The U.K.’s Construction Debate: Is Inaction More Dangerous Than AI?

Mark Snell: If we can feed some of that knowledge and learning from people, um, who are leaving in industry back into these type of models as well, I think they're. Yeah, I mean, the sky's limits really, isn't it? Absolutely.

Host: Well, this is a global podcast and we have been speaking to leaders across the globe about the future state of construction. And we figured it's probably a good idea for us to bring those perspectives and bring the podcast to those regions. So, Brett, why don't you do us the pleasure of introducing our guest who's joining us today.

Brett: Absolutely, I'd be delighted to. Um, so we know the UK construction sector is under massive pressure at the moment. Uh, skills crisis, there's new regulation like the Building Safety act. And now, like you mentioned, AI is knocking at the door. But where there's pressure, there's obviously opportunity. And today's guest is at the intersection of it all. So, uh, welcome Mark Snell, Technical Director of Digital and MMC and Net Zero Carbon at Dalkia uk. Um, Mark, you're driving innovation at the intersection of, uh, DFMA and modern methods of construction, uh, helping to shape the way we build smarter, cleaner and faster. You're a huge advocate for digital transformation, lean processes and, um, using data to drive better outcomes. Um, also, you're a key voice in the industry. Uh, you're the chair of, uh, the Building Engineering Services Association Off Site Steering Group, um, primary author of the Bisa Technical Bulletin TB056, chair of the Bisa Net Zero Steering Group, uh, contributor and steering group member of Bizrea BG6, and then also a couple of recognitions here. So winner of the BSA Specialist Group Award for Excellence in 2023, judge for the 2025 BSA Industry Awards. Um, so a lot there, Mark, and welcome. So great to have you on the podcast.

Mark Snell: Thank you for having me and yeah, uh, pleasure to be here. Much better introduction I would have given myself, to be fair, I just would have said, Mark, and been done.

Host: That's why it' to come on a podcast. You actually get to take a moment to sit back from your resume and hear it reported back to you a little bit.

Brett: And even when we were scoping out accolades at the end of the day and just your experience shone through. Absolutely, Mark. But great, great to have you on board.

Host: Well, one of the things that we've been talking about when I talk about the Future State of Construction report, it is a global report. And one of the primary reasons for that is we were seeing these external factors really start to put pressure on the business of construction. And we recognize that this was not a geo specific condition. This more um, it's actually universal. What we're experiencing economic factors, the constant shifts and changes in the sociopolitical economic world, um, as well as the generations, the new generations that's coming into the workforce and that's impacting everyone across the globe. And I think the UK is not immune to that much like the rest of the world. They're also experiencing some of those, I'll say external factors as well as policy and some of the um, uh, not only the later gap but some requirements and new requirements that are coming in well intended, but creating an absolute business impact that the Building Safety Act. You talk about this quite a bit, Brett, um, and how it's not just another compliance task. This actually is going to have a substantial amount of impact on the business. And Mark, you're smack dab in the middle of all of this. So when you think of this current climate, how are some of these pressures playing out on the business and maybe how is this affecting the work that you do at Dalkia and at bsa?

Mark Snell: Big thing Building Safety Act. That's probably the biggest thing in the UK construction at the moment. Um, and I think the biggest thing is the uncertainty. So one thing construction doesn't like is uncertainty.

Host: Yeah, it's true.

Mark Snell: Cost, um, time costs money. So yeah, I think that's probably the biggest thing that we are all facing. And that uncertainty we're also seeing, um, and we're currently undertaking a large project uh, which is going through the Gateway 2 process. We're seeing a lot of uh, inconsistency between what the industry is saying, industry bodies and what the building safety regulator is saying as well.

Host: Interesting.

Mark Snell: And that's causing confusion and pain. So um, you know, I think from that point of view, the Building Safety act being the largest thing, if we could start getting a little bit more clarity, a little bit more consistency, um, in the messaging that we get, um, everyone would be a lot better off and a lot, a lot more stable in what they're doing. Definitely.

Host: And Brett, I think there's some definite correlations to that and I imagine that um, design, we saw some of that in the report. How the design is rapidly evolving. Um, how do you see that kind of playing into the work that's getting done?

