly as we have.

Speaker B: Amazing. I mean, I don't, I talk about this all the time. Right. I'm a big, big, big believer that the more niche you are going forward, the more valuable you're going to be because the AI will dominate the generic stuff, like anything that's, you know, loose. I think technology will be able to do better than you. But the more specific you get, the more, I think the more value you hold. So you've gone, you've gone super niche there. We'll go into that again in a bit, but excited by that conversation already. Um, so look, you, you weren't always a recruiter. You were a rugby player originally. So tell us how you go from being a professional rugby player to being a recruiter.

Speaker A: Uh, I think I decided rugby was all that I'd done from, from a really, really young age. Like all the different academies, like the international stuff, age, grades. Um, and I just decided at a young age. I remember waking up one day, we'd been playing. I was playing down south at the time. We played Saracens on a Friday night. Remember waking up on Saturday, it just felt like I'd been hit by a truck. I think I was 22, 23 years old at the time. You also had. I had a realization that I wasn't going to be the, I wasn't going to be the next Johnny Wilkinson and get that drop call in the World Cup. So what year are we talking about 2011. Right, 2011. 2012.

Speaker B: Because I went to uni with Dave Strettle.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. He was at Roverham Titans, I think, for a bit. Where you played.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I, I was there, did a brief stint there and just, just decided that, you know, rugby wasn't the be all and end all. Um, so I decided not. You can tell from the accent you're

Speaker B: making money from it a little bit. It wasn't like, no, just a normal living.

Speaker A: Not, not what it is now, normal living. And. And it was hard work. So I'm not that you can tell from the accent anymore. I'm originally from Edinburgh, so I was like, right, I'm going to move back to Edinburgh and I'm actually going to decide what I want to do. Toyed with the idea of becoming an accountant, going into investment banking. But I just didn't like the idea of having, um, to study because I got a degree while I was playing rugby.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, um, I completely fell into recruitment. Um, I think Robert Half at the time had advertised like a trainee recruiter type role. Hit apply, got invited in for one conversation. I literally started two weeks later.

Speaker B: Yeah, he's a classic ex sportsman, smart, done a degree. I mean, it's literally the perfect profile in recruitment, I think.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ah, especially back then as well.

Speaker B: Absolutely. You ticked all the boxes that most Rector X would absolutely love. I used to get Rector X ringing me like, this guy played at, you know, first team Loughborough.

Speaker A: I'm like.

Speaker B: And like, that was the first thing they'd say before they'd mentioned anything else. I'm like, yeah, I'm not sure that means he's going to be a great recruiter. It doesn't mean everyone who's played football or rugby or whatever's great, but you, um, you know, you've made that transition. Robert Half, huge organization. How did your career pan out there?

Speaker A: Uh, I can't thank Robert Half enough. Um, started as a trainee. Trainee transactional finance on a temp desk. First year went extremely well, but I think a large part of that was because of the manager that had around me but build close to 180 grand. Robert Half being Robert Half max, do you want to transition into qualified finance? I saw pound signs. Second year was 300, you know, and then it, then it went from, can you manage the team that was going extremely well. Um, and, um, managing director of Robert Half, Phil Sheridan.

Speaker B: You moved from Edinburgh down to England with Ned.

Speaker A: Yeah. So Phil flew up on like a Thursday night to have a Conversation with me about what I thought it was just going to be a pat on the back and well done. Um, flew up to basically tell me that, uh, I was moving to Manchester and he, he was basically wanted me to go in and rebuild it. And I, I was like three years in at the time. Monkey see, monkey do. It was KPI, KPI, KPI. But there's a theme in my career, right, and it's all about opportunity. So jumped at the chance, moved down and then I was there for sort of three and a half, four years. Went to sort of regional ad type role, you know, managing multi multi geographies and absolutely loved it.

Speaker B: Would you say you preferred one or the other, like the billing role or the, like the external stuff or the internal stuff? Where, where did you, uh, think about now?

Speaker A: Love being customer focused. I absolutely love being out there meeting new businesses. Um, but I was a product of my environment at half. And because I'd done that for three and a half, four years and done it really well, my role had changed. So it was, we need you to go in and manage the office, build the office. So my role, a role completely changed, um, but still had a, still had a phenomenal time.

Speaker B: Yeah. So you did you completely come off the tools for a bit?

Speaker A: I completely came off the tools from 20, back end of 2016 to, to 2019 before I left. Completely off the tools. And because it was a, it was burn it down and start again. So when I went in it was like a hatchet job. Take it down to five heads and then grow it. And um, we had three or four different revenue streams by the time I left. We had sort of 55, 60 people. Um, so it was, it was totally different. And that, that was the main emphasis of what I was doing.

Speaker B: So then you joined a smaller business, fjr. Uh, what was the motivation to leave? Because it sounds like you had a good, good gig there.

Speaker A: Great gig, Luke. And the career trajectory was there. If I'm honest, Sean, I'd become an like, I was your atypical Wolf of Wall street recruitment. Somebody was doing a 30 grand month, I wanted 40. Somebody was putting in six temp starting a week, I wanted eight. I was a product of my environment and all I cared about was what my P L looked like and being able to stand up at a director chart review and say, look, don't my numbers look great? That isn't me, but that's what I've become. Um, I always had in the back of my mind at some point I was going to Want to set my own business up. Now you've got a $6 billion business at the time, big corporate safety net. You need to. You need to move away from that to actually understand what it's like to run a business if you eventually are going to do it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So, yeah, randomly bumped into, uh, John, um, on a ski trip, of all places. We got talking, um, and I was bought into. I was bought into what he was trying to do at the time. So decided to join. I think it was October 2019 that. Yeah, I joined FJR.

Speaker B: And what, what did you walk into there?

Speaker A: Um, financial pressures, uh, like across the board. Small team. What's that? Sorry?

Speaker B: Was it a small team at the time or small?

Speaker A: Small. In Manchester, it was pretty. It was pretty dysfunctional. We had a number of people that thought they could lead, that couldn't. We had people in non billing roles that just weren't. Weren't right for the business. Bad people that hadn't really had any form of training in different areas. Um, so it's a case of come in and do a similar job to what I'd done at Robert, half to a degree, but just with a different spin on it and burn it down

Speaker B: and start again in Manchester.

Speaker A: Only, though, in Manchester, only to start off with. Then that rolled to, uh, can you go and do it in London? Then it was, can we launch Edinburgh? Um, and pretty quickly, yeah, I was. I was across the three locations.

Speaker B: Right. So you. There's a habit there, there's a trend there, isn't there, that you assume. You keep assuming more responsibility. When you get in, for one thing, suddenly you're doing more and more and more and more. What, what, what. Where does that come from?

Speaker A: I think it's ambition. Like, if I'm coming, if I come to do a certain thing, I'm always one of these people. It's, what's next? What's next? What's next?

Speaker B: So you go into other people, like above you and saying, look, I can do that. Or they saying, you've done well here. Can you do this? Or is it.

Speaker A: They're saying, you've done well. Can you do that for us?

Speaker B: So you're not going in and saying, I want more, I want that. It's more. The performance speaks for itself. So they're like, what more could he do?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. I think that's. That's just been the nature of my career up until. Up until setting up. Up until setting up Forge.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um. And what. Because I know you, you guys got FJR Uh, up to a pretty strong place. Right. So where was it at its peak when you were running it?

Speaker A: 55, 60 heads, three locations, circa 50 million. 50 million in revenue.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So we got it to, we got it to a really good place. And it, and it was like, it was a brilliant environment, like, to work in. Like, the culture was extremely strong. It was still work hard, play hard. Um, but, uh, people were earning well, people having a lot of fun and we, and we were growing.

Speaker B: So what changed for you to set your own business up?

