Flosonics CEO Joe Eibl

Speaker A: Welcome back to the Physician Syndicate podcast. I am your host Greg. And today we have another founder joining us for a quick podcast on his company that he started back in 2016 called Flosonics Medical. And we have the CEO and co founder Joe Eibel.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here and it's good to uh, reconnect.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I guess the backstory. So when I was running FlipMD, Joe was actually one of the first people I think I reached out to, um, on LinkedIn for like a cold, cold outreach about using the platform. So that's how I actually met Joe. And we've kind of, I've kept abreast of what's going on with flowsonics, mostly through LinkedIn. Um, so pretty familiar with kind of what you guys are doing, but let's go back to like the very beginning. Um, you know you're from Canada I believe, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, we're Ontario based company. Sudbury, Ontario in Toronto is kind of northern, uh, corridor between big city and a small city. So it's been a really great place to start a company. And Toronto is just an amazing talent pool. So it's been uh, really important to be able to find the right people to work with when you're building something new. Nobody's done it before. You got to figure it out and you can't do it by yourself. So having the uh, right teammates on the way through is really important. And we've got just an amazing um, talent pool here in Ontario.

Speaker A: Yeah. So let's talk about Flowsonic. So you have a PhD, right? In bimolecular science and then a BS looks like in microbiology and immunology. So how did this idea for Flowsonics and I guess Flow patch. Right. So that's your first product that you brought out to market. So let's go really far back to like how the hell do you have this idea? What is the idea? What does the product do?

Speaker B: Yeah, you know, it's one of those long, long ARC stories. So I did my uh, undergrad in Vancouver and my roommate, um, who's co founder in the company back at that time, we just met each other and kind of stayed in touch. I went on to do basically a bunch of grad studies in physiology and then some uh, bioengineering postdocs. And while I was doing that, John, uh, my co founder ended up, uh, he did medical school and um, internal medicine and ICU medicine. And then when he kind of finished his uh, fellowship it was right about the same Time that I was finishing up my postdoc studies and I was doing this really cool project where I was um, using ultrasound to monitor industrial processes and basically turning the. Sudbury where I live is a big mining town. And so we have these big smelters that convert, um, ore into precious metals. And part of that byproduct is all this industrial process that ends up pumping out a bunch of carbon dioxide into the environment. So I was trying to do a carbon capture project using um, biofuel or algae to create biofuels and do carbon capture. But I was using ultrasound to monitor the process in industrial pipes. And then John, who's my co founder, was, ah, managing critically ill patients, uh, in the icu. And he's like, man, you know, one of the biggest challenges that I've got is, you know, for these patients, I'm trying to optimize their blood flow, but there's no easy way to get blood flow. And I'm currently doing it with ultrasound, but it's just, it's cumbersome, it's time consuming. And I, I get kind of like a snapshot of um, um, what's happening with the patient. Really what I'm looking for is kind of a video. I want to see kind of how my interventions or how my um, my clinical decisions are really impacting that blood flow. And I've got an idea for a wearable patch that would kind of give us that information using Doppler ultrasound. So I was kind of doing it on the industrial side and had a pretty good idea of how it worked. And he had the, identified that clinical unmet need. So that was really the uh, genesis. He was saying, you know, we've got this problem. And I was, okay, you know, I'm not sure that how to do this exactly, but I'm pretty sure we can figure it out. So that was basically the uh, catalyst event that started the company.

Speaker A: Yeah, it brings me back to being in the surgical icu, taking care of transplant patients and having no idea what their hemodynamics were actually like. Unless you have some kind of invasive technology, whether it's like a radial artery, um, line in, that's measuring pressures as best as it can, or a Swan Gan's catheter or something like that. So that's, that's interesting. So what was that like then building that product out, especially early on, like, what was the actual process for you and saying, okay, we have this idea. How do we actually get from idea to product and real company?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, that part was a really interesting Learning. So I'm came right out of grad school first time founder. Um, John's an academic physician and my brother was the third um co founder in the company. He's an ops guy. So you know it's kind of the three of us putting our brains together and trying to figure out how to get kind of a first proof of concept together. So we worked with a bunch of contract engineering firms in the early days, some folks with ultrasound background. But really a big catalyst for us was actually through our network we met um, a gentleman by the name of Paul Mannion, Paul's PhD ultrasound engineer, credited with a whole bunch of ultrasound innovation. And it was just serendipity that um, John met him through an introduction from one of his co fellows or um, colleagues who had knew of him and it was just as simple as an email phone call and he's like oh yeah, yep, great idea, I know how to do this. Let me uh, let me see if I can help. And um, he joined the company, uh, was one of our first investors and he's the chairman of our board now. So he's been just a tremendous help on the way through and you're really been able to give a lot of guidance. I think if you go back to those early days and look at those crystallizing or catalytic events that push a company forward, a technology forward, a lot of them come from network synergies. Just that chance meeting that doesn't happen if you're not getting out and talking to people. And I think if I give myself some advice, hindsight's 2020 but give myself some advice. 5, 10 years ago it would have been 2 maybe 20 years ago now. But you know, just always keep that network top of mind. Nurture relationships, find the people that you like to work with and when you find them, find um, excuses to work with them. It's, it's uh, nothing happens without putting energy out into the universe. Right. So it's, it's part of what creates opportunities for companies to move forward and all of those. You could probably point to another dozen knock on events that that happened after that. But that was a really big one for us.