Brett: Yeah, I think, I mean, setting the senior mark. So um, obviously Procore has got the future State of Construction report. And when we look at design, our point of view is that um, design is evolving rapidly. So we see construction as Built data finally making its way back into the design process. So breaking down these silos. So, like, what we design is now actually what we build. Um, and the designers of tomorrow will be builders themselves. We see this, um, moving more towards that Master Builder model where collaboration, data and constructability really come together. Um, are you seeing that kind of shift too? And how do you see that relationship, um, between designers and contractors evolving? Especially when it's driven by a world with what we see with AI as well?

Mark Snell: Yeah, yeah. All really good points. I think that, um, collaboration is probably the key. Um, and I've spoken at a couple of events and mentioned collaboration a lot. Um, I've been very fortunate to work with, um, a very good tier one contractor in my career who promoted early engagement and collaboration. Um, and that worked really well. And it de risks projects and you can feed. I mean, we're good at what we do as a contractor, designers are good at what they do as designers. The two need to meld together very well to create a great project, successful project that everyone walks away from feeling happy and making money from. Um, and you need that balance of the people to be involved. The traditional way of doing things in the UK is kind of like a design and dump. Um, we call it relatable and we have this design that gets thrown over and then the contractors have to resolve the issues. So you have to work through design team, you have problems with conflicts of interests and fee pressures and all this type of stuff as well. Um, but if you take a step back and you actually look at a different model, where you get the early engagement, you get that collaboration like you're talking about the master builder, um, if you can get that in early, and I've had experience on a couple of projects, both as a consultant and a contractor, the outcomes are much better. You get great outcomes, you get happier clients, you get a project that runs smoothly, it's on budget, it's on time and the quality is much better because you iron out all those issues when you're not under pressure, trying to deliver on site. And that's the thing that really grasps people, I think, and hurts companies is that time pressure. And when you've got issues on site, if you can get them done early, get that resolved early and up comes what you need to do.

Host: We've been saying this for so many years, it's actually really refreshing to have this come as your top of mind input in it, because honestly, I feel like this is what we've been trying to communicate to the industry for so Long is the ability for the designer and the contractor to work together um, is really crucial to that. And I know you had some interest in maybe looking at some of the off site impacts this has and I

Brett: think in your role around modern methods of construction ah, off site and assembly principles. Are they changing the way we approach design? Do you see that as a mainstream

Mark Snell: thing or pockets of is changing the way we approach design but not probably in the um, in the way you would have wanted it to or would have expected to. It's not, it's not taken off as much as it should do. I think off site suits um, some jobs, not all jobs. It's important not to just um, try and shoehorn it in to a project. It's got to be right fit and have the right benefits for the project. Um, I've definitely seen in the past when we have uh, engaged as uh, I was a Tier 1 contractor but engaging with off site concrete products and obviously off site MEP products. When we had that input into design early it changed the ethos of how the design developed. It brought certainty into the cost and into the program and into the design itself. And um, it's like I was saying around, you know designers are good at some things and contractors are good at some things and all of the practical aspects, contractors much more um, better suited to feed into that and all of that de risks projects help massively and

Brett: we haven't always been very good at like establishing like what's the, what makes that good or what's the output of that and defining like was that successful? We kind of feel it's successful but the metrics haven't always been clear on actually proving that the return on investment.

Mark Snell: Yeah. And I think PMV pre manufactured value is kind of one of the metrics the industry has used but it's not a very good metric. It just looks at the monetary value and the percentages whereas you need to be looking at the benefits and there might be some softer ones like social benefits, might be some carbon reductions in terms of transportation site or people being on site or reducing the amount of on site accommodation you have to do or on site welfare because you can take a lot of the work off site and uh, improve the quality as well. From that point of view, all of those things we don't capture the data very well.

Host: Mhm.

Mark Snell: And one thing we're trying to look at with the offsite group at BISA is how do we do that? And we're trying to do a bit of that with Dalkia. We're trying to collect data from the projects, um, number of man hours, number of operatives on site and we're trying to compare that against what it would have been traditionally so we can actually show the tangible benefits.

Host: You have benchmarks that you're looking at in order to say, are we actually progressing in the right direction?

Mark Snell: Yeah, yeah. And it's a hard thing to do because, uh, to do it correctly you really need to build a project twice. Right?

Host: Exactly.

Mark Snell: Once traditionally once off site and then you compare all the data, but you can't do that. So you've got kind of do the programming element of it. A duplication of that to try and uh.

Brett: Yeah, that's the whole difference with construction is it's not manufacturing. It is different each time. Um, so it's not like, yes, we can take principles of manufacturing to incorporate it, but it's not the same. The site conditions are different, the building's always going to be different.

