Exploring Saudi Arabia’s Tech Future: Insights from Outlier Ventures’ FutureSpark Accelerator

Speaker A: Foreign. How are you? Thank you for joining today. We're here to really, you know, welcome you to the Riyadh launch of the Outlier accelerator. We're calling it Future Spark Basecamp. And we're here today to really celebrate the products of many, many months of preparation that got put together by a lot, a lot, a lot of people. Uh, in collaboration with NTTP, we're here to kick off their new and exciting Web3 accelerator program. And it's tailored to provide a unique platform for the founders to really realize their vision. My name is Salua Radhui. I'm the entrepreneur in residence for Ovi, and I founded a Web3 startup three years ago. It was called Nukta. And today Nukta is really in this unique position to really help startups expand into the Saudi region when it comes to the Web3 ecosystem. And I'm personally excited because I'm happy to see people who are actually enabling the ecosystem, which is why this conversation is very close to my heart. So welcome Stefan, Devin and Bunder. We look forward to learning from your valuable insights onto this program and the region and the opportunities that will really be created from this partnership. So maybe we can start with Stefan and Quick and Drew, and we can go all around.

Speaker B: Thanks, Silva. Hello, I'm Stefan Appel, CEO and founding partner of Outlier Ventures.

Speaker C: I'm Devon, uh, operations manager for cic. Captains of innovation.

Speaker D: Uh, Ben. Derek Tunisi. I am local, uh, director for Ally Ventures, as well as founder of Refine, a cross chain, uh, Defi Channel.

Speaker A: Fantastic. So you can tell you have different stakeholder groups, different divisions, and it all coming together in one nice place to really have a, uh, impact on the web3 space. So maybe I can kick off with you, Stefan, and ask you, you've been doing this for years. You've seen it all around the world. You understand how the Web3 ecosystem works. Why Saudi? Why now? Why are you in this room?

Speaker B: It's a very good question. And Salva, thank you very much for asking this. I think there are a couple of themes. One is the wider region. Let's talk about this first. Uh, it's uniquely positioned the MENA region between, um, Europe and Asia. A cross point where people meet, where innovation happens. A lot of, uh, internationally flexible innovators, entrepreneurs and developers are moving to this region and are attracted to this region. There are a few reasons for this. Um, one of them is, um, the keen interest in technology and in driving technological adoption. Um, and the second one is, um, our incentives, uh, to move here of Course, um, and then the benefits of that whole ecosystem, you know, people living and working together so close to each other is resulting in a lot of great benefits and partnerships uh, that are happening now. The ksa, ah particularly and we are very proud to be here and launch this uh, program um, this week. Uh, it has been an amazing journey so far and it was great. We studied the KSA prior to coming here and came across the Vision 2030 and have seen it and um, the strong or very high ambitions the kingdom has um, for its population and its economy and in particular that drive towards new technologies and attracting uh, founders and high skilled technology ecosystems was uh, a great um, opportunity for us. And when coming here for the very first time about a year ago, we found that the doors were open for us, we could engage into conversations. We started at the Web3 summit a year ago in Four Seasons Hotel and from there one conversation led to uh, the next. And now within just a period of 12 months, we've not just only signed the partnership with NTDP who um, welcomed us very much and are supporting us with this program, uh, um, but also recruited and launched this first cohorts. And I think you know doing this uh, within a period of 12 months is a great achievement and we are very, very proud of you know, having uh, gotten this program rolled out and uh, being able to contribute to the achievement of Vision 2030.

Speaker A: Yeah, congratulations. I think with the high friction that comes from this industry it's you're truly an enabler because you're breaking that barrier and you're starting it right for everyone else to follow through. So you're literally easing the way for everyone else. Congratulations. Maybe you could give us a highlight of you know, you've been looking at the industry as a whole, you have, you already have experience in the space. What are industries that are looking particularly exciting to you in Saudi region?