Speaker A: I think, um, Delilah being born. So Delilah was born in December 2022. Um, I could also see a huge shift going on in the market in that the status quo, the people that had always been the big players were, were starting to really, really struggle. Um, there was also a transition or wave of new CFOs, new finance directors who were, um, of my demographic. Um, and I just saw too much, too much of an opportunity. There was certain businesses that were going into admin, they were really starting to struggle. Um, and I got really pissed off with the nature of the industry and I was part of it. Like, recruitment has a really bad reputation. I definitely contributed to that. Like, up until sort of 2020, 2021. Um, like, it wasn't about, um, the candidate or the client. It was about a quick fee. And, um, I wanted to, I wanted to change that. And the best way to do that is you. You for me was to, to go and set up by myself and start again.

Speaker B: Because I remember speaking to you roughly around the time you were doing it

Speaker A: and

Speaker B: you were serious. Like, I remember the, the seriousness of, like, in your eyes, the way you explained what you wanted. You, you weren't messing about. Like, there's some people who say, I've had enough, I want to start my own firm. I was probably more in that camp that I knew I wanted to do it for myself. I was a bit disgruntled of running someone else's company and I was like, you know, I'm going to do my own thing. Did I have a master plan of how it was going to look? No. When I came up with the idea for Hoxo being slightly different, my brain went into overdrive. And I did start planning, but still not to. I don't think I was ever at the level you showed me. You've shared your screen and showed me that the PNL plans and growth plans, and I don't remember the numbers, but I think it was pretty probably quite similar to what you've gone on to do.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So where does that come from? That like, oh, is that, is that the Robert half trained guy that can, can actually forecast correctly and has the ability to, to build a robust business plan?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I think part of it, I think there's this part of that when you come from that corporate environment, you know, you know what good looks like, you know the way certain elements of your business you'd run. Um, I had a clear goal from day one, M 2033, I want to sell, build, scale, exit. Now whether that's to pe, whether that's to trade, whether that's management buyout, you can't do any of that without a plan. I've worked really closely with a CFO for the last seven or eight years. Um, and um, she was one of the first people that, when I was thinking about setting up, it was like, this is the stuff I'm going to need help with because I'm not an accountant. Yes, I can forecast, yes, I can budget. Didn't know anything about cash flow or anything like that, so I needed, um,

Speaker B: P L is very different to cash flow forecasting and actually running a real business where you've got to make payroll. Right. It is difficult.

Speaker A: Of course it is. Of course it is. So I was really early on, like the stuff that you're talking about, I was working really, really closely with, with her and she's a big, big part of where we are today.

Speaker B: So when you say you knew from day one you wanted to sell in 10 years, break that down, uh, where does that desire come from? What did you work? Uh, like what was that attached to?

Speaker A: Uh, first of all, gut. Like I am a big, big gut, instant person and look, there is planning and stuff that goes behind it for me. I knew how hard it was going to be early on and it still is. I knew it was going to be a graft. My kids are young. I've got a, I've got a four year old. Well, turning four and Delilah turned four in December and Grace turning two in December. Um, and I just had in my head that for 10 years I was going to pedal as hard as physically possible to, to achieve a certain multiple on an EBITDA valuation. And then I, then I want to be out. Um, but I want to create a legacy to do it and I want to leave something that I could be genuinely proud of. And for me, 10 years it felt like, gave me enough time to do that because we were uh, we were a new brand. We were that Challenger brand in the marketplace and.

Speaker B: But no girl when you, when you set up about. She just, just turned one.

Speaker A: Uh, no, when we set up, Delilah was what, when we went live in May, Delilah was six months, seven months old.

Speaker B: That's right. So she's tiny. Yeah, but that is, that is a big mo. I think there's a. Coming from my own experience, it does change you a lot as a person in that when you, and you have that little one especially maybe as well, a little girl. I don't know. There's something about a daddy and a little girl. It just like you have a different fight for, for what you want. Right.

Speaker A: Thank you. Right. Look, I've always been, I've always been insanely ambitious. I always, I always will be. It's my best trait and it's my worst trait. But ah, I thought 10 years to build, establish a brand, to then scale a brand to then exit. That means that I've got, you know, the next 20, 30 years, whatever that looks like with my family. And it was, uh, you know, Daniel and I, my wife spoke about it at length, um, before I set up, but she was the biggest like cheerleader in the background saying, like, you've got to do this. Like, you absolutely have to do it.

Speaker B: Um, I know you were thinking about taking investment, you were thinking about getting some funding. What, what happened in the end? Because that was obviously there was a, there was a level of. You wanted to like hire on day one and accelerate growth. I remember the conversation, but you didn't do that. So talk us through what actually happened.

Speaker A: Met a number of, number of different people, some of them, some of them that, you know, a number, a number of different people and got offered, you know, it, it ranged from a couple hundred grand, um, up to over half a mil, um, to, to, to basically go from day one, have 10, 11 people from day one. I think when it came down to it and what they actually wanted from that, from an ownership point of view, I just, I just wasn't comfortable with. I, um, wasn't comfortable with giving half of the business away from, from day one because I knew how hard it was going to be. And, and really other than that investment, what were they going to offer me?

Speaker B: Yeah, you didn't need, you didn't need that much other than money at that point because you had all the knowledge you needed.

Speaker A: Exactly. So that's, um, yeah, went through those conversations and m. Like the great individuals that I spoke to, um, but it just, it just wasn't right. Like when it actually came down to it, is this, is this actually, actually what I want. From day one, or do I just want to go and carve this out by myself with the great people that I've got in my corner, um, and just go for it. That's ultimately where. Where I landed.

Speaker B: Yeah. So where did the name come from?

Speaker A: Just wanted to be different. Um, it was me. I remember sitting. I remember sitting in France. Daniel's family are, uh, they live over there now. And I remember sitting. Sitting in front. I think. I think I resigned from. From FJR.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: Uh, in the March of 2023, we went out to France for a couple of weeks. Remember, just sitting there with a notepad and it was like, right, what. What looks cool? What looks different? And then I just landed on Forge, and it was forging ahead, forging networks, forging relationships, all of the stuff I wanted to be our DNA and what we were trying to do. Um, and it just. It looked really, really good and it felt good, and I had loads of other names. It's a bit crap. Could use that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: When I landed on Forge, it was like, yeah, great. And the talent bit is just. I. I want us to be, uh, an extension of the business. We're a true talent partner. So we had to have something that just. Was. Was that. That different, but added in that dimension as well.

Speaker B: Yeah. And for. I mean, obviously I live in Sheffield now. Manchester, but live in Sheffield. And forged in steel is written everywhere over here. Like, you know, it's the Sheffield United kind of strap line. And, you know, there's Ford Masters Steel Works, and it. I don't know, there's something about. For. It's a grit. Uh, to me, that word symbolizes hard work and grit and, you know, friction and trying to create something. So, I don't know. I like it. It's a nice. I think it. It mirrors you.

Speaker A: I think I'll take that, mate. I'll take that.

Speaker B: Uh, and I'm a brand guy, so I'm telling you, I think it's. It's funny.

Speaker A: I get.

Speaker B: I do get people ask me, what

Speaker A: do you think of this?

Speaker B: I'm like, I've got a clue, but sometimes, uh, it does resonate. So I think you've. You've been on a lot of podcasts. I've listened to a lot of the stuff you've done with other people. I don't. I don't want to just repeat what they've said. I know the setup, you know, the startup story for you. It's quite classic. But what. What I am interested in is, like, how you ran it against the plan. So you, because you had a plan, better plan than anyone. Uh, I honestly think it's one of the most detailed plans I've seen of anyone. Set up a recruitment company to talk me through all that. Tracked against what you thought it was going to do, because that's the bit that people really want to hear is the candid nature of what actually happened. So tell us what you thought year one would look like and then how you tracked alongside it, what worked, what didn't. Let's go into the detail of this. Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, I think year one, from a financial point of view, we. We slightly overperformed. Um.

Speaker B: What did you hit again?