Mark Snell: Uh, yeah, yeah, 100%.

Host: When we think about that future state of like future proofing the design and the design process, could you. You talked, I think you said it right up front, which was the relations between the designer and the contractor. Do you have any stories you could share or tell us about what that looks like in practice, what that actually looks like when it's implemented in the field?

Mark Snell: Yeah, uh, we can do. I think that it's important to actually think about the way we procure stuff in the UK as well. So the procurement methodologies. There's different methodologies obviously I talked about like design and build or we call it design and dump. But uh, you also have ah, earlier engagement. Um, if you look at the REBA stage of design, uh, there's a couple of different ways that you can apply early engagement. So there's a PCSA which is commonly used in the uk. So that's a pre contract services agreement where you get the contractor involved early and they feed into the design. And then there's a contractor LED design that's not so much used. But I have seen it used before. Um, I've done a large hospital project which was a design, uh, it's a build for life project. Sorry.

Brett: Ah.

Mark Snell: And that had the consultants, the contractors and subcontractors all involved. And when you have that and you have the data coming from the right people and the information and the knowledge and the skills, it really enhances the project, really makes the project successful. It de risks the project massively. Uh, and your outcomes become much better.

Host: That leads on to really future decision making.

Brett: Yeah. Mark, you mentioned a couple things around data and I do want to move shift focus to how we use that data and make better decisions. And uh, procore's point of view is that data is essentially your silent partner and integrated data models will provide new critical information on job sites and just really help you make those better decisions. So what's your take on where we are with data today and what needs to change in order to move it from noise to insight?

Mark Snell: Yeah, I presented recently to a couple of members of the board and senior people in our business and you know, data is king. Having data enables you to make informed decisions. It gives you insights that you wouldn't otherwise have had. And lots of companies do collect data and uh, unfortunately they don't either process it well, they don't analyze it well and it becomes like digital dust. It kind of sits there, it isn't used. And that opportunity is just wasted really. Um, we're starting to um, see a lot more data coming back into projects from the back end. So we're looking at um, bringing as installed information back into the front end of projects. I think that has a lot of benefit, looking at how projects are operating once they're handed over and then comparing that against new designs and new projects coming on. M is really key to optimising.

Brett: Yeah.

Mark Snell: Especially for energy reduction and carbon measures as well.

Brett: And this just goes back to that point made earlier of like sort of as built. Data is making its way back into design and it's going to shape the future of design because we've got all of that data so we can kind of minimize those clashes and the coordination issues that we currently have.

Mark Snell: Yeah. And if you know what works well, and actually probably more importantly what doesn't work well, you learn your lessons, learn

Brett: um, something we battle with sharing and learning those lessons is a huge challenge.

Mark Snell: Yeah. And I think the data, uh, feeding into lessons learned, models and AI, helping that and informing that uh, will be a really powerful tool. And the technology is there now, correct? Yeah.

Host: No. I've had the pleasure of coming to the UK um, for about 15 years now. And I remember when I originally started coming here, the UK BIM crew was just getting pulled together. To me it was like the coolest group of nerds I've ever had the chance to socialize with. And there were so many conversations around this desire to standardize that BIM was going to truly deliver the revolution to the construction industry that we've been waiting for. And I felt like a, ah, unpopular opinion sometimes in that group saying yes, but but how does that get received by the contractor? How does the contractor going to deliver that to the field? And we've seen the UK has taken the lead on so much of that standardization from BIM level 2 to PAS 1190, uh, 2, ISO 19650. I actually remember interviewing Paul when the 19650 was launched and getting his take on that. But the question I'm thinking of, here we are almost a decade later and we're now looking at AI and that data truly informing the design. Do we think we're getting from those standards the value that we hoped to get from them or is there something that's evolving right in the midst of us having already set those standards?

Mark Snell: Uh, I think to some degree we see projects, um, there's good and bad, I think and there's good adoption of the standards and there's not so good adoption standards. So um, I think in terms of things like clarity, uh, mentioned earlier, having a good eir, having a good bep, informing the contractor of what needs to be done, but also when you deliver that package to a contractor as a designer, ensuring that your deliverables are complete, which is something that we find doesn't happen so often, um, is really important and um, it's all data, it's all information and it's all really, really important for the client at the handover point, whether they're going to use that in fm, whether they're going to use that for um, all of their um, maintenance and plant replacement type stuff as well in the building or whether they're going to use it to even measure carbon throughout the building's life cycle. Now um, but having all that data built into the model is really important I think for people who following the standards, have accreditation, especially like around ISO 9650, you get a lot of benefits and just the simple things of making sure that people have the right approved, um, you know, accurate information on site to hand to go to work, which might seem a simple thing but even having that and enforcing that is a really important thing because if you have rework, if you have uh, you know, misinstallations because of wrong information, that's going to cost you time, it's going to cost you money and efficiency wise or non conformance and non compliance.