Speaker D: Yeah, sure. So obviously I'm quite biased towards the Web3 industry, uh, given my participation in particular in the last four years. Because I really look at uh, Web3 and blockchain based technologies as an underlying innovation tool for every sector. So whether it's from manufacturing to healthcare to Arda to anything. So I really look at that as an enabler, particularly if you look at things like AI. So there's so much hype around AI, but there's so much infrastructure required to make AI reach its full potential, whether it's through decentralized access to data or access to data in a way that preserves the privacy of the end user, whether it's using distributed cloud networks in order to leverage different GPU CPU powers. So uh, I really look at kind of web3 personally, uh, as an underlying enabler for a lot of these. Uh, outside of that again, I think AI is one of the manufacturing is so quite huge and I think a lot of technology surrounding for example E government, uh, blockchain can play a role that as well as other uh, enabling kind uh, of technology sector. And obviously a big one is fintech, you know, crypto. Hopefully the future will be a big part of that, particularly with recent efforts, uh, government efforts when it comes to open banking, uh, and different fintech initiatives. Because then I think foundationally if Saudi Arabia, when Saudi Arabia reaches its 2030 targets and beyond, it will and must become a financial powerhouse. And financial innovation has to play a role in that.

Speaker A: And I feel like you can already start seeing all the worst till a couple of years away. Most of the targets have already been established. And it's more exciting because it's paving a way for a whole new line of industries to come into play. And to be honest, growing up in Saudi I never thought like at, I'm not going to say my age on the air, but in my 20s, I did not expect that we would be having a blockchain conversation so freely in Riyadh with enablers from all around the world. So I guess we're living the growth right at the steep, right?

Speaker D: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Devin, I'm actually going to come to you because we talked about the industries, we talked about why we have enablers like ovcoming. But what's the role of cic and maybe you can give us a high level on what CIC does.

Speaker C: Yeah. So starting with CIC founded 25 years ago and has been really focused on building centers, uh, or these ecosystems, uh, across the world. Right now we have the largest startup kind of uh, uh, collections in five different countries across the globe. So the U.S. uh, Japan, Germany and the Netherlands. Uh, we have 10,000 different companies that called our uh, space home and have raised $17 billion in venture capital across all of those entities. Uh, and so it's an exciting market to kind of look at. I think, uh, as far as Captain's motivation goes, we're the professional service arms were the ones that through that very lived experience, helping to build these ecosystems, uh, work with governments and academic institutions and other corporates to kind of help plan and strategize around this. And uh, you don't often see the kind of full push behind this that you see with the Vision 2030 um, so it's exciting to be in a place where there is already a lot of kind of uh, consensus and uh, cooperation from broad institutions and governments. And so we have a couple of partners here in the region, um, that we've been working with programming and helping them to think about how they can best serve and um, build an ecosystem.

Speaker A: I think that the element of value exchange is so important especially considering the four stakeholders on this table and the expertise that comes not just in but out as well. That exchange is so crucial for a successful outcome to anything that we do. And maybe Stephan, I'll come to you and ask you when you. Generally your program is like remote, it's online, the specific program is different, it's more hands on. Why. So what's the pro of it and why did you have that change?

Speaker B: Absolutely right. But we did start originally with uh, in person programs in London. During the first years we had all the founders in our offices there and that's know our roots for the first years of outlier ventures. And uh, I might not have mentioned yet but uh, we have a 10 year history already and that is as long as the term Web3 exists. So since 2014 we've been operating and now have this large portfolio of 350 projects um, that makes us the globally leading accelerator in this space. Um, now when looking at Riyadh, uh, we uh, saw that you know the huge potential uh here of the country, the Kingdom, um, with the various developments and the various initiatives and bringing together the power that a founder receives and the support from working with the world's leading accelerator, combined with the opportunities and actual business implementation opportunities here the country and the different initiatives are uh, offering to the founders. It's a perfect opportunity to run uh, this cohort in person. And we've received a uh, record number of applications for this cohort. There were about more than 500 projects that were interested in potentially joining. And we've selected the top 2% out of those applicants, uh, to join and be here for the entire duration of the three months program, at least on the ground. And uh, hopefully many of those will then obviously stay thereafter. It's interesting to mention that the cohort is a combination of teams that are from uh, the Kingdom and also international teams that have relocated here. About half uh, of the teams in the cohort have at least one founding team member that uh, is from the Kingdom, um, and we are very honored to be able to help the growth of this ecosystem. There is an ecosystem here for Web3. It is rapidly growing and uh, it's changing very, very fast. And uh, we are hoping that with this cohort and those founders and those potentially or likely one day leading world, globally leading companies that are coming out of these programs, uh, we can contribute to achieve the Vision 2030.