Speaker A: So let's go through like the product iteration. Right. So what did that first product look like? I know I was looking at your website today, I was like that looks like a little, very like what a 2 inch little sensor basically like wireless ultrasound.

Speaker B: Yeah. If you go to the website flosonicsmedical.com, you can get a view of the product. We've Got some demo videos up there that you can see and there's a number, um, papers. Yeah. So it's for sure the world's smallest ultrasound machine. It's fully contained. It's about the size of an Apple watch face.

Speaker A: Is it a traditional ultrasound transducer? Does it have like the actual crystals in it or is it a different

Speaker B: technology, PCT based, uh, 4 MHz continuous wave, uh, ultrasound all packaged in, uh, this tiny form factor?

Speaker A: That's crazy.

Speaker B: Yeah. We could get into the specifics, but what is different about it from any other ultrasound machine is that we've got a really wide beam which goes into the neck about 4 centimeters. So you're going to pick up the jugular and the carotid artery. And, uh, the device is able to give you kind of a real time view of surrogates for the right heart with the jugular vein and the left heart with the carotid artery.

Speaker A: And then you also analyze both. You guys are analyzing both venous and arterial. That's actually really cool.

Speaker B: I didn't realize that you can see them evolve when you do preload maneuvers or you're changing vent settings. It's, it's, it's absolutely wild. It's really, uh, it's the first time anybody's seen this stuff. Right. So it's, it's also new. So there's, there's a really great body of evidence for the carotid artery in volume resuscitation or stroke volume surrogates. There's a really great body of evidence for the jugular vein as surrogate for filling pressures on the right heart. But putting those two together in real time, we can actually create a Doppler Starling curve that you can see evolve. You could test your patient when they come into the emergency department or when they're getting dialysis or when they're moving into the, into the icu. There's a whole bunch of different ways that you can use it. And it's, uh, it's really cool to see. We're live in patients, clinical decisions being made. And it's a, it's a really big, big shift from that first prototype, which I think was where your, your question was to, to start with, why you're saying,

Speaker A: was it a person like, with the actual ultrasound probe just like staying there for hours?

Speaker B: Yeah, you know, it was. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I'd say there's, there were probably three or four big jumps. The first one we just took, uh, bedside point of care ultrasound, a, uh, plastic, um, wedge and kind of a couple rubber bands and kind of tied them to my neck and showed that we could kind of keep, keep the signal. And that was pretty tricky. You know, it wasn't optimally designed, but you know, we got a couple proof of concepts showing that we could um, track changes as positional changes or preload maneuvers or passive like grazes. And then it was, the next step was okay, we, you know, we know we can do it with a uh, commercial device. Can we shrink this down? Can we get the circuitry right? And then that was our kind of next step. And it, that was kind of uh, what you'd expect. Just big breadboards, wires hanging all over the place and um, uh, custom transducer, uh, that we had built with some collaborators in Canada here who were just ultrasound, um, experts. So that part of the um, journey was really great. And that was kind of like the next big step was, you know, demonstrating that we could do it with all our own components, which happened. And that was right about the catalyst where we were able to raise a round of funding. So one of the pieces of advice that I got early on, and I don't, I don't think I gave it enough credibility at this or credence at the start, but it was really that in medtech, your prototype is your currency, right? So how, how investors look at you, where they, how they judge where you're on the cycle, can you do what you said you were going to do really revolves around that piece of equipment that you have in pharma might be clinical data, in interventional stuff, it might be first in human. But for a technology like ours, just seeing is believing and having that first, first ability to put it on, put the transducer on somebody's neck and investors that can see the, the real time, their eyes light up and go, oh man, like I haven't seen this before. This is, this is something different. That uh, is one thing telling somebody that you're going to do it, it's another thing when you, you've got a proof of concept and now you're, you're getting that capital to miniaturize it or make it more usable or make it manufacturable or bring it through regulatory clearance. Those are all the kind of the next obvious milestones. We spent uh, an enormous amount of time and pre pandemic on the build side and that led to that prototype, led to our first round of financing and then our first round of financing culminated with regulatory clearance and, and getting the device into the um, cleared by the fda.