Host: So it's, yeah, there's an impact to that.

Mark Snell: Yeah, we're good at adopting process. I think in the UK we're not so good at following it.

Host: I think that's a human nature thing. Cut you some slack here.

Brett: Definitely not just the uk, from what I've seen too, in the travels. But Mark, you mentioned like around the people piece there and like people having the right information, but it's also about having the right people. So the competencies and things like that. And when I talk about right people, it's a great segue into our future state. What does the future of the workforce look like? So again, from a procore point of view, we've done it, obviously through our report, we've done a large amount of investigation into this and we see that labor shortages are still the number one challenge in construction. So this is globally, essentially. But 51% of workers want a better work life balance. 47% want tech used to improve safety and efficiency. So overall productivity, I guess. And then 42% of leaders say that upskilling drives that digital transformation. Um, and Mark, you've done a bit of work, so you brought in 100 apprentices at Delkia this year. And what role do your apprenticeships and early career training, um, play in Delka's broader strategy?

Mark Snell: Good question. So, uh, the broader strategy, I think you touched on it, labor shortages and skills gaps and, um, I think the only way that the industry will plug that is bringing in young new talent who can grow into the industry and drive the industry as well. Um, it's really refreshing to see Dalkia actually put their money where their mouth is and, uh, bring in so many people into the, into the industry. It's super competitive, though. Like you might have a couple hundred people per, uh, job application. You could have that.

Brett: And how do you secure that? Best one for yourself too, isn't it? Because equally there will be other companies who want them too.

Mark Snell: So, yeah, yeah, it's so competitive. It's a really competitive market, especially for young talent. But I don't think there's necessarily a shortage. Everyone keeps saying about the shortage. There's a lot of people applying for these roles. Um, I just don't know if all companies have got the funding to bring them in or if, if they've got the security. So interesting, you know, if a business can see a future pipeline and probably NHP scheme, the National Hospital program, the government's rolling out, if there was a future pipeline that people could see and they could, um, tangibly tap into that, then that would give them the ability to bring more apprentices, more young people into the industry because they'd have that security without landing that work or having that financial stability there. I don't think a lot of smaller SMEs in particular will be able to bring people in, really.

Brett: And I think from the digital transformation piece, I always talk about the digital literacy, but that younger generation are the ones that are. We don't have to upskill them in that area, but they need that upskilling because they don't have the knowledge. And I think that's the challenge of that. Knowledge is what is leaving the industry and that's what we need to capture in platforms, preferably. So, like, we. You're speaking about lessons learned and things like that. That's what we need to capture so that they've got those lessons, so that they can embed it and learn. Yep.

Mark Snell: Yeah. And technology can play a big part of that. And even, you know, imagine, wouldn't it be brilliant if there's an AI Brett of the future who's, uh.

Brett: Oh, he's amazing.

Mark Snell: Somebody who's. Who's teaching the younger generation? Um, I've had the privilege of working with really, really good, seasoned professionals from right through my apprenticeship right into design and consultancy and then into construction again. And, uh, a lot of them have now left the industry, but they've left their mark on me. I've learned so much from them and, um, you know, I want to pass that back now to the younger generation. I'm really passionate about upskilling people and I've always taken a really passionate, um, approach to upskilling apprentices or trainees, uh, and giving them the sort of chances that I had as I was growing up as well.

Brett: Yeah, you're speaking about design and dump. It's the opposite approach with training, isn't it? You can't just give someone something, you dump it on them and expect them to know it's. You need to invest that. So there's definitely a correlation there.

Mark Snell: Yeah. And I think that the change and shift since the pandemic and the working environment as well is a bit. Is a bit different now. So. So we used to all be in the office.

Brett: Yeah, that's.