Speaker A: 680. Yeah, so. So we slightly, slightly overperformed. What I. What I'd hoped was that 70 of that was going to be from a, uh, from an interim point of view and the rest of it was perm. Um, the reality of that is it was more like 75% of that was perm and the rest was interim.

Speaker B: So I mean, to hit that much money interim in the first year would be difficult anyway. The nature of how much you make on each deal, as every month of the year that goes, it's hard to claw that.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, absolutely. You add in fixed term contracts into that as well. So that's kind of what I was hoping. And I brought two people on board, like, really, really early on that in my opinion, two of the best interim recruiters in. In. In the Northwest. Yeah, Adam's still with us. I may as well just set fire of cash though, like in that. In that first 12 months, when you've got, you know, you got two salaries and IT. And we look, we did an interim deal like inside the first three weeks, and it was like, this is great. Yeah, like th a week margin. Right. We can get cooking now. And it was like the reality is the interim market took 18 months, 2 years to. To even remotely get to a place where. Where I was happy.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And that's where, you know, having CFO in the background who's phenomenal, just keeping me on track from a, uh, from a cash point of view. But when we. When we started, and I say the bit about perm, perm was me. So I was literally placing everything and anything from a finance point of view. Like, one minute was a purchase ledger clerk, next minute it was an fd. I was trying to get people who are immediately available so I could build that bank of invoicing. M. Um, so it was just. It was just an absolute graft. Um, we had one KPI. We've still got one core KPI. You meet eight to 12 people a week. Um, I want 50% of it face to face. Because for me, that's your opportunity to just.

Speaker B: You can do that. Leaning into that geographical niche, you can

Speaker A: do that 100%, 1%, hundred.

Speaker B: I think the benefit, like my business, it'd, uh, be impossible because, you know, you're in manager. I've got a client in la, I've got a client in Sydney. It's nonsense. But, yeah, depending on how you set your company up, you can, you, you really can still do that.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And look at it. It's what people. Is what now. Um, I look back now is what people want. Yeah, people want value ads. People want you to go in and display that level of credibility and show that you actually know what you're talking about. So we add that KPI and we just went for it. Hell for leather. And it took like it was 14, 15 a week we were doing. And then all of a sudden you start to.

Speaker B: You physically go into those offices or meeting them in coffee shops or what were you doing?

Speaker A: Coffee shops, people's offices. Like, yeah, independent, independent places. Just meeting, like, what was your way in?

Speaker B: Because can't. All these CFOs can't have work for you at that point. So what was your, what was your angle?

Speaker A: Brand new Challenger. Brand. Uh, we are going to be the biggest in the Northwest in a period of time, whether it's you work with us today or you work with us in four years. For me it's about the long game. So give me an opportunity. Let me, let me talk to you about what we do. Because it's not about putting a bomb on a seat. Like, we, we identify the problem, sell the solution. That solution all the time isn't what you think it is. Um, help people redesign teams, help people look at their, look at their recruitment process. Like, just add value and turns um, out that's what, that's what people want, is what people still want today.

Speaker B: Um, um, the angle again, you're, you're another level to what I was in recruitment, right? As in my career was I never started an agency, but I was, I was a good recruiter. And that the confidence in your delivery of just that little line then was kind of what I used to try and do, right? And I used to always say to people, like. And actually it didn't, didn't turn out to be true because I used to say, I'm not going anywhere. Right? Uh, that was my line. I'M not going anywhere. This market, the market I operated one was geographically one mile around the Gherkin Lloyd's or London Insurance Market. Right. I need to say, I ain't going anywhere. I'm walking the streets past your office every single day of the week. Like, I'm. I was doing three or four meetings a day in Leadnor Market and around the grounds. And I'd be like, I can guarantee that. I'm. I haven't got anything for you now. I'm not even gonna lie. I'm gonna make up a job for you. I'm not gonna make up. I've got a great cv. But I promise you we're gonna. I'm gonna be valuable to you and you're probably. You're gonna be valuable to me. I used to be like, it'd be mute. It's going to be mutually beneficial if we spend an hour together now. And, uh. People were like, yeah, and. But it's the confidence of the delivery of that. Because I would then ask my team to go and say that on the phone. And it didn't sound the same. It did not sound the same. But you've got that steel about you that you're like, you believe what you're saying, right?

Speaker A: And I genuinely believe it. I genuinely believe it. It's like people. People want you to add value. So go and add value. Yeah. Like, don't sit there and talk about any upcoming recruitment. It's like, go and understand the business, understand them as a person. So that. And go and just go and spend time, get to know them. It's like, now we're three years on M, and it's like some of the CFOs that I spoke to right at the very start of Forge, then our mates, like, then they're now people that, yes, we've done a load of business with them, it's great. But they're now like friends for life. Um, and it's, go in and immerse yourself in that market, immerse yourself in the network, be an expert like. Like in your field.

Speaker B: Um, that wouldn't have. That wouldn't have been as easy if you just sat there behind a P and L sheet with a load of money and gone, right, here's 10 recruiters on day one. Go and tried to manage them as you did a previous company, would it? Like, you. You. I think as a founder, you've got to get out and walk the streets at the beginning. You've got to go and do it yourself. Like, you got to go and feel it and live it. And, yeah, I think to get that, to get that brand moving.

Speaker A: I agree. Like, you got to be. You got to be the face of the brand. You got to be out there with customers all the time. You got to. You got to from the front in everything that you do day in, day out. And I think early on, and I still do it today. That's, that's exactly, it's exactly the way I am. Um, but that's what I'm saying. Like, it was hard, mate. Like, it was really hard. Like I said, hadn't been on the tools for a long time. Like, everything, everything was a cold call and you were just. All you wanted was that window of opportunity. And as soon as you got the opportunity, couldn't care if it was in Blackburn, 8 o' clock on a Monday morning. Like I was there. Yeah. Um, just to display that, uh, that level of professionalism, that level of credibility, but also that what we're trying to do is slightly different, not reinvent the wheel, but we're trying to add a ton of value, not just make a quick fee.

Speaker B: Because you've said that publicly a lot. And I've. I've shouted, um, I did a newsletter about your content. Right. Because I think it's been great. But you are very open that, like, recruitment has become very transactional. The average recruiters are actually terrible in the fact that they're just thinking, so how do, how do you. Because you all. But you've also said in the same paragraph that in the first year you're trying to make. You're just trying to get fees in, whether it's a clerk, whether it's a cfo. You're not. Uh, so how do you, how do you go for that short term win?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Without becoming that, uh, transactional guy that you're. You're fighting against.

Speaker A: Because I can go for that short term win and I can still. I can still help them redefine a process. I can still help them restructure their team. I can still. If we're talking about get an exit ready or post exit, whether it's a new system, whether it's a new process, I can still do all of that. So I can add a ton of value and I can place a finance manager and I can place a management accountant. So it's. You can still do all of that, rather than just focus on the end goal, which is a quick fee. Yes. Early on, we needed to make placements. We still need to make placements now, but you can go about it, in my opinion, in a very, very different way. And I think that's the difference with, you know, where I was 10 years ago. It's just about the placement that wasn't really bothered about the next fee and the next fee and the next fee. Um, whereas now it's, let's go out there and build a proper relationship. I say all my guys now, I don't give a shit what your expenses are each month. Couldn't care less. Like, just get out there and meet people. Coffees, lunches, people drink, take them for a drink. If they don't, just go and spend time with them. Get yourself to networking events. I really do not care.

Speaker B: Play paddle.

Speaker A: Everyone else play play paddle. Yeah, A lot of our guys play paddle as well. Right. So just get out and spend time with people.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and then when, and then when you do get an opportunity, deliver.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's the big one. When you. If we go back on that first year then though. So to recap, you predicted similar money, but you thought there'd be a lot more contract revenue than permanent. And I imagine you felt like the split of income would come from the, the people you hired as well. It was more leveraged on you and perm. Um, Right. That's the truth.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's absolutely the truth.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that's something for people to realize, like, don't matter how good you are as a manager, what kind of investment you're prepared to put into people in first year, you've got to be prepared. You're probably going to be the lion's share of the billings. You and your business partner, or just you, whoever you.