Speaker A: So you guys are cleared basically both in the US And Canada at this point.

Speaker B: Any other places are cleared C. Uh, mark for the EU markets as well. We're really focused on the US Small startup, you can imagine. It's just, you can't be everywhere at once. You pick a, pick a spot. And we're, we're stateside right now.

Speaker A: How many, like hospitals, uh, are you guys in right now, or clinics or whatever you guys are focusing on? If you can say, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Speaker B: it's, it's in like the low tens. Um, so, and, and various parts of. When you launch something, you go through these different, um, onboardings and you get a, you start with kind of like a pilot and getting a couple people familiar with it. Then you do kind of train the trainer. So you get a group of clinicians inside the account that are familiar with it, and then you integrate into the care pathway as the next step. So all of the patients that are coming through, uh, are you guys focused

Speaker A: on the ED or are you guys focused ICUs? Like, uh, there's a few places I can see this being super useful.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great question and I think of it as a platform technology, but really when you introduce something that's new in clinical workflow, you got to be pretty concise on and clear on, on what you're doing, where to use or what patient population, how does it impact your, the clinical management of that patient on the way through. So you can't really try to boil the ocean in the, in those that. The early days. I don't know if you can ever boil the ocean really, but you got to stay focused on what, um, where our core value, uh, proposition is. So we're focused on both the ED and icu, and it's really helping physicians and nurses make, uh, giving them visibility to make more informed decisions earlier in the care pathway. The patients that we're primarily interested are septic patients that are coming into the emergency department. They're hypotensive. They usually have some, or very often have some kind of, um, comorbidity, chf, some other, uh, pulmonary, something else that's wrong with them. And there's a question as to whether the volume or the, the intravenous fluids that are getting on board are going to help or potentially harm them, put them at risk of fluid overload. And the later that you've, the later that you wait to, to check, um, the higher the likelihood that those, those patients are going to get too much volume and then you end up with pulmonary edema and all the, uh, the downstream effects of fluid overload.

Speaker A: That's why radiologists see so many chest X rays in the morning.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Fluid status. Fluid status. Yeah, yeah. You got um, when you're putting this actual ultrasound probe onto the person's neck, how hard is it actually to place it correctly? Because I know that if you have the wrong angle, especially with the carotid, your waveforms are going to be messed up. So like how hard is the user going to have to work to actually find the correct angle?

Speaker B: It's actually pretty easy. So with normal anatomy I'll kind of. Yeah, with normal anatomy it's very easy. Um, and most, most of the clinical implementations are combination physicians and nurses and paramedics, um, using it. So there's no, no very low bar to be able to get the device on, acquire a good signal. There's a bit of training in the start so that the clinician obviously knows what to look for and can troubleshoot if the signal's not what they expect. The general, I'd say probably like three uses. Most of our clinical users are super comfortable after three. So the first one's kind of, uh, learning, the second one's kind of getting comfortable. Third one's like, okay, got this. You know, it's uh, so it's, it's pretty low, low bar for um, compared to traditional ultrasound where you might have to do a fellowship or you know, do a bunch of courses, it's, it's much easier than that. And that's a big part of the technology. Right. And I think something that we'll see more and more as devices and technologies evolve is the ability of the technology to do the heavy lifting on interpreting the data and putting up the metrics that the clinician needs to make the informed decision rather than having to use that technical expertise and manual workflow to acquire that data. So you're seeing it all over the place in imaging and we're taking advantage of that with Doppler and these real time blood flow or stroke volume circuit assessments.

Speaker A: And since you guys are taking waveform and you're basically doing an analysis of the waveform, does that have to be read by somebody ultimately or is that just as part of like a, it's a new vital sign, basically?