Mark Snell: I was always on site or in the office and that's where I did all my learning. That's. I used to bug people. I'd be asking them questions all the time. They must have hated me. I just wanted to absorb loads of information, so. And now with people working a bit more remotely, you kind of need. With younger people, it's really hard to try and, you know, you just turn around in your chair and ask a question to another engineer in the office, you might not have that. I know you've got teams, but it's not quite the same. So, yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that progresses.

Host: Well, one of the things that we've been hearing as we're having these conversations across the globe is some, uh, firms that we've been speaking to and even on the owner side, the client side, um, they're starting to bring some of their seasoned professionals out of retirement and they're leveraging technology so that their knowledge is almost on demand. Um, so one client that we spoke to said, yeah, they started going through their roster of recent retirees and offering them packages to come back where they're playing a virtual help role, if you will, so that while someone's in the field through technology, they're connecting them together. And you could even have glasses on that have a. Chris always has glasses.

Brett: Chris has got these.

Host: His glasses, yes. Um, yeah. And I have to remind myself. Is Chris wearing his glasses? No, I'm joking. He doesn't ever record with that glasses.

Brett: So meta glasses with a little camera.

Host: Meta glasses with a camera. And he does that in order to prove a point that it is possible to be hands free on a job site, doing something, having a conversation with somebody who's completely remote but has all the knowledge and bringing that knowledge to the job site. Are there any things that you're seeing like that emerging in region where there's really creative ways that they're looking to create that mentorship relationship outside of the traditional being in the same office?

Mark Snell: No, not particularly. I mean, I think that's great ideas. Like, I think they're brilliant actually. Um, and I would love to see more of that. I think if, if we can use, you know, people going into semi retirement trying to get that knowledge and bring it back into the industry and have that ability, it would be absolutely amazing. Um, I like, I really like the idea with the glasses on site. I think that's excellent. I mean, um, yeah, it used to be a mobile phone, didn't it? It would be. I've got this problem. Can you help me out and try and explain that? It's really hard, but the visual is excellent. I think that would be.

Brett: Or if you just think how tech moves, how quickly it moves, like things that we saw 10 years ago, they don't exist anymore even, you know, they've moved on that much. So, yeah, definitely there.

Host: And one, one more thing on this because I think it is very interesting as we look at AI and because the UK has such a strong, um, grasp on the standards, even if adoption, the human element exists of adoption being not as, um, as consistent but because you have that grasp on the standards. If you think about even creating those mentorship programs of bringing those folks back into the conversation. When you partner AI with that conversation, not to be Big Brother, but to capture the data, you then can think about that, creating your large language model of lessons learned and best practices that then agentic AI can be assigned to to then actually help the business really transform into that predictive space. And I think that's where the UK may be a little bit ahead because you do have already the structure for clean data and that ability for that to actually fuel us forward.

Mark Snell: Yeah, yeah. And platforms like procore will only enhance that as well because you have got very good structured data from field systems and CDE as well. So all of that will help massively. Um, I mean we're doing a bit of development at the moment. We're looking at a, um, uh, lessons learned tool, working with uh, edf, who are a parent company, we're working with them and their R and D team developing that. And I think, um, that it will be good when it's finished and the more you feed it, the better it will be.

Host: Exactly.

Mark Snell: But you know, it's a very good point. If we can feed some of that knowledge and learning from people, um, who are leaving in industry back into these type of models as well. I think that the sky's limits really isn't. It's totally open. If you look at what's happened in the past three years and how far technology's moved, it's mind boggling. Um, and it's only going to increase, isn't it?

Host: Yeah, for sure. And I know that you're heavily involved with BSA and some of that, the technical bulletins that you've been publishing and you're also chairing working groups, which it's clear when, um, Brett was reading your resume, it was very clear that you're at that stage of your career where you really want to give back and make sure you're setting up the next generation for success. How do you see BISA helping? Am I saying that right?

Brett: Yeah.

Host: To shape the way the industry thinks about that mentorship workforce development and training initiative. How are they thinking about it?

Mark Snell: They do quite a lot actually. I mean, I think probably, uh, David Freese, who's the CEO of besa, would actually be a very good, um, guest on a podcast. Really good industry leader and very, um, thought provoking as well. Um, but, uh, they work with um, a lot of industries or a lot of trade bodies in the UK as well. Um, they're looking at the Institute of Apprentices and Technical, uh, education, uh, to ensure the apprentice frameworks are fit for purpose and that the training matches what we need. Um, and they also have lots of free publications, um, free online training as paid training as well. Um, and they're doing lots of CPDs, which is upskilling the industry as well. Um, there's a lot they give back and there's some really, really talented people who are, you know, voluntarily giving their time and their effort back into the industry to either rewrite publications or enhance them or to write new publications. It's really refreshing to see the passion of the people when they sit in a technical committee with all the members there. Yeah, it's really, really, really good.