Speaker A: Let's be honest, year two, year three, it should be the same as. Well, we spoke about numbers before. It. It should be the same because you're bringing people in and, uh, I know we're going to touch on this, but bringing people in, like, different levels of experience, different restrictions, different covenants. You can't just sit there and say, right, guys, get out and meet people. And yeah, I'm just going to sit in the office like you got, you got to be out out there, like showing people, showing people how to do it. Um, one of my biggest buzzes that I still get is it's not necessarily about placing somebody, but sitting down with, with a new business and actually go going through the intricacies and the nuances of what actually makes their business tick. Challenges. They've got opportunities for them to grow. It's like, I love that stuff, mate. And you've still got to do that, uh, day in, day, uh, out. And I've got no doubt that at some point, at some point in the future, my role will, will change, it'll need to change. But while, while we're still agile enough, while we're still flexible enough, while we're still growing and scaling. I love this shit. I really do.

Speaker B: As season recruiters, we all know that the best information we gather from our calls don't always make it onto the CRM. I know for me personally, it never did. You know, it's in the call, it's in the interviews, in the meetings, perhaps in an email, LinkedIn, or even this day and age, it's WhatsApp. What someone's really motivated by, why they'll move, type of money they want, which client you know is ready to buy. The types of information that you can use often gets lost because nobody's got time to type it up. And again, awful at it. Personally, I want to highlight Atlas, uh, our headline sponsor for the show, because they literally change this completely, right? Yes, Atlas is a CRM, but it's a CRM that actually understands content text. It captures everything you say, you hear, you read, you write automatically, right? Using AI, it's not because you've had to sit and type it, it's because Atlas was listening in the first place. Then it goes one step further and tells you the next action to take. So it's got workflow processes built in and when you need to fill a role, they've got something called People Search, which ranks your best candidates and tells you why they are the best candidates so you don't have to dig. You know, the same memory turns into BD and that same memory turns your BD into a short list of exactly who to chase and why, so you win more work. And if you want to see your pipeline, you just speak to your dashboards and Atlas builds it for you, the view that you want in real time, tracking only what you care about. Like this is genuinely bonkers to believe it's all possible in one platform with AI, but it is. So whether you're perm or contract, it does both for contractors. They've made it so you don't even have to change timesheets again, right? They've got a live margin visibility tracker across every placement. And with their new MCP and API, Atlas connects, Atlas plugs straight into your LLM, Claude, chat, GPT, whatever you're using, and the rest of your stack. So basically, all of the low volume admin tasks that keep you from billing Atlas can do for you right now. This is a genuine game changer. Like it's not theory. Atlas customers are seeing 50% higher candidate response rates, 35% increase in clients, 115 plus hours saved every single week. Their billings are jumping up one client by 85% in the last six months. And some agencies are hitting 130% of their annual target after building their business around one platform called Atlas. So if you're sat there thinking, look, I need to bolt AI into my CRM, I honestly wouldn't bother. I get asked this all the time. Don't just try and bolt in. I'd have a look at Atlas. Take a look. All right, head to www.recruitwithatlas.com rag to find out more. I promise you it won't be wasted time. All right, let's get back to the show. So what's the, what is the design of the team then? Obvious you've talked about everyone's got their own niche within the niche, so what's that look like?

Speaker A: So we've split it. So we've basically got four, four core brands, um, within the business. So you've got your transactional and part qualified finance. And that is sort of 26, 27k a year up to up to that sort of 40 mark.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: We've then got traditional and commercial finance. So that's your newly qualified accountants, financial accountants, finance business partners, FPA. So that's your 40 up to your sort of 80k level. Um, and then we've got leadership finance, which is anything that's got direct responsibility. So your controller, uh, head of FD, CFO, which is typically 80 up to 160, 170 level. So we've got that and then we've got, um, systems and projects. So where there are, um, ones, ones and twos going into a business, whether it's a system implementation, project, accounting type and, um, which we've got team sell, all that. And then interim, our interim business, which is, which is growing. We've got another new interim recruiter starting tomorrow, mirrors that.

Speaker B: So on both. So you slice it by, obviously, geography is already done.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Now you've got job titles, families of job titles based on salary and rough range, contract and perm, um, split again at the next level. Again the next level. So it's like six teams essentially, plus then you got project, which is that contract in perm as well. Is that just.

Speaker A: That's predominantly just contract.

Speaker B: What about like finance transformation projects? Like, I know you, we talked about this off air, but like, I Used to recruit in the transformation space. That was all I did.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So project management, business analysis. And uh. And you did get finance transformation. PMs, um, finance transformation Bas. You wouldn't get. There's no like accountant. They might have been an ex accountant that went more into project work. Do you get a bit of that coming across your desk as well?

Speaker A: There's a little bit, um, you and I touched on it earlier. Um, to be continued on that one, my friend. There's uh, something that uh. There's something exciting coming down.

Speaker B: Coming down that would follow your projects team right now.

Speaker A: Yeah, it would follow the project. Project team right now. But, um, yeah, there's something coming down or coming out sort of later on in the year, October time. That's pretty exciting. And Forge was set up to challenge the status quo. This other thing that we're talking about, it's going to be a second business is absolutely going to be challenging the

Speaker B: status quo as well in a similar. Okay. In that space. Right. I like it. So. So that six division. No, it's mainly seven divisions. If you, if you class project interim as one and then how many do you have in each? What's the. What's the vision for how you set up each pod? What's the. How many people would be in each one and what roles have they all got?

Speaker A: So, great question. So, um, the way the, the way the. I see the infrastructure of the business developing and we've started to have that with some experience. Well, everybody's experienced, but more experienced people have got in is you will have, um, a senior talent partner within the business. Now we've got one of those in Mike Diaz. Mike looks after two brands within. Within the business already. You'll have somebody that um, runs all of interim down from a senior talent partner, uh, perspective as well. Um, and then we from. And Leadership Finance is slightly different. So we'll have somebody that then runs Leadership Finance as well. But underneath those, there is absolutely no reason why to have six to seven people in each of these teams.

Speaker B: Really?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Now, have you got to that number six to seven? Is there. Is there some maths behind that or just.

Speaker A: Yeah, there is math behind it. I think if I look at the volume based on our current head count, the volume of work that we've got. We don't work with everybody. We're honest when we can help, honest when we can't, and honest when we won't. And the three things are totally, totally different. We do sometimes turn business away and I just think there is such an Opportunity that uh, at the minute for us, 80% of what we do is in private equity about businesses. Right. 10% in PLC, 10% in the SME space. A lot of what we do is like a 20 mile radius Manchester city center. So you then start to look at, you go further north to sort of Preston Blackburn way. You start to go further, further south into Chester, uh, and so on. What about across the Liverpool and even across to Liverpool? Um, there's just such an opportunity to take so much market share because in my opinion nobody is, is doing that particularly well. Like your big corporate businesses used to have your hub and spoke mentality. So they'd have an HQ in a Manchester and they have a little satellite office in each of these locations. They've all retracted. So. And it's smaller businesses that have started to take the market, take the market share. So. So for me and there's some really, really good businesses that are doing that mate. It's not just us. Um, there is just, there's, there's, there's too much of an opportunity. So that number for me, if I think back to the Robert half days and how many we had in different areas of the business, it's, it's closely linked to that but it's just doing it in a very different way.