Speaker B: Yeah. I think you could probably think of it in either camp, in that sepsis care pathway that we're doing. It's an assessment at the bedside. So it's kind of a focused ultrasound study that you're doing on the patient where you're asking okay, what's the patient's baseline? I'm going to give them this fluid and then did I move? Uh, our surrogates the corrected flow time that we use. But basically did blood flow and did perfusion improve after I gave more preload? If yes, then the patients responded to fluids as I'm expecting and we do the software does all of that, um, waveform analysis for the clinician and what we give them at the end is this is what the change was. And then based on, based on literature and clinical thresholds, the physician, the nurse makes a decision as to how they're going to change their care or continue on their existing clinical course. Um, based on that data, and I'm

Speaker A: assuming this will be the last product question, but when you're using whatever the sticky pad that you're using is, there's some kind of just gel filled pad that helps with the actual transduction of the ultrasound waves. And that's the throwaway part. I'm guessing you're not going to throw away the uh.

Speaker B: Yeah, no pie.

Speaker A: Electric crystals.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So the device is um, single use reposable. So there's a single use adhesive component that you. Basically what we um, want the experience for the user to be is like these patients are sick, you've already got enough going on. You just want to open a package, put the device on the patient and be able to ask your clinical question. So the closer we can make that experience for the clinician, the better. So the devices, the way they come prepackaged, you open them up, turn them on, place them on the patient. Uh, we've developed for iOS so it's all iPad based user interface. So very great workflow, super responsive, all of kind of uh, the benefits of the Apple experience are on that, that device monitoring technology. All of the data is available in the cloud, so the reports are auto generated for EHR interoperability. So it's pretty seamless on the workflow side. But to your point, after you've placed the device on the patient, device will last over the course of that resuscitation. So kind of 72 hours is kind of the top end of the target. And then when it's done, just take a device, take the adhesive off that goes in the garbage. We provide a recycled return bin for um, for the department.

Speaker A: How many have you lost?

Speaker B: Yeah, you know what it I, it's, you'd be surprised at how good people are at ah, returning stuff. I mean it uh, it does happen where one ends up in the, in the Incinerator one ends up in the, the laundry bin or whatever. But for the most part, return rates have been well over 80%. So it's, it's pretty, Pretty good.

Speaker A: Cool.

Speaker B: And we, we provide a credit to the hospital when, when the devices get returned as well. It's kind of the, yeah, standard recycle incentive for, um, getting devices back.

Speaker A: All right, so let's switch over to kind of the, uh, more capital raising piece of all of this. So at least according to Crunchbase, it looks like you guys have raised $20 million in total. Is that.

Speaker B: Yeah. Almost on the button. Yep.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker B: That's right on.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, I mean, bring us back to those raises. What was your initial? Did you guys have a pre seed or a seed round first?

Speaker B: Yeah. Great, Great question. Your typical trajectory would be friends and family, maybe seed round, and then A and then B. We kind of jumped to. I don't know if I would call them seed rounds or A's or B's, or just call it first round we did five, uh, million. Second round we did 14. So 19 million is the number. Um, and, you know, that first round, it kind of started off with, um, a couple angel investments from physicians that I knew that understood the problem and that I had, you know, a relationship with. And they said, okay, here's, uh, you know, here's first couple of checks. And I think that ended up being about quarter million bucks, um, of our first 5 million. And that kind of got us off to the races to be able to get that prototype together, the one that was kind of built with all our own components. And then through that investment on their side, they just did it as a note. And then that converted into the round that the, uh, Igan Partners and Genesis Capital, uh, led in. 20.

Speaker C: Uh, 17.

Speaker B: Yeah, 2017. So it was kind of 2016. We got a first bit of capital in and that converted into a proper A round. And with MedTech's a little bit different than, um, software, where you need a lot of money to be able to develop hardware. There's regulatory, there's quality systems. You need a team to do it. You know, it's not something that you can put together and build with, uh, you know, one or two people.

Speaker A: It's a different beast.

Speaker B: Yeah, team, big team effort. So we kind of went from three people that were all founders kind of doing it with a bunch of consultants and some angel money to when we raised that round of capital. That's where you kind of bring it in house and start hiring some really talented people. And turn into a real company. And that was um, that was a big um, crystallizing event for us. And it took a little bit of time. First time founder, like just getting the mindset that you know, you go from managing capital from a milestone based um, lens. So I've got, I've got $100,000 and I need to get a ah, prototype together. If that takes you six months, a year, two years and you're not collecting a salary, that, that's um, something that you can manage based on a milestone. But then when you kind of raise that round of capital and you start bringing employees in that it moves into a more of a momentum um, based denominator. And now it's okay, I've got this million dollars and um, I need to get to my milestone FDA or whatever milestone you've set for the round. But then it's okay, I gotta get there. And the faster I get there, the easier it is to gonna be to raise my next round. But if I'm not moving that momentum, I'm not getting that product velocity, then you're kind of standing still and that, that makes life a lot harder. So having that mindset switch was uh, was a big learning for me.

Speaker A: And so now whether you call it an A or B, whatever, so, so you're 19 million in in terms of like raised capital. Is, is that something that you guys are like hey, we're gonna have to go out and raise again or now that you're kind of in the market you're like hey, we can maybe we have enough Runway to see if we can build up towards profitability or is it like you're definitely gonna raise whatever you see?

Speaker B: Definitely gonna raise some more. I mean and I think that that's pretty typical like commercial, commercial launch again is you're hiring a whole different team. Um, you've got all of the manufacturing set up. You know the, the margin stuff we've done a pretty good job on. Our margins are pretty mature, um, where we are today. But the getting all of the infrastructure, inventory, the quality system set up, the ISOs, 1345, um, surfing all of the, the operational um, items end up being um, big upfront investments and building that revenue to kind of match that is going to take more capital investment. For sure. For sure.

Speaker A: And so where do you see Flowsonics going? I'm assuming Flow Patch is the first product. Assuming um, you guys are going to have some other products come out. I don't know. Uh, but where do you see the company going? Is this like hey, we're going to continue to build a product line and you know, attempt an IPO type of situation. Or is this more like, hey, we're going to set ourselves up for potential acquisition by a big, big, big device company. Like where do you see it going? We can take this out too if it's like uh.

Speaker B: No, no, I mean, just to know. Yeah, no, I mean like my, you're always every day building, building a better company for tomorrow. And I uh, sit. It's definitely true for the founding team and I'm sure it's true for all of our, for the whole team in the company as well, that our main goal is to create technologies that improve patient care, make physicians lives better and have an impact on the greater good. So if that is the guiding philosophy, the best way that we can get there is to continue to execute on that vision. And the best way to execute on that vision is to continue to build uh, the company, build the team and you um, move towards a sustainable organization that can grow um, over the long term. Whether that's continuing to stay VC funded or if that's some combination of um, independent company but with strategic partners for different verticals. There's, there's a number of ways that we can get there. But that's, I'd say overall that's our guiding, guiding um, guiding light. Coming back to the technology and the products that are available. What we've built is a wearable blood flow sensor. You can imagine, you gotta zoom out.

Speaker A: You say put that in a lot of places.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's like, is blood flow important? I think uh, obviously the answer is yes. And then the follow up question is how do you, how do we currently measure blood flow? And that's a little bit more of a head scratcher, right? Yes, we can use Doppler ultrasound. Yes, they're invasive technologies but can you do that easily in the home, in the general medical floor, in the back of an ambulance, in transport? And the answer is yes, yes you can. Right with, with our technology. So um, and so we think of it as the hardware, as a platform and then the software is where the, a lot of the new product development is going to be coming and that will be likely for uh, different indications, different patient populations.

Speaker A: And yeah, there's a lot of different ways that you can go. Especially if you get through like vascular surgery and like worried about stents going down and graphs going down. It's like, okay, just put an ultrasound probe on it. You get continuous monitoring of it and you gotta understand when the waveform changes to something that's not great. Like, there's a lot of different ways

Speaker B: you guys can use it.

Speaker A: Even like something as simple as like a bladder scan for a patient, he's like, oh, just put an ultrasound probe just directly over their bladder and just continue watching it.

Speaker B: Yeah, there's a lot of chance. There's a whole bunch of, um. And then if maybe think a little bit further out and all of the excitement that, you know, um, machine learning, computer vision, AI has each cardio, each carotid, um, pulse or Doppler pulse has fingerprints of what's happening in the vasculature, what's happening in the heart, what's happening in the receiving tissue upstream, downstream. Yeah. And being able to, to use that, that rich information that we, we can't identify with just looking at it on the, on an ipod, but in the background, you can be gaining deep insights. I think that's going to be a huge value driver for us five times.

Speaker A: I'm sure neurosurgery would be interested in using that especially for stroke patients and stuff like that where it's like, yeah, ah, if something change. Changes in the downstream, something's going to change in your carotid poles potentially. Like, there's a lot of things you can pull from that.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, 100%. And anecdotally you can see it when you put it on a patient that's, you know, got, got normal, healthy and then you put it on, you put it on a stroke patient. Like, there's, there's huge differences in the waveform and that some of the, some of the, the features are, are, are very well validated and some of them are totally novel that we're seeing. So.