Brett: Yeah. All wanting to give that knowledge back. That is brilliant.

Mark Snell: Yeah. And like, some of the stuff they're looking at, Heat networks and things like that, and they're doing online webinars and it's all free training and people can sign up to it. It's just nice to see an association giving stuff back to the industry as well. Um, and that can be designers as well. And, um, I think some of the stuff we're writing on the TB50, um, six series that you talked about, so some of that is all focused really on spatial fit of building services. So that's the biggest problem we find technically. Designs are usually pretty good. It's, does it fit in the building? Does it. Can we access it, can we maintain it?

Brett: Can we cram everything in and we can't do anything with it later when it breaks?

Mark Snell: Pushing that back in and giving consultants awareness of that. And I know part ex consultant friends, uh, and colleagues, they're now using the publications that we've got and they're helping, they're taking them to educate the younger engineers, but they're also referencing them in their, um, in their reports and in their designs as well as good best practice to try and secure that, um, you know, get the right size riser, to get the right size plant room, that type of stuff.

Host: Yeah, I saw that. Actually, you just posted that on your LinkedIn. Um, and I was, I was glad that you brought that up because I thought that was one way of leveraging past experience to set best practice and kind of inform. So when I was seeing that on your LinkedIn page, I thought we have to start looking at everything or breaking data away from this nerdy. It's somehow this very pristine, structured kind of concept, when actually it's conversations, webinars, lessons learned, A, uh, listicle. It's all these different things and even your LinkedIn and your ability to kind of share that best practice with the industry and with the community is. I think that's how we should be looking at data in general. How are we sharing these lessons learned with each other? And I think, Brett, you always ask the question of. Well, we've been talking about these things that are future state, but really how far off are they?

Brett: Yeah, I mean, and exactly we've unpacked there the future of design, the future of decision making and the future of the workforce. But um, Mark, where do you think these changes are? 5, 10, 20 years away? Or are they literally around the corner? Or a little bit of a mix and match?

Mark Snell: Uh, probably a bit of a mix and match. I mean, uh, lots of the new tech that's going to be coming into the industry within the next five years will be normal best practice adopted. I think AI is, you know, revolutionizing things, changes monthly. Yeah, yeah. If you go back a few years, you know, you kind of dabbled a little with chat, GBT or whatever, but now, you know, we've got AI built into our processes in our systems. You know, it's on my desktop.

Brett: You've got a whole strategy around it, your business probably, don't you?

Mark Snell: Yeah, if we need to, you know, we need a bit more training that's quite apparent to get the best use of it. But you can make people's lives a lot easier. Um, in the industry, I'm talking to people and they're creating small things but will help a lot, like document creation tools which will be AI generated chatbot where somebody can create a new project management plan and it will be prompts and it will fill out, it will take 90% of the work away, technical submissions, all this type of stuff. It will all happen I think very quickly in the next five years. There's definitely going to be longer term stuff. Some of the more advanced things. I mean we've talked before about BIM dogs or BIM robots going around site. You know, that type of stuff I think is a cost thing. Um, probably a little bit of a shift for people's mindsets as well to rely on robotics and more advanced technology to do some of the work for them. Um, but yeah, I think that will come as well. Um, and I think probably the longest thing, which is probably the saddest as well, is the people stuff that's going to take a long time to embed. Um, because unfortunately, even if we do bring in 100 people, a percentage of them will leave the industry. And that's just the way the industry is, unfortunately. We need to work on how we keep them in the industry. Uh, and keeping good talent in the industry, that's a really important thing. I don't think we've cracked that as an industry yet or probably as a business, but.

Brett: No, I think you're right. As an industry, I don't think we've quite cracked it. And we could have more collective, these bodies coming together to figure that out a bit more.

Mark Snell: Yeah, we need to make the industry attractive for people. Everyone keeps saying that, but you've got to look at the new generations coming through and what they have, what they want.

Host: They want the expectation.