Speaker B: And what do you have? Is everyone A360 in your team or

Speaker A: do you have everyone? Everyone is a 360 mate. And I've been pretty vocal about it. Delivery has its, delivery has its space. Not in our business. Uh, you've got to be able to feed yourself. That doesn't mean you don't get given stuff to work and we don't pass because we have job flip mentality in our business is built on energy, enthusiasm, collaboration. So we collaborate a lot. Uh, but it's, it's 360 recruiters. It's get out there, win business, feed yourself. Um is our approach because when things do get tough, really really tough in an economy, what are the first things to go? I've seen it, we tried to do it fjr. Ah. What happens see delivery consultants that go

Speaker B: m. What about the old argument um though that you, you, you're never doing enough BD when you, when you're doing both. Because I even and I was a very good 360 recruiter. 700 gram Bella. But I would say that was always the argument from if I, if you were my boss and I think my boss was quite like you. I did six, she wanted seven, shorted eight. But it was always that you're not meeting enough people, you're not doing enough bd. It's like I'm not physically pos. It's impossible to do more the way I'm running because I'm always, I'm filling jobs. So I can't, I can't do both. Like, do you have an argument or do you. Is that just something you got to accept? Like what's your mindset around that?

Speaker A: Uh, everybody's a customer to me. So it's not, it's not just business development on its own. Like you, if you, if we think about the long game mentality, right, somebody in the traditional commercial team could be speaking to a finance manager, right? Two years time, that person could be an fd, right? So you're playing, you're playing the long game with, with everything, with everything that we do. Um, I've seen it over the last 10, 14 years, mate, where people are billing an exceptional amount of money in 360 recruitment, 360 recruitment roles. Um, I think those people are just relentless and everything they do, relentless planning, relentless execution, relentless consistency. Um, why can't we be like that as well? Like that's, that's, that's our mention and how I. You can't sit with a client and be totally truthful. And when you're, when you're talking about credibility and, and it's going to be me that works the role and I'm the relationship, I'm the partner and then I go back to the office and I just give it to somebody in the team to work the role. Too many times I see that fall over because there is. The client has got an expectation that it's going to be you delivering, it's going to be you doing it all. In reality, if you're just passing it to a delivery team, isn't it, isn't

Speaker B: it like the exact search mindset though, that someone does the fast paced high level bit or the slow paced high level, but they build the lists, then you still do the, the ultimate shortlisting process and make sure that no one gets to a client before you're involved. But having someone that is mapping the market all the time for you, having those conversations all the time and giving you that shortlist. I mean, I never had it, so I can't say I ever did it that way. But I see more and more clients saying that's working for them. Is that something you've thought about?

Speaker A: I think that. And that's exact search and we are not an exact search business. Um, Will we ever be? Probably not. Um, we are, you know, we're a sales business. We're out there, we're out there adding value. Um, I just never say never but I just can't see us pivoting that space or creating a revenue stream in that space. I see why it works and you look at some of the fantastic exec search businesses do what they do. M but there's just too much of an opportunity for us right now in this space.

Speaker B: Yeah. Another argument to that is it's very hard to get a whole team of people that are capable of both sides. It's a much easier job to find someone who can do one or the other. How do you, how do you look at that in terms of ratios around the amount of people you might need to make someone stick as a top quality 360 person, etc because you will have come through those factory type businesses. You know, what's your mindset around that?

Speaker A: Uh, you're right about the factory type business. It's normally three and one.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like for every three hire one M1 normally sticks. But certainly that was a ratio when I was at half. But uh, but I agree with that. But I think that's where somebody comes into my business and isn't successful. That is a direct reflection on me. Right. So everybody's given the tech stack.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Everybody's, everybody is um, given the training. Um, but if, if somebody does not work out that is the direct reflection of me. So I've got to make sure that anybody coming in has been given all of the bloody, bloody tools, cradle, cradle to grave type stuff, um, to be a success. Now clearly I can't, can't help them with the work ethic but all of that stuff, we should have been able to uncover it and cover at interview. Like I still do all first age interviews um, because I really, what we've created from a cultural point of view I think is pretty cool. It's pretty unique. Um, so I'm still that person that's vetting at first stage to make sure that they're right for us.

Speaker B: What, what are you looking for and how would you describe the culture?

Speaker A: Energy, enthusiasm, collaboration, mate. It is high energy. Um, it's infectious when you work, when you walk into our office, um, everybody knows what the goal is clear from day one. Anybody coming in, my intention is I'm out by 2033. You've all got a part to play, you're all going to get rewarded. It's not the max show. What does that reward look like right Now, I don't know, we're figuring it out. Um, and, um, people are bought into that. Like, people are bought into to that one. But anybody that we bring on board desperately wants to add value. They don't want to be one of these transactional recruiters anymore.

Speaker B: I mean, you're going after that experienced hire. Is that your plan or what?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's. I think if everybody we've brought in has been. It's been experienced. I think chap starting tomorrow, he's, uh, 10 years. 10 years in, lady. We've got start in, in a couple of weeks. She's sort of 20 years. Um, and then somebody else in August. They're sort of five, six years. And I think about everybody else we brought in so far, it's like minimum five years. Finance recruitment, like in the north.

Speaker B: I like it. But you're becoming the destination employer, I think, where people are looking and going up. You know, if I'm fighting against them, I'm going to come up against them at some point. Maybe I should work with them, maybe I should join them. Is that the way you want to look at it?

Speaker A: I hope so. I hope so. Uh, I mean, we work with XRx, but quite a lot of our hiring has been done. Has been done direct to Mate M. We spoke about it and I take the piss, but I'm quite vocal on LinkedIn.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So people, people see it, they're inquisitive. We have a meeting and we just. And we just.

Speaker B: Let's go into that. I mean, I'm not taking any credit for your LinkedIn account. If anyone thinks I didn't train, I didn't train you. I think you've probably. I think I've influenced you, I'd hope, because I think we've talked about it in the past, but you've. You've gone at it your own way and I've always, I've always really respected what you've said and, you know, I don't always agree with everything you say, but I think the way you say it is, it's you. And I love that about people who've got the confidence and the balls to go out and be themselves. What impact has it honestly had? Like, let's look at the client base and candidate base first and then we'll look at the internal team. Like, what. How has that translated into performance or improving the performance of you and the team?

Speaker A: I think if I look at the internal. If I look at the internal team first, what, the 16, seven of them will be indirect, right? So I'll, I'll take, take that. I've approached them, some have approached me.

Speaker B: But even when you approach them, they know you are right. There's a real awareness of, oh, it's Max, not just another recruitment guy.

Speaker A: Exactly. So, so, so there's been that. So you can look at that straight away, um, and go, it's worked. Um, the client side of things. I've not looked at it so far this year. Last year, 95 grand of fees were from clients contacting me directly because of some of the stuff I say on LinkedIn, because I call out the shady. That's, that's, that goes on within the industry. So that's why the original approach has happened. It's then a face to face, it's then me added value. It's their me showing my credibility.

Speaker B: Not making the placement off the back of that, but it's what opens it up.

Speaker A: Exactly. Um, and then just a sheer volume of candidates that I get approached by day in, day out. I couldn't even put a number on it. No, I couldn't put a monetary figure on it.

Speaker B: And how often do you reach out to someone and go, I have seen you or I've heard of you. Is that a common theme?

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, yeah, it happens a lot. Um, and look at it, because I post five, six times a week and, and I, and I look at it, my sort of audience, if you like candidates, clients, recruiters. So that's the way my, my content is written. And you're right, a lot of this has probably been four, five years because I started it when I was at FJR and that, I think that's when you and I first started talking, mate. And you did, you shaped, shaped a lot of it early on, um, because you were the only bloke that was doing it and it was like, well, hang on a minute. Like this, there's definitely, there's definitely something here. And it's just been a, uh, try it, see if it works. And you're right, not everybody likes it. Some people are turned off by it. That's cool. They're not the people I want to work with.