Speaker A: But also PEs. Right. It's like you, if you guys are looking at the jugular vein, you' get a good sense of the right ventricle and the right atrium. It's like you guys can get a lot of interesting stuff out of that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Especially if it's over time.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And watching it evolve. Right. So that's, that's another part that as you're, you're seeing fingerprints of one pathology, you're making clinical decisions.

Speaker A: That's a great point.

Speaker B: Especially watching how the, the intervention moves the needle or doesn't.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Because if you're doing a pe, like thrombolysis case and you, you're just like literally lysing something in the pulmonary and you can just follow along and see what the right jugular is doing. It's like it makes A lot of sense, uh, to be able to be like, oh yeah, it's probably time to go pull those lysis catheters, do one more quick contrast injection and be like, okay, we're good versus like, usually it's just like 24 hours and you can go back without any data other than you think it's done.

Speaker B: But yeah, Ah, yeah, yeah. I mean getting objectivity is a really big value, a big part of the value that a technology like ours can create.

Speaker A: Yeah man, that's very cool. Well, I think we've touched on the tech, we've touched on the capital raise. We got a lot of physician listeners, um, that are potentially listening to this and you're like, man, this sounds really cool. I'm an ICU doc, I'm a Pullman Crick care or I'm an emergency room attending. How the heck do I figure out how to get this technology in house? How do we start a pilot? Who should they reach out to? How do they find you? Any plugs?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's great. Well, please, please visit, uh, our website, uh, flowsonicsmedical.com if uh, you go into PubMed and just type in Flosonics, uh, I think we've got 33, 34 manuscripts now that are um, published, peer reviewed, describing case reports, uh, across a variety of different, uh, validation studies, etc. Um, or you can get me on uh, LinkedIn, uh, Joe Eibel, Flosonics. I'll, uh, pop up, I'll be very responsive. So, uh, happy to anybody that thinks this gets uh, the value prop or is interested in uh, bringing it into the hospital. We're primarily focused on that sepsis and resuscitation care pathway. But we've had a lot of interest in many of the other use cases that you've identified. And we're looking for those innovators and the people that uh, share our vision for wearable and wireless Doppler, uh, as a future standard of care and medicine.

Speaker A: Yeah. So 32 manuscripts on PubMed after checking. So I'll put into the show notes, uh, a couple links, one to the website, one to Joe's LinkedIn profile, and then one to uh, their PubMed articles. For anybody that's interested in looking, it's nice to also see you guys are actually like publishing. Um, there's a lot of companies that are, are within medical device or digital health that are claiming a lot of things that do not publish one thing about what they're doing. And it's like if you're trying to sell this to a doctor, to a physician. Um, they're going to want to see what the actual results. Results are and understand like, do you guys actually care about like patient outcomes and stuff like that. So it's good to see you guys are actually publishing literature that's uh, it's definitely different than a lot of other companies.

Speaker B: I give a lot of credit to, uh, to John, um, Emil Kenny, my co founder. He's, you know, we're both academics, but at heart and uh, in training and all of this is curiosity and um, patient centric development. Right where all we're trying to do is help patients and help physicians make better decisions or have better information to inform their clinical decisions. We're going to continue down that path and really appreciate the uh, acknowledgement. All of the research had amazing collaborators. Um, worked with folks at Mayo here, uh, in uh, Ontario, at Health Sciences north, um, ucla and I'm definitely missing a few others. But uh, really great collaborations.

Speaker A: Fantastic. Well, thanks for joining and hopefully we can have you back on in a year or two once you guys raised that Series C. Or maybe you're pre IPO at that point and we can talk more, maybe have some more products on the platform also. So thanks for joining us Joe, and uh, we'll see you next time on the Physician.

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Thank you for tuning into today's episode. As always, we'd like to remind you

Speaker C: that the information and opinions expressed on this podcast are for educational and entertainment purposes only and should not be construed as financial or investment advice. Before making any investment decisions, we strongly recommend that you consult with your lawyer, tax professional and financial planner. Keep in mind that investing in startups can be extremely risky and there's a potential for loss of your entire investment. Remember to always conduct thorough research and consider your risk tolerance before making any financial decisions. Stay informed and we look forward to having you join us on our next episode of the Physician Syndicate podcast.