Mark Snell: Yeah. Uh, they don't want to be in an office 9 to 5 like my daughters now. I'm sorry, you know, she's looking at jobs, she's leaving, doing her A level. She wants to get an apprenticeship and she's looking at things. She's saying, I don't want to do. That's boring. I want to have a bit of free time. I want to be in and around a city, in a hub. I want to be with people and. But I want my own time as well.

Brett: And I also want to work from home.

Mark Snell: Yeah, yeah. So there's a. We need to respond to that definitely as an industry, to make things more attractive. I think we're starting to do a better job. Yeah. Um, but, yeah, definitely needs to happen because otherwise we won't keep people in the industry. That's what we need.

Host: Agreed. Agreed. And that, by the way, is very universal, that concept. I think others are just at various stages of actually really delivering on what's going to retain that talent and how do we make this industry, Our policies, all of those things align to the expectations of that next generation coming in. Well, this has been so exciting. I really appreciate, Mark, all of the insights you've given, especially right off the top, coming right out of the gate with, uh, these gems of ideas of how we should be interacting with the design. But this is the stage of our conversation where I'm going to hand it over to Brett. We're going to ask you five rapid questions. These are really meant to be just rapid fire, top of the mind. So, Brett, I'll turn it over to you.

Brett: Yeah. Mark M. First one, uh, what book would you most recommend?

Mark Snell: Uh, it's probably one I'm reading at the moment. So it's Legacy, uh, by James Kerr, uh, which is a, uh, book around All Blacks, which is a great book about. It's about Being humble. It's about doing the small things yourself, never being too big to do the small things. And about team and the power of Team M as well. So I read it a few times. That's just great.

Brett: But feeds into culture straight away, isn't it? That's nothing better than sports teams when you think about the culture that to win you have to create this amazing culture. So. Yeah, brilliant. Alrighty, next one. What is your go to source for gaining a different or more informed perspective?

Mark Snell: Um, I suppose it depends what, um, if it's, if it's work wise. It was always my dad. I mean unfortunately he passed away last year but he was always a real inspiration and uh, somebody I could bounce ideas off, uh, and get a very honest opinion which, which was appreciated I suppose. Now we also, we've got a very good senior leadership team in the technical function at Dalkia. Uh, we bounce things off one another quite a lot. So important in and out of work. It's great having that sort of network inside and uh, being very honest with one another as well. Um, and I think generally in life if I want to be a bit grounded and understand stuff, my wife. So I always get a good honest

Brett: answer, Very politically correct answer.

Host: Yeah, I was going to say well spoken.

Brett: You're not in the dog box when you get home. Okay, next one. If you could give your younger self one piece of advice, what would it be?

Mark Snell: Uh, I'd say always take the chances you're given because the chances you don't take are the ones you regret.

Brett: Oh yeah. Okay, next one. What's one trend or innovation you think will shape the future of construction?

Mark Snell: I mean it's going to be AI, isn't it? But I think um, other than AI and models that will be coming through in the future, I think the uh, younger generation will be something ah, that will shape the future construction because they are the ones who are going to drive the industry. They're the ones who are going to want to innovate. They are the ones who are going to drive the tech, drive the industry forward because it's what they want. They don't, they want to be working smarter, not harder. So yeah, I think it'd be great.

Brett: And I agree with you. The younger. They're not. I don't even think they're going to be talking about A.I. uh, because it's going to be the way of doing things. So it's like you're not talking AI as this thing that will fix. It's just what we do. Yeah, I love that. Okay, last one. Uh, if construction as an industry had a tagline, what would it be?

Mark Snell: Uh, I think to capture sort of where the industry is at the m minute, especially in the uk. I think it would be quality, uh, first, uh, compliant always. And, uh, modernize or die. Or maybe not. Modernize. Die is a bit stronger.

Brett: Yes, but no, no, no. Strong is scary.

Host: Mark Farber. Let's.

Brett: Yeah.

Host: Bring it forward.

Brett: No, we even see that if you don't modernize, if you're not following that journey, companies are going insult. So it's true.

Host: It's very true. Very relevant. Well, Mark, thank you so much for joining us today. This was a great conversation. There was so much that I, um, know I learned. There's an acronym, actually, that you used earlier. I'm going to have to ask you about, though, because that one, I don't have the decoder for that one. But for those of you who are watching, if you'd like to download Procore's Future State of Construction report, it's on our website. And if anything that was shared here today resonated with you, please, like, subscribe, share the content, comment on the content, let us know what your thoughts are, and we'll keep bringing you the stories of leaders who are shaping our future, harnessing the power of construction.