Speaker B: No. And that's the confidence. That's what I love. Like one of my clients in Australia, Simon Hare, you, you remind me of him a lot. And he runs about a 45 person business across a couple of brands. And he's like, he's a Man United fan. Unfortunately, I don't know if you might be as well, but he talked about, he talked about like Ferguson and like the Man United, Way in, like. And then even Guardiola and, like, the best managers have a way of playing. Right. It can be different, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Arteta, uh, to Pet, to Klopp, to the best have an identity. And he said, that's exactly the same in my business. I want. I've got an identity, I've got a way. I want to play. And if people in our team aren't prepared to be vocal and share and want to add value and get in front of customers, they're not going to work for me. I don't care. They could build a million, but if they do it in a completely different way to the way we play, I'm not having it, I'm not interested. And this, in my opinion, there's too many people in our industry that would take a biller who's completely different to them. Just as long as they put money on the board.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I don't get that feeling off you. I feel like you. You've got. You've designed the way that Forge are going to operate and you've then embodied that yourself.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And look, and everybody's contributed to it along the way, right? Everybody. Everybody in my business has a voice, right. And, um, they want to try something. I'll never turn somebody down or I'll never not put my hand in my pocket for trying something if we don't think it can work. It's not necessarily all the time about the roi. Sometimes it's the roe. Like, where's the return on energy? Um, shout out to Rich Evans, who gave me that. I think, you know Rich as well at the roe. But, um, that's. That's the way. That's the way I sort of. Sort of look at things as well. We've been. We've been really selective. Everybody's. Everybody's got a voice, everybody's got an opinion. Um, everybody can chip in. Doesn't mean we're going to use it all the time. But, like, how do you. How do you grow, scale and exit a business in 10 years that I've been vocal about, um, you bring people from different backgrounds, different walks of life, different levels of creativity. You put it all in a melting pot with the framework and structure that I put in for day one. And you go at it together. But I think it's. It's that togetherness and collaborativeness that. That we're all doing it and they're giving people a voice. But, mate, people say all the time, do you ask people in the business to post on LinkedIn it's like, no, but they see me doing it day in, day out. So they start doing it and they put their own voice on it. Shock. What starts happening, Clients start contacting. It's like you then drop somebody a message and like, oh, forge is everywhere. It's like it's doesn't take a genius.

Speaker B: Perception beats reality. And I love the fact that you've gone geographical with it. You've gone super niche industry and, well, job vertical and geography. Because you can really put your arms around that. Like you, you can look on LinkedIn and go, that guy's in Birmingham. Not interested. That guy is in working in Manchester. Uh, interested or whatever. Like you can see it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I'm like the same. If you're a recruitment founder, I'll. I'm interested. If you're, if you run a property business, I'm not bothered. Like, it makes my life a lot easier. Like, there's a million recruiters that could impact your customers, but there's not a million that say they do finance and accounting in that level in your way. In the Northwest, based in the Northwest, they can come and see you in an hour. Like, that's just not. They're getting smaller and smaller and smaller every year. Those people who can say. And I love that in terms of your, um, I've got a few things I want to cover. Right. So how are you set up? Is it five days in the office? How do you structure that stuff?

Speaker A: And so I'm at home today, right. That's not. Because we're in this. So, uh, we are three days a week in the office. Tuesday, um, Thursday, Friday in the office, um, Monday, Wednesday from home. Monday and Wednesday is when people are doing a lot of face to face stuff. Like that's when they're doing a large, a large part of, um, their business development, right. Candidates and clients that they're out, they're out there meeting people and then the Tuesday, Thursday, Friday is we're all in together. It's that noise, it's our energy, it's that training. Whatever, whatever anybody needs.

Speaker B: Why'd you pick them days? Any, any method behind that madness or.

Speaker A: Uh. Yeah. So what I, what I have found in the space I'm in Mondays and Wednesdays, a lot of, uh, finance people are at home at this moment in time. Might not always be like that. Ah. So. And it helps me kickstart my week. If I, if I've been out on the road all day on a Monday and I've seen five or six people, it just it just helps me get into that, into, get into that rhythm of that 8:12 that we ought to do. Um, and the Tuesday and Thursday piece is when we have seen a lot of businesses, particularly in town, um, have been in town. So if we do have extra meetings, I know that slightly contradicts myself, but if we do have extra meetings, we can do it then. But we've got like core time when we're all together on that, that Tuesday and Thursday on the phone in the room. That noise, that energy. Friday many month end. Every single, Every single Friday is that many, many month end feel. Celebrating the success of the week that we've, that we've all had together. Talking, talking through the challenges. And um, we sit down every Friday as a team and we do it

Speaker B: also that Friday morning buzz. You can't bottle it. You can't sell that. Like, if you could bottle that and sell it on a Monday, like you'd make millions. Like, there's something about a Friday morning in the recruitment office that you can't. I used to love it, like the atmosphere was phenomenal and I enjoyed being in to that. Like. Yeah, uh, I could probably. Being at home on a Monday is not a bad thing. I take being in there on the Friday, so I get it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And there's an early finish on a Friday. Right. So we all finish it 3 o' clock on a Friday. So, so there's that. But it's. Yeah, it's a lot of it, mate. Like, is that the. I suppose two longer days like in that, that sort of Tuesday, Tuesday, Thursday. It's. You learn through osmosis. You can talk through different scenarios when, when you, when you're together, when you're in person, you can buddy up on certain things. For me right now, it works. Doesn't mean it'll be like that forever. Um, um. And that's the whole point about being agile and flexing with what sort of customers need. We just, we just take a view on things as and when.

Speaker B: Yeah. What. Um, you keep talking about recruitment being broken and you've worked in businesses where it was. You think it was broken based on the fact and you were driving a broken model. So to recap on that, the biggest difference in your business is it's almost like stepping back a bit and being like human led. It's getting in front of people, it's face to face, it's adding value, it's going beyond the transaction. It's essentially what you're saying.

Speaker A: It's exactly what it is.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's about being a trusted advisor. I keep saying. I think the industry split into two. Right. What you're saying is your Robert halves, they're all becoming, they become a commodity because they're just selling speed and CVs and it's CVs out, interviews booked, it's, it's just numbers, it's data. But yeah, you can swap faces out and it doesn't really matter. What you're saying is we're a group of 16 people that love each other, that care about each other, are on a journey together with the same, ideally the same faces will be here in eight, nine years if all goes well.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And with the same face that's going to meet the client, work the role. Like we're, we're in this for the long term as a group. Is that, um.

Speaker A: Yeah, mate, you've just. Perfect. That's exactly.

Speaker B: You can imagine that open. Sell that out if you want.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, mate. It's internally and externally it's relationship driven.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Everything.

Speaker B: That's what. But our industry's always said that. But it's. Too many aren't doing it.

Speaker A: Uh, 75, I don't believe are doing it anymore. Like they're just, they're just out there chasing the fee.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Too many cowboys, cowgirls in the industry chasing a quick fee and not thinking about the negative impact they can have on a candidate experience in that you could place them in a tip. Right. That's somebody's career that you're potentially derailing and they're not thinking about the impact of somebody paying a fee. Let's say it's a small to medium startup business who's growing and you're taking a 10, 11, 12 grand fee. Knowing that person's not quite right and knowing that person that's going to leave in three to six. There's just too much of that going on in my opinion.

Speaker B: So there's two things. AI is obviously a huge topic, right. And I want to talk about it in two ways. So the industry first and then recruitment. So you're. I've got a friend who works in finance. I don't know his exact job, but he's, he's pretty senior corporate, works uh, for a big manufacturing business and he, he runs, he runs their finance function. When I saw him last, he's pretty worried like he's, like he thinks the firm's finance function shrinking. AI is going to be, it's not like it'll be a completely il ed but the, the amount m of jobs will shrink. He believes in his business. Um, and again uh, if you, if you listen to the AI noise finance is one of the first that will go legal, will go like in the next five, 10 years there's going to be a, you know, AI machines will be running these parts for feet. What, what are your thoughts on that and what are you seeing data wise on the ground to perhaps combat that idea?

Speaker A: Finance won't go just like recruitment won't go. Uh, the. Because you're always going to need that level of human intervention. I think what you will see is um, the lower level roles that uh, were always typically sort of entry level that'll be automated out. Of course it will. However what that will do is get

Speaker B: any trainees into being financed then.