Speaker A: I uh, have absolutely no doubt that you will. To be honest, if you think about it, you're actually vetting and doing all the hard work for whether it's VCs or whether it's venture partners or family offices in the region who don't necessarily have enough knowledge base. You're like, you're doing the due diligence for them and you're putting your stamp of approval, giving it to them on a silver platter because you have the expertise whilst helping them hit their vision 2030 KPI. So I think that's fantastic, to be honest. Binder, actually on that note, how would you say that partnering with an accelerator like OV in the region is so crucial to really make something like this be a successful?

Speaker D: I think it's really important and I personally was eager to help and support um, Stefan OV because of their commitment to saud. I think it takes a lot of courage and a lot of uh, initiative to come here and say let's come on the ground, let's do it. And I think innovation often runs faster than regulation. And so I think a lot of people in the absence of regulation don't really know what to do, can't manage their growth and their, their, their ideas. So I think OBI coming in on the ground and trying to create that path for uh, for these projects is really amazing. Uh, and I'm, and I'm really proud to be part of it. And I think uh, the, the Web3 industry, it's, it's hypergrowth. Right? Things change by the day, by the minute. And you know, with their hundreds of portfolio companies and their 10 years plus exposure being the best, being the biggest um, venture studio in the game, I think they provide that 10 years experience and will kind of leapfrog Saudi Arabia towards uh, the future of this innovative product. As regulation as everything else catches up

Speaker A: on point, especially when it comes to like keeping up the pace, it's so crucial that you're up that version in the middle. And on that note of pace, maybe you can give me an insight on cic. So you see trends, you see the regulations and you play that bridge in the middle where you have to like slow down here, go faster here. How would you explain your role in the middle of all that madness?

Speaker C: Yeah, so uh, the Governance is part of the thing that we tend to think about a lot here. You need to build a consensus and then to deploy um, regulations. It's really important because that's kind of the support the government's uh, going to give. Um, so we leverage 10 to 20 years uh, of innovation districts being uh, the way that ecosystems are built and these are kind of the holistic ways that you bring people on board. So we've seen these models work before, we know how to do it. And so it's great to come here and be able to say that this is the several different ways to build consensus between entities and to get everybody on board and to figure out how it can push and connect um, people and get them to understand what is happening and how they can play a part in it.

Speaker A: And I think it's also important for us to take a step back because we're so in the bubble of it. I think my parents still don't know what I do and I think I've stopped trying to explain what I do. I just given up at this point. And Stephane, maybe you could tell us high level um, you're so in the midst of it. You've been doing it for all these years. I'm sure most people when you first started had no idea what you were doing. I doubt most people still do. But, but looking at high growth markets today, how do you actually like map your vision and what, what has been, if there was like, I don't want to say a success equation but things that have worked in high growth markets that are now being reflected onto Saudi would be great for us to hear.

Speaker B: Yes, we've noticed over the past years that we receive a lot of applications from founders from high growth markets or previously maybe emerging markets, um, that applied for our programs since we went virtual. So since COVID we've run all these programs virtual and this made us and our programs relev for founders all across the world. They didn't have to spend the money anymore to travel to London to come to be in our offices. They could participate in these programs from where they were living and the money that we are investing into these projects therefore lasts much longer. They don't have to spend this on travel and accommodation costs. What we noticed is there are several aspects that kind of uh, are um, similar across these different high growth markets. Typically all of these uh, countries and regions um, have um, relatively young and tech savvy population. Um, people are often or increasingly nowadays have access to internationally competing education as well. Um, and they try to, they're very entrepreneurial and very committed and driven and they want to achieve something. They want to change the world. And previously there was a bit difficult to uh, potentially do that from out of a high growth market. Nowadays um, with Web3 in particular, Web3 offers you immediately a global stage, right? If you have a new solution or a product idea or technological innovation, if that is relevant for Web3, it's relevant globally. And with that working together with an accelerator like us that can give a global stage also two founders that have a globally relevant solution to other investors that might be sitting on the west coast or in London or somewhere else across the world, um, to then showcase these startups after the work we've been doing with them, to those follow on investors and to those uh, m also leading ecosystem players that we are so well connected to and giving them the exposure, helping them with these connections um, really enables them to be uh, to compete at the global scale immediately. And this is why we are so excited in working with founders from growth markets. The program here in, in Riyadh is now the second program we are launching in such a market. We already have a program running for Latin America and we are looking at further markets uh, with sometimes similar, you know, similar setups. We are looking at Turkey, looking at India, looking at Southeast Asia. There's so many people, half the globe, you know, that is trying to find relevance and compete via. And Web3 offers them uh, this opportunity.

Speaker A: From that point of relevance and competition. I'm going to put you on the spot and say this is one of the first programs that is now back online. Why should people fly into Saudi? Why should these founders come all the way? And it's very unweb3 like uh, to want to be in a physical position and a very high opportunity cost.

Speaker D: Why do you as a Saudi? I'm a huge believer in Saudi Arabia and its growth opportunity. I also think it's probably one of the most exciting places to be in the world right now. I think for the last, you know we both grew up in a uh, in a different Saudi Arabia and the growth we've seen in the last 10 years is unparalleled. I mean you know people are going to write books about uh, how Saudi Arabia. They probably already are writing books about how Saudi Arabia has grown because you have you know, a combination of as Stefan mentioned, ah, young, savvy population. I think it's 60% under 30. Yeah, uh, there's like an average of 2.2 phones per person I think here or something like that. And you have a government willing to spend, willing to drive policy towards growth and innovation, really kind of breaking down a lot of barriers that we used to have and really focusing on growth. And um, I think that particularly now in the winter season when the weather is a bit better with the cohort starting, I think it's no better place to be as opposed to cold rain Europe from that perspective. And then I think there's a lot of, uh, brain power and manpower that comes here during these times now, October, uh, till the beginning of next year, that kind of will support this ecosystem. Maybe you can support with funding and support with uh, other aspects. So really exciting. It's a great community, great leadership and intended to drive this kind of innovation forward.

Speaker A: And I think the people who fly into the region also get the chance to be a change maker. It's just next where it's very rare that you find the country that's functioning like a startup, but it's actually loaded. I don't know if I can say this online. Yeah, it is. So, you know, you have that perfect match of a perfect equation of there is no, no room for you to not succeed. You have the support, you have the talent, you have the money, and you have so many opportunities that are open for people to solve for and you're just constantly running. So it's just, it makes you want to just be part of it. And I think, you know, the founders need a specific kind of support as well. Maybe I'll come to you, Devin, on that point. Like, how would you suggest the ideal form of support that CIC can do? What is the normal, uh, mandate that you guys usually go through, things that you've been through? And we know how coworking spaces, accelerators, there's the average model and then I really want to know the juice. How are you really helping founders?

Speaker C: Yeah. So, uh, CSC and CSE captains innovation and the input there is often programming. Right. It's what can you actually do to support these folks to build out their understanding of how to run a business? You know, talking about accelerators specifically, but also how can you develop talent? Right. And there are a lot of other kind of pieces to building a successful business beyond just what the founders are. And you know, talent is huge. And we find this in a lot of, um, areas where maybe uh, manufacturing was big and they make this intentional shift towards redefining what kind of talents that they um, they are known for. So programming is huge, uh, any kind of services that kind of help people to focus on their dream. Right. What the idea is, and so, you know, the coworking spaces are fantastic because it allows you to get in and not have to worry about all of the little minutiae of day to day, how to actually do the work. You just get to do the work. And then obviously, whatever kind of funding bevotes, how can we get these people to again, focus on helping get everything else out of the way, making sure that they have enough capital to continue three months through a program or four months after program, or whatever timeline they need to keep moving.

Speaker A: It's an interesting overlap though. You see, he's dealing with these very, uh, the parallels happen so smoothly, but also everyone has a very clear role which is so crucial. And I think even when you look at, if you map your stakeholders, right, and you look at private and you look at public and you look at the founders, everyone is moving in parallel lines, which is beautiful. But I think as an as maybe Stephane, you can uh, advise on entities who are looking to move into the region. Right? You broke the code, you figured out how to get in. You spoke to public and private and you've launched an accelerator and it's been less than 11 months and that's unheard of, to be honest. Like you're working with the Ministry of Investment and Tech and NTP and so many stakeholders come into the, into the pool. How would you advise and how would you say that experience was between this whole madness?

Speaker B: Not just to, uh, repeat. I mean we, from the beginning, from coming here, you know, we were honored to, to find open doors and um, you know, obviously when you come with a good story and having been in Web3 for now 10 years and then, you know, being the world's largest accelerator resonates very well here. And it so aligns with the uh, overall vision to, you know, grow the tech ecosystem, the wider general tech ecosystem and also web3in. And um, you know, after, after meeting various uh, partners, um, you know, we decided, yes, let's, let's go ahead, let's launch uh, a cohort, an accelerator in the kingdom. And you know, luckily we came across NTTP as well, who helped us very much as part of the Ministry of Communications and Information Technology. And um, you know, the great thing is that this initiative that started about six to nine months ago, you know, resulted in or got a lot of traction and attention not just in the country, but also internationally. And uh, so as an example, like in the country now, there are various, you know, other parties and partners that, you know, we are talking to and that are interested in Joining this uh, initiative and you know, not just having this accelerator but maybe other accelerators or more accelerators in the future and specifically for Web3 to really make a difference. To make a difference. And um, this gives an opportunity to the kingdom to also later showcase to the world, you know, the innovation that can come from the kingdom and can be rolled out globally later and make the kingdom this, this hub, the center, uh, you know for innovation for technology but also it contributes to making it this financial center. Um, that is very much part of the vision that we are very honored to be able to help contribute to this. And I'm looking forward when some of the future Global champions of Web3 will be able to say they've come from Saudi and were accelerated by outlier Vegas here. And that would be an amazing outcome.

Speaker A: Definitely. It's exciting to think about uh, just in a few years, it doesn't even have to be 10 years from now. It could be a few years and at the pace that Saudi is growing is very likely. But maybe Benthit, I can come to you and talk about actual web3 appetite. We read the PR, we watch the videos and I think it's very crucial for the listener to also know what the web3 appetite is looking like. What are exciting things, not just industries, but how is actually government appetite regulators, how are they looking at it? Is it something exciting?

Speaker D: Yeah, I think look, so I spent the better part of the last two and a half years with Binance, um, as their head of the savvy market and part of my mind that it was to engage with the regulators. And I think look on the user side, I mean if you look at analysis and this year uh, Saudi is the fastest growing menu country in terms of crypto doctrine. Last year was the fastest growing country in the world. So that's just looking at crypto market. You're talking about crypto adjacent. What we do some things whether it's gaming or other blockchain based technologies, um, I think on the government I think there's a lot of initiatives to support innovation. Uh, but as I mentioned before I think innovation is always kind of ahead. I think there is appetite to adopt and adapt uh, to this new technology. So I think a lot of what OV is doing here is developing that foundation, uh, of know how you uh, know it doesn't, you know it doesn't have to be necessarily crypto with web3 is a big ecosystem. Right. And I think um, supporting um, that kind of ecosystem here will bring about that kind of growth. Different sectors also gaming is important. I think one of the most successful strategies Saudi Amy will have is a gaming strategy. I think the idea of digital ownership, uh, in gaming that Web3 pushes forward will also help bring about the industry and most of the world is trying to figure out how to make it into space because it's like how you regulate the Internet. It's not easy. It's cross border. So constant engagement. We've seen at TTB support of all the different uh, uh, kind of ecosystem players and with that support there's kind of shared learning and growth together. And I'm bullish about the future for sure.

Speaker A: It's definitely exciting to see not just people, there's a lot of engagement. You think that it's more of a hush hush but you come and you write about these things and so people ask us so many questions and who should we speak to and how can we get in? And to be honest, it makes my heart happy because as somebody who's looking into the crypto scene, they're like oh no, you know, it's no, we don't know how to get in. But there's so much hunger that makes it so much more worthwhile. And to, for us to wake up every day in the morning and try to do something about it, it's just, it's just one more reason to you know, like do this. It's awesome. I think we covered like many different realms of the whole business element of it and I can I voice, I think I'm the one representing founders as well as you on less front and like I want to advocate on how difficult it is on sometimes to really take that leap of faith and a huge chunk of that is okay, do I pack my bags and move to an unknown country where I have never been, who's still picking up and I don't know anyone there. So maybe I want to talk about like you know, the fun elements or the exciting elements on a non business realm that would make founders want to sign up to the next cohort or even have like venture partners set up uh, elements for their internal companies like why should they do this and why now and why?

Speaker D: Sure. So as a founder, maybe a couple years behind you in terms of being a founder, I definitely appreciate the stress and all the things that go through your mind and all the feelings that you might have going through it. And I think it is maybe a tough decision to pack your bag to go but I also think it's quite liberating because on a personal level I think when you go somewhere to do one thing and nothing else matters. It's really kind of comforting. And, and I think coming to a place like Saudi, with all the opportunities and potential here is really exciting. And you know, here the government, there's literally a program called the Quality of Life program.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker D: Uh, which tries to improve the quality of people and it's funded by the government, it's supported. So you have all the biggest boxing matches, the football matches, you have all kinds of entertainment shows, opera, uh, and so really for someone regionally or internationally to come here and explore something new, to have hyper focus on your, on your startup, but at the same time having opportunities to be entertained, to change atmosphere once in a while, I think it's a great place to be.

Speaker A: I think Busta Rhymes opened this year. Yeah.

Speaker D: Ah, I think Busta Rhyme has been here a couple of times.

Speaker A: It's interesting. It really does give you that balance, like you don't have to leave. Will you be joining in? So we're talking about wrapping right before we start.

Speaker D: Yeah, I might, might sign the contract with us.

Speaker A: How about you, David?

Speaker C: Uh, well, I found out I was coming here two weeks before stepping on the soil and I've been here about two months and it has been such an easy transition. People here are wonderful and it's so easy to get swept up in the energy. Um, I've never founded anything, uh, but I have now had conversations with three or four people that want to start something up with me. And so like the activity is here. It's really enjoyable. Even the way that that business happens is, uh, it's fun. You know, it's not sitting in a boardroom or really stuffy meetings. It's we're going to go sit at the, you know, the hookah lounge and we're going to watch whatever, you know, football game is on and um, kind of talk between tea or whatever. So it's really enjoyable to be here, um, and meet the people and feel the energy of the country. Really.

Speaker B: Yes. I just want to echo that. It's amazing when touching on the ground here, you immediately feel the energy and the energy. And this is, uh, true for both the public sector as well as the private sector. In the public sector, to me, this is kind of, uh, an unseen, this commitment of everybody to contribute to the achievement of the wider vision. Um, this is great. Um, but besides the entertainment opportunities that Banda has already mentioned, obviously what I'm also interested in is a bit of the history and the culture. So I always try to get as much exposure as my job permits while I'm here. So when I have half a day available or something, or over the weekend I try to go to different sites. I've been to Deiriya, I want to go to Alula uh, now and see various other aspects of you know, to, to, to study more and get to know more about the country and the culture which you know is, is new to me somewhat. And um, but with the, with the vision and the commitment behind it, you know, and this being a key uh, you know, global center, uh, in the future, you know, it's everybody's obligation to, to, to study um, the country, the market. You become aware, make friends here with trusting, long lasting relationships. And you asked about this in person cohort. Why would I pack my bags and move from one country to another country, maybe even all across the world from far away? Um, it's this, working together in a cohort with fellow founders who have the same or similar problems, maybe in a slightly different problem setting, different industry, maybe that they try to tackle a different niche or vertical. But usually founders come across similar problems. And what we've noticed in the past 10 years of running accelerator, um, programs and working with founders is that this element of doing it jointly, finding solutions jointly. We have a lot of group sessions as part of uh, the three month accelerator where founders exchange thoughts about blockers they are facing, how to overcome them, helping each other with opportunities and that forges lifelong friendships. Many of the founders consider us as outlier ventures as a co founder to their business because of the intense program we are taking them through. But also the other founders within their cohort, they'll stay friends, they'll start collaborations later. They'll remember the other guys when they think about a particular industry and they pick up the phone and ask, you know, how's it going in this corner of the market? Do you, you know dma, I've seen these in these developments. Let's talk about it. And this gives you an immediate, you know, ecosystem also as a founder, to benefit from friends together with whom you can go onto your journey. And this is a uh, very rewarding journey. And in the future when some of those founders will be running globally relevant businesses in the Web3 space and will be global Web3 champions, they will remember, you know, that it all started here in Riyadh, you know, with the programs that outlier mentors and their fellow friends in the ecosystem here in Riyadh, which is very inclusive, very nice, um, and their fellow co founders that went through the same cohort.

Speaker A: I think there's a layer of family as well. They say the founder's journey is so lonely and that uh, having everyone go through the same thing at the same time and doing these heart to heart sessions, it really makes the journey a lot less lonely. And I feel it in the OV team already. Like I do feel like it's a family ecosystem and I can go out for breakfast, lunch and dinner and spend 20 hours with the team and not feel like I'm bored, which is crucial to have that fuel to keep going. Right. So uh, I think that's a beautiful thing to have definitely. So I think on that note I would like to thank you guys for your very, very valuable insights. I think uh, we're very excited to see and meet the startups, get to see what they're building on ground and for the years to come.

Speaker B: Thank you Salva. Thanks for hosting us.

Speaker A: Of course. Thank you.