How to Build a Paralegal Business in Criminal Law Working With Attorneys | Corrin Swintosky

Speaker A: All right, Corinne, well, thank you so much for joining me on the paralegal business podcast. It's, uh, truly a pleasure to have you on here. Especially, I've been seeing amazing things on LinkedIn about your speaking and where you've taken your business and really getting mass visibility out there with your business. So I'm really excited to hear, and I know a lot of your story because you and I have been connected for. For quite a while. But for our listeners to hear, talk a little bit about your. Your background as a paralegal and what led you into starting your paralegal business.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Jacqueline. I appreciate the opportunity. Um, I always like to tell people in preface that I definitely didn't take the traditional path, uh, to being a paralegal. Uh, I have been in several sectors of the criminal legal system, um, and now being a criminal paralegal, uh, which has helped tremendously. Uh, I started as a probation officer back in, gosh, 2019. And that was an amazing, uh, first initial experience into the system. Uh, but I did realize very quickly that I couldn't help my ideal population how I wanted to. The case has already been sentenced, convicted. They're on probation with very limited resources to help people. So while I made great connections with my clients, I just couldn't help how I wanted to. Um, so Covid hit shortly after, as we know. And, um, I was out of a job, and I thankfully got a job as a court clerk in the criminal division with the court system in Minnesota, where I'm from. And that was incredible experience, learning about court operations, the ins and outs, inside of court, outside of court, um, how everything looks to different justice partners. But, uh, as we know, you do need to remain impartial. And I realized after a couple years that my passion for helping the defense and helping these clients go through the system exceeded my ability to remain impartial. So I'm like, all right, I gotta go into law. I gotta go and get my paralegal certificate. So that's what I did. It was a fully online program, and I was fortunate enough to get a job in the public defender's office, which was insane. Trial work, discovery work, super deep dive. Um, but there was something in me that's like, I want to help on a larger scale. I want to help clients on a larger scale, help attorneys. So I actually started my freelance journey In January, gosh, 2023, I want to say, uh, on Upwork, which I don't recommend now. Upwork is so oversaturated with people charging $5 an hour. And like, clients can be iffy. It's a lot of pro se stuff too. So I would steer clear now, but at the time it wasn't as oversaturated. I got a couple clients, was kind of taking, you know, tasks here and there. And, um, it wasn't until April that I think was when I found your courses and found kind of your platform and like, hey, you can make this into a legit business. It doesn't just have to be on the side and kind of willy nilly. So I took a chance on myself. I quit the job at the public defender's office. I filed for my llc. I started just going, um, fully into it. And, um, here we are three years later, criminal paralegal, helping solo and small law firms across the country with case management.

Speaker A: So, yeah, that is, that's so incredible. And one fellow criminal law junkie to another, I totally, I totally get it. There's just a special place in my heart for criminal. I miss it a lot. I have to ask, did you ever consider going into the prosecutor's office?

Speaker B: I did, actually. Before I went independent, there was a job opening, uh, at a county in Minnesota. But I feel like once you're in this mindset of defense, it's kind of jaded where you're like, you're always going to be like, wow, this isn't enough, or this doesn't make sense, you know, to prove the burden. So I think it would have been an amazing experience and I was open to it. But I think I'm so ingrained now in what I'm doing where it's like, all right, I'm good.

Speaker A: You know, it's just funny how everybody can find similarity, similarities in each. Everybody's stories together. Because before I started my business, I applied at our local in Wisconsin. Shout out to Minnesota, by the way. I think you know this, but I'm originally from northern Minnesota. I'm, um, north of Duluth. And. But. And I worked for a public defender there as an intern and just fell in love with it. And then when I went into general practice, like, the criminal cases were always my absolute favorite. Well, when I moved to Wisconsin, like, we were struggling and I'm like, okay, it's time. My son's getting a little bit older. I'm going to try to get a job at the prosecutor's office. And I have never bombed an interview as badly as I did. I think the prosecutor, like, she saw right through me that prosecution was not my passion. Like defense work all the way. Because I just kept talking about defense work and trying to draw parallels of how that can help. You know, I, I already know what the, the defense is thinking and where they're, you know, how they're, they're operating. And yeah, I didn't get it, so it was funny. But yeah, criminal law is amazing and it's, it's unique though because I don't see a ton of paralegals out there with full blown criminal defense niches in their business. Um, a lot of paralegals and I'm just, I like to ask the hard questions here. A lot of paralegals don't think there's enough money in it, especially in the defense sector in terms of what you could charge as a rate because, you know, a lot of attorneys weigh, undercharge their retainers and you're not always dealing with people that have a ton of money to defend themselves. And so all of those things, I've, I've had a few, uh, paralegal outright say to me, yeah, I would love to go into business, but I'm in criminal law and there's just, I, there's no way an attorney would hire me for 60, 70, whatever per hour or so. Have you. What, how have you kind of navigated that? I guess I might be getting, putting the cart in front of the horse here. Maybe talk a little bit about your first couple of clients, but what type of client demographic are you primarily working with? Is it solo small talk through a little bit of what your clientele looks like as a criminal, uh, paralegal in business?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's a great question because I've heard other paralegals interested in going independent and criminal kind of say the same thing and not had great experiences. Uh, I would say when I first started on upwork, like we all go through that was kind of just anything. And I would, you know, didn't know what I wanted to do. Took whatever client, whatever attorney. But once I started my business and was like, nope, I'm going to do criminal, um, I started with attorneys who I already knew because I had worked for the public defender's office, I'd worked for the courts. So I was kind of just reaching out to contacts I knew about. And my first couple clients were. Well, one was a solo attorney, he was a general practitioner but did a lot of criminals. So he um, gave a lot of work to me in that way. And then my other big client from the jump was actually a, ah, nonprofit in Minnesota that specialized in post conviction relief. Um, so since they were a Nonprofit and had a bunch of grant. Well, a bunch of grant money. I don't know how much, but they could afford me.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: So since they had a lot of grant money and couldn't, I don't think they were ready to hire a full time person. They're like, oh, this is someone who can just jump in and hit the ground running and do the work and we'll, you know, pay her her rate. What have you. Um, I've noticed since I've upped my rates over time because, you know, I've been in business a couple years now, that I think it's helped weed out kind of the people who maybe are more general practitioner. I found that my clients now are very niched in what they do. So it's not just crim defense. It's like I am a DWI attorney or I specialize in sex offenses as an attorney and I'm like your go to attorney in whatever jurisdiction it's in. And I've also dabbled a little bit into civil uh, and criminal forfeitures. Since there's usually a seizure of money element. Um, I either get a cut or get paid a percentage or flat fee from that. Uh, so it's mixed, I guess. I'm still, I think even three years later trying to find my niche within criminal. I thought criminal is the niche and now I've been in it for three years and I'm like, oh my gosh, there's still so much I could do within criminal, um, so I'm trying to still position myself as like the criminal, the criminal paralegal, um, for criminal defense attorneys. But they're also very niched as well and can charge like those higher fees to be able to afford someone like myself.

Speaker A: Oh, that is so good. That's really good, like parallel though there, because that translates to paralegals too. And don't get me wrong, as the uh, queen of jack of all trades, master nun. I dabbled in every single practice area, you know, short of cannabis or something, just out of pocket oil and gas. You know, I've dabbled in a little bit of everything. And when I started my business, it was really hard for me to find any confidence or find any like lane and clarity around what my business was. Because I was like, well, these are my services and personal injury and these are my services and estate planning and probate and da da da da da, and all over the place. And when you do that, you, you truly start to feel more like a, a jack of all trades, master of none. Although I Have heard that side comment that that quote actually always gets cut off because it's supposed to be jack of all trades. Master of none is something. It makes it sound better. I don't. But whatever. I always say that like it's a negative thing. It's not a negative thing to have a diverse background in a bunch of different practice areas. But it's the same thing. Like you said you that that's really good advice to say. Your target audience got even clearer. You avoided the random. Not avoided, but you weren't targeting the random random DWI case inside a general practice firm or the random sex offender case inside of a general practice firm. You went straight to the strong niche in criminal where they're also able to then charge more for that criminal because they are known for it. And that's. Lawyers running law firms is very similar in advice to paralegals running businesses. Because attorneys that get out of that general practice, I have my door open for anybody that will give us money. That was the first attorney I ever worked for. It was like nothing was off the table. We will take it all. Couldn't charge as much as like the, the criminal attorneys down in Duluth are down further away that would actually come up and, and represent these cases because they, they, it's their zone of genius and they can brand strongly that way. Um, that makes a ton of sense. And then I suppose you're, you're getting more consistent clients, ongoing, um, sustainable clients, uh, business sustainable clients. Because it isn't the, uh. Oh, we don't have any criminal law right now, but we'll let you know in the future. How do you structure your, um, relationships with your clients? Do you do monthly retainers, minimums, flat fees per project? How, how are you pricing that all out?

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. I, I initially did like a, a trial run or per project initially just to have people get a feel for the work that I do. Especially. A lot of attorneys don't know what a freelance paralegal is. They're not familiar. Um, but I would say in the past year or so, people especially criminal, I mean, has gotten so busy so many cases for a lot of these clients that they're like, if you can do the work, just dive in. So I have a, like monthly retainer or quarterly retainer, uh, fee structure with like a certain number of hours a week. I actually am trying to niche down more and do flat fee, like specific projects. Like I want a niche on discovery review, legal research and writing and post conviction because I found that I'm still, I'M not only the specialized paralegal, but I'm kind of like their only paralegal or doing a little bit of everything where they're still paying me to calendar and talk to clients. And that's all fine and dandy. I don't mind doing it. But I do want to try to position myself to be the person that does more of the substantive work. So I'm still trying to figure that out. It's still like monthly or quarterly retainer fees, but I'd love to move to more of a flat fee model. Especially since I'm seeing a lot of more reliance on legal tech handling that type of stuff. Where it's like, okay, if the tech can handle this, then you can just bring me in for this substantive task. And that uh, saves the client time and money, it saves the attorney time and money and it, it, it works out. So dabbling around a little bit right

Speaker A: now, no, I love the flat fee models and it's so funny because I used to like if you, somebody could sound bite that and be like, I contradict myself because two, three years ago, two years ago even I was like, avoid flat fee, just avoid it. It's too hard. But because I think that this industry is evolving so much where like you said, attorneys understand paralegals in business. It's not just what freelance paralegals do. Are they for the general public, are they practicing upl? Are they for me? I don't get it how you know all these things to now. It's common. I mean you see it all over LinkedIn, paralegals in business for themselves and, and creating authority around it. Where now attorneys can identify professional process companies, professional service companies that they can leverage for very specific high level tasks on a flat fee basis. And like you said, tech is really taking, it's not taking anybody's job but it's, it's putting a stronger emphasis on humans needing to really find their specialty and really claim their true highest value. Which isn't, that's a celebration moment because that's where paralegals are going to get out of that stuff that dilutes our value and keeps us low, low paid to. Now we get to just focus in to our lane zone of genius. And the flat fee is just, it's, it almost becomes the no brainer for the attorney because it's so predictable. Like it is so predictable for them. I know exactly what I'm getting for this exact amount of money. And um, so it's just selling a little bit better. I actually had A paralegal I was consulting with on structuring around flat fee and one of her clients actually pushed to pay her old package or her newer package is like, flat fee, higher cost. Where she's like, I can section these out because not all of your cases need the full discovery, right? They don't need the full start to finish discovery. She's like, I can section out per case and give you the. He's like, no, I want, I just want the full thing. I'll just. She's like, you're paying me more. I'm trying to save you money. And he's like, I don't care. This is predictable for me. I just want to pay that on all my cases. It's like, it's a psychology thing for attorneys. So I'm really getting more interested in the flat fee model. It just doesn't, it doesn't work well when you haven't identified your lane then your zone. And sometimes that does come later as you're evolving in your business and you're figuring out, you know, what, what are the things you really love to do and what's become predictable client to client to client. Now it's like, let's go flat fee. Um, so I love that for you. That's awesome. I wanted to pick your brain because I see you all over my LinkedIn feed, all over it with speaking engagements and your videos and your authority posts. And that is one of the biggest things that paralegal starting businesses are like, I know I need to go to LinkedIn. Every paralegal out there I've talked to LinkedIn is there is their home base for networking, getting visibility, authority clients, the works. And so. But they just get so stuck in their own head about how do I go out there and post authority content when I have all this imposter syndrome or why would an attorney want to hear what I have to say about practicing personal injury better than what they already know? And I say that because I also felt that way. I'm like, what attorney is going to want to hear me tell them how to properly, you know, organize a pre litigation case? You know, they are the experts, I'm the paralegal. That just helps them. Right. And so I watched you just, you just speak your truth. You speak what you know. You have really branded yourself in the criminal space. So talk to me about like your evolution of LinkedIn and when there was that tipping point when you started posting video or starting getting more confidence and I'm assuming your, your LinkedIn following and connections are Growing as a result.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, man, I have to reflect a little bit because I definitely remember taking your general course, which touched on the social media. And I think you kind of got me started with, uh, like a 30 day LinkedIn challenge. So it got me going with like, okay, regular posting. Here's some ideas as kind of like a jump start because, yeah, initially I was like, I don't know. And this was before the huge age of AI, by the way. Now you can plug in anything and do AI something. But, um, I prefer a little bit more organic still. Um, so I think once I got used to that rhythm of finding how often to post kind of with your challenge and some ideas, I'm like, okay, I think I can take this a step further. Uh, shortly after that, I also hired a virtual assistant because as we all know, content just takes a lot of time. And I've been able to offset her helping me with my LinkedIn posts and my YouTube stuff, where it's not just me because we're running a business on top of posting content. So that's been a game changer for me just delegating to her, hey, here's what I think the post should be. Draft something. And she's amazing, she's insane. And she'll draft it and have my logo and branding. And I'm like, okay, awesome. So that's taken a lot off my plate. As for the building authority and just the content in general, I think, and that's a hard question because I, man, it really is just inspirational. Like, just what I see where I'm like, I think people should know this and it's not always what I think attorneys should know too. Like, I don't really get into the mindset of, oh, what do criminal attorneys need to hear? It's just kind of more a bit of an entertainment factor and an informative factor. So it's like, okay, I think this is general knowledge that paralegals, criminal paralegals, other legal professionals should know. And if my ideal audience happens to see it, great. Um, but I, I don't think I focus too much on just my ideal audience. It's just more like getting it out there and showing the authority. Kind of like you were talking about, where it's like, as long as you're bringing value and as long as you're bringing, um, you know, information in a way that sets you apart, uh, that's kind of what I strive for. But it took me a long time to find my rhythm where it's like, okay, I'm gonna post four days a week and then I'm gonna do this on YouTube and I'm gonna do this on my website. Like, that's just trial and error, as we all know, uh, being in business. So.

Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah, it is, it's hard to, to balance all of them. I've really had to even myself because I, there are things I prefer. Like, for instance, I prefer TikTok because I'm a, I'm an addict of Tick Tock personally. So I just, I'm always on Tick Tock. I prefer it, but I know that that's not really where I should be spending my time. Um, you know, don't get me wrong, I get traffic from TikTok, and I have a point to all this. But focusing on one platform and making content for that platform and then you can distribute it to others, um, but positioning it to perform well on one platform because every single platform has different algorithm, rules and guidelines, if you will, to actually get reach. And they are, they're just so different. Like LinkedIn is so much different than TikTok is so much different than Instagram, than Facebook. Well, Instagram and Facebook are the same. But all to say, like, what I have learned by honing in specifically on LinkedIn is, first of all, that platform, what does really well is, like you said, informative content. And if it can be entertaining, you're going to increase your views, you're going to increase your engagement time or your watch time, because it's entertaining. But so that's, that's kind of LinkedIn's guideline is it needs to be helpful. It's not just the what, it's the how. It's the how you, you know, turn everything into a how to some degree. But what I've seen you do really well is, and, and this is where I think paralegals get stuck, and I myself got stuck, is you don't need to make informative content for your ideal audience. If you're posting a promotional post, yeah, it needs to reach who you're. You're selling your services to. Um, it needs to speak to them. But when you're building authority and personal brand and visibility, it just needs to be what, you know, that re. Establishes your expertise. So saying that I got sick of marketing, you know, to attorneys, I didn't get sick of it, but I was starting to find a real passion for my paralegal work. Um, and this was even, this was before I actually sold my business. And I just said, whatever, I'm just gonna make most 99% of my posts informative for paralegals about the industry that I'm in and organically increased my client acquisition because attorneys were starting to see me as an authority in working with fractional paralegals. Like, that became my brand, even to attorneys. So I see you posting, you know, whether that's two paralegals or just to the general nonprofits, to human beings that need to learn a little bit about criminal. You consistently repeating it over and over again. You are the criminal paralegal guru. Like, that's the brand you're building. And so that's. That's a really good point that you made that it's not. And maybe I stress that too much to, to paralegals and get them all in their heads of. You don't always need to be like, talking to your North Star client, but thinking about, you know, where can you, um, specialize. And I had a paralegal in the society that recently found her rhythm by just, you know, finding that passion for workers compensation and compassionate representation. And that's her zone. But through that, she's getting speaking gigs, she's building more authority and just general, more visibility. And attorneys are watching. They're not big engagers. I've always noticed that, um, they don't engage as much as we would think they do, but they're watching, so they're agreeing. And if a criminal attorney keeps coming up against your stuff, even if they don't listen to your video fully or need that information, they know you know what you're talking about. Um, they know you are branded. So, Corinne, what does your. You said you had a va, um, helping you with social media. That's awesome. Because that's the other thing that sucks about trying to be on all platforms is every platform will, uh, penalize you, if you will, for using automation tools. None of them like it. In fact, LinkedIn bans it. And if they find out, they can remove your account. Right. So you try to do the post to everywhere with one click. Doesn't work. Like, it all goes into the algorithm abyss. So you have the VA for that. That's awesome that you use that. What is it just you doing the paralegal work in your business? And what if not, where do you. What. What are your plans for long term?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I want to stress this aspect of the business because I first started completely solo, like, no VA nobo. And I thought I was content with that. I've always had trouble delegating and letting go and being a bit of a control freak. But I've chilled out over the years and just realized with the need that I can't do it all. So to everyone out there that is taking any of Jaclyn's courses, please listen to her when she says, if you want your business to grow, think about, like, where you want to be down the line and have your business grow with you. I was too stubborn and was like, I'm just going to be solo this whole time. Now, three years later, I have two subcontractors in addition to my IVAs, so I'm doing and exploring more of a team model. But that has come with, like, changing systems and, you know, billing, case management, you know, communication with clients. So, um, yeah, I've just gotten so big and so much work where I'm like, I really just can't do it all. And I'm hoping to move into more of the operator role where I can offset most of the work to my subcontractors. But I'm still reviewing what they're doing before they get to my attorney clients. That's something that I'm not quite ready to let go of that yet. Um, but that's another reason why I kind of want to niche down my services too, where it's like, my subcontractors know what type of work they're getting instead of, oh, draft this random thing and do this and do that, Like, I can do that, but that's just not, that doesn't make sense for a team model. So, yes, I've been growing, I've been transitioning, and it's definitely been, uh, quite a learning curve. A lot longer of an adjustment versus, like you say, if you just go in, you know, being willing to be flexible and think about that adjustment. Um, but I'm, I'm loving it. I didn't think I could get to this point where I could trust people, delegate, and be able to see my business grow in this way. Like, I, I, I just had no idea. So it's been awesome.

Speaker A: No, that's amazing. That's so good to hear that you're, you're going to keep going because I, I see big things for, for you with your branding and I mean, gosh, you went international, now you're speaking out in Canada to paralegals out there about your business work and that, that's just amazing. And yeah, and it's such a delicate thing because I, that is one thing all of us have in common. I just think back to Brandy, Heather, Anthony, Leah, uh, like, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast in the Last two months, three months have said the exact same thing. I did not think that it would have worked out this well for me and that I would have found the success that I do. To even start thinking about going beyond myself or thinking that that would be something I would love. And. And it's hard because it's like, I didn't either. I just needed money. I was like, I don't want my house to get foreclosed on. Like, just give me a client. I'll take anything. Like you said the upwork crap. You know, just give me anything. I want to get my feet on the ground. And then it happens faster than we think. And then we're like, oh, crap. Now I feel stuck in a business that I maybe don't like. And obviously that's not. Doesn't sound like that happened to you. But to be at least somewhat thoughtful about the direction you eventually could see yourself taking it, and just imagine for a second that failing wasn't an option. Where do you actually want to go? And I'm not saying that you have to create 500k, $1,000,000 scalable systems on day one, but start leaning towards and thinking that way as your clientele grows. Because it's so funny. And I feel like the universe just knows what I'm gonna. And I've said this on so many podcasts because I just did a live Facebook while I was getting ready for this interview, because that was top of my mind is just thinking, like, at least think if I could not fail and in six months, I had the opportunity to manage 10 clients, and it was way beyond myself, what is that going to look like? How am I going to make it happen? And if you never. If you get to that point and you realize, no, I really don't want to scale beyond myself, Whatever. You just have a stronger business anyway as a result of planning for that type of scalability, um, because systems win every time. So what types of case management systems or business operations systems you use? Like, what's your kind of favorite stuff in your paralegal business to manage your clients, your onboarding, all of those things?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Usually, of course, my clients will integrate me into whatever their case management system is, but that's, you know, not all inclusive. And now that I have subcontractors, I, you know, I don't always integrate them. I'm still kind of the operator, like I said. So for my business, um, I use Microsoft 365 because we all need Word, we all need stuff. And I'm. I'm Very big on integration. I don't like to jump from different platforms every day. It, it just stresses me out, it makes me angry. So I use um, Planner for task management, obviously OneDrive for document management and SharePoint. I create a SharePoint page for each of my clients. Yep, I'm going to shout out Misty M. Murray real quick because I was just gonna say like I took one of her courses and I'm like this is so helpful. It makes the most sense. So I took a course from Misty Murray and pretty much implemented that. Um, what else do I use? So planner, SharePoint, OneDrive, obviously, outlook, calendaring, but it's all interconnected and you can give your clients access to your task management and your documents too if they want to see what you're working on. Usually my clients don't have time for that. They're like, just send me when it's done. Um, but that's what I use for the business side. And then I'm also integrating all of my Microsoft products into my content case management system which is a new system that I just got into. It's called Leverage Grow. And it's really great because I'm not only growing out my services but my digital products. Like I just launched a criminal defense resource library and that has, you know, free infographics, checklists, paid courses, products. So in order to manage that Microsoft 365 just doesn't quite cut it. Um, but this platform still integrates everything so it's still a one stop shop where I can see all the Microsoft stuff and all the data and analytics from my uh, content and my digital products. Um, so I know not everybody's into digital products. I know most paralegals or freelancers are more services but if anyone is interested in diving into that, this has been nice. Um, instead of trying to navigate kind of hopping around a bunch of different digital uh, platforms because it's just all inclusive. It has its own AI, it has its own social planner. It's really been a game changer. Uh, so those are my two main ones.

Speaker A: That's amazing. I didn't realize you had digital products. Um, I will be sure to link them for paralegals that may need some extra resources and stuff that you offer. That's awesome. And further, that is, I know a lot of paralegals don't have courses or they don't start that route, but I'm telling you, like adding a product line like that, even if it's low lift, a freebie and then a self paced course like Let it Sell on autopilot. You don't have to put a ton of time into it. But if a paralegal has that drive or that knowledge, it further accentuates your authority in your niche by you're the person. Not only. You're not just a criminal paralegal, you're teaching other criminal paralegals out there. So it's like, do you want the master? Because that's what I am. Um, you know, demonstrating that I am. And I just had other paralegal reach out to me today asking for, do you know any paralegal that does a personal injury? Just like, crash course, start to finish crash course. Um, somebody in my team needs to just understand how personal injury operates. Like, we need more paralegals out there creating resources from the mouth of the paralegal. I can't tell you how many times I've been pitched. No hate to them, but by these general courses, you know, like, we have a legal arm and it's just regurgitated shit. I'm sorry. But really, that's what it is, is just regurgitation. And they get people to take them, um, for whatever reason. Right. Like, we need more paralegal educators out there because.

Speaker B: Agreed.

Speaker A: That's awesome. So that's so cool. And I'll make sure that, you know, obviously I'm going to link up your, your paralegal, uh, website and your services, but also making a. Wanting to make that mention there because constantly a paralegal is reaching out to me looking for how do we grow in this practice area or this or that. So I will definitely link that up. That's awesome.

Speaker B: Awesome.

Speaker A: Okay, Corinne, this is one. Before we end here, the one thing I put everybody on the spot for, the paralegal that might be out there right now consuming information, if they're on my podcast and haven't taken my course or haven't gone to the society or haven't started a business. A lot of them have already started businesses, but many are just lingering and they're just gathering information, thinking about starting a paralegal business. What would you say to that paralegal that maybe has sat on this idea? It was a flicker of a thought a couple months, few months ago, and they're like, I just don't think I can do it. I don't think I have the, the. The grit. I don't think I have the. What's the right word? Confidence, or I don't think I'll be successful. What would you say to that paralegal that just won't get their button gear and start,

Speaker B: uh, I would say we all started exactly where you are. We all realize that you're never going to be 100% ready before you dive in and to just do it. You will learn so much on your journey than just sitting on the sidelines and thinking about it and learning. And that's all very important, you know, learning, getting information before you jump in. But you're not going to learn and get the confidence until you do it. I think you've said this before, Jacqueline, where it's like action first, confidence later. It's just kind of how it works starting, um, a business. So if you've already thought about it for a while and have taken the time to get the information, I would say you're already ahead too, because some of us, like me, like, I, I didn't have courses initially. I was just on upwork, dude, who knows what I was doing back in the day and now three years later here, and you just, you figure it out. But especially if they're on your platform and have your. And you know, are willing to take your courses and follow your model, which obviously works, um, you'll just, you really, you just got to trust yourself. That's what it comes down to. At the end of the day. Do you trust yourself or not? Are you going to take a chance on yourself or not? And everything else is going to just fall into place eventually.

Speaker A: I love that. That's such great advice and I'm glad you re reestablished that. Like, we all started there. Like, I have all these courses and I've, uh, I branding myself here. And this is my second business where I'm all in on coaching. And I sound, um, like I had everything always figured out that I was just born with the knowledge. I got the knowledge by failing and trying and failing and trying and having a difficult client and having a sticky, low cash flow month and all the things like, yeah, it's built before you believe in yourself is really what happens. Because it's getting through those times that gives you that added confidence and then you run with it. And I, uh, that's. That's such good. That's such good advice. And, and I've always said, too, I'm 100 confident. Maybe this is bad marketing on my part. I've always said this. Every paralegal out there, if they really sit down, take a leap of faith, bet on themselves, right? It's funny how we bet so easily, hand over our faith into employers and betting on their success before we'll ever bet on Our own. But any paralegal that just bets on themselves and tries, you will find success with or without me. Like, you will figure it out. The difference is my programs, like, gives you the support and the not alone and gets you there faster. Whatever.

Speaker B: Get there quicker. Yeah, right.

Speaker A: It's the. And like, I just had somebody comment on one of my things, like, her free content is. Or her content's all paywalled, and I'm like, wow, how awful of me to have a 9.99amonth membership to keep people going forward. Um, like, awful. But it's like. But that's the truth. Like, you can take all this information and piecemeal it together and hear how other paralegals are doing it and find your own path. You'll get there faster. But I wanted to say that because I think paralegals just don't realize that they have everything inside of them already. To be successful, you just need to bet on yourself. So do that. And that was. That was great advice. All right, Corinne. Well, I'm going to link, um, up Corinne below in. In the description, her LinkedIn. Definitely go follow her on LinkedIn. You're a great example of a paralegal not being in their own head, getting amazing content out there consistently, authoritatively, but just norm, like, authentically. It's not, you know, posing or anything like that. You just. You do a great job. I get excited to see you on my. On my feet every day. So, um, I will link everything up below. Make sure to go follow Kurt Corinne for that inspiration and check out her digital course and resources in the criminal law space if you're wanting to sharpen your skills there. Um, Corinne, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you.

Speaker B: Thank you, Jacqueline. This was so much fun. I really appreciate it. And have a good day, everybody.