Speaker A: Well that I think what you'll find instead is you'll have people that uh, go straight to qualification route. Um, so people are coming in at a slightly different level. Um, but there'll be new roles for them to look at. There'll be new skill sets like finance. Finance is the engine room in a business. Right. Finance historically was technical reporting looking backwards. Now finance is commercial. It's, it's driving things forward, getting businesses exit ready. Right. I talk about it a lot on LinkedIn. Looking at profitability, looking at margin, looking at customer. All of that will still be done by a person. You will just find that people's roles and responsibilities start to change and people are coming in at a higher level. Um, and the lower level stuff absolutely will be taken over by AI. AI will be used as a tool to make finance more efficient. It will not replace.

Speaker B: How confident are you, uh, that will be the Same situation in 10 years though?

Speaker A: I'm pretty confident. I am pretty confident because businesses are still going to be going through the same, the same challenges, the same challenges that business had 10 years ago still be, still be the same in 10 years time. Especially you know, again sorry to repeat myself but businesses that are gearing up for transaction, gearing up for sale. If something's getting pumped through a computer genuinely are you hand on heart gonna say I trust that verbatim to go through a due diligence process, to go through a sales process, I'd be very, very nervous. Even, even if it's in, it's in 10 years time I would still want people, humans, um, taking me through that process. Um, like I say, I think there'll be elements of lower uh, level roles automated out. AI will be used for making businesses uh, more efficient, making finance functions more efficient. It might be that certain, certain uh, roles of, and levels of finance go. But you'll find a new age of finance. Five years ago, there was no such thing as a finance business partner. There just wasn't. There were people already doing it, but there wasn't the job title. You'll just find things like that now. But from an AI perspective.

Speaker B: Yeah. And then when it comes to recruitment, I imagine your answer is quite similar. Right. How do you think it's going to impact Forge as a business?

Speaker A: Uh, we were on Atlas as a, as a CRM. I think Jordan is phenomenal. Like, I really, really do. Um, takes away, takes away the administration. Um, it's made us far more efficient. Gone are the days of the manual hour, hour and a half where you have to plan. Like, if I think back to year one, Jesus Christ, every single night I was sat there like, scribbling out who I was going to be calling the next day, who I was going to be trying to target. AI does that for you. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Like, you know, Atlas, uh, you know, Jordan, that, uh, platform is just going to go and go and go. And yes, there are others. Um, I just think it just makes people more efficient because it going back to why I set this business up. Human interaction, like true talent, partnership, relationships. AI can't give any of that, mate. What it can do, though, is get rid of the knobby little recruiters that are just out there spamming cbs. It can absolutely get rid of that. And I'm all for those people.

Speaker B: I'm with you, mate. I, I genuinely think, I genuinely think, like, AI will completely destroy the kind of generalist. Like if someone says to, to a client, look, I ain't got a clue the person is you need. But I'll go and run a process and I'll find it. I think you're gonna, I think that's gonna go. Yeah, I think, I think being able to say, look, this is all we do. I've probably got five names in my head already of who you want, but I'm gonna go do a proper process and speak to my network because they know me and they're going to respond to me and I've got trust. That's going to be what people really, really, really buy into. And, uh, I think riches have always been in the niches, but that's going to be even more. And then you guys are going to have your ability to run AI within what you're doing, uh, in a very specific. To solve one specific problem of recruitment. Think about an organization. You've got uh, hr, Finance, technology, all them different departments. Like they're, they're gonna have a generic AI stack, there's no doubt about it. And it's going to get better with in house teams. But to then drill into like the specifics of people in finance that could do that, one thing that's going to help them with a transaction, they're gonna, well, uh, they're gonna need a new proper, dedicated bit of kit for that. And then the time and then there's no reason why as well that those people that the AI then reaches out to even recognizes them and has any trust in them. So then he who gets the reply will win. I think that's what's gonna happen. And you're building a business that's trusted enough to get the reply like. And that's what I think. Um, I'm, well I'm, I genuinely think it's the most exciting time ever to run a recruitment company company by, by a mile. And the time of spending logging notes and that we all used to waste our time doing. Like, it's all gone like.

Speaker A: Exactly. Oh, it's completely gone, mate.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Which makes people, makes people more efficient, means we can add more value because we've got more time.

Speaker B: Yeah, but it can, I am worried people are gonna get lazier and lazy and lazier though and like an outreach will sound exactly the same and every CV will look the same and because people forget that their competition are using the exact same softwares and clause and chat GPTs and like you've, yeah, you've gotta, you've gotta really train it and really work with it to, to remain essentially you, which is important and you

Speaker A: can, you could, that you can spot the uh, generic a mile off. Like how many, how many inbox messengers did you get a day? Like on LinkedIn, right, Sean.

Speaker B: You know what, I nearly deleted a guy today, right? And he put Sean, hashtag Quish. Uh, sorry, hyphen, quick intro. And I literally nearly blocked it like that. Uh, it was a referral of a recruitment owner who I've worked with who wanted to have a chat about my services this week. I'm in a coffee shop, well, McDonald's coffee shop, 6:45 this morning I get this email, I'm about to click delete and I click. For some reason I thought, looked at it, thought that could be a recruitment company looked in. It was, it was, it was a inbound. That's the first time in, I'd say six months where I've not just gone delete Delete, delete. And it's not been complete bollocks.

Speaker A: Yeah. And. But that's going to get like that, that aside, like the rest of them that you get, it's going to get worse and worse and worse, of course.

Speaker B: And it leaves opportunity for good businesses

Speaker A: to stand out 100%.

Speaker B: So what? I have got one question that you mentioned something at the start and it plays a lot in my head as a father. You said like, I reckon I can run for 10 years to have the rest of the time. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I get it and I'm not here to say your, your idea or plan is wrong. I, I've kind of gone the opposite way of you and thought having seen a girl, uh, my stepdaughter's 13, so I've seen her go from 8 to 13. She doesn't want to know me at 13. Like she wanted to know me at 8. Knowing, like complete opposite kid. And I've been told that the first 10 years when you are the life of. And, and like my daughter is obsessed with me right now walking the house and his daddy and that goes after 10. So I'm like, have you thought about that? And does that how you, how are you running your life outside of work with this aggression and clearly incredible business ambition so that you don't miss out on the time that you'll never get back. You might have a lot of money at the end of it. You've missed that time with them in the first 10 years.

Speaker A: Mate, I, I super disciplined, like super strict. So. And um, plus my wife is like, Danielle is phenomenal, mate. Like I said at the start, she's absolutely incredible. And um, she will hold me to account, right. Which, which I love and she always, she always has done. Um, I protect core family time. Like, uh, break it down. So mate, like people think I'm a weirdo. I'm in the gym at 4:30 in the morning, right? 4:30, six days a week. So I go in, I get an hour, um, I come back, have my coffee. Kids are normally up. I don't have an hour with my kids before I do anything from a work perspective. Right. Kids then go off to nursery. I'm off to, I'm off to the office, like all that type of stuff throughout the day. I'm then pedaling as hard as I possibly can. I will leave the office when I'm in the office at 5 o' clock to get home and see my kids for two hours. I've done bar three every single bath time for my kids. Since both of them were born. Right. That is a non negotiable and that, that will not change. Weekends, if I'm going to do any work, it's when the kids are asleep.

Speaker B: Yeah, right.

Speaker A: It's either first thing or it's the last thing. And then when I'm on holiday, I'm with my family, you need me, you contact me first thing in the morning or last thing at night and that's, it's just, it's just non negotiable. Um, and um, that structure that I put in place and working with a guy called Will Foden, um, who's phenomenal.

Speaker B: Is he the health coach guy you mentioned?

Speaker A: Yeah, he's. Mate, it's. So Will's business is um, is, is all about pressure, right? All about pressure. And business, business owners, founders, leaders, all that type of stuff are under a ton of pressure 247 at home and, and in business and externally. Will has helped me put in a load of structure in place so I can be the best version of me 24 7. I can be the elite. Elite at home, elite at work. Um, what time are you going to

Speaker B: bed to be up at half between the gym at R4.

Speaker A: I've got about 10.

Speaker B: That's a lot. You got to be asleep quick though to feel like you're not deprived there.

Speaker A: I imagine so. Will, mate, Will's got me. Look, I never thought I'd wear a whoop for one, mate. Yeah, never thought I'd wear a whoop for one. It's diet, it's nutrition, it's training, it's understanding your body. So all of that means I can be the best version, like the best version of myself. And uh, I make sure that the times I just mentioned with, with Daniel and the kids, like it's non negotiable.

Speaker B: Uh, you've got what you've said there, which is again very similar to me. My diary is populated with my life first and work second for me, like all, all my weeks in there before any work starts. And I don't go to the gym at R4 but I'm in there at six every day and it's a similar mindset. Um, what you're saying is the same level of planning and intensity that you put into work, you also give to the household and that's where you're not prepared to give. If you did feel it was slipping, would you, would that come as a priority over work?

Speaker A: Yeah, it would, yeah, yeah, it would. Um, look, I'm building a team and I'm Building infrastructure around me that allows me. Would allow me to do that as well. Yeah, I just. I won't negotiate on, um. On, um, family time. It's blocked out in my diary. Do not contact me between this time, like you need me. It's when the kids are in bed and it's just little things like that.

Speaker B: And how far are you from the office?

Speaker A: 35 minutes. Right, 35 minutes, as I say. So I literally get back 5, 35, 35, whatever it is, subject to traffic and I've got two hours of the kids before. Before bath and bedtime. Uh, and it's like. That's the best part of the day.

Speaker B: Yeah, I like it, mate. Look, I'd say similar to me and, you know, you've obviously methodically planned each area of your life. You know, I've got like, my health and. I've got my health and fitness. I've got my. My family and relationships. I've got my wealth and investments. I've got, um. What else have I. I got trying to think if there's anything else that I. They. They're probably the three areas that I'm really like. I've got very, very specific plans in each or each area. And obviously work. Work as well. Right. So that you got. You got. Yeah, I'd say outside finance and investments and like family money and stuff like that. I've got work, I've got health and I've got, um, the rest of it. It's all so methodically planned and a lot of people give it everything. Especially with a plan like you, where they're going to scale and exit. They put everything into that and the rest starts to fall around them and they're drinking and the partying and they're not spending time with their kids and. And I just. I don't know. I don't see there's any. There's no point in having the sale in 10 years if there's no family left to enjoy it with.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: And you just.

Speaker A: Look, you alluded to it before. You just need to know what lever to pull and when. And I think before I was working with Will, I had a lot of this structure, but I didn't know what. I didn't know what. Leave it a pool, like, because you don't know what you don't know. So it's like just having. Having little bits like that. Ah, that knowing what you need to do and when for certain things so that nothing does slip and look at some point something will and you just reign it and you just Change, you just, you just do something slightly different. You don't got the gym at 4:30, you go when you're in town, midday, whatever it is. But everything that I'm doing for my family is for the people that work at Forge. So I need to ensure that everybody's getting the best version of me internally and externally. 24 7.

Speaker B: Do you drink anymore?

Speaker A: Yeah. May I still drink? Yeah, yeah, I still drink.

Speaker B: Um, what does your woop say when you have a drink?

Speaker A: Uh, well, I've just come back from three days in Lisbon, so on Friday it said I was dead. Um, but um, again it's, it's all right. It's not. But it's not, it's not smashing the beers like I was doing sort of ten years ago. It's. I'll have a couple of gin and tonics with Danielle. Like that's, that's the thing I want to do.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I still do client stuff, but I'm just as in client entertainment and all that type of stuff, selective with it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and again a lot of the planning and structure, if I am doing something, Will and I are then planning the sort of two weeks leading up to it, what I need to do to ensure that the day after, uh, having a couple, you're not falling off the wagon. So everything is, is planned and structured. I mean, I'm still bloody enjoy myself.

Speaker B: Yeah, sounds like you. Sounds like you've got the balance right for you and it's a good place to be.

Speaker A: Exactly. And that's it. I think balance means different things to different people. Like this works for me. And there'll be different iterations and evolutions of it over, over the next seven, eight years. Of course they will.

Speaker B: That's my final question then is what does the 10 year business, the 33 exit orbital business, what, what are you working towards? What are the high level metrics or numbers? You know, what's it, what's it got to be for you to think you'll get the exit that you want?

Speaker A: I think I won't, I won't put numbers to it, mate. Because that again, that could change over time. But I wanna, I wanna have a recruitment business. Um, that is 70, 75 heads and we are the most dominant player that the Northwest has ever seen. Um, I've alluded to second, business is going to be going live in October. That's going to have a big, big part to play. 2028, I want to go to the US as in I want to set up the finance and accounting recruitment Business in the us.

Speaker B: So is that you going out there or.

Speaker A: No, I know some brilliant people in the US that operate in this world. I put my trust in them to do it. You put all of that together and when the time's right, pull the pin, I'm off.

Speaker B: What do you spend your time doing then?

Speaker A: Spend, uh, the time with my family. I spend my time helping other recruitment business owners go on a similar journey, if that, if that's what they want to do. And I just want to invest, mate. Invest. Um, that's ultimately what I want to do.

Speaker B: How old are you now?

Speaker A: 36.

Speaker B: Yes. You're a bit younger than me, so you got. I mean, be a pretty amazing place to be in your early 40s, wouldn't it?

Speaker A: Fingers crossed, mate. That is, uh, absolutely the plan.

Speaker B: I think you'll do it. I think you'll do it. My only concern is around genuinely what an exitable business looks like in eight years. Seven. Eight years. I just don't know it. I don't think anyone knows. I think the market will transform so much. I hope AI doesn't have as negative an impact on human workforce as some people predict. I don't think it will, personally, but then I'm sometimes thinking I might just seeing it through rose tinted glasses because of the kind of network I've got. But, yeah, um, I don't think anyone truly knows what we're walking into. I think the past is a very different place. But if any, if, if anyone's going to do it, I think you can. So I wish you all the best of luck, mate.

Speaker A: Cheers, buddy. Appreciate it.

Speaker B: If anyone, if anyone's listening today and just, I mean, I'm confident you'll say yes, but. And they reach out to you, LinkedIn, good place. You'll give them some time and listen.

Speaker A: Yeah, of course I will. Yeah. Mate, anybody wants to speak to me about anything on here, or any thoughts, opinions, all that good stuff, just drop

Speaker B: me a message and let's get you on again in a year or so's time and see where you are on that journey.

Speaker A: All right, Lock it in, mate. Lock it in.

Speaker B: Thanks again for listening to today's episode of the Rag podcast. If you haven't already, please do subscribe wherever you listen to this show. As the more subscribers we get, the more people will listen and the more recruitment orders we can help. As a recruitment founder, uh, you must know that things are changing. AI is everywhere, cold outreach is getting harder and job boards, well, they're not what they used to be. But personally, despite the negativity. I believe the future is the greatest opportunity of our lifetime in recruitment because for the first time ever, a founder, uh, with five recruiters with a clear niche and the right systems can build the kind of influence, reach and profitability that used to take 500 recruits, recruiters and a global office network. The agencies that are winning right now aren't necessarily the biggest, but they are the most visible, the most trusted, and the ones building inbound demand. At Hoxo, uh, we're working with clients who are running multiple six and seven figures in net profit, outperforming the negative noise and headlines. So to explain what these guys are doing, I've created a brand new free masterclass video for rag listeners. In this video, it's less than 10 minutes long. I'm going to show you what these businesses are doing differently from the rest. So the link's in the description, fill in the form, watch the video, and see exactly how this system that these clients are using could work for your agency. Good